Cheesemaking and stomachs

I'd like to suggest the drop rate for stomachs be increased. Stomachs are worth more than 1000 councils each (due to demand). But work orders and NPCs don't pay more than 1000 councils per unit of cheese. Also, it's hard to sell cheese to other players for more than 1000 councils per unit (I mean the lower level cheeses needed to get xp). There's simply not enough money in the system for lower-skill people to buy their stomachs for cheesemaking. They "have" to farm them if they want to make cheeses.

It's very unbalanced for people actually trying to level cheesemaking. Because very few mobs drop stomachs, the wolves in Eltibule (who have a decent drop rate) are very popular. This means lower-skill players have to compete with very high skill players who need the stomachs. The high skill players come to Eltibule in their level 60/70 yellow gear, round up wolves, and just mass slaughter them. Lower skill players can't output the same kind of DPS and are shut out of farming wolves in a zone meant for their skill level when a high skill player is around.

Real animals like cows and goats/sheep have stomachs that can be used to make rennet. A logical suggestion would be to allow the sheep in Kur to have an increased stomach drop rate (slightly higher than the Eltibule wolves), which means higher-level players would have an incentive to farm in Kur and *maybe* allow lower-skill players to get their stomachs in Eltibule.

Low-skill players can use butter, sour cream, and sweet butter as those recipes don't require rennet. They all have issues. Butter gives little xp (for obvious reasons), Sour cream is a fiddly PITA (doesn't stack, needs firkins and a cave, only useful in a limited level range for cooking, doesn't sell for much), sweet butter needs sweet whey which is a by-product of cheese recipes that use stomachs (stomachs are still needed). It's very slow going depending just on those recipes.

The other craft that uses the same ingredient for low and high level recipes is tailoring (cotton). Cotton can be created through character labor (gardening). Looting stomachs is purely at the mercy of the RNG.

I know there's a lively trading market in stomachs because of the rarity. My intent by suggesting the drop rate be increased in Kur is not to bring down the cost of stomachs (or only bring it down a little), but instead to *move* the players with better combat skills to a zone which is too hard for lower-skill players. It may be that habit and "least resistance" will keep people in Eltibule.

I'm sorry those players are causing trouble for low level cheesemakers. They should know the best drop rates come from wolves in wolf cave and the northern beach in Kur.

For some reason cheese making's requirements for stomachs have given a sort of jokey 'endgame' reputation. A bit like the equally bizarre and kind of silly Poetry Appreciation is, cheese making is essentially a weird way to brag about how uber one is, to talk about the grind of CM, and how far along you are in it. The truth is it is super easy to level if you have a fuck ton of gold, as you just buy stomachs, and then level, simply wasting thousands of gold on the way. Which of course is of no consequence do to the bizarre way we are getting a cash wipe, but not a skill wipe. That fact simply encourages it.

Your suggestions are good - stomachs should be less rare or perhaps 1 stomach could be used to make 10 rennet. Whatever the solution, needing masses of stomachs is just a bit silly for the role cheese making fills in game.

Also, sorry about the high levels taking the mobs. I guess it is just a bit of a design flaw at the moment that people level 70 can farm level 25 mobs for loot. Would be better if they greyed out and became non-aggro, non-loot.

I wonder if Animal Husbandry when added to the game will basically allow the farming of meat and organs, like stomachs. Once there are cattle ranchers maybe cheese making will be fairly easy. Increases to stomach drop rate would need to be toned down if that is the case. There is also the fact that all the power players just got unleashed on a new set of possible cheeses, bringing them back into the cheesemaking game with avengence. Once they power level their way thru the new stuff they will probably be less likely to use such tactics unless they see themselves solely as stomach merchants or cheesemakers. So the issue might correct itself to some degree with time. It is like a floodgate got opened with the level increase.

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Originally Posted by cratoh

Your suggestions are good - stomachs should be less rare or perhaps 1 stomach could be used to make 10 rennet. Whatever the solution, needing masses of stomachs is just a bit silly for the role cheese making fills in game.

Also, sorry about the high levels taking the mobs. I guess it is just a bit of a design flaw at the moment that people level 70 can farm level 25 mobs for loot. Would be better if they greyed out and became non-aggro, non-loot.

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Thanks for the agreement :D. For the longer term I'd like to see plant rennent added, and/or using lemons & oranges for citric acid. Maybe citric acid could be a by-product of recipes like orange juice and that lemon peel treat.

There are a few ways to curdle cheese but changes like new kinds of rennent would be a bigger code overhaul than simply increasing the drop rates in specific mobs.

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Originally Posted by ShieldBreaker

Once there are cattle ranchers maybe cheese making will be fairly easy. Increases to stomach drop rate would need to be toned down if that is the case.

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Cows only very rarely drop stomachs. Farming cows will not make cheesemaking any easier. In fact, if we get into farming cows like you're speculating it'll make it harder as there will be more milk supply which means people will want to make more cheese. Milk is the limiting factor in cheese production right now - you either need to multibox/alt a cow or depend on the 6 cows per hour in game. If there's an (effectively) unlimited milk supply then there will be more demand for stomachs.

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Originally Posted by ShieldBreaker

There is also the fact that all the power players just got unleashed on a new set of possible cheeses, bringing them back into the cheesemaking game with avengence. Once they power level their way thru the new stuff they will probably be less likely to use such tactics unless they see themselves solely as stomach merchants or cheesemakers. So the issue might correct itself to some degree with time. It is like a floodgate got opened with the level increase.

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That's true but my concern was from before the latest few updates. I happen to be "moving out" of Eltibule and on to Kur and I wanted to write about this before I forget it. But yes, it's even more frustrating now than a week or two ago.

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I'm really hoping cattle farming is more of an abstract game in itself. You get a cow and bull, you provide resources, wait time, you get new cattle and different resources. It doesn't have to have anything to do with the drop rate in game, how well you tend your herd has the impact on how much and what kind of resources you get. You should be able to be more methodical in your butchering so you got more then you would get with the quick instant butcher in the field. Hopefully the resources will stockpile while you are off line or doing other stuff in game. If I have to summon each cow in turn to milk it, I might go mad. :)

That sounds neat. Like you. I'm curious what animal husbandry will turn out to be. I had been thinking it would just involve breeding/raising the various pet animals (breeding and raising rats or great cats or bears or whatever other pet breeds are added later).

I also would like to see improvements to cheese making, either making stomachs easier to obtain, or as mentioned making one stomach make multiple rennet, or by simply increasing the quantity of cheese that is made per attempt, even an increase to 2 pieces of cheese per attempt would make a world of difference. Although cheese making provides a great snack it is a very painful and expensive skill at this time.
-LaRaj

Ice Conjuration is a great alternative to Cheesemaking.
Sushi making as well.
Don't forget how wonderful Cooking is.

So many options and all are very, very great.

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Originally Posted by chill

The fact is that since the cheesemaking cap was raised last update, cheese right now is the BEST food/snack in the game. I hit lvl 62 cheesemaking and use Grasgot cheese for my meal and Provolone cheese for my stack. They have crazy good stats (+max health and power, and in-combat regen). So the idea that it's just some endgame bragging right is no longer accurate, even though this may have been true a few weeks ago.

With this new information, perhaps the current stomach drop rate makes a little more sense. That said, I'd welcome any increase in the drop rate :cool:

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There are some bugs with the high end cheeses that make them rather more powerful than they should be right now. (In particular, stacking is mucked up for cheeses vs. other foods.) There are a number of lower-level recipe bugs, too. Once we get some of those ironed out, we'll take a look at stomachs. I definitely hear you, though - I hear a lot about stomachs. :)

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Originally Posted by ShieldBreaker

I'm really hoping cattle farming is more of an abstract game in itself. [...]

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Don't quote me on this (yet), but I am pretty sure that is Citan's goal with animal husbandry.

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Originally Posted by srand

There are some bugs with the high end cheeses that make them rather more powerful than they should be right now. (In particular, stacking is mucked up for cheeses vs. other foods.) There are a number of lower-level recipe bugs, too. Once we get some of those ironed out, we'll take a look at stomachs. I definitely hear you, though - I hear a lot about stomachs. :)

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Is there any chance crafting will get a coding/balancing passes in the near furture? We have lots of areas. Weapon skills and equipment/mods both got recent passes. The GUI is on the way. Crafting hasn't gotten any focused attention in a while and there are a lot of responses on the old forums that say "Yeah, we know 'x' is a problem, it won't get fixed till crafting gets a pass".

As far as cheese making is concerned I don't feel that the drop rates for stomachs are the primary issue with the skill instead I feel that the output per recipe is simlpy to low. If each recipe yield was increased (even to 2 per recipe) this would make the balance better. Increasing the output product would also lessen milk need, and if that was not plausible option it seems that an increase in milk used per recipe would still be better than burning up one stomach per cheese. The ingredient cost and time input per recipe isn't balanced with the product output.

Grinding to increase cheese making level higher results in a lot of extra cheese that a cheese maker struggles to get rid of. Since a player is better off trying to obtain this skill later on in the game all the lower recipe cheese are not generally worth the buff. The time and effort put into making the cheese makes the cost per piece either A) Very unrealistically high per piece for a other players to buy -OR- B) Unrealistically to high priced for the maker just to give away to friends or guild members. A slight increase in production would also help to make a player market for cheese by lowering the price of player sold stomachs and increasing the player economy by providing all a sensible snack buff. This further reinforces that fact that not every player will want to do every single skill and will help increase the demand for skill/craft specialization ( I have heard mention of certain craft skill specializations such as blacksmith), as well as helping to create a player market and economy not just for cheese but also for other crafts/skills. There will always be people who are willing to purchase another players goods so they can continue with their own grind or skill/craft.

I understand that this IS a fantasy game, BUT one thing I find unique about this game is that many skills and experiences have ties to real life situations (IE: eating to maintain energy, the complex and detailed needing this to make that, cold damage, dehydration, etc). This being said it seems very unrealistic for me to think that after making a big block of cheese that I would consume it all in a single setting (or as a snack). Considering that Gorgonites running around eating big blocks of cheese as a snack its no wonder there has not yet been a bathroom skill implemented, lol.

Overall, I like the idea of cheese making. It seems to me the direction of things has been leading players to cooking primarily for meal buffs, and cheesemaking primarily for snack buffs. One thing I like about Project Gorgon is that you have to put some work into accomplishing good and beneficial things, although I do feel that this skill could use a small bump in benefit or outcome. Thank you!
-LaRaj

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Originally Posted by LaRaj

As far as cheese making is concerned I don't feel that the drop rates for stomachs are the primary issue with the skill instead I feel that the output per recipe is simlpy to low. If each recipe yield was increased (even to 2 per recipe) this would make the balance better. Increasing the output product would also lessen milk need, and if that was not plausible option it seems that an increase in milk used per recipe would still be better than burning up one stomach per cheese. The ingredient cost and time input per recipe isn't balanced with the product output.

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For people trying to level the skill the drop rate for stomachs is the problem as you need one stomach per "batch" of cheese. For leveling what you count is how many crafting transactions you have to complete before you gain a level. The only fixes for this are to increase xp per craft (or reduce the lower tiers of the xp table), to make it easier for lower skill players to get stomachs, or to provide a more common source of rennet for leveling that doesn't work with high quality cheeses.

Once you have a decent skill level (at your gourmand level or at least "close enough") then output becomes the problem (which is what you're talking about).

I think we're reporting from two different perspectives (leveling vs being leveled), but we're both saying the same thing.

When i was leveling cheese i thought i viable option to the stomach shortages would be to add extra barter combinations to Yalox in goblin dungeon. A you have to butcher to get a stomach more than 75 % time you get the wrong organ when you do manage to get a organ drop, would have been nice to be able to exchange 2 for 1 like you can with all the other organs at yalox.

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Originally Posted by awatu

When i was leveling cheese i thought i viable option to the stomach shortages would be to add extra barter combinations to Yalox in goblin dungeon. A you have to butcher to get a stomach more than 75 % time you get the wrong organ when you do manage to get a organ drop, would have been nice to be able to exchange 2 for 1 like you can with all the other organs at yalox.

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I agree with you Awatu, would make other organs more useful and valuable as well. Great idea!
-LaRaj

Great idea. I'll put your post contents into a Suggest report!

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Originally Posted by Hood

Ice Conjuration is a great alternative to Cheesemaking.
Sushi making as well.
Don't forget how wonderful Cooking is.

So many options and all are very, very great.

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None of skills trees have anything to do with the issues with Cheesemaking.

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Originally Posted by Eachna

None of skills trees have anything to do with the issues with Cheesemaking.

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...Except they also make snacks and are good sources of alternate things to do, as well as alternate things to eat.