Conversations: On groups, Druids, Dungeons, Lock Out

The 'Lock Out' system been a pain point with druid Events and organic grouping in dungeons for a while now. And this convo came up in Discord that I though really hit alot of the points that players are feeling about the Grouping changes and could be used as a conversation starting point. What do YOU think about groups/lock out/Druid events/Dungeon grouping.

I know its a bit of a large talking space for a single thread but they are all intertwined heavily with grouping mechanics itself, so lets just see where it takes us. :)

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Yaffy
So does anyone else dislike the new limitations on groups and the new loot system
I really hate the new loot system for sure
My friends and I keep hoping everyone we meet in dungeons dies so they can't steal our stuff
Rather than us being able to team up on bosses spontaneously

Yaffy
Also I miss 20+ man raids


EasyLivin
steal what stuff?
i dont like the new group size or loot limits, kinda turned me off combat in general


fortior
I get why they did it (tagging along with lame skills to get a bag full of 60/60 epics probably wasn't intended) but it's too much man


Yaffy
Steal boss drops
Like if my group sees another group near a boss then everyone instantly bolts for the boss to try and tag it
I'm also not 100% sure, but I think the tagging system lets groups KS solo players too[COLOR=rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.2)](edited)
Before if you met another player you could gang up on it, which was great especially when fighting bosses too strong for both of you
Now you gotta tag the boss before the other guy does
And if you try to say, make a party with strangers so you can share, that gives them a free chance to tag the boss
It's like prisoner's dilemma
Where you can both get the loot but if the other guy tries to grab it first (Because he's worried you'll try to do the same) then only one person does

EasyLivin
in theory that shouldn't happen in GK


Yaffy
But trying to always steal the loot first is the most rational decision because it always has a good outcome for you


EasyLivin
groups should be far enough away from eachother that they cannot steal bosses

Yaffy
It has the biggest effect in the crypt for sure
Where there's a lot of low level players running around yet there are tough bosses in comparison to the enemies there

EasyLivin
yea. i havent been in there with a low level after the change

Yaffy
That's also where I made the most spontaneous friends too when I started
Where I would be farming spiders but the mega spider was too tough
But then any time you bumped into another player nearby you could silently agree to team up on the mega spider
Which was great
Same with Ursula too[COLOR=rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.2)](edited)


EasyLivin
yea

Yaffy
Most of the time when I bumped into other players in dungeons it was a good thing, so I felt like I was friendly with a lot of players
Now other players are like an obstacle that's there to steal my loot


EasyLivin
i agree
druid events are terrible


Yaffy
That's my biggest gripe with the whole thing
Oh yeah, Druid events are AWFUL
Especially the Kraken one where you have to be ranged


fortior
druid events suck now. they both nerfed the dropped loot and the looting system


EasyLivin
yep


Yaffy
Or else like half of the krakens you try to tag in the water get yoinked from you by ranged characters


fortior
If they're supposed to suck, okay. But just make them free-loot so I don't have to rush and tag a mob before killing it

Yaffy
I was the tank for my party and was purely melee
But I kept getting ks'd by ranged dudes who could shoot the Krakens in the water while I had to awkwardly swim to them
It was really annoying


fortior
I don't see why bosses can't be free-loot with better loot for the killing party or something, or some sort of rule that if you do 10% of the damage you're included in the looting group


Yaffy
So now I have to run something ranged just to prevent myself from getting ks'd

fortior
This tagging system sucks


Yaffy
I've found the best strategy for stuff like Krakens or Droaches is to run around with tons of movement speed buffs


Yaffy
And spam ranged AoEs just to tag everything
Then worry about the consequences later
Even if you die you'll get something
But of course that'll piss of everyone else

fortior
I just kill one and then go do something else for a while, there's always parties running around tagging and killing everything anyway
Maybe it's selfish but it's what the current system supports. The party GUI isn't nearly good enough for even overworld events to be constrained to the tagging rule


Yaffy
The tagging system is definitely selfish
For stuff like normal mobs it's ok (In fact it's more generous than other games since you can still get exp)
But for bosses or elite mobs people should definitely be able to all get loot
Like, I'm guessing the point of the tagging system is to... prevent too many people from getting items? Or is it to prevent people from getting freebies in fights they didn't even really help in?

fortior
yeah some sort of damage threshold maybe, like at least 5 or 10% damage done


Yaffy
Or maybe it's to try and limit people to parties of 6 to make things easier to balance


fortior
I think it's to prevent manticores and all being a huge item pinata
people used to bring alts to manticores to get more loot


Yaffy
I definitely think some sort of effort based loot reward system would be better
It probably shouldn't just be DPS just because that would be annoying to heavy healers/support
They can probably use the aggro system minus influence from taunt bonuses
...Although to be honest I still don't really understand exactly how aggro works in this game
Although mind you purely going off of aggro has problems too
My build has always been around pound to slag so I can do a huge burst AoE damage at the start of fights
It would be unfair if people were denied loot just because someone can insta kill mobs
It could be time based then maybe
Where as long as you were in combat for more than 20% of the fight then you get loot
So some guy doesn't run in at the end while the boss has 5hp and get everything
I'm pretty sure there's already some sort of anti-feeding mechanic in place anyways
Because I was helping my low level friends with bosses in the crypt
And the bosses would always lock on to the lowest level friend, even when I had like 250% taunt bonus and was obviously doing more damage
We've actually taken advantage of it sometimes
Where we get the weakest friend to just sit on top of a cliff where enemies can't hit him and then everyone else hits the enemies in the back until they die
Since they absolutely refuse to stop trying to kill the squishiest party member
It's funny more than anything


fortior
"So some guy doesn't run in at the end while the boss has 5hp and get everything" I mean, backspawns take care of that IMO, and should they really gimp normal players' experience just to prevent the leechiest leeches
You can feed people items anyway by just inviting them to party now. Hell, party members don't have to do anything to get loot, so it's even easier


Yaffy
Yeah, I agree
But I'm just guessing that might have been what they were going for


fortior
They should just have gibbed the alts of people bringing alts to manticores instead of coming up with this, haha



Yaffy
Should have given manticores an AoE attack
That cleans up the blatantly low level players pretty well
Or are you talking about logging in with alts and looting the bodies before they despawn
Without even entering combat

fortior
That's what people did


Yaffy
Yeah, sounds about right
I miss the days of having like 20 level 40-50 people running through lab
Those were so fun
And a good way to bring a community together


fortior
Yeah it was cool

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PS: This is a conversation for all of us, so lets all get along eh? We all just want to have fun.

Edit: the text color hold no significance to relevancy/highlighting, its just the color scheme that the text already was when I copied it

I will say, the nights I've tried, I haven't had a level-appropriate dungeon run. I get stone silence; they always want someone higher level to jump in last and save them.

I really don't like the locking system. If a group doesn't attack something, it should go to the old rules; solos and spread out groups shouldn't be able to snag all the loot :P

My best run so far was with someone who was tired of transmuting for coin so I literally got access to the loot because they were there. Otherwise I'd be shut out.

Druid events are broken as far as I'm concerned, Can't get a group normally, can solo some but have to race around trying to snag something for loot that's useless and worth maybe 500 coins it's not worth the effort so I seldom do them now. I'll just do what I'm doing and suffer the exp loss.

I dislike the smaller groups it promotes elitism and cuts out the weaker/newer/unguilded players. I can see that a more tactical approach to the dungeons would perhaps be better than the 10 man mob handed approach but I still struggle with it.
When I am on I don't see anyone trying to get groups for nexus,DC or even lab are they even run anymore?

There are still other things I find more off putting though, the current 2 skill gear is a nightmare for someone who has most skills in there 60's and likes to mix up the classes often.I just can't face getting my head around the storage and amount of gear farming required so simply mess around aimlessly half the time now. Still miss using belts to farm for gear for the skills I'd be playing next also to be honest.

I normally play solo, where I'd normally run around killing what was in my way and not caring too much, now I find I need to be more careful as it seems my actions can impact other players more as any AOE attack can easily cause them a little grief.

I play lots of games and its strange that even with its current issues and all the development that has negatively impacted my enjoyment, I still keep coming back and still enjoy my time here very much, whilst all other titles gather dust and seldom see a revisit.

Yeah, I think the current system promotes selfish play instead of rewarding group tactics. I could understand implementing it in cutting-edge content like the highest-level dungeon at any given time, but it really shouldn't exist in mid-level content (and overworld content) because all that does is hinder everyone's progression/gameplay while maybe possibly stopping a few bad apples from leeching gear with alts or something.

I think a system that allows you to participate in a group's looting by doing 5-10% total damage would make more sense, or just making elites free-loot in all areas bar the highest 1 or 2. Yeah, I agree that it shouldn't be easy to tag along with much higher level players and get what they 'worked for', but right now the system is basically telling you to play like a jerk or not get any loot at all. Previously, if I saw someone in need of help I'd help them out. Now, the system screws you over with regards to loot - it's essentially telling you to let the other player die in this example.

I know I'm a minority but I like the group limiting and locking. The reasons

1. No more zergs! (sorry but yay!). The worst experiences I had in P:G in the way of grouping was Lab runs with 10+ people. It's boring boring and boring(also an fps killer and pretty please particle effects disabling option). Also boring.
2. More strategy involved and more accent on group roles. More thought put into individual builds.
3.It eliminates (not entirely) leeching

"I dislike the smaller groups it promotes elitism and cuts out the weaker/newer/unguilded players". I disagree, I am usually in a group that adds whoever happens to be around. I agree that it discourages lower level players from being carried through a higher level dungeon but that is actually a good thing imho *cough cough* leeching.

About what others mentioned, this system being okay for GK but not good for mid level content. Let's not pretend anyone actually does the mid level content in groups. I constantly farm various things in lower level dungeons (like wolf cave, hand dungeon, DC). Absolutely no groups run nexus, DC, wolf cave or Kur tower. It's full of people soloing which is a shame because they could group for bosses and elites and I don't mean a group of lvl 25-35 being carried by a 70. I mean groups of level 45ish players properly running a dungeon and learning how to play in a group and figuring out their builds while doing so. Honest question-when did anyone run DC in a group besides full moon? I bet very few though many players in the 40s level bracket seem to be complaining about the lack of gear options. There's where gear drops and it can't be done solo.

Druid events- no comment here, I hated them from the start and that hasn't changed:) Not gonna repeat the whole lot of arguments but I always thought they were just a loot fest and very limiting level-wise. I would've liked druid events that actually involved some degree of individual effort.

Something else someone mentioned in that discord convo-alts at manticores. I noticed some people multiboxing or leveling their afk friends in dungeons (yeah, I reported but still) not only at manticores. I even saw the peak of laziness, keeping a music bot at a dungeon's entrance, I saw people running 2-3 chars at GK entrance. I think we should stop doing that and actually try to play in groups. That is with real players other than ourselves. Call me insane but I think that's the concept behind an MMO. We have soloing options now, let's keep multiple characters out of groups. If all 6 group members are actual players running a level appropriate dungeon a group of 6 is just fine. Yes, it excludes lower level players who are there just for loot or exp but again, I think that's a positive.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

I know I'm a minority but I like the group limiting and locking. The reasons

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No, there's clearly good things and bad.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

About what others mentioned, this system being okay for GK but not good for mid level content. Let's not pretend anyone actually does the mid level content in groups. I constantly farm various things in lower level dungeons (like wolf cave, hand dungeon, DC). Absolutely no groups run nexus, DC, wolf cave or Kur tower. It's full of people soloing which is a shame because they could group for bosses and elites

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

I mean groups of level 45ish players properly running a dungeon and learning how to play in a group and figuring out their builds while doing so.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

many players in the 40s level bracket seem to be complaining about the lack of gear options. There's where gear drops and it can't be done solo.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

1. No more zergs! (sorry but yay!). The worst experiences I had in P:G in the way of grouping was Lab runs with 10+ people.

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Labs was a top-level dungeon. Have you tried to at-level a dungeon recently? We don't have a system of Looking For Group or any way for groups to care to even check.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

2. More strategy involved and more accent on group roles. More thought put into individual builds.

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...More chances for your build not to be useful to a particular group. There's no way for me to tell people my stun/resiliency build is useful unless they're used to playing that way.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

3.It eliminates (not entirely) leeching

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...Why was this important? It eliminates groups helping filed groups clear curses, too.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

"I dislike the smaller groups it promotes elitism and cuts out the weaker/newer/unguilded players". I disagree, I am usually in a group that adds whoever happens to be around.

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You're great! But you're not trying to level through 40s now. So your second point...

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

I agree that it discourages lower level players from being carried through a higher level dungeon but that is actually a good thing imho *cough cough* leeching.

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...But how does it not encourage this? Now it's more important to have over-leveled players in your group. Before you could muddle through with a couple under-leveled. Now a single over-leveled player is more important.

You are missing my points entirely Crissa. To make it short and simple-I believe 6 players of adequate level are perfectly able to run dungeons. Where I see a problem is people saying it's not without actually testing, it's false feedback. Maybe not intentionally false but arguments like "it encourages elitism, it excludes lower level players" are not arguments that should impact the game mechanics. I get that everyone wants to help friends/guildies or level some alts but a game shouldn't modify its design to suit that imho.

Try running Kur tower with a group of 6 people in the 46-50s bracket, DC with a group of 48-55 and offer accurate feedback. If you prove that a group of 6 is insufficient I'm sure Citan would take that into consideration.

"...More chances for your build not to be useful to a particular group. There's no way for me to tell people my stun/resiliency build is useful unless they're used to playing that way" I fail to see any logic in it, used to what? Having cc in group? Wiping few times because of not including players with utility builds is the best way to learn, you are making my point for me. Yes, everyone wipes many times, it's part of the learning curve, grouping doesn't equal "follow X level 70 player and loot".

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druid events are terrible

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because of the lockouts. before lockouts they were ok, could use work. now with lockouts they are creating a toxic environment and it isnt fun.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

You are missing my points entirely Crissa.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

Try running Kur tower with a group of 6 people in the...

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

...grouping doesn't equal "follow X level 70 player and loot".

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Did you read your point? You just said it's riskier to run a balanced group. so they're not trying.

When a group gets into trouble, it's not, 'hey, we need to fix things ourselves or our level' it's 'let's call a 70 for fix things'. That means they don't, in fact, learn the lessons you're trying to teach them. They learn they'll out-level the content eventually and it won't matter for them to learn.

And those of us looking to group just are ignored.

Okay sorry, had this crazy idea about looting so not sure if it would help anything but, here goes.
What if in big group events, to get loot you got to replace it with alternate loot. You got the lock on the Desert Overseer or Druid Event Droach. You (Your group) got first dibs on the loot, but to get your individual loot you each got to add something to the mob, that something(s) has to be worth say, half of the value of the given loot being taken. (Maybe how much is required to put in is based on what % of damage you didn't do) That continues for each individual, group in line to get loot. Maybe it even reverts back so anyone could loot the corpse, but you would be getting the items left behind. The order of looting maybe determined by damage or aggro, after the lock group gets theirs. Maybe an option to pay in councils, or make up the difference so you can quickly get your loot if you want. This prevents powerful gear from become easily looted by non-damagers, tag-alongs.

To make things speedy, wondering if some sort of claim ticket system could be added to the above setup. So instead of having to decide right that second what to give up in alt loot, you kind of leave an IOU and the person holding the IOU gets something when you got time to decide. If you don't make a decision by a certain point, then maybe it would pull from your councils or from future loots, maybe even working it way to zero from loots, skins and meat and foraging items as you get them.

I'm sure there are things I'm overlooking that would need to be addressed. But why not be creative, when trying to address these issues?

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Originally Posted by ShieldBreaker

Okay sorry, had this crazy idea about looting...

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I'm not entirely clear what your suggestions are, but I think you're suggesting a mix of loot-generating points? So mobs would have loot that would spawn for the first group, for the most damage, for some damage, for some aggro... Some crazy mix of things. And based upon which lists you were on would be what loot was visible to you?

That's a pretty cool idea. The bosses already have different slots of loot they generate; signature items, gear slots, mob type slots... And we have had keys before to exchange for loot.

Your idea kinda is worthy of its own post. Maybe break the ideas into segments so it's more easily readable?

Anyhow, I'm glad people are thinking of this stuff.

Just a couple thoughts.

First, zerging through dungeons/content was never intended and without instances it has to be controlled in other ways.

Second, I know people are playing as if Project: Gorgon is a released title. I.E running dungeons with Op players. It would be much more helpful for testers to run dungeons with level appropriate players to help provide feedback.

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Originally Posted by Silvonis

Just a couple thoughts.

First, zerging through dungeons/content was never intended and without instances it has to be controlled in other ways.

Second, I know people are playing as if Project: Gorgon is a released title. I.E running dungeons with Op players. It would be much more helpful for testers to run dungeons with level appropriate players to help provide feedback.

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1) Ofcourse not, I don't think anyone offering genuine feedback really thought that zerging would last forever. Just pointing out that the current game systems (druid events, groups locking, dungeon groups, ect.) are fighting each other in what they want to accomplish and could use some thought. Is it a game breaker and need intimidate change? No, not at the moment, but it is causing player friction and really wants that.

To expand on what I think: I don't mind that groups can tag dungeon mobs and they get locked to that group, it prevents many cases of player griefing and supports/encourages players to group up to do more difficult content. It can occasionally be a problem when more than 1 group tries to do the same content, but that is a 'amount of content' issue. This is mostly solved once players go beyond Serbule as the dungeons are large 'enough' that 2 groups (and more in most) can coexist without too much shoulder jostling.

This would bring us to what I see to be the biggest clash between two systems: druid events vs group locking mechanics. One one hand we have an event that encourages (pretty much tells you tbh) go here and help each other kill these things, or else. But on the hand, participating in these events seems to be a atrocious affair as you have alot of players running everywhere tagging things, intentional or not, with AOE or otherwise, it's just.. chaotic. It's a good event vibe, with giving a nice feeling to 'o crap nature is calling' but all these mobs are tagged so participants are being deprived of perceived rewards. So, somehow need to clarify what rewards ppl should expect from participating in events with mobs. My suggestion would be to lower the value of individual mob loot drop, to almost nothing give or take maybe a hidden gem somewhere to keep it interesting, and increase the value to people that participate. The lesser loot means the single mobs don't matter as much, the end result is what matters. Not that someone didn't get loot, cause there is no loot to be had, relatively. (I stay away from suggesting doing away with loot lock for the event as I don't know how that would play with every other mob having it and the hoops that would need to be jumped to get that to work)


2) Yes, and this is why you don't really find me doing dungeons unless I need something that is there. :) Just using abilities and armor of lower levels helps i suppose but after a point with bonuses from other skills it kinda throws everything sideways.

My point is that by flat locking groups to a 'number of players' it doesn't, in fact, encourage players to recruit people of the appropriate level: It does the opposite, encourages them to recruit the most powerful person to fit in that slot.

What we need is something to make the at-level character somehow a reasonable swap with an over-leveled character.

I'd suggest that we limit the level of abilities used in dungeons either as a pastiche of abilities or a limiting effect. Just like when you're leveling up a lower level combat ability, but have the dungeons or content do it for your. So you enter a level 30 dungeon, and you're limited to level 30 or below abilities. It could downgrade the buttons automatically to their lower level. That way you don't really have a big benefit of having an over-leveled character in a dungeon.

Some gear abilities would also have to downgrade, but since everything has higher and lower levels, that is plausible...

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Originally Posted by Crissa

My point is that by flat locking groups to a 'number of players' it doesn't, in fact, encourage players to recruit people of the appropriate level: It does the opposite, encourages them to recruit the most powerful person to fit in that slot.

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That is an unlikely scenario unless applied to True Form Khyrulek or Lomas (or whatever his name is, the ice magic boss). Groups wanting more members for wolf cave for example will not find anyone even 60 wanting to join. It doesn't encourage groups to "recruit the most powerful person"...simply because this OP player will not have any interest in running a low level dungeon.

Also from what everyone is saying the main problem is a conflict between the lock mechanic and the druid events. Druid events are not a significant part of the server activity though. So maybe revisit an older suggestion, reward participation with Dreva blessings only. Or remove the current form of druid events, that works too:P

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

It doesn't encourage groups to "recruit the most powerful person"...simply because this OP player will not have any interest in running a low level dungeon.

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I'm sorry, Khay, you're cool and all, but that argument stinks.

You have at-level people saying they can't get invites to groups because groups are looking for someone over-leveled.

You have at-level people saying they can't get loot because over-leveled people are farming the dungeons.

And your argument is that over-leveled people won't be interested?

How does that affect these observations? How does that even begin to touch the argument that set-number groups encourage groups to invite the most powerful person they can get?

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Originally Posted by Crissa

I'm sorry, Khay, you're cool and all, but that argument stinks.

You have at-level people saying they can't get invites to groups because groups are looking for someone over-leveled.

You have at-level people saying they can't get loot because over-leveled people are farming the dungeons.

And your argument is that over-leveled people won't be interested?

How does that affect these observations? How does that even begin to touch the argument that set-number groups encourage groups to invite the most powerful person they can get?

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Groups looking for someone over leveled does NOT mean the over leveled players will join.

Yes, high level people sometimes solo farm but again, my observations are based on experience (You assumed I don't know how it is to level through 40s but I so happen to be leveling BC on a char right now and she is level 39). Every time I level a new combat skill I go to DC and guess what?! There's nobody there, not a single soul, not to mention groups. Stop the crazy arguments please and let's offer honest feedback>many lower levels want to get to max level fast and they prefer solo farming or joining high level groups. Until recently that was possible. Why? Because a group had 10 slots so we'd have 4-6 high level players for Lab or manticores and we'd add some lower levels to help them get gear. Now there's no room for the lower levels in group, group members have to be of appropriate level and have at least 1 ress and endurance matching their combat skills levels.

I am max level "OP" and I can guarantee you that I would not join a group for any low level dungeon unless I'm helping with ice magic or necromancy (which I probably shouldn't because they are intentionally harder to get). I have NO MOTIVATION to join a group for any dungeon under Lab level.



edit-solo farming dungeons has to be somehow discouraged, I saw griefing happening in Kur tower (one high level mage AoEs everything and there's no room for anyone else). The only dungeons I see as a problem though are crypt and Kur Tower (both first level, nobody seems to be at second level). And it's more of an issue because some players are being dickish, not the game mechanic itself.

The health of the game can be seen in the vendors npc, since the lock mechanism/group reduction there's been a steady decline on the variety being available to purchase, coincidence but it seems like the game population has decreased. Lower level being cast out of high level dungeons it's a normal occurrence this sets a chain reaction that's hurting this game because people going to quit after failed attempts to participate at getting better equipment to improve inventory to keep up with the leveling curve. What we need is a system that has ability to change the numbers for the dungeon let's say 6 lv 70, 5 lv 70 2 lv 60, you can fluctuate a group from 6-10 people based on their level.
Before you had lower levels "leeching" now the lower levels are being outcast.

i think it's important, when discussing any of these pertinent issues, that solutions have to be geared towards larger populations. the game doesnt have a large player base now, but i would anticipate huge leaps in population when the game goes public and early access. this in turn leads to the eternal quandry: keeping the game alive and vivid for new players, while at the same time improving/adding content (as well as fixing long-standing bugs & system issues) for the veteran player,..

it has also been my experience that dungeon play so far still accommodates newer players grouping to tackle difficult content, while at the same both general and guild both seem to be very willing to have older players running younger players thru dungeons for curse-removal and tagging specific skills (like necromancy)

not sure i had any point to this other than my two cents :)

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Originally Posted by Dragone

The health of the game can be seen in the vendors npc, since the lock mechanism/group reduction there's been a steady decline on the variety being available to purchase, coincidence but it seems like the game population has decreased. Lower level being cast out of high level dungeons it's a normal occurrence this sets a chain reaction that's hurting this game because people going to quit after failed attempts to participate at getting better equipment to improve inventory to keep up with the leveling curve. What we need is a system that has ability to change the numbers for the dungeon let's say 6 lv 70, 5 lv 70 2 lv 60, you can fluctuate a group from 6-10 people based on their level.
Before you had lower levels "leeching" now the lower levels are being outcast.

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The point is newer players CAN get better equipment but this game is not geared towards fast track. This is why I didn't like druid event mobs, once people get used to gear falling out of the sky in their lap it's very hard to get used to NOT having that.
Everyone keeps mentioning high level players. I'm kinda slow to level things so it took me 3 years, it took others 6 months to a year to accomplish the same things, it just has to be done via hard work, leveling non-combat skills. And that takes time. A new player can be level 40 in combat skills in 2 days if they ignore everything else. Again, speaking from experience, I helped enough players get started to know: many focus exclusively on combat skills and end up with level 33 gear at level 55, w/o favor with vendors and w/o basic things like food. Because they only get gear via combat and skip even the content that could bring them that gear. Why don't lvl 45 people run DC? I'm no expert but pretty sure Sedge's sword is still a very desirable item that is perfectly adequate for lab.
Lower levels being "cast out" of high level dungeons is normal, I don't expect to be running wolf cave at level 30, do you? I don't understand the chain reaction argument, if people can't adapt to changes in alpha then the grinding involved is not their cup of tea. Cause this is a grindy game, not in the boring way but it is.\
There's no need to scale groups according to dungeons, a group of 6 lvl 20ish is perfectly able to down the megaspider or Ursula.

The truth is that until now people leveled solo till 50 at least then they were joining mants or Lab groups to get gear. Because of the new system that's no longer an option and people simply can't/don't want to adapt to it. I find hard to adapt to things that happened a year ago (like the belts determining the drops mods - someone already mentioned it|) but I either stop playing or adapt. I do recommend leatherworking and carpentry for gear, it's much better in most cases than dungeon drops.

The truth is that they grouped for bosses, and now if you're not in a pre-arranged group, you're not going to be invited.

You're going to be told that they want someone better. And despite Khay's argument there are over-leveled players in lower level dungeons.

Any time you have a group limited by player numbers, that group will optimize to have the best players available. Players available will often include over-leveled - because you have over-leveled players in Guilds, as friends, needing some random drop in the dungeon, or just need cash.

Over-leveled players may not want to go to lower level dungeons, but they do that to solo already.

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Originally Posted by Crissa

I can solo anywhere but the bosses in the Goblin dungeon. And despite that I can hear that there are solos and groups attacking bosses in that dungeon, I didn't get an invite until I realized I couldn't even damage The Fog and said so on Global and someone took pity on me. Someone over-leveled who was farming, solo'd The Fog for me and let me follow them around. An experience that has been repeated time and again in pretty much every dungeon lately.

I haven't had an at-level group since the locking was added.

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Motivations:
Friend needs to level
Pity
Need to farm cash solo anyhow
Someone in Guild needs help
Leveling Guild members
Leveling Friends
Boredom
Need a random drop from that dungeon anyhow
It's kinda bad-ass to solo bosses

'No motivation for Khay' ≠ 'no motivations exist'.

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Originally Posted by Crissa

The truth is that they grouped for bosses, and now if you're not in a pre-arranged group, you're not going to be invited.

You're going to be told that they want someone better. And despite Khay's argument there are over-leveled players in lower level dungeons.

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Did I say there weren't?! There's no sense in having a conversation if you're not actually reading what other people say...for the last time (and i do hate typing the same thing 3 times) I said HIGH LEVEL PLAYERS HAVE NO INCENTIVE/MOTIVATION TO JOIN A LOW LEVEL GROUP. Ofc they can SOLO but that's not what I keep typing, is it?
I thought we were talking about group members limit and loot lock anyway?...

No offense meant but you've been around a while, how can you not solo the Fog? :confused:

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Originally Posted by FURY

PS: This is a conversation for all of us, so lets all get along eh? We all just want to have fun.

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Originally Posted by Crissa

'No motivation for Khay' ≠ 'no motivations exist'.

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Did I say there weren't?! There's no sense in having a conversation if you're not actually reading what other people say...for the last time (and i do hate typing the same thing 3 times) I said HIGH LEVEL PLAYERS HAVE NO INCENTIVE/MOTIVATION TO JOIN A LOW LEVEL GROUP. Ofc they can SOLO but that's not what I keep typing, is it?
I thought we were talking about group members limit and loot lock anyway?...


No offense meant but you've been around a while, how can you not solo the Fog?

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If you two are quite done having a shouting match ANDderailing the thread, we can have some constructive conversation, hm?


now...

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Originally Posted by takatoka

i think it's important, when discussing any of these pertinent issues, that solutions have to be geared towards larger populations. the game doesnt have a large player base now, but i would anticipate huge leaps in population when the game goes public and early access. this in turn leads to the eternal quandry: keeping the game alive and vivid for new players, while at the same time improving/adding content (as well as fixing long-standing bugs & system issues) for the veteran player,..


it has also been my experience that dungeon play so far still accommodates newer players grouping to tackle difficult content, while at the same both general and guild both seem to be very willing to have older players running younger players thru dungeons for curse-removal and tagging specific skills (like necromancy)


not sure i had any point to this other than my two cents

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I agree that any changes should consider a population boom in the near future (hopefully), which adds complexities. We can't know for sure how the game will react to +1000 players simply because we have never had that amount playing at once. Hopefully we can see something that will give grouping meaning while also keeping them from causing problems for groups in the same zone.

What would you suggest to help? I think a better/faster release on locked mobs could help (as soon as a player isnt in combat the mob loses the lock) so that would prevent drive by locking with AOE skills, but there are quite a few other things that could be addresses aswell. Never hurts to offer suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

No offense meant but you've been around a while, how can you not solo the Fog? :confused:

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Apparently it's fairly resistant to bludgeoning. And Psychology doesn't actually do enough damage to take down an elite. Who would've thunk? Also, my combat skills are only 40-ish. Which is why I've replied to this thread repeatedly of my experience grouping lately.

One thing we don't have that other games do have is a system for finding groups or groups finding extras. The best we can do is shout it in Global, which works for small numbers of players, but isn't really optimal. Perhaps some sort of sorting system where we could join in on different groups and dungeons from afar? Like, I'm looking to do level 40 fighting, I could flag some dungeons or elites in a system where others could see that I was looking for that? Maybe with a timer? Or a recipe, since we do everything with recipes...

Basically, we need our version of a dating program so that we can advertise (hopefully on by default) what we'd like to be doing, so others can see that there are six people who want to do said dungeon and easily talk to them so that a group can form? Or so a group can find a fifth or sixth?

Just shouting on Global 'Hey, I'd like to fight something in the 40-50 range' gets me nada, and I don't even care where I go other than it's something to do.

That groups currently look for over-leveled people rather than at-level people is its own problem.

I'm not derailing the thread, we are talking about loot locking and groups being limited at 6 people. My point is that 6 people is adequate in my opinion, opinion which is based on actually running dungeons (I did a lot of nexus, DC and wolf cave when I was leveling). We could have a LFG channel or a board. We can always create a LFG channel and advertise it on Global, I don't know why people don't use that feature. We made a druid channel when druid events were added and no1 is using it, I'm constantly the only user in that chat room.

Loot locking-without it we'd have 21 people running dungeons together again so-although primitive-I think that is a necessary game mechanic. It could be limited at elites and bosses/named mobs though, having that applied to pigs around serbule feels unnecessary.

I'm more of a solo oriented player myself but I think it's important to actually experience grouping at all lvl brackets before deeming a game mechanic unsuitable. From what I can see the main complaint is that people are unable to find groups not that the groups have insufficient members so we are discussing the wrong point. Based on experience I know that Nexus can be run in trio by lvl 45-50 players with decent gear.

I don't really like victim mentality so my suggestion is to look inwards to find the reasons why we can't get groups. Not being on a high horse but any guildies or friends can confirm that I don't join groups unless I feel that I am useful and not being carried. With that out of the way, let's try to look at what would help people find groups:

1. The lack of a dedicated channel/board. Let's make one. Also there's a discord server Fury keeps advertising that could serve that purpose if people were using it.
2. The "same level" argument. This is not actually a valid argument. Two players could be the same level in combat skills but in way different leagues otherwise. Why? Because the newer players oftentimes completely ignore the "passive" skills that bring bonus levels to the combat skills. Some abilities can only be learnt at certain levels. What I mean by that-let's say 2 people are theoretically both level 60 in a combat skill-one has 7 bonus levels the other one has not. The first one would have higher tiers of the combat abilities so even if they theoretically are the same level they're practically not. So combat skill level is definitely NOT the only criteria for "usefulness"
3.Endurance and first aid-people tend to ignore these. Obviously someone who is level 40 combat skill with level 25 endurance will be less useful than someone with level 40 endurance so I would work on that. The same with first aid, being able to ress or threw an amazing healing kit on the tank while they're tanking a boss is essential for group play. No ress=the group members will end up looking at you as a liability only because the long cds make it unfeasible to have players with no ress skill in a higher level dungeon. If people don't have that skill, the group has to oftentimes abandon the run
4.Consumables and buffs-players joining a Lab run w/o food on. They die in 2 AoEs then the rest of the group has to waste resses and diamonds on them only because they refused to level cooking/refused to buy consumables (or got really low level ones in a level 60 dungeon because low gourmand).
5.Character improvement. Although many disagree this game cannot be played doing exclusively combat. And I believe people with that playstyle are the most vocal ones when it comes to "I can't get gear cause I can't find groups". Again, skills like leatherworking, carpentry or even toolcrafting can be leveled in the same time as the combat skill. Some even give bonus points to combat skills on top of crafting the gear you need. There's also few options to barter for gear, running dungeons is not the only way to get gear. It's actually the hardest way to get said gear. How many people let's say in the 30s or 40s brackets actually wear gear that they crafted themselves? Not being in crypt web gear helps when trying to join a goblin dungeon run, you can't blame people for not wanting to add a player who is wearing level 10 gear and they prefer one in level 25 gear.
6.Solo adequate builds in groups. Many focus their builds on solo play (which is normal) but sometimes we have to modify those builds in order to fit in a group. Simple things like dropping a wide range AoE in a crowded dungeon because that can get the group wiped (for example i forgot i had modded range for fire breath and woke up a mesmerized Claudia which could've been a disaster for the group). Be mindful of the group needs, try to have something useful in your build, mass cc, knockback, heal etc. If you know how to play your build in a group you will be invited to groups.
7. The social aspect-nobody likes a player who looks for group in the following terms "Fk this game, nobody wants me, how am I supposed to get gear if you guys don't let me join Lab??" or "Why are you taking these noobs with us?" when they join a group. Yes, that happened:) If you're a nice person chances are you will find people to help you out and overlook your lower skills. But the fact that this community is in general nicer than in other MMOs doesn't mean anyone is entitled to help. For example if anyone asks "Can someone please help me get rid of this curse?" I will go and help if I can but if the line is "no high level is willing to help me??" I will ignore the request.:)

Anyways maybe someone finds these useful, it took a while to type. It's not "teaching" a lesson as it is based on observation and experience. Many players have action MMO experience and find it hard to understand the grouping experience in a more in-depth, non-combat focused game.

edit-please don't pick snippets of my comments and start a detailed explanation about why that's wrong and all that negative bullpoop. All the stuff that I wrote comes from playing experience and if anyone finds it too hard/too long to read that's fine but if you want to take the time to read it, try to take some on board, it does concern grouping and i meant for it to be useful. Imho it's not the game mechanic that needs changing, it's our mentality as testers. If you want something changed offer some valid reasons on why. How does this negatively impact the game experience type of argument...did anyone run X dungeon with 6 people and couldn't do it? Did any groups get in conflict near a boss because of the locking system? That kind of argument:)

Druid Event Idea:
During Druid event, all druids are automatically placed in the same group once they enter the zone, no need to shout out for a group
Make mobs a little tougher requiring at least a few druids to kill, using some type of druid skill (Like Imari mobs require rotskin)
Remove loot from the attacking mobs during druid events
Reward druids based on damage done per kill
After the druid event, players return to the Druid alter for random rewards based on #of kills/damage done (Gold Ore/Copper Ore/Phlog etc...)

Dungeon runs
I think guilds should have an option to increase group size to 10 or 12.
Our guild likes to run quests together and we have a large crew of high end players, we quickly fill the 6 slots for dungeons and leaves us saying sorry folks 6/6 already
Even a guild Zerg option if available. Can always place minimum level requirements on the few dungeons that this impacts

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Originally Posted by Elkhound

Druid Event Idea:
During Druid event, all druids are automatically placed in the same group once they enter the zone, no need to shout out for a group
Make mobs a little tougher requiring at least a few druids to kill, using some type of druid skill (Like Imari mobs require rotskin)
Remove loot from the attacking mobs during druid events

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I'd add rewards only with blessings but not based on damage, some have healing builds or less dps oriented builds. Joining all druids in that area in a druid alliance is a great idea though, i wonder if that's hard to implement. It could have downsides like "I'm gonna do some gardening while you guys kill droaches" so the idea probably needs some tweaking (some sort of tagging a mob or being in range at least)


I don't like the guild zerg idea although we are in the same situation. We don't have to have 4x6 people running together, we can do different wings of GK for example or give a headstart to the other groups (a 10 minutes or such in order to get a full respawn). Otherwise it pretty much means one group ends up carrying the rest which gets us back to the zergs the dev tried to remove by implementing these changes.

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Originally Posted by Crissa

Just shouting on Global 'Hey, I'd like to fight something in the 40-50 range' gets me nada, and I don't even care where I go other than it's something to do.

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I wonder if one of the problems is the level range. In my MMO experience, there's usually a big clump of players at max level and a small clump of players in the newbie range, and pretty much nobody in between. So, you not only have to find players willing to group, you have to find players at the right level willing to group. I don't think that's something that's going to be fixed by throwing more population at the server either - after the first couple months of everyone leveling up, you are still going to end up with the same level distribution.

I don't really have any good fixes for the level problem, just some fuzzy idea about voluntary level scaling... It seems a shame that there are all these pretty mid-level zones around that get almost no traffic because most people outlevel them too quickly.

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Originally Posted by Tagamogi

It seems a shame that there are all these pretty mid-level zones around that get almost no traffic because most people outlevel them too quickly.

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That's why i keep babbling about not focusing on combat only and level some crafts in parallel, it's not a race and it's really not important to be 70/70 in only combat skills. Not to say my way is better but tbh when the cap lvl was raised to 70 i leveled leatherworking, endurance and carpentry before i unlocked any combat skills. I crafted gear first then proceeded to level combat to 70. It's much easier to find groups that way when you're not that desperate for gear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tagamogi

So, you not only have to find players willing to group, you have to find players at the right level willing to group.

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Well, I can hear other players in zone. So the players exist. I was thinking maybe like a /who command that lists groups or makes it easier to group and ungroup in zones or level bands.

I've always been able to find someone farming willing to let me cover their backs. The problem is finding and talking to that player. Maybe one in five that I run into don't want to group - but they're not usually listening to Global and Nearby is super-noisy so unless I'm on screen, they rarely hear me. I know I have the same problem when I've been told someone heard me in the dungeon then tried to find me.

Some sort of level scaling would be pretty awesome, too. It would preserve the challenge of dungeons - but might also make it harder for lopsided groups to form. If you're forced down to a level, then you won't be more efficient in a lower-level dungeon, so you will be even less inclined to be there.

I was thinking maybe a group could be 6*skill levels and then level people down as they're added. So if you grab that slightly under-leveled person in the group, it wouldn't hurt, but someone over-leveled wouldn't help as much. Hmm.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

That's why i keep babbling about not focusing on combat only and level some crafts in parallel, it's not a race and it's really not important to be 70/70 in only combat skills. Not to say my way is better but tbh when the cap lvl was raised to 70 i leveled leatherworking, endurance and carpentry before i unlocked any combat skills. I crafted gear first then proceeded to level combat to 70. It's much easier to find groups that way when you're not that desperate for gear.

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Yes, but even leveling your way, you are now 70 and therefore not available to group with Crissa if you want a group that's going to be equally challenging and rewarding for both of you. I'd also guess that even when leveling slowly, you probably only did each midlevel dungeon a couple times or so, while you've done many, many more Lab or Gazluk Keep runs.

As I said, I don't really have any good solutions. I just think that players who aren't max-level yet are going to have some additional problems getting groups.

No, I wouldn't take a level 40 through GK (I don't go there with any skill under 60+ either, it's suicidal and I slow down the group i'm in) but I was low level once too:) I didn't skip to Lab and GK, I ran a LOT of nexus and wolf cave. We were capped to 50 for years and we didn't have the 50+option so did use the lower level dungeons a lot. All I'm suggesting is people leveling should do the same and not be in a rush to jump to max level in combat skills because they simply will be fairly useless to a group if that's all they focus on. And from what I understand the issue is not the group size but finding a group.

To help with grouping there are several things that could be done.

. Like Khaylara mentioned, it makes sense to optimize gear for soloing, but your odds of being invited are higher if you can also bring some synergy to the group (like all the group abilities such as mentalism waves). To help with this, we could have a part of the inventory dedicated to gear, say 12 slots, and since you can only equip 9 slots at a time we could permanently keep extra gear for group efficiency.

. Finding a group when soloing, and finding more people when two or three players have started a group is better done with dedicated tools and interfaces than just the global or help chat. I guess we can expect something to appear during the alpha stage.

. There is currently no way to tell how powerful a toon is other than reputation (and what they claim in their persona line). I don't know if this is desirable, but perhaps the game could let us select a few skill levels, or gear details, to be made public so one can quickly appraise what a player can bring to the group. Example: if I could, I would make public my level in Ice Magic and Psychology, perhaps my Gourmand and Endurance, and maybe my staff. Showing that 4 important skills are maxed, and I wield a staff with 7 mods all transmuted to the best combination one can make does say something about my character.

. I think we are still missing abilities that help to replace members leaving a group, or to complete a group with free spots but already crawling through a dungeon. Be it Dark Chapel, Wolf Cave, Kur Tower, Lab, Gazluk Keep, if you want to group there right now, you want the best group you can make at the beginning, because you can't replace anyone. I suspect that, more often not, it means in practice that the group just doesn't happen.

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Originally Posted by Niph

I think we are still missing abilities that help to replace members leaving a group, or to complete a group with free spots but already crawling through a dungeon. Be it Dark Chapel, Wolf Cave, Kur Tower, Lab, Gazluk Keep, if you want to group there right now, you want the best group you can make at the beginning, because you can't replace anyone. I suspect that, more often not, it means in practice that the group just doesn't happen.

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Someone (I don't remember who, sorry) threw this idea ingame - a group summoning skill, maybe as a guild feature.

edit [MENTION=90]Tagamogi[/MENTION]-actually not sure how many times I ran various dungeons but overall I believe I ran wolf cave and nexus way more than Lab or GK. I was never a huge fan of DC, although the first level is an excellent farming spot the elite part wasn't that appealing (fps drops for me). I basically lived in wolf cave for a while and I don't know why people (especially lycan players) don't run it, it even has chests now.