Permanent Character Alteration Concern(s)

[Tsugumori]

[This is just ranting I think - take this preview message as a disclaimer!!]

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It would be nice to give all alpha players some type of character re-customization token upon beta/launch, but that's a topic for another day. lol

This kinda defeats the purpose though. I'd get giving out tokens for say 'one-time race changes' perhaps, seeing as some players may want to change their race at some point when the new ones come out, (not to mention if racial skills get implemented there might be some neat ones), but for the permanent skill choices? I don't think so. Of course some people may want to plan ahead, but I mean.. It's a game. Sure there's planning ahead for stuff like gear, quests etc.. But when that same way of thinking is applied to character building in an -open ended- game? Apples and oranges.

I don't think having the option to renounce druid or wolf makes sense. Some people do not like either and that's fair enough, they are open to choose whatever may come down the pipeline as they haven't opted for anything so they have a clean slate, so to speak. That's the point though really, what if some people didn't choose either because they were afraid it would affect their character in the future? Not to be the carefree rain cloud on parade day but seriously nobody needs that shit, even just typing it and reading it back is stressful enough, never mind going through that thought process.

- Choose Both
- Choose One
- Choose Neither

A, B, or C, simple as. Asking the question "But what if I choose one and it negatively affects me in the future?" - Cross that bridge when you come to it. I feel like this was taking 2+2 and making it = x.

As just sidebar stuff..


Lyco and druid aren't that punishing. Sure pro for pro and con for con = Lyco > Druid, wolf beats nature hands down in a contest of player jimmy rustling but even so it's not that bad. " [etc] [etc] [etc] [etc] -something about wolves not being able to play for 3 days of the month or some such even though they can [etc] [etc] [etc] [etc]."

To quote JonTron: " See it's all about perspective this whole 'life' thing. "Awh, I got stabbed with a sword.. but that guy got stabbed with two swords! Man, my life's not so bad." "

Some people view druid as one sword, and wolf as two, (If not three). This topic gets a bit repetitive since these two skills are the only ones currently under the banner of 'character influencing permanence' and we really do need more of them to make it a proper topic.

[Lidocaine]

This kinda defeats the purpose though. I'd get giving out tokens for say 'one-time race changes' perhaps, seeing as some players may want to change their race at some point when the new ones come out, (not to mention if racial skills get implemented there might be some neat ones), but for the permanent skill choices? I don't think so. Of course some people may want to plan ahead, but I mean.. It's a game. Sure there's planning ahead for stuff like gear, quests etc.. But when that same way of thinking is applied to character building in an -open ended- game? Apples and oranges.

Right, this was my fault for kinda derailing my own thread. The mention about getting a character re-customization token only applied to race/cosmetic choices made upon creation and had nothing to do with skills or other permanent choices made throughout the game. I only brought it up in reference to what the previous person said; it is unrelated to what I'm talking about regarding permanent alterations like druid or lycanthropy.

I don't think having the option to renounce druid or wolf makes sense. Some people do not like either and that's fair enough, they are open to choose whatever may come down the pipeline as they haven't opted for anything so they have a clean slate, so to speak. That's the point though really...

I agree. I apologize if I got off track by addressing other things people have stated, but I'm not trying to undermine the system--I'm trying to make these permanent decisions informed decisions.

...what if some people didn't choose either because they were afraid it would affect their character in the future? Not to be the carefree rain cloud on parade day but seriously nobody needs that shit, even just typing it and reading it back is stressful enough, never mind going through that thought process.

In a game that's still in alpha but purportedly won't be wiping characters upon beta or launch, one can't help to ponder the consequences of a permanent decision when half of [the game's] features aren't implemented yet. Okay, if I can create a new character, rush the starter island, hightail it to Sun Vale, and snag druid (or lycan or whatever) with minimal investment to see if I'm ever actually interested in playing a druid, then I'd actually be okay with that. But from what I hear, it's not exactly something you can run off with a sub-level 10 (in anything) character and go grab. Am I mistaken?

Lastly, I feel this only really matters if one of these skillsets prevents you from learning another skillset altogether. It seems like we don't know if they will or won't at this point, but none currently do.

[Tsugumori]

Okay, if I can create a new character, rush the starter island, hightail it to Sun Vale, and snag druid (or lycan or whatever) with minimal investment to see if I'm ever actually interested in playing a druid, then I'd actually be okay with that. But from what I hear, it's not exactly something you can run off with a sub-level 10 (in anything) character and go grab. Am I mistaken?

Well I've been on forums where 'headbutting' and 'challenging' were commonplace but the PG community is above that I believe. Saying that, not trying to place it on a pedestal since I know its not perfect but regardless.. Not trying to have a go or attack or anything, just giving my take, tossing in my two cents.

I completely get what you're saying, I just quoted you as I had points to make etc etc.

Occasionally newbies ask where to get druid and may require help getting it. I've helped a few people get it, warning them profusely about its permanence while making the trek there, just to give them the option of changing their minds en route. You could bring a lvl 1 to sunvale to get druid, some view it as enabling or babying but I view it as 'if someone wants something and I can help them get it, why not.' You can't control what other people want or do, you can only decide for yourself. If you wanted druid on an alt to try it out either myself or someone else would be more than happy to bring you there, as with anyone else that wants to try it.

You are right however, sunvale is a lvl 40-ish zone (roughly), so new players couldn't exactly fight anything there. If they have never been there before they may find it tough to navigate the mobs as well. So no, you're not mistaken - new players would find it difficult to attain on their own.

[Lidocaine]

Well I've been on forums where 'headbutting' and 'challenging' were commonplace but the PG community is above that I believe. Saying that, not trying to place it on a pedestal since I know its not perfect but regardless.. Not trying to have a go or attack or anything, just giving my take, tossing in my two cents.

I completely get what you're saying, I just quoted you as I had points to make etc etc.

I feel you; I have to agree, the community here is pretty great. I haven't felt attacked or anything, just misunderstood--in part, at least, because I also try to address multiple points in my responses even if they aren't 100% relevant. lol

Occasionally newbies ask where to get druid and may require help getting it. I've helped a few people get it, warning them profusely about its permanence while making the trek there, just to give them the option of changing their minds en route. You could bring a lvl 1 to sunvale to get druid...sunvale is a lvl 40-ish zone (roughly), so new players couldn't exactly fight anything there. If they have never been there before they may find it tough to navigate the mobs as well. So no, you're not mistaken - new players would find it difficult to attain on their own.

And that's the core reason as to why I wanted to bring it up for discussion as a gameplay element or design decision. One could assume that druid isn't meant to be attained until you've leveled a previous skill into the 30's or 40's, due to the difficulty of Sunvale. Without a precursor skill or something beyond textboxes to gauge interest in druid, how can one feel good about making the decision to permanently alter his or her character? That is my concern. Not just for myself, but for anyone.

An example solution would be: being able to train Druid up to, but not beyond, a specific level before being blocked from advancement until pledging yourself to the god/goddess and making the decision permanent. Like a sneak peek so you can be like "well I'm glad I didn't go down that road" or "yeah this is exactly what I've been looking for in a skillset!"

Sidebar: Afterall, I really don't think you should be able to undo a permanent change unless the devs made a fundamental alteration to how the skillset worked or something like that--a situation where devs would issue a respec in other games, basically.

[Khariel]

Right, this was my fault for kinda derailing my own thread. The mention about getting a character re-customization token only applied to race/cosmetic choices made upon creation and had nothing to do with skills or other permanent choices made throughout the game. I only brought it up in reference to what the previous person said; it is unrelated to what I'm talking about regarding permanent alterations like druid or lycanthropy.



I agree. I apologize if I got off track by addressing other things people have stated, but I'm not trying to undermine the system--I'm trying to make these permanent decisions informed decisions.



In a game that's still in alpha but purportedly won't be wiping characters upon beta or launch, one can't help to ponder the consequences of a permanent decision when half of [the game's] features aren't implemented yet. Okay, if I can create a new character, rush the starter island, hightail it to Sun Vale, and snag druid (or lycan or whatever) with minimal investment to see if I'm ever actually interested in playing a druid, then I'd actually be okay with that. But from what I hear, it's not exactly something you can run off with a sub-level 10 (in anything) character and go grab. Am I mistaken?

Lastly, I feel this only really matters if one of these skillsets prevents you from learning another skillset altogether. It seems like we don't know if they will or won't at this point, but none currently do.

If you have the councils to get to Sunvale, you can absolutely run and get Druid without leveling much as soon as you get off the Starter island. You have to plan your route, or get an escort, but you can.

Just because it is possible however, doesn't mean it's easy. I did it. It took some doing, but I managed to get over there mostly alone. There were a few people killing things in the zone, so I did take advantage of the hole they made in the spawns, but I could have gone around.


But yes, I agree that we need to know if obtaining a certain skill will lock you out of another.

[Elenoe]

But yes, I agree that we need to know if obtaining a certain skill will lock you out of another.

Curious.. are there even some disadvantages to druids? I mean I see red labels about how "permanent" it is but that's completely useless warning. Gaining +1 Strength in most games is "permanent" too.

The only reason warning actually means something is when they tell you what they "permanently" lock you out from. Things you will need to deal with if you make that choice. Doesn't need to be "full disclosure". You don't get that in RL as well and you need to make decisions and then live with it. But are there at least something that makes "being druid" more permanent then getting Basic Shot 2, which is permanent too but no warnings about it?

(I understand lycantrophy better. It says it locks you in the wolf form for three days and you get vulnerability/inability to use silver things. That's the proper "permanent" things you need to agree with when you go through warnings. But I can't even find anything about druids that would make warning signs any relevant. Sounds more like generic warning: "You should be careful when you go to work today". "Why? What happens?", you may ask. "Just be careful that's all." Just so when you get hit by car you could hear "but I told you you should be careful, you were warned, twice")

[Lidocaine]

The only reason warning actually means something is when they tell you what they "permanently" lock you out from. Things you will need to deal with if you make that choice. Doesn't need to be "full disclosure". You don't get that in RL as well and you need to make decisions and then live with it. But are there at least something that makes "being druid" more permanent then getting Basic Shot 2, which is permanent too but no warnings about it?

Exactly! I was thinking on it last night, and you hit the nail on the head.

[Tsugumori]

Curious.. are there even some disadvantages to druids? I mean I see red labels about how "permanent" it is but that's completely useless warning. Gaining +1 Strength in most games is "permanent" too.

The only reason warning actually means something is when they tell you what they "permanently" lock you out from.

Well in this game 'strength' is subjective. Some people don't see druid as worth getting or they just straight up don't like it - it's their prerogative.

New players, (some of them anyway), heed the warnings entering boss rooms, the red flashes, the text appearing. They don't ignore that. (For the most part...)

The warnings for lycanthropy and druid, (and whatever permanent skills are yet to be revealed), I don't think they should ever include what they clash with. I think the player should have to do the research. Through the world, reading books, talking to relevant NPCs. Gather the information yourself.

That said... I think Permanent choices should have a 'switch-in & out' feature. Let's talk hypotheticals:

"I'm a wolf, I want to be a wolfvampire! Oh no... These clash? That sucks."

In this scenario I believe with perhaps 'relevant sacrifices' you could maybe exchange one permanence for another. Consider taking on one of the permanent skills as taking on a particularly difficult job. You can't change the dynamic of the job - but you can choose how to approach it.

"So okay, I'm a vampire now. But I lost wolf rights. Okie"

You want back into wolf? Go get them sacrifices ready.

[Khariel]

With the switching between clashing permanent choices thing... I think there should be a cost beyond the material for doing it. I think you should give up everything associated with the skill when you drop it. That means (for example) if you give up being a wolf, you lose all howling, beast metabolism, and lycanthropy xp gained. The reason for this is that, when you're a wolf, it's not just that you are a wolf. You deal with the werewolf goddess. I imagine she would not be happy to see you giving up her gift. So to get back in her favor, you have to start over from scratch (or claw in this case... We're not pokemon!)

This would enable people who regret the decision to have a way out of it... but it would also ensure that you didn't go "Ooo, Vampire sounds cool! *switches without thinking it through* Awww, this isn't as fun as I thought... *switches back*" It should be a hard choice to make... Do I give up everything I've fought so hard for to try out this other thing... or do I stick with what I know, and maybe make a new character to try this other thing later.

[Tsugumori]

With the switching between clashing permanent choices thing... I think there should be a cost beyond the material for doing it. I think you should give up everything associated with the skill when you drop it. That means (for example) if you give up being a wolf, you lose all howling, beast metabolism, and lycanthropy xp gained. The reason for this is that, when you're a wolf, it's not just that you are a wolf. You deal with the werewolf goddess. I imagine she would not be happy to see you giving up her gift. So to get back in her favor, you have to start over from scratch (or claw in this case... We're not pokemon!)

This would enable people who regret the decision to have a way out of it... but it would also ensure that you didn't go "Ooo, Vampire sounds cool! *switches without thinking it through* Awww, this isn't as fun as I thought... *switches back*" It should be a hard choice to make... Do I give up everything I've fought so hard for to try out this other thing... or do I stick with what I know, and maybe make a new character to try this other thing later.

I agree and disagree. I do think it should be a hurdle, both practically and lore wise, which is why I suggested sacrifices. XP (i.e Experience) isn't something you lose, it's a combination of things you have witnessed and overcome. So I don't think you can just 'lose it' all. That said, I do think that Norala would have some monumental demands of her puppers that went astray. Knowing how the Altar quests go I'd imagine it'd be kill quests to prove your worth before being granted walf status again.

So quests/rare item sacrifice gets > simply losing all XP. (Even if the 'XP removal' were a thing to be considered, I think it should be a flat amount or % of current XP as opposed to it all. So maybe a 10 level hit initially? (- this number grows the more you switch?)