Tailoring /animal

[Coglin]

Using real world already exists within the game ( humanoids milking cows is that not what we do in RL ?

Yeah, "some" real-world rules apply, such as milk comes from cows. None the less, it is intellectually dishonest to suggest game changes or game aspects should be designed around reality when you want milk, but fantasy when you want to shoot magic from your fingertips and destroy something with fire or run fast with psychic power. It certainly is not consistent to want different rule sets of the game to be changed in some ways for your personal convenience.

What I am saying unequivocally is that mollusk milk is a issue for all , by far more so for some animals then for others !!!!
All facts and not some rhyme !!!

it is? You are unequivocally incorrect. I have literally hundreds of Fea Silk. Multiple members of my guild have hundreds of fae Silk. I mean, sure, if you have an opinion or perspective, discuss it, but it doesn't help the discussion to dishonestly claim to speak for others, especially "everyone"...

[poulter]

You might want to consider that animal forms are very much 'work in progress' and their design has evolved over the years.
In 2016, best healing class was pig, best tank was a cow.
Only Citan knows what happens next.

Originally, animal forms were intended to be curses.
Then they became forms for experienced players (level 40+).

Make polite suggestions of changes you want and Citan might just deliver it one day or year.

[Sheawanna]

First off RL skills already exist within the game already . FACT . the fact that I suggest nursing so animals can attain certain things , does not equate to me wanting things to be like RL . Nor am I wanting animals to be OP . But the fact is animals have far more hardships then humanoids . You can spout all the benefits all you like . I've played numerous non animal combat skills . And every single animal .. I know the benefits and the drawbacks . I get it ! animals lives are harder . I have no issue with most if not all of those drawbacks . But the FACT that all Tailoring and even some toolcrafting requires fae silk does not make it fair . ( I don't require fair in game play ) . but the determents are now (IMHO) leaving out a sect of players . You may disagree that's fine your entitled to your opinion . You want to say give you example of RL in game I Gave top one there are far more . yet you still want to instigate things . My greatest apologizes for wanting to give you a cardboard cookie ..

My guess is anything outside of your thoughts are simply illusions !!!
Lets agree to disagree and move on
I am not asking for no ruleset change :P Get it animals don't have hands , but we have mouths which I will use :P

[Coglin]

First off RL skills already exist within the game already . FACT . the fact that I suggest nursing so animals can attain certain things , does not equate to me wanting things to be like RL .

I agree that does not equate to you wanting things to be like real life, you literally used real-life nursing comparisons to justify demanding real word rule see apply in this specific demand you desire.

Nor am I wanting animals to be OP . But the fact is animals have far more hardships then humanoids . You can spout all the benefits all you like . I've played numerous non animal combat skills . And every single animal .. I know the benefits and the drawbacks . I get it ! animals lives are harder . I have no issue with most if not all of those drawbacks . But the FACT that all Tailoring and even some toolcrafting requires fae silk does not make it fair . ( I don't require fair in game play )

Fair? You appear to me to feel what is fair revolves around your personal wants here. You want the physical damage mitigation of cow, that no other class has access to anything resembling that benefit. It is fair that no other class has that, but not fair that those without access to it can get mollusk milk.

You appear to confuse your subjective opinion for that of actual objective fact. You literally use the word "fact" as you go on to share your opinion of what is fair. That doesn't seem to me as if you are seeking balance or well being of specific classes at that point.

. but the determents are now (IMHO) leaving out a sect of players . You may disagree that's fine your entitled to your opinion . You want to say give you example of RL in game I Gave top one there are far more . yet you still want to instigate things . My greatest apologizes for wanting to give you a cardboard cookie ..

You actually literally didn't give any functioning real-life comparison that exists. Though I think you missed my point. My point is that it is not particularly logical to cite real-world logic as a source of reasoning to make design discussions in a fantasy game in which real-life limitations do not apply.

As to your "cardboard cookie" reference, I do not know what you are trying to say or mean with that.

My guess is anything outside of your thoughts are simply illusions !!!
Lets agree to disagree and move on
I am not asking for no ruleset change :P Get it animals don't have hands , but we have mouths which I will use :P

Why is it that anyone who disagrees with you only has "thoughts that are simply illusions"? Because I disagree with you that animals should have access to milk mollusk my thoughts on the matter are illusions?

Cow gets
Max Health +275, Max Power +85, Crushing Damage Reduction +10, Piercing Damage Reduction +10, Slashing Damage Reduction +10 and cannot milk mollusk.

Almost all non-animal forms get
Max Health +200, Max Power +95, and can milk mollusk.

If those benefits are not worth not milking mollusk then get out of animal form and do not play an animal form?

[alleryn]

Cow gets
Max Health +275, Max Power +85, Crushing Damage Reduction +10, Piercing Damage Reduction +10, Slashing Damage Reduction +10 and cannot milk mollusk.

Almost all non-animal forms get
Max Health +200, Max Power +95, and can milk mollusk.

The milk mollusk has to do with what form you are in. The max health and power have to do with what skill you have equipped, which is a separate decision.

Of course you must be in cow form to equip Cow skill, but that also puts Cow skills on your skill bar instead of some (potentially more or less valuable) skill. A cow with Mentalism/Warden (say) equipped doesn't get any max health bonus over a humanoid.

So i feel like you are conflating things a bit here.

[Coglin]

The milk mollusk has to do with what form you are in. The max health and power have to do with what skill you have equipped, which is a separate decision.

Of course you must be in cow form to equip Cow skill, but that also puts Cow skills on your skill bar instead of some (potentially more or less valuable) skill. A cow with Mentalism/Warden (say) equipped doesn't get any max health bonus over a humanoid.

So i feel like you are conflating things a bit here.

Yeah, you can only use warden in animal form. Hence the boon of access to warden. When in beast form with that beast skill on your bar you get the boon of the option of warden and the benefits of the specific form. Honestly, I feel like the point you made really just re-enforces my point.

[alleryn]

Honestly, I feel like the point you made really just re-enforces my point.

Maybe using warden as an example muddied the waters.

Look at it this way (i'm not trying to weigh in on the overall pros/cons of being an animal here, only attempting to address the argument that being a cow gives you an advantage over a humanoid because of the raw stats):

A cow with mentalism/psych has no stat bonuses over a humanoid, but still has the milking penalty.

To get the stat bonuses you have to take Cow skill. So then you have to ask not do the stat bonuses outweigh the inability to milk / other drawbacks of animal form, but do the stat bonuses on Cow/X outweigh the inability to milk/etc drawbacks on Skill combo X/Y.

I know this probably isn't the clearest explanation, but i think there was some kind of logical void in there that i wanted to address.

To me it really isn't clear that a cow has a combat advantage over a humanoid since i don't really believe the Cow skillset to be the strongest one. I feel like the max health on the cow might not contribute enough to make up even for the "superior" skill a humanoid gets to choose, before you even get to the non-combat drawbacks. Or maybe it does, i don't know.

[Coglin]

Maybe using warden as an example muddied the waters.

Look at it this way (i'm not trying to weigh in on the overall pros/cons of being an animal here, only attempting to address the argument that being a cow gives you an advantage over a humanoid because of the raw stats):

A cow with mentalism/psych has no stat bonuses over a humanoid, but still has the milking penalty.

To get the stat bonuses you have to take Cow skill. So then you have to ask not do the stat bonuses outweigh the inability to milk / other drawbacks of animal form, but do the stat bonuses on Cow/X outweigh the inability to milk/etc drawbacks on Skill combo X/Y.

I know this probably isn't the clearest explanation, but i think there was some kind of logical void in there that i wanted to address.

To me it really isn't clear that a cow has a combat advantage over a humanoid since i don't really believe the Cow skillset to be the strongest one. I feel like the max health on the cow might not contribute enough to make up even for the "superior" skill a humanoid gets to choose, before you even get to the non-combat drawbacks. Or maybe it does, i don't know.

Yes, but in cow form, since that seems to be a running example here, you have the boon of self milking and exponential access to milk that humanoids do not have. So by the arguments thus far, humanoids should be able to draw bottles of milk from thin air for themselves as well for equivalency. So cows can either milk themselves or mollusk. Both are an unreasonable boon to cow form.

As to your reference to the cow skill being active itself, you suggest the combat advantage really isn't clear, yet I literally listed the stat differentials. The physical resistance to crushing, slashing and piercing combined with 75 more hit points over humanoids is a vast combat advantage in my opinion.

[alleryn]

As to your reference to the cow skill being active itself, you suggest the combat advantage really isn't clear, yet I literally listed the stat differentials. The physical resistance to crushing, slashing and piercing combined with 75 more hit points over humanoids is a vast combat advantage in my opinion.

You still haven't responded directly to my point, which i've mentioned twice now (really the only point i've made), namely that to get this cow stat benefit you also need to put Cow skill on your skillbar, which may or may not outweigh the stat bonuses.

[Roccandil]

From a lore/world perspective, if sentient animals needed something, I'd think they'd go about getting it their own way, not the way of humanoids.

So, based on the world of PG, I could see the sentient animals devising their own versions of crafting skills, customized for their own needs.