Total Character Wipe

I will be wiping my own character at launch because I want to start fresh. That being said I think it's fine to keep the battle skill lvls for those who want to. Mainly because unlike other games this one kept its servers open all the time during testing. Most of the time in alphas/betas they invite selected players to come in and test the game at specific times and with specific builds for the game here and there through out a couple of years. I think Eric and company are making the right choice considering how they decided to run their alpha/beta.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

PS Because I read carefully I couldn't help but notice the only players who are pro-wipe are OP and Finbarr, surprisingly even new players like it the way it is.

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Given the tone this thread has taken, this should hardly be surprising. Anyone who comes out as pro-wipe is pretty much asking for it. It's not exactly an anonymous poll. I'd say it's more akin to walking around Salem asking who is pro- or anti- witch.

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Originally Posted by drivendawn

I will be wiping my own character at launch because I want to start fresh. That being said I think it's fine to keep the battle skill lvls for those who want to. Mainly because unlike other games this one kept its servers open all the time during testing. Most of the time in alphas/betas they invite selected players to come in and test the game at specific times and with specific builds for the game here and there through out a couple of years. I think Eric and company are making the right choice considering how they decided to run their alpha/beta.

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Your character (all our characters) might be completely stripped with only their names left, who knows. I'm happy if I get to keep my chars's names, I'm kinda attached to them. I started a char fresh w/o using resources from my main char and it was fun and I didn't have to delete my main character for that. I just have 2 mains now.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

Your character (all our characters) might be completely stripped with only their names left, who knows. I'm happy if I get to keep my chars's names, I'm kinda attached to them. I started a char fresh w/o using resources from my main char and it was fun and I didn't have to delete my main character for that. I just have 2 mains now.

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True, I only have one character though. It was the same for me in AC and FFXI all with the same name lol. Drivendawn since summer of 2000 :D

Somewhat organized thoughts:

Legacy server - Tbh this strikes me as something that is CLEARLY terrible. A server where people can't join is obviously going to die eventually - most players will realize this and leave, making it die faster. Doing this is just a backhanded way of trying to appease anti-wipe vets, and you have to spend extra money on it. A legacy server is possibly the worst way to address the wipe issue.

Competition - I hear this. All games can inherently be made competitive, pvp mmos, pve mmos, even single player games. Many players (me included) take a sense of pride in being X level in combat or crafting or having excellent gear. I strongly remember a certain someone saying that your opinions were worthless unless you had 4k skill points. But still, we're in the minority...PG just doesn't draw that kind of crowd. Altogether not a very convincing reason to wipe.

Launch - I think the main divide here is that pro-wipe players see the launch as a clear, definitive point in time, where we can say "pre-launch PG and post-launch PG are two totally different things." I'd say that this is sort of an outdated view. Rag on Steam EA and perma-Betas all you want, but the game industry's changed a lot since the days of clear alpha->beta->release progressions. Mortitia nailed it - the game's already been playable for years and years. Devs have also said that development will continue after launch (pseudo-expansions), so I don't think there's anything particularly special about launch. To me, it just seems like another patch.
QFT:

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Originally Posted by Mortitia

This is the key point and i think part of the misunderstanding, and maybe a mistake from the devs. I dont feel and i dont think we are in alpha, it's more like a long beta and sometimes i play it like a finished game. The devs say alpha to lower the pressure from players or mmo websites.

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Economy - I don't think that players having tons of gold will drastically affect the economy on launch. Even if it does, the same players will very quickly rise to the top and dominate the economy all the same. I can guarantee you that if there was a complete wipe, I'd no-life it and be back at max level in probably a couple weeks. The money would follow soon after. The main "slowdown" as a new player is that you take time to explore the game, explore the skills, complete quests, learn the systems, learn rotations. Old players will skip these sections entirely, and might not even ever revisit them. So 1) I don't see how the economy will be SIGNIFICANTLY hurt by not wiping on launch and 2) it seems likely that we'll soon be the same situation after a wipe anyway.

Related to economy - In this hypothetical wipe, there are plenty of players that will beat me to 100 and be back at millions within a month or two. While they're doing this, they'll be collectively ravaging the mobs/wood/seeds/fruits/dungeons. Not only will organized players shit all over new players during launch, there'll also be tension between groups of vets as they move through the zones. Unless there's a dynamic spawn system that's 100% worked out, it doesn't seem wise to force this situation by wiping.

On powerleveling and skipping content - Personally, I rarely read books or watch shows multiple times, even my favorites. The early flavor text and systems introduction in PG is incredible and incredibly endearing, but I wouldn't really enjoy re-doing it much, if at all. And some parts (grinding) would be flat-out boring.

Selfishness - I agree that both sides of this argument are selfish. Not really any point in bringing this up.

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Originally Posted by alleryn

Given the tone this thread has taken, this should hardly be surprising. Anyone who comes out as pro-wipe is pretty much asking for it. It's not exactly an anonymous poll. I'd say it's more akin to walking around Salem asking who is pro- or anti- witch.

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Yeah, I actually feel like this happens to a lot of criticism. After the first couple comments the claws come out and people rush to defend PG.

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Originally Posted by cratoh

It is brought up each month as a new bunch of people come and play, realise there is not going to be a wipe, and quit.

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Citation needed. I read most of the comments on kickstarters/mmo sites/mmorpg subreddit and haven't really seen this sentiment. What I HAVE seen are people saying that they will wait until the game is "actually launched" to start playing, or that they will wait for a finished product. Another relevant quote from Mort:

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That said, players who dont know the game will just take the option to wait after "alpha" when they could just hop on now and have fun with us, removing their potential gap at release.

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All that said, I wouldn't hate having a wipe. I do feel like it'd be fun to race people to endgame, and I like the 'fresh start' aspect of it. I think it might also increase the game's longevity (since it'd take longer for people to feel like they 'beat' it), even if some players leave over it.

All THAT said, this whole discussion is pretty moot. The devs have said multiple times that they will not wipe, and I would think that for them to go back on it now, there would have to be a really great reason. IMO nothing in this thread has come close to that (sorry).

It's kinda weird that people asking about a wipe suddenly means there's support for one.

The only posts in favor of a wipe I know of are right here. And clearly not a majority.

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Originally Posted by Delceri

I have a similar mindset to this. I don't think anyone will be starting from zero however, if there is no wipe.

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Well, i'm not a regular player, i just play for a few weeks, and stop for a few months, and come back, and again... So i can test some, and see new content and features without being bored too fast. So i'm pretty certain i will drop my spider and my bat 30ish, and my musician... so i can re-enjoy again all the content and progression, making "better" choices (i'd not be druid again for example), having a complete view of what a real noob would have, etc.

When you released the new noob island to replace the previous cave introduction, i restarted again, for example.

I've alpha/beta tested a great amount of games, MMOG or not, and in most of them, i always start from fresh when the developers believe the game is ready to be a "version 1.0".

For Project Gorgon, i'll very certainly do the same.

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Originally Posted by Delceri

1] "TLDR: I don't care about the wipe personally, nor do I care that you care"
(continues to write an essay despite not caring)

4] Not to bash the OP or anything, (I don't know you mate but you seem like a swell guy/gal), but
BUT.....ima bash you anyway. Then you proceed to make no point (thus just bashing)

I won't be checking this thread again.

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I don't care that you care about a wipe. I don't care if other people care. I'd prefer if more people shared my thoughts of "does it really matter?" Everyone has their own take on it, but I wrote out why I don't care to pitch the view of the third party involved in this asides from the "Full Vs Semi/No" (Wipe).

I didn't bash you and I did make numerous points as to why topic is just spinning wheels (speculation/pointless). If they went over your head that's probably because you were too busy looking at your keyboard preparing your responses.

I wasn't trying to take the moral high ground but in terms of belittling opinions, I basically said "why do you care, you shouldn't care" and I got a "hmmff whatever" in return.

Maybe its just my self righteous, dick-headed nature but I think more people should join me on the fence. I don't plan on getting down and I have beers.

What do you have? Oh, a thread that you abandoned because people disagreed with you. Good luck with that. Cheers!

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Originally Posted by drivendawn

I will be wiping my own character at launch because I want to start fresh. That being said I think it's fine to keep the battle skill lvls for those who want to. Mainly because unlike other games this one kept its servers open all the time during testing. Most of the time in alphas/betas they invite selected players to come in and test the game at specific times and with specific builds for the game here and there through out a couple of years. I think Eric and company are making the right choice considering how they decided to run their alpha/beta.

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This is the way to go. No discussion needed, its your character do what you want.

Btw, before you delete your character I would check with someone at PG team to make sure you can still get your name, if you want it.

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Originally Posted by Easylivin

This is the way to go. No discussion needed, its your character do what you want.

Btw, before you delete your character I would check with someone at PG team to make sure you can still get your name, if you want it.

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Will do, and thanks for the heads up.

It's something that kinda baffles me. When I started playing PG one of the first people I was in contact with was Erdrick (he gave me and another newbie a necro run day one). He was darn OP lol. Then I saw AnimalRights, BetaNotus and Awatu, all high level and very well geared. I knew very early on that the chars won't be wiped at launch but it hasn't crossed my mind AT ALL that I would want these players' characters wiped so I can get an "even playing field". I'm not being "disingenuous" (hate the word btw, just say plain liar lol) but if anything I wanted to have a char like Erdrick who was soloing crypt level 2. Ofc that's by no means OP in today's terms but it motivated me to get better at this game. What good would it do to me if other players, older than me would lose their chars?

So srsly i genuinely don't understand this "I want everything wipe" thing. Mainly because as much as I try to think from a new players's perspective I come to the same conclusion really. Even as a newb I didn't want a wipe, I'd rather have people who can help me with advice than people I have to compete with for popular leveling spots.
It was mentioned already, we'd trample over newbies in all the popular leveling spots...I think that would be a more valid reason to quit: starting a game, trying to kill a mob to level and finding everything dead and the ground littered. If anyone remembers how it was around kickstarter when we got lots of new people, that's how bad it's gonna be x100 in case of a full wipe. It's an open world and competing for resources with hordes of vets set on relevelling will drive new people away for sure.

What Finbarr for example doesn't understand is that - beside the sentimental reasons to keep our chars - a wipe would actually benefit the vets willing to restart. We'd have all the tools to be the best players on the server again (the know how).

PS I can't even say I'm pro or anti wipe, I just took Citan's statement for a fact and moved on. I occasionally try to change his mind about storage or other features but this one I just didn't see the need to debate, it's his decision if he keeps or wipes anything or how much of it or whatever. I personally disagree with a Steam launch, I hate Steam and using their launcher but whatever you know, he thinks that's the best way to market PG, I'll have to put up with Steam and bluescreens if I wanna play it. Just move on and move away from topics like wipe, PvP, Unity etc where he clearly stated his position a bazillion times already.

Ruling class or merchant elite, nice titles but frankly lazy arse or flat broke would better suit me.

I next to never sell stuff if i do its not at the current stupid prices. I played when things were shared between the players and I share what I have now still despite the changing game model. Fin you should know this.

Whole thread has turned catty so not really looking to stir it up more, just wanted to add a couple of small things, firstly that I enjoy meeting new players helping them a little here and there. The idea of a server which has no new life is frankly unappealing to me.

I can somewhat understand that newer players can look at the mountain of work in front of them and instead of playing catch up which is more than possible, they may feel it's easier to bring the others down. The trouble is this game has been a few months from going live for ever, at least it has seemed that way to me at least. Perhaps the steam launch is weeks away, but it wouldn't surprise me if it didn't happen this year at all. No disrespect intended just dev is full of ideas and there always seems to be something else being added.

Make no mistake I do not want to keep my character for the sake of greed or power it is all down to the fact I'm far too lazy to do half the boring crap again.

There are also another two aspects:

1) Bugs. Due alpha/beta there are loads of bugs which some players used to advance their chars. In release version this bugs would be fixed and people who used it in the past got certain advantages in compare to new, 'legit' players.
2) It's hard to 'return' to sandbox game. I felt it when I returned PG after two months break (check my past stream...). You don't remember anything, you got loads of unfinished in the past stuff which you don't remember where to do. So if there is a wipe - it's much easier to start from scratch, than going on with 'old' problems :)

Sorry Khaylara! The reason I used disingenuous instead of lying is that it feels to me that people come and say 'Hey why no wipe? Vets will be OP' then people come and shout at them, and give every reason in the world for not wiping 'its payment for alpha/won't skew launch/not competitive/won't effect you/I wouldn't want a wipe if I was a new player/it's not really alpha' etc... When actually what it actually sounds more like is 'I've sunk so many hours into playing I better damn well be uber at launch' And as liar and disingenuous have sublty different meanings, that's why I used it.
[MENTION=582]Celler[/MENTION] Hey man, sorry - I like you, didn;t mean to offend you, but I still feel that supporting no wipe is just shortsighted in the process of getting new players.

@People saying 'where's the proof, how do you know people are leaving?' OK - I honestly don't. But I know that people like me, and others research games to play, we're old gamers, we've been playing for years, we also have busy lives, businesses, wives, kids, animals, houses etc and enough of the peopel that read no wipe and don't liek aren't going to bother posting about it.

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Originally Posted by tangar

There are also another two aspects:

1) Bugs. Due alpha/beta there are loads of bugs which some players used to advance their chars. In release version this bugs would be fixed and people who used it in the past got certain advantages in compare to new, 'legit' players.
2) It's hard to 'return' to sandbox game. I felt it when I returned PG after two months break (check my past stream...). You don't remember anything, you got loads of unfinished in the past stuff which you don't remember where to do. So if there is a wipe - it's much easier to start from scratch, than going on with 'old' problems :)

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1. This. It's happened a lot by mistake. Prices have been radically slashed on so many ways of making money that weren't apparent bugs, and so not only do new players have to try and catch up all the skill costs, and whatever else isn't wiped, they have to do it on a slower cash farm.

2. This is such a good point as well. So many people have tried PG, loved it, and left to come back later. They might, but with no wipe, they might not. If there was a wipe or a new server, they would be more inclined.

Lastly - I always get shit when I post on threads on this topic - and tbh, it isn't at all nice. I've contributed a lot to this game, I help people when they need it with crafted items, advice, useful drops, cash, directions or just a chat. I've supported the game financially. I have friends in game and enjoy group and solo content contrary to what some people post about me. I chat with Srand when I get to, I love the game and same as anyone else that plays it, I want it to succeed.

It's a forum, this is alpha, we're asked for our opinions.
None of the stuff about wipe is 100% anyway, it keeps getting opened by new people.
YOU may support no wipe, ME, I support a wipe. Whenever it gets opened I will restate my opinion as I engage whoever posted about it in the thread.

Devs change their minds. They do it based on feedback, and what they think is good for a game.

What is very BAD for a game is people scaring other members of the community into not posting about something they are concerned about. Yes, you can grief people for starting a new topic. Some people don't want to necro post a topic, they want to start one.

Deal with it.

Peace.

FINBARR

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

It was mentioned already, we'd trample over newbies in all the popular leveling spots...I think that would be a more valid reason to quit: starting a game, trying to kill a mob to level and finding everything dead and the ground littered.

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Spreading out the player population seems like one of the best arguments against a complete wipe to me. Of course, I'm biased since I don't like crowds. :) The game could try to work around the overcrowding problem by providing many many newbie zones but then if it succeeds in attracting all those competitive people that like to race to the top, those newbie zones would be virtually empty pretty shortly and a waste of development time in the long run.

If I'm a new player in a game, I personally do feel discouraged if it seems everyone is lightyears ahead of me. My key trigger is "everyone" though - if there is a sufficiently large crowd at the same level as me, I can ignore the level 1000 people. It's also going to be much easier for me to not feel envious of the more experienced players if we aren't forced into the same leveling zones together.

Obviously, people's feelings about this can vary.

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Originally Posted by cratoh

Sorry Khaylara! The reason I used disingenuous instead of lying is that it feels to me that people come and say 'Hey why no wipe? Vets will be OP' then people come and shout at them, and give every reason in the world for not wiping 'its payment for alpha/won't skew launch/not competitive/won't effect you/I wouldn't want a wipe if I was a new player/it's not really alpha' etc... When actually what it actually sounds more like is 'I've sunk so many hours into playing I better damn well be uber at launch' And as liar and disingenuous have sublty different meanings, that's why I used it.
[MENTION=582]Celler[/MENTION] Hey man, sorry - I like you, didn;t mean to offend you, but I still feel that supporting no wipe is just shortsighted in the process of getting new players.

@People saying 'where's the proof, how do you know people are leaving?' OK - I honestly don't. But I know that people like me, and others research games to play, we're old gamers, we've been playing for years, we also have busy lives, businesses, wives, kids, animals, houses etc and enough of the peopel that read no wipe and don't liek aren't going to bother posting about it.

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Since you don't seem to care if you offend me (and you did repeatedly every opportunity you had), I'm gonna be blunt m8. If anyone cares about being "uber at launch" that's you. Don't project whatever you feel on us. I'm not uber now nor do I aspire to be. I'm never going to put up cheap WO to make cash off the newbies you seem to care so much about. I'm never going to run a guild full of my own alts to exploit the guild storage and credits. Stop. Projecting.

Exploits and whatever unfair advantages people think we have-the only "exploit" I've ever done iirc was pick up paintings from goblin dungeons when mobs weren't attacking me. Which I was doing legit anyway when the dungeon broke, reported few times and went back the next day. If that is gamebreaking for anyone else please Citan, downgrade my art history! Or delete the whole thing, I'll be back to 50 within hours. I hope that helps new players join the game. Bugs exist now so technically anyone exploiting them should be not wiped at launch but banned. Plain and simple. Not wipe, ban. And people were banned for exploits already.

The tone of this thread was dictated by OP with his entitled post and by you Fin who keep pushing the same arguments nobody cares about. Bashing anyone who disagrees with you won't get you fans. Two days into the game you were already arguing with older players to the point where you pissed off one of the nicest players I know. When a newbie asks for details about launch ingame I never jump at their throat for it. I explained the stages of development and the plans to numerous newbies, I also directed them to the developer blog. The only one who can't discuss it in a civil way is you.

About how people are busy with their real lives and can't spare the time to make a quick post on a topic they supposedly care about, I call bs on that. Again plain and simple. I can assure you my household doesn't get neglected because I write a forum post.


Now let's drop the topic alltogether shall we?

PS unrelated but I also disagree that there are less ways to make cash now.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

Since you don't seem to care if you offend me (and you did repeatedly every opportunity you had), I'm gonna be blunt m8. If anyone cares about being "uber at launch" that's you. Don't project whatever you feel on us. I'm not uber now nor do I aspire to be. I'm never going to put up cheap WO to make cash off the newbies you seem to care so much about. I'm never going to run a guild full of my own alts to exploit the guild storage and credits. Stop. Projecting.

Exploits and whatever unfair advantages people think we have-the only "exploit" I've ever done iirc was pick up paintings from goblin dungeons when mobs weren't attacking me. Which I was doing legit anyway when the dungeon broke, reported few times and went back the next day. If that is gamebreaking for anyone else please Citan, downgrade my art history! Or delete the whole thing, I'll be back to 50 within hours. I hope that helps new players join the game. Bugs exist now so technically anyone exploiting them should be not wiped at launch but banned. Plain and simple. Not wipe, ban. And people were banned for exploits already.

The tone of this thread was dictated by OP with his entitled post and by you Fin who keep pushing the same arguments nobody cares about. Bashing anyone who disagrees with you won't get you fans. Two days into the game you were already arguing with older players to the point where you pissed off one of the nicest players I know. When a newbie asks for details about launch ingame I never jump at their throat for it. I explained the stages of development and the plans to numerous newbies, I also directed them to the developer blog. The only one who can't discuss it in a civil way is you.

About how people are busy with their real lives and can't spare the time to make a quick post on a topic they supposedly care about, I call bs on that. Again plain and simple. I can assure you my household doesn't get neglected because I write a forum post.


Now let's drop the topic alltogether shall we?

PS unrelated but I also disagree that there are less ways to make cash now.

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Really going off now eh. Maybe I should just only post if I agree with you, and not have contrary opinions, and maybe I should just play exactly how you want me to.

I really don't care what you call bullshit on or not, most people cba to post on forums on a game they are trying. I discuss plenty of stuff in perfectly reasonable ways, just because i have a differing opinion does not make it uncivil.

Calling us out and spewing "selfish, disingenuous" at few people is not civil m8. Editing your post doesn't change the fact that you were offensive and downright rude. Get used to get a response on the same tone. And stop making up imaginary friends with busy lives to back up your argument.

Can we stop posting now.

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Originally Posted by cratoh

Devs change their minds. They do it based on feedback, and what they think is good for a game.

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So I should make a no wipe thread?

I can't help but wonder how much of this is a capitalist vs communist thing, with communists thinking that new players would want to see an equal start and capitalists thinking new players want to see elite players to give them hope of upward social mobility. Just a passing thought...

I am looking forward to subscribing monthly to pay for more content. It has nothing to do with using current character slots. I can appreciate the inexplicable need to change one's mind about this kind of project.

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Originally Posted by Delceri

However I still find this unfair to even newer players, and I also like the idea of competing/building with others from a blank slate with the game fully completed(ish, no launch is perfect).

A lot of games don't wipe their *final wave* of *beta testing*, but alpha? Isn't there a better alternative here? One of the benefits of being a tester is having vast amounts of knowledge over other players for a solid edge anyways.

TLDR; Full Character Wipe should happen at launch or near to launch.

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I feel like the no-wipe thing is a bribe, plain and simple.

The dev team is tiny. It's 2 people (or 3 people if you count the forum/web person). They contract out for some stuff. But the core team is tiny and there are human limits to how quickly the game will be built.

Players have already had to stick around for years and there will be more years in the future.

By not wiping at launch they attracted the sort of people who would be okay with being involved in a game that would take a long time to build. *IF* you keep your character skills on launch then the time it takes to get to launch isn't as important as if there's going to be a final wipe.

With a final wipe people want to get to the wipe ASAP so they can get to the point where they get to start keeping everything.

Is it "fair" to new people or highly competitive people? No.

Does it make sense given how long the game will take to build? Absolutely.

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Originally Posted by tangar

There are also another two aspects:

1) Bugs. Due alpha/beta there are loads of bugs which some players used to advance their chars. In release version this bugs would be fixed and people who used it in the past got certain advantages in compare to new, 'legit' players.

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It's not just bugs. This is just part of testing.

Before I started playing, players did "stuff" a certain way. Gear mods worked differently. Then there was a big mod change (which was a mini-wipe of sort as it broke all the gear), right when I started playing. I started a little while before the 2016 Halloween event and I ended up with a lot more cash and loot than I "should" have had. I unlocked a bunch of favor and bank slots with it.

People came after me. They didn't have that advantage, but they were still able to get Battle Chemistry easily.

As of a few updates ago, Battle Chemistry is gated by skill and location. But the players who can't get Battle Chemistry easily can still unlock something else easily now that will be gated later on.

There will be *something* that "all" the alpha players got easily that will be made hard.

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Originally Posted by Celler

Make no mistake I do not want to keep my character for the sake of greed or power it is all down to the fact I'm far too lazy to do half the boring crap again.

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I agree. I worry a little that we're going to have to re-do some things that haven't been clearly defined one way or another like re-buying favor or recipes. I'd really hate having to unlock all that stuff again.

There will be *something* that "all" the alpha players got easily that will be made hard.

Most things actually got easier as the development progressed I find. We get a lot more materials in general these days, more mobs implemented that drop materials, more stuff to gather and the WO really help with buying skills. More zones, larger dungeons, way more gear drops. We have never had dungeons that had so much in the way of drops as Lab and GK (which are relatively newly added). Cotton yields extra harvest, stomachs are really not that rare anymore, we got music buffs and dancing buffs now, fire mats drop a lot better etc. (that's why I'm baffled when people say "stomachs are stupid rare, that's broken" because they drop so much better than before).
Overall I find it's way easier to progress now than a year ago for sure,I started a new character with completely new skillsets and even with the reduced exp rate she had a less harsh upbringing. It's easy to imagine older players had some sort of advantage in the past (because newer players don't have anything to compare with) but judging by the majority of my game friends the only advantage is understanding how the game works better than new players.

This thread has been mostly civil, but I want to step in to remind everyone that we encourage the free exchange of ideas, suggestions, etc. If you disagree with someone, feel free to share your thoughts in a constructive manner. Personally attacking or harping on someone for their views is not needed and stiffles a free and open discussion.

Is there a need to continue this though? Citan repeatedly posted where he stands and the whole "wipe" thing is based on assumptions anyway. We have no clue what or how much he intends to keep and, with that in mind, starting this conversation over and over is kinda pointless. Imho we should just wait and see, I wouldn't be surprised if at Steam launch we'd be all naked level 1 cows with no other skills teleported on Anagoge. He never clearly said what skills he intends to keep, wipe or change.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

I have been playing without many breaks since 2014 and I can tell you that the devs don't listen to older players in particular. If anything, Citan actually told me that I dislike parts of the game cause I'm bored. Side note-no, I'm defs not bored, you made an awesome game...but after 3 years I have the same beef with inventory and storage I had 3 years ago and he still doesn't believe I hate it cause I hate it not cause I'm bored xD

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Really? Did Citan say you're just bored about storage? Or was it just in general? Was this a post? If it was, do you know where it is? I'd love to read it if it's public.

Yep it's somewhere on the old forum but I understand the reaction lmao (I kinda think it's funny). He thought I was bored because at the time there wasn't much new content so I was annoying him with my storage issues=)) I do tend to go in pitbull mode when I want something and I can be very very nagging till I get what I want so...yeah lol. I think I must've started a storage thread per month just to stay in shape.
He's very helpful when we have game problems but with storage my guess will be that he has some master plan so we'll have to put up with it for a bit longer. He definitely knows we hate storage:P

edit-sorry for off topic

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Originally Posted by Hood

Trolls, the least you can do is search the forums for similar posts *before* starting another terrible thread regarding the same tired thing that's brought up each month.

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I suppose if they wanted to do that they would have. You might try not telling them how to post.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

Is there a need to continue this though? Citan repeatedly posted where he stands and the whole "wipe" thing is based on assumptions anyway. We have no clue what or how much he intends to keep and, with that in mind, starting this conversation over and over is kinda pointless. Imho we should just wait and see, I wouldn't be surprised if at Steam launch we'd be all naked level 1 cows with no other skills teleported on Anagoge. He never clearly said what skills he intends to keep, wipe or change.

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We allow open discussion, even after we have made an announcement. Since you've brought up storage in this thread, I will use that as an example. You’ve made your opinion known on storage, but you’ve continued to let us know your opinion even after Citan responded to you. We know that you have a strong opinion on this and other topics, but please allow others the freedom to express their opinion without the need for suggesting they shouldn’t.

As for the official stance on character wipes, this is it: "Characters will not be completely wiped at launch. We will be wiping some aspects of your characters, but not everything. In particular, we will be wiping items and money, but we won't be wiping most skill levels. Please note, this is subject to change as we progress through development."

Citan never actually responded to the storage thing:) All I know is that he has plans to improve it and in more recent blogs I saw there will be improvements.

"Please note, this is subject to change as we progress through development" - also this. Exactly what I said, the part about keeping characters skills is subject to change (see level 1 cows naked on Anagoge) so starting a thread based on the assumption he intends to keep ALL the skills and complaining it's unfair is only that, an assumption and a whole "unfair" scenario based on a decision that is not final.
In all the threads I made about storage you will never find me saying "X Y and Z players have been playing way longer than me, they have more storage therefor you should wipe all our storage so we can all start fresh". I am critical of the storage system, yup, but for all I know all the storage and favor could be wiped anyway so why care about what others have?
Of course people are free to give their opinion but they should be able to accept other opinions without resorting to personal attacks.
I mean everyone is entitled to their opinion but in the interest of a civil conversation (and for the sake of giving actual feedback) make it about the game and not about other players. When one stops bringing logic to the table and discussing a game feature and instead starts spewing insults towards other players there's when we stop having a civil conversation.


P.S. to understand better what I mean about a change of tone, check pages 3 and 4 of this thread. "This reallllly sucks, that is garbage" are not really valid arguments.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

There will be *something* that "all" the alpha players got easily that will be made hard.

Most things actually got easier as the development progressed I find. We get a lot more materials in general these days, more mobs implemented that drop materials, more stuff to gather and the WO really help with buying skills. More zones, larger dungeons, way more gear drops. We have never had dungeons that had so much in the way of drops as Lab and GK (which are relatively newly added). Cotton yields extra harvest, stomachs are really not that rare anymore, we got music buffs and dancing buffs now, fire mats drop a lot better etc. (that's why I'm baffled when people say "stomachs are stupid rare, that's broken" because they drop so much better than before).
Overall I find it's way easier to progress now than a year ago for sure,I started a new character with completely new skillsets and even with the reduced exp rate she had a less harsh upbringing. It's easy to imagine older players had some sort of advantage in the past (because newer players don't have anything to compare with) but judging by the majority of my game friends the only advantage is understanding how the game works better than new players.

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bat poop is easy to get now...

If they don't do a full character wipe (except names) then I think they should offer a new server. Not doing a full character wipe is probably the only decision they've made that I would say is really bad. They've sort of dug a hole for themselves by essentially promising it in all but the most dire circumstances.

A benefit of existing characters with powers is that it fleshes out the world in a more realistic way for a role playing game. It's a much more organic way for an RPG to be populated with characters of varying power levels. From that perspective I think it's a rather clever approach to that dilemma.

On the other hand this is a very community centered MMO and the importance of community to should take preference to the RPG, not much but it is the defining factor in reference to other RPGs. It's been my experience that not fully wiping is more detrimental than not.

It depends on what type of community you want to create as a foundation really. Do you want to create a community with a stratified social structure, or are you okay with that? It can create strong social bonds, but it can also create an atmosphere where newer comers are always treated that way. In the end I think that hampers inclusive adoption.

The other reason I have is that not wiping, keeping testing progress, goes directly against the spirit of the testing outline. If anyone read the "Testing" thread a common theme in that is not to play the game as if it were released and yet the core of character progression is already in release state. It's not consistent.

But in the end it's their decision and I'll roll with it because it's not that big of a deal. If I were making a game (the DM) then I would be making the rules. I'm not the DM so I'll take the rules as they come and it will be okay.

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Originally Posted by chill

I'll just throw out a "middle-ground/compromise" idea that popped in my head to add to the discussion, and of course I have no clue if it's actually technically feasible at all.

1) Do a wipe, but save and backup everybody's skill levels/progress right before the wipe.
2) Launch
3) After X amount of time (a few days, a week, a month, whatever), let everyone jump ahead and return back to their old state skill-wise if they want to.

Result: Everyone starts out fresh and everything is rolled back to create a new server experience for new people, but *eventually* alpha testers get their progress back. Vets can choose to play along with everyone or I imagine some would sit out and just wait.

P.S. I'm against a full wipe. I think people are definitely exaggerating how many people won't play without a fresh server. It reminds of Asheron's Call when the new server Verdantine was introduced ... everyone claimed they would come back to the game only if there was a new server where everyone was equal. They introduced the server. Then a few weeks/months later everyone went back to their old servers and this new server was empty. It's a short term problem but wiping everyone's progress is a major and permanent action.

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What if the folks that chose to "reset" got an optional title? Like in Call of Duty where players can reset to level 0, after getting max level, for "prestige"

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"They've sort of dug a hole for themselves by essentially promising it in all but the most dire circumstances."

I'd like to detail this for people who are fairly new. Note that by comparison I'm new next to others.

Imagine an indie game developer who started creating a game. There are no money to develop it fast and do a launch, no money to buy an expensive graphic engine, no money to hire more developers, no money for testing (not sure these days but a while ago testers were paid). All you have is probably some family members and enthusiastic friends who want to test it.

What do you do then. You make it free to play, call it "alpha" and see if people are actually interested in it. This way you get to test your game in all its aspects. See how the servers behave, identify bugs, identify balance issues etc. However if you tell these testers "dude I'm gonna wipe your char few times" they might not play/test consistently. It would be impossible to keep people motivated to play for years knowing that's ONLY to help test the game. You have to understand there are many free to play games (not all bad) and there's competition. So knowing that their characters would be wiped people would only pop once in a blue moon to check out game features added. Then they leave again. Some do that even now.

So how do you motivate players/testers to stick with it for 2,3,4,5 years. I agree it's fun but it's also aggravating in some aspects. Playing a finished game doesn't involve 50 % of a player's time sunk in non-working features, testing bugs or helping others. Honestly, let's say it was a finished game I was playing, it was buy to play and subscription based. I would never put up with so many non-working features in a finished game, I'd complain to customer service and cancel my subscription.

My point is the "your reward for testing was the fun you had" doesn't really stand , realistically speaking. It was not all fun, it takes a lot of time to actually write reports, make suggestions etc. I won't go into that again. Things that you wouldn't bother to do in a finished free to play game. So again, from the developer's perspective, how do you keep people involved and motivated? Offering older players perks after launch would be unfair , what else can you offer them for being loyal and sticking with your game? Exactly what Citan offered (in theory) - the hope that not everything will be wiped so people have an incentive to keep logging every day even when they get frustrated with not-working features, bad UI or crappy graphics.

Not sure it all made sense but short story - I think that's the only way for Citan to create and retain the player base we currently have. At some point the average of people online was 10, you can't have a kickstarter with 10-20 people so how do you market it? Exactly how he did imo.

About this wipe at launch potentially not attracting new people. The kickstarter campaign and indiegogo numbers brought around 1k contributing players (maybe more, I don't have the precise count). As a developer what do you do? Risk alienating these existing customers in the hope that you get new ones? Or go the safe route, try to keep these 1,000 people and risk losing 50-100 people who would maybe buy it off Steam (I have my doubts many would, most people here are either former AC players or nostalgics of the genre so to pay 40 bucks on something untested that has pretty old graphics is hard to believe many would).

Although many might think this is selfish reasoning (cause I want to keep my chars) I'm just using facts and logic. Not from my point of view but thinking of the financial reasons above everything else. I don't think many think of this but the dev has to pay for the servers even, bandwidth etc, how much could he stretch 100 k or less (from ks and indiegogo). How would he even support a legacy server with about 50 people on it. He'd have to put up a 100 monthly sub to even keep the server.

Just my thoughts on the topic anyway. After all it's not about what we want but about what would keep this game going and profitable for the future. To me the answer is - you got 1k paying players already, do what you can to keep them and keep them interested.

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Originally Posted by chill

That's an interesting one. But I don't know if just a title would compel someone to voluntarily roll back hundreds or thousands of hours of progress

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CoD had like 9 levels of prestige and some people made it all the way to the end...

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

You have to understand there are many free to play games (not all bad) and there's competition.

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Many of them are PvP. When I looked for a PvE game that was new, P:G was the only one I could find. Granted, I didn't *really* look, but still.

Neverwinter is PvE and it seems it's still in top, the graphics were a bit better but it didn't catch me, PoE is another f2p decent game with optional PvP. I joined PG after I saw the old TheHiveLeader's video, it just looked funny but many older players seem to be here due to playing AC or EQ. There are alternatives anyway, many people are actually put off by the fact that there's no PvP (I was anyway and I see that question popping very often, much more often than the wipe question).
It's beside the point anyway, the point was that Citan didn't have many options to keep us playing PG instead of Rift, Archeage, PoE, FF etc . Many would call these games cash shop trash but it's a matter of taste you know, when you have to choose between a finished game and an unfinished one any perk counts and honestly I don't think I'd play daily anymore if I knew there was a wipe at the end of it. I'd most likely still play sometimes but not as active. I don't know if most would do the same, just personal choice here.

edit - Not intending a debate about other games, I only mentioned them as examples.