Player Vendors - high rent slow sales

[Crissa]

Game markets are nothing like RL ones. Only basic supply/demand...

This is just flatly untrue. Supply and Demand is only one f many balance point in economics, it's the most very basic of economics, not a cornerstone. It can even have inverse relationship in different real life markets; some things really are cheaper to supply the more demand there is and some things reduce demand by being in supply. Look up Veblen goods and economies of scale.

[Atis]

This is just flatly untrue. Supply and Demand is only one f many balance point in economics, it's the most very basic of economics, not a cornerstone. It can even have inverse relationship in different real life markets; some things really are cheaper to supply the more demand there is and some things reduce demand by being in supply. Look up Veblen goods and economies of scale.

Where did Veblen write about ingame economics? Nowhere? Though so.

IRL economy stuff is mostly not applicable to MMOs, and even when something is applicable, it's so distorted that learning from it would make a disservice to player.


It's about time you stop arguing with yourself about IRL economics, none is interested. This is topic about INGAME market.

[Mikhaila]

I'll go back and read the last few posts, this is quick before i go off to work:

Supply and Demand. These still rule 'economies' even game economies.

What players really want is 1) a way to craft and sell 2) a way to gather and sell to crafters 3) reasons for crafting the items. (If it's crap in the endgame, why make it?)

By limiting players to only 1-2 craft skills you negate their need/want to level up those skills. And wow, does leveling up those skills create demand. Look at cotton, do you ever see much for sale? I can grow my own cotton and yet buy every stack i see for 4k. Would anyone do cheesemaking if they only had 2 slots for crafts? nope, and stomaches would be worth 100 not 1000 and in demand. Would you level butchering if you couldn't sell stomaches?

And would you keep playing the game if you ran out of things to do? Doing all these skills keeps players in the game. And being in the game means they need to earn money, buy stuff to level crafting, and o lots of different skills.

Plus, the idea of a limit on skills means a re-write. It takes 2 skills to even start tool crafting. And because of recipes many skills have soft pre-requisites for needed products. Needed products that in some cases no one is going to make.

I've got a Masters Degree in Mathematical Modeling and Statistics. I've owned gaming stores for 30 years. I look and tear apart every game i've played to figure out game economies. And I'd say that currently the economy in PG is quite healthy. One of the easiest ways to see that is the constant demand for items, and the shortages. There is ZERO reason to start tweaking things now when we haven't even seen what the economy can do. You could ruin something that is working.

Learn all you can about the machine before you start pressing buttons.

[Roekai]

the economy seems fine to me, but what do i know, im just a level 75 / 75 nobody who is always broke buying shit from other players (mostly expensive food)

[Crissa]

@Atis Is that even supposed to make sense? All player actions in games are metered by economic principles. There is nothing in games which aren't economics!

@Mikhaila Very good points; although an argument could be made that constant shortages and resistance in trading are features of an unhealthy market.

I think the bigger problem is information asymmetry and the difficulty in actually dealing with other players. Finding the shop you want in the pile of shops is really painful; I really do wonder if anyone makes back their coin in the second room. There is a quantifiable benefit to being in the first room.

(Also, it's just painful to try to walk from one seller to another. I really really wish the player character would path around the displays and other NPCs.)

[Tagamogi]

By limiting players to only 1-2 craft skills you negate their need/want to level up those skills. And wow, does leveling up those skills create demand. Look at cotton, do you ever see much for sale? I can grow my own cotton and yet buy every stack i see for 4k. Would anyone do cheesemaking if they only had 2 slots for crafts? nope, and stomaches would be worth 100 not 1000 and in demand. Would you level butchering if you couldn't sell stomaches?

That is an excellent point I hadn't thought of before. With everyone having the ability to try out all skills, the market for crafting materials is certainly much, much bigger than it would be otherwise.

My own argument on why unlimited crafting skills are good is more about variety = fun: If there was a limit to how many crafting skills can be learned, the skills would need to be balanced, otherwise everyone would pick the 2 profitable skills and ignore the rest. (Or be upset they are stuck with a gimp, non-money-making skill.) Our current system allows for silly or money sink skills that people can level if they think the skills are fun and they can still participate in the crafting market with other skills if they choose.

I think the bigger problem is information asymmetry and the difficulty in actually dealing with other players. Finding the shop you want in the pile of shops is really painful; I really do wonder if anyone makes back their coin in the second room. There is a quantifiable benefit to being in the first room.

I usually figure everything's in the first room is overpriced and start looking in the second and third rooms. I run a mini-vendor in the third room on occasion and I always sell out. I wouldn't make a profit if I did it more than 1-2 times a month, but I don't think the location is the problem. I've gotten to a point now where I know who has good prices and look specifically for those stores.

[Mikhaila]

@Atis Is that even supposed to make sense? All player actions in games are metered by economic principles. There is nothing in games which aren't economics!

@Mikhaila Very good points; although an argument could be made that constant shortages and resistance in trading are features of an unhealthy market.

I think the bigger problem is information asymmetry and the difficulty in actually dealing with other players. Finding the shop you want in the pile of shops is really painful; I really do wonder if anyone makes back their coin in the second room. There is a quantifiable benefit to being in the first room.

(Also, it's just painful to try to walk from one seller to another. I really really wish the player character would path around the displays and other NPCs.)

Actually, I see constant shortages as a healthy market. As a player, when I see constant shortages I think "opportunity" and "i should be selling that".

And there is a big benefit to being in the 2nd and 3rd room. There is a lot more turnover in vendors and new stuff to buy. Many of the vendors in the first room simply have exactly what they had the day before, and some are dead empty all the time. These are older players with enough money that they don't care about selling, just holding a spot. I run through all the vendors at least once a day. Twice or three times is because there are things i need and hope they put more in their stock. I often skip the first room entirely the 2nd or 3rd round of the day because I know what is there. Prices are also highest there.

[fellentier]

Actually, I see constant shortages as a healthy market. As a player, when I see constant shortages I think "opportunity" and "i should be selling that".

And there is a big benefit to being in the 2nd and 3rd room. There is a lot more turnover in vendors and new stuff to buy. Many of the vendors in the first room simply have exactly what they had the day before, and some are dead empty all the time. These are older players with enough money that they don't care about selling, just holding a spot. I run through all the vendors at least once a day. Twice or three times is because there are things i need and hope they put more in their stock. I often skip the first room entirely the 2nd or 3rd round of the day because I know what is there. Prices are also highest there.

^ This guy markets

[Crissa]

I usually only ever find what I'm looking for in the first room.

[Atis]

@Crissa

Is that even supposed to make sense? All player actions in games are metered by economic principles. Just not the same way as IRL, despite your hundredth attempt to bring in economics 101 in MMO.