Total Character Wipe

[cratoh]

It's not one or two very vocal people who want a wipe. It's multiple new people who bring it up in game, and occasionally on forums, an very few very vocal people who come and shout at them every time, naming no names, it quite obvious who. They get ridiculed for asking, or called trolls or just shouted at and pointed to ambiguous posts about it.

The OP answered a lot of the quite silly claims made by people who don't want one, in a very reasonable manner and yet still here we go the same.

If I didn't hear about P:G till launch I would do a little research, realise people had a game breaking advantage and just not bother. Or, I might try it for a bit, but I really hate the idea of joining a game where the whole economy is driven by a few old vets.

People say that there is no competitive edge to this game, well there is. There is totally a competitive edge. And it's cash. Going into the new release with skills intact gives people a massive advantage as they have millions upon millions invested in their characters in terms of storage, training, favour. Also guilds. They should be wiped as well or there will just be a few extremely attractive 'pre-made' guilds that people will want to join for all the perks.

Make no mistake, there will loads more stuff by launch, and all of it will be effected by a partial wipe, or only cash wipe.

I think that the vets posting in this thread about how a wipe is not important are being utterly disingenuous by listing all the reasons for not wanting a wipe, when the bottom line is that I think you are putting yourselves above the health of the game at launch. We've had our playground - that's what Alphas, and testing phases are. Playgrounds, but you want it to continue after launch, I've seen so many disparaging remarks about Steam launch and 'being swamped' etc etc, but Eric needs those people, we need them - to keep the cash flowing in, and to build a great community.

No wipe will equate to a ruling class of elite testers with a complete financial stranglehold over the rest of the server, dictating prices and values, getting any prestige items such possibly prime real estate when that is added, or BiS items in auction, or buying up items needed for new skills, or maintaining vendor stalls at a loss or whatever. One can argue that this isn't what will happen, but it really is, wait and see if no wipe.

A wipe will not completely prevent this - but it will help to make a launch more balanced. I've said it before and I'll say it again - the perk of Alpha - the payment for testing IS the testing - not what comes after.

EDITED to remove a couple of names from my post and instead just make it generic to people posting in this thread

[Andelas]

I have a vested interest in no complete wipe as I have been here for a while and have a large number of currently maxed out skills, in addition I am a guild-master of one of the largest guilds. I have also backed the game.

If there were a complete wipe I'd be quite annoyed especially since it has been stated by the developers that this will not happen. However, we have strong guild and we know the content and mechanics we are also on excellent terms with the other established guilds and their players. In the event of a complete wipe many of the vets would leave as there are parts of the game they would not wish to repeat. The remaining vets would probably form into one or two guilds and race through a lot of the early content.

Project Gorgon is a PvE MMORPG it doesn't have published statistics about world firsts or monsters killed. It is not a competition nor do I wish to make it into one. On launch if the game is successful there will be a need for multiple servers/realms. Some servers could be for new characters only, thus your call for a complete wipe is made redundant.

[Khaylara]

Every couple of weeks we pick up this tired old argument.

@OP and no offense intended - If you played for few weeks and purchased the game you probably like it. What if you played for 4 years and also bought the game? How would you feel if at the proper launch someone would ask you to drop all your characters worked through alpha and beta testing, rerolled, nerfed, remade, thousands of hours of playing, hundreds of bug reports etc? Cause if you don't you are selfish and unfair to the newer players.
I don't think anyone carefully read Mortitia's reply (total nub who's been around for many years) ...well he said that "alpha testing" is a convention used by the dev because they don't want to deal with the pressure from the players. During alpha the game is free to play so Citan can have the creative freedom with his game and not be pressured by the "paying customer base" aka us to deliver.
Small side note, this game got into this stage thanks to us too, ofc it's mainly Citan but I'd like to think we contributed and helped him. That's his idea of rewarding us for our help. The fact that we enjoyed playing for years is a bonus ofc but when opening this kind of thread try a quick search on the old forums to see where he stands on this topic.
@Finabarr
"I think that you guys, Khay, Hood, Celler, Tsugu etc are being utterly disingenuous by listing all the reasons for not wanting a wipe, when the bottom line is that I think you are putting yourselves above the health of the game at launch. We've had our playground - that's what Alphas, and testing phases are. Playgrounds, but you want it to continue after launch, I've seen so many disparaging remarks about Steam launch and 'being swamped' etc etc, but Eric needs those people, we need them - to keep the cash flowing in, and to build a great community.

No wipe will equate to a ruling class of elite testers with a complete financial stranglehold over the rest of the server, dictating prices and values, getting any prestige items such possibly prime real estate when that is added, or BiS items in auction, or buying up items needed for new skills, or maintaining vendor stalls at a loss or whatever. One can argue that this isn't what will happen, but it really is, wait and see if no wipe. "

Leaving aside the personal jabs (uncalled for but meh) the players you just listed will not be in favor of your argument. Why? Cause you probably picked the most laid back, casual, "idc to be the best, idc about game money" people you can pick lol. Also quite helpful if i can say so myself. To say that we are selfish and don't care about the game's future is laughable. I hate to remind you but I did help you with any question you had when you started, patiently inspite of your heated tone back then, and did that for many, many people (probably cause I don't care about having new players) . To say that we will be controlling the market and driving the prices is also laughable. All I can think of is...projecting. I can't speak for Celler but I guarantee that none of the others you mentioned has any interest in becoming the PG market king (or queen). There's no competition among us, there's no edge, there's nothing of the sort. You are the proof that contradicts all your argument. You started a year and a half after me and I'm absolutely sure you have more skills maxed, more cash and more items. Where's my massive advantage then? I maxed those skills way before you and still you playing with long breaks and caught up and outleveled me (which doesn't affect me or anyone else btw so I don't see where the competition is, maybe just bragging rights). So...logic and less "feels". Can we drop the animosity now?

My opinion on the whole Steam shtick. We won't have many genuinely new players when the game goes on Steam. Most Steam crowd will look at the graphics, will see it's PvE and won't buy it. Maybe few nostalgics will. The Steam playerbase will be the same 800-1000 people who bought early access already or will buy it off Steam. More clearly put - us, people who already tried it, backed it and are either still playing it or on a break till the early access.
Since I see the same few people advocating for wipe, a poll would be interesting to see how many actually want a wipe and how many don't or don't care. Regardless, the decision to keep or wipe the characters is Citan's and his alone no matter how many pages we write.

PS Idc at all about having a "legacy server". It would not be financially viable to maintain a separate server just for old players and iirc the devs didn't like the idea either.

[cratoh]

We have it every few weeks because people come, realise no wipe and either stay, or leave.

It wasn't a dig, I am just saying that I feel like people are being, as I said, disingenuous - whether they realise it or not.

Stop making it personal, it's not.

People are totally missing the point of how not having to spend millions of gold at launch is going to skew things.

[Easylivin]

When I see threads like this I can only think that someone is envious of another player or group of players. That envy keeps them awake at night thinking of the most bizarre reasoning for rationalizing a full player wipe.

What if I told you that if there was a full player wipe the folks that played for the last 2-3 years would leave? And the damage, bad press, done by suggesting there wouldn't be a wipe then saying "meh f-it this guy cratoah on the internet said a wipe is a good idea so lets do it" would stop others from joining the game? I can make stories up too.

Khay, Hood, Celler, and Tsugu have been around for a long time. They have been through the good and bad. They want this game to succeed and for you to suggest they don't is absurd. You might think the only way to success if through a wipe, others disagree including the dev. Please stop trying to make it happen, it wont and if it does it wont be because you made a thread about it.

[cratoh]

When I see threads like this I can only think that someone is envious of another player or group of players. That envy keeps them awake at night thinking of the most bizarre reasoning for rationalizing a full player wipe.

What if I told you that if there was a full player wipe the folks that played for the last 2-3 years would leave? And the damage, bad press, done by suggesting there wouldn't be a wipe then saying "meh f-it this guy cratoah on the internet said a wipe is a good idea so lets do it" would stop others from joining the game? I can make stories up too.

Khay, Hood, Celler, and Tsugu have been around for a long time. They have been through the good and bad. They want this game to succeed and for you to suggest they don't is absurd. You might think the only way to success if through a wipe, others disagree including the dev. Please stop trying to make it happen, it wont and if it does it wont be because you made a thread about it.

I'm Finbarr ingame, and again, you're making it personal. I'm not talking about bad press or anything else, have a read, stay relaxed and see what you think.

[cratoh]

And the whole bloody point of alpha testing, and forums is to discuss stuff. And the reason people keep bringin this up, is because its something that alot of people find unfathomable.

And, believe it or not, I couldn't give a flying - about what any other player has or hasn't got, or what progress they have made. I'm not even the OP, or shouting about a wipe - if you read the thread you will see I made an alternative suggestion.

[Easylivin]

We have it every few weeks because people come, realise no wipe and either stay, or leave.

It wasn't a dig, I am just saying that I feel like people are being, as I said, disingenuous - whether they realise it or not.

Stop making it personal, it's not.

People are totally missing the point of how not having to spend millions of gold at launch is going to skew things.

You can't say that. How do you know what will be available at launch?

What if alpha/beta testing stops at lvl 70? 80-125 could cost millions or billions and 1-70 is NOTHING compared to 80-125.

We already saw a huge increase from 60 to 70. You also dont know what is planned for 80+ abilities. What if 50% of the abilities had to be looted? Or what if they required multiple hangouts? Or some new tech that hasn't been introduced yet?

[Delceri]

Not sure where this is coming from, as they have stated quite clearly what will and will not be wiped.

Player Economy will be wiped. That means that all player gold and items.


They have also stated they *MAY* reduce/wipe economy skills like leather working, blacksmithing, tailoring, ect, simply because those skills can heavily effect player economy.

The only thing they haven't commented on is NPC favor which can be gotten fairly easily, if a bit of a grind.

". . .they have stated quite clearly what will and will not be wiped . . . *MAY* reduce/wipe economy skills . . . haven't commented on is NPC favor . . ."
Just pointing out what you wrote.

Well, my vote is no wipe. And I have already purchased anything I will ever purchase on this game so this is not from someone who is not really into the game, I really am committed for the long term.

I just think we have a great game here, a great community, why ruin it. Let them be. A new server would scatter the community which is why I have always been against Server changes (ie paid server transfers) because in WOW that ruined our Kel'thuzad community big time as did character name changes. WOW was never the same after. (in my humble opinion)

Just something to think about. We are many of us, here for community and the long haul ......and if that is the case why does it matter?

I am trying to understand so if I am missing a reason it matters let me know. I am new, so I understand the whole 'coming into an established community' thing but that is any community

You always have to break through.

It matters, in my first response you can find some of the reasons. Honestly, starting to become apathetic about it because some people in this thread(not you) are just ridiculous and spewing the same stuff. There are few other perspectives here other than "I've played for 1-3 years... there's a community." The devs shouldn't be making a decision about a wipe(or not to wipe) so early when diverse perspectives are scarce. You seem nice, hope that didn't come off wrong.

Objectively, there are reasonable arguments for both viewpoints. If I may however give some perspective...

If the situation arises where a full wipe is perhaps necessary to make the game more appealing, accessible or new player friendly, I'm all for it. I'd rather have a wiped PG than no PG. That said a partial wipe is preferential, obviously, if the wipe is unavoidable.

Just in regards to some points some of you brought up, (not bothered quoting):

TLDR: I don't care about the wipe personally, nor do I care that you care.

- I only think players who have been playing for a number of years can really comment on the wipe. If you've been playing a few months and decide to weigh in you just come off as entitled or desperate. I think I am in the minority when it comes to this topic as a whole i.e. I honestly don't care either way. Wipe, no wipe, I'll be on PG whatever happens. In terms of play time I'm in limbo, I'm not a new player but I'm not one of the longtime players - even if I was the latter or former I doubt my opinion would be different. I plough on and do my thing, levelling in this and that and helping out new players.

- There seems to be the notion of competition in the air? Silly thought really, anyone who I've gotten to know in the PG community only ever competes with themselves. "I have to level x skill today" "I want to get to level xx over the weekend". I find spurring yourself on to complete or accomplish things is fine, but thinking you have to out-do others? Maybe instead of playing PG go to an arcade and find something actually competitive, try beat [billyboy69xd]'s time on Road Race: Nobody Cares Edition.

- Not to bash the OP or anything, (I don't know you mate but you seem like a swell guy/gal), but I find the whole thing of a new player commenting on a post from last year about a topic they shouldn't really be addressing kind of... Well, I find it sigh inducing. I get that forums are for bant, chats, speculation and discussion but I mean come on. I get some people go on about "time investment" or "worth of play" but seriously..

New players worrying about being behind? They're new, they'll get over it. A lot of things tend to be first come first served but there isn't special treatment for longtime PG players. They're known and listened to but that comes with commitment to the game. Since PG is community based if anyone sticks around and gets involved you become known quickly. I'm from Ireland and there are a lot of small towns with small communities, everyone knows everyone and such is PG. While everyone doesn't know everyone here, the same names tend to pop up, and THAT is what PG is. Comrades, friends, familiarity. Put aside the thoughts of "unfair" and "advantage", new players may be behind in skill levels or knowledge, but with the way you go on about it no longtime players or higher levelled players will want to help, and that is the lifeblood of PG. Communicating, helping and talking.

It is for this reason that I believe a wipe doesn't matter, some people try and sound deep with the tired line "its the journey not the destination" yada yada whatever. Personally I think its who you do it with, and I hope the friends I play PG with stick around because they are among the reasons of why I play.

1] "TLDR: I don't care about the wipe personally, nor do I care that you care"
(continues to write an essay despite not caring)

2] " The 'alternate server' idea was addressed by Silvonis I believe? At face value - dumb idea. I remember when it was first brought up, a legacy server that only alpha players could use, along those lines. Lets focus on launch, then the niche - and I really mean -niche-, can have their little snowglobe 'legacy' server."

Thanks for pointing that out, I thought they meant 2 servers where one retained characters(but new players could join).
3] " I only think players who have been playing for a number of years can really comment on the wipe. If you've been playing a few months and decide to weigh in you just come off as entitled or desperate."
It's not a sense of entitlement. It's an opinion. I already stated that I will be playing this game regardless and have already made a purchase. I've asked a question that was, "Isn't this extremely unfair to new comers?".

4] Not to bash the OP or anything, (I don't know you mate but you seem like a swell guy/gal), but
BUT.....ima bash you anyway. Then you proceed to make no point (thus just bashing)

5] "New players worrying about being behind? They're new, they'll get over it. A lot of things tend to be first come first served but there isn't special treatment for longtime PG players. They're known and listened to but that comes with commitment to the game. Since PG is community based if anyone sticks around and gets involved you become known quickly. I'm from Ireland and there are a lot of small towns with small communities, everyone knows everyone and such is PG. While everyone doesn't know everyone here, the same names tend to pop up, and THAT is what PG is. Comrades, friends, familiarity. Put aside the thoughts of "unfair" and "advantage", new players may be behind in skill levels or knowledge, but with the way you go on about it no longtime players or higher levelled players will want to help, and that is the lifeblood of PG. Communicating, helping and talking."
This was the only thing you should have said. However, you are wrong in several places. New players who stay will get over it, not all people. There is special treatment for longtime PG players, and that is evident because of that is exactly what we are discussing. Some special treatment is warranted, and that point has already been made. You're comparing PG to a small community and small towns, that is extremely accurate. I don't think the developers want their game on release to still be a small town game with population 150. I am sure they appreciate it now and would even like to capture and keep that feeling. If you had read my first response, you'd know that I explicitly stated that I don't want the help of higher level players at launch time. Their knowledge, yes, their character support as an OP character, absolutely not. Communicating, helping and talking can still exist with a character wipe.

This will likely be the last time I reply to you if you decide to post again.

I feel it only supports a hundred players because there all doing different things you put everybody competing at start it will not thin out until people are in Kur at least.Of course this is just my speculation.

Everything else excluded(it's been said already or answered), interesting point is the noobie island. You are right that it probably can't support a bunch of new players, because the island tempts you to complete the few puzzles it has. If a server wipe did happen, the developers should take note of this and fix it.

@ Everyone who posted "This game is not a competition", that is a subjective truth. Please bother to read some of the replies, or if you are doing that, consider those other perspectives before trying to make what you are saying is fact. I get it, some people don't think it's a competition. I disagree and your point has been noted.


I'm not convinced Khaylara actually read my response to other people before posting. If you are going to write books for responses then you should at least read my own post that was lengthier(I even broke it up into a very easy way to read). For example,
"I don't think anyone carefully read Mortitia's reply (total nub who's been around for many years) ...well he said that "alpha testing" is a convention used by the dev because they don't want to deal with the pressure from the players. During alpha the game is free to play so Citan can have the creative freedom with his game and not be pressured by the "paying customer base" aka us to deliver."
Even though I clearly responded to the exact point in my first post.

And when you wrote comments such as:
"Within a week or two some of us would be level 100 while real newbies would still run goblin dungeon. Not saying this in an offensive way but it's the truth, the wipe partisans think a full chars wipe would level the playing field. It would not."

I'm going to just stop here. I guess I didn't know what I was getting myself into asking asking why a wipe isn't going to happen in a game that is in alpha.

Kill the thread. I didn't think it through enough. I expected a discussion but it's mostly veterans with the same arguments. I asked for a wipe, it's mostly selfish, I also made the post for people who have similar viewpoints to me(potentially future players too). At least some of you vets could admit *not* wiping is selfish.

I won't be checking this thread again.

[Khaylara]

"Because people don't agree with me I'm not going to bother to read anything they say".

Bluntly put you found a game you like but you don't want the people who helped make it good to at least keep their characters if nothing else. So the staff should cater to you and "potentially future players" (who might or might not buy the game or stick around for longer than a month) ignoring the ones they already have. Also, it's a forum, potential new players can create their own threads or could have contributed to your thread to support this idea but it didn't happen.Yes I read your responses carefully and all I can see is "this is like this and that is like that". Your original post expresses your opinion as being the absolute truth and not an opinion. You are asking the rest of us to validate that opinion and that's not happening either.

Since you made fun of my lengthy posts calculate how much of my time went into 3 years of forum feedback and rethink slamming the "bunch of vets".

Agreed this kind of thread needs to stop popping, use the search tool before reviving an issue that's been discussed to exhaustion.

Something I would like though just for curiosity's sake is to actually be given an example of player/players who quit before they found out there's not going to be a character wipe. I don't know of any. Finbarr kicked a fuss about it when he was new but he hasn't left or quit. I don't know anyone who quit for this particular reason (and I know a lot of people in this game)
Character names, numbers, anything concrete besides vague statements?

PS Because I read carefully I couldn't help but notice the only players who are pro-wipe are OP and Finbarr, surprisingly even new players like it the way it is.