There's a new dev blog, all about the new VIP Membership program. You can read it here.
And this is the place for questions and discussion. We're very excited about this! So ask/discuss away.
There's a new dev blog, all about the new VIP Membership program. You can read it here.
And this is the place for questions and discussion. We're very excited about this! So ask/discuss away.
Are there any plans for changes with surveying and current third party tools?
Those without VIP will be at a massive disadvantage.
Can you please explain how that is a massive disadvantage? It takes a few more minutes to complete a batch of surveys...surely that's not it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Avoret
I also wouldn't call it a "massive" disadvantage, we're talking about a single skill amongst a hundred, but to answer the question we haven't really decided anything new there yet, but we're discussing it.
We'd always planned for chat logs to be part of VIP. But you'll note that "chat logs" isn't included in the VIP features blog post... because we're still weighing the pros and cons of changing something that players have already gotten used to having for free.
I am curious the sources of these VIP tokens that are in-game...Quote:
VIP Tokens: These tokens are in-game items that can be consumed by a player to claim 30 days of VIP membership time. The tokens themselves can be used on your own account or given to others. VIP tokens can come from various sources in-game.
Are you planning to use it as a way to remove councils from the economy (example: players could buy from an NPC for a large amount of councils)?
Is there a rare drop chance off certain Monsters?
If I gather really rare materials, can I craft one?
I assume not since it's supposed to be used like patreon...but the way you phrased it....maybe not if you are thinking there are non-monetary ways that players support the development of the game.
VIP Tokens have been available in the game for quite some time now. They have been given out as prizes for a few contests, they can be won in the casino Match-3 games and they are also a standard prize during the MEGA Raffles which are held twice per year. The next one is due next month!Quote:
Originally Posted by PezOfDoom
Ah, so no plans at this point to reward first bug discoveries with a token. Gotcha :)Quote:
Originally Posted by mrwarp
You can also win VIP tokens in the more expensive match-3 game in the casino. The odds are... not good... but it's possible :) It's basically so rare as to be an Easter egg though.
Behind the scenes, VIP tokens were added as a sort of prototype: we wanted to ensure that we could give out VIP time through game items, and VIP tokens are the "implementation detail." We think they make great rare rewards, but we aren't currently imagining that you'd be able to buy them for in-game currency.
Will we be able to use spaces in toon names? Or still one line text
No plans to change what names are allowed. If we ever do allow multi-word names it probably wouldn't be a VIP-specific feature, and it would probably not be part of your "real" name anyway. For instance if you marry a human NPC, perhaps you could take their last name. You would be shown to others with both names, like "Bob Newhart", but people would still just /tell Bob hi.
Using one of the available tools, I can complete 150 maps in about 25 minutes. I doubt I'm even very fast at it, others(especially those who can fly) are likely much faster than I am.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrwarp
Without said tools, I'd be spending minutes just trying to figure out which map I'm supposed to go to next out of such a massive pile of maps. Arguably you could presort the maps into the desired route you want to take, but this would likely take more time than completing all the maps using the help of said tools.
/tell Norman_Borden_the_Mormon_Doorman Moo Goo Gai PanQuote:
Originally Posted by Citan
Citan you of all people should know better than to give McNasty any ideas on a second name. hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Citan
Thinking further on it, the additional alts gives a VIP a pretty big advantage relating to milk gathering and milk related things. Probably not that big of a deal overall, but is there any plans to limit that kind of harvesting to only the non-vip slot characters of an account?
Looks OK to me, the only thing I am not convinced about are the character slots. Or to be more precise, VIP to be the *only* way of having additional character slots.
- If my membership runs out while I don't have the time to take care about the order of my characters, I will be required to refresh it. Especially if you consider that some of the VIP features aim at people who cannot play that consistently.
- Even if I get the order right, it means that if I want to have access to more than 4 characters reliably, I need a permanent subscription. In a game that plans on having unlockable races, this is especially restrictive. 3 base races + 3 races that need to be unlocked in the first place, each with their own capabilities with potentially large impacts (for example fairies having additional abilities for KF, Ment) -> this seems like a bad idea.
- This is the first MMO I have seen where character slots are included in a subscription (and are therefore not permanent). Granted I have played maybe 3 other titles myself, but I think that character slots should be something you unlock/buy on a permanent basis. You can probably add them in a VIP subscription (more stuff is always nice), but I think this game needs some additional slots on a permanent basis as well. Personally I am pretty sure I would buy 1 or 2 given the chance.
What is so bad about extra character slots and extra inventory slots in a non-pvp game? What sort of balance is meant to be uphold by not having that? The amount of exp you can get in all skills is finite, sure the autodidactism skill could be handy, but it probably wont outperform a player that runs with AH/skill-to-be-trained. Or even just running trainer/trainer in a qatik daily once in a while, totally possible with the sidebar skills that do dmg, and a group that just steamrolls anyway.
They say its a soft launch of ViP anyways, prob gonna get some itirations if they so choose.
I'm not really a fan of the VIP systems in games in general. There is no way to make a VIP system that feels worth it enough to get but not so worth it that you don't feel like you're missing out by not having it. Either it sucks and no one wants it, or it's good and everyone will want it but some won't have it and will have a worse gaming experience because of it.
Selling inventory slots and character slots is a perfect example of creating a problem and selling the solution. The devs are actively capping your inventory in the hopes you will feel like you don't have enough space and will be enticed to buy VIP. And this is how this kind of system starts. If not enough people buy VIP they will have to start doing other things to entice you to buy it. XP boosts, currency boosts, log in rewards, and so on are examples of what they will eventually have to add if VIP isn't successful enough. There is no finding the right balance here. There is no right balance. You either don't need VIP and the system will be basically unused or you will feel like you need it for "convenience" and then it's just a matter of if you can afford it or not.
I honestly like the idea of the new skill but hiding it behind a paywall is pure and simple pay to win. There is literally no reason not to use this skill when not playing. Except maybe if you want to do a specific hang out I guess. So essentially what you've actually added is an xp boost system dressed up and disguised as something else. Sure it's a bit difficult to use as you have to level it up, but that's what it is, an xp boost.
So what would my solution be? Make the game free to play up to level 10 or 20. Kinda like how the demo is now. Then add a monthly subscription that everyone must have to play the game beyond that point. I know this probably won't be popular with everyone and especially newer MMO players but this system allows players to always be on equal footing. It's basically the only way to do a monthly sub where there aren't pay to win elements added on.
The other option I guess would be to make VIP purely cosmetic. Fancy VIP dyes, VIP character models, VIP armor/weapon skins, etc. I personally am not a big fan of this system because it always ends up with VIP having the best looking items and you don't earn them, you just buy them with your money. So maybe, make it a VIP crafting skill with items that only you can use, or make it so VIPs can do certain quests that non-VIPs can't that allow you to unlock these cosmetics and make the quest chain long and difficult. That way you aren't just handed the best looking gear but you still need VIP to get it. And I'm talking purely looks. This should be some sort of transfmog if you go this route.
As someone who really really hates P2W in games I was very worried about the VIP system, but honestly it's not as bad as I thought. Any sort of game play advantage you can buy for real money constitutes p2w and therefore the VIP system certainly qualifies, but the "Amount" of p2w from a microtransaction can vary greatly (Ex. Buying 100000 gold for 1$ is "more" p2w than buying 100 gold for 1$) and personally I don't believe the VIP system is that big of a deal from what it sounds like (Unless AutoD gives tons of exp or something). Here's my logic for it by trying to determine the gold value of the VIP system:
The biggest advantage for longer term players is most likely going to be the extra inventory slots, since it's basically like an extra piece of pocket gear which doesn't take up a precious equipment slot. I think the absolute minimum price of such a thing would probably be the equivalent of 20k (Since that's about what a pocket piece of gear would sell for). However since it doesn't take up an equipment slot it's most likely much more valuable than that as there are no downsides to using it (And therefore "Optimally" you would always want it). As a highball estimate, +15 slots means +15 items each time you do a dungeon run, which could be ~7-15k per run, meaning that if you do a dungeon run a day you could be looking at something like 250-500k over the course of a month of playing.
Now that might sound ridiculous, but even with a very optimistic value of 500k extra councils earned per month, the VIP sub still costs 12$, so that would mean you're getting about 41k per dollar spent. If you're playing the game a lot and high enough level to actually earn 500k of of the sub like this, then 41k per dollar isn't really a big deal for what might be ~60 hours to get that value in the first place. If someone is playing 24/7 then it would be more valuable but if someone is grinding their ass off I can't be too upset at them getting more money compared to someone outright buying gold for real money.
I think my biggest problem with the VIP system is probably going to be its impact on newer players to the game, who generally have inventory and storage issues when starting. Many new players in Gorgon are quickly forced to learn inventory management as their inventory clogs quickly, and some of them can get frustrated at it. If VIP is presented as an option to alleviate this issue, then I worry that these players will see the game as p2w. Going back to the gold comparison, my minimum estimated gold value of 20k isn't impressive for a long term player, but 20k is a LOT to a beginner. Because of this I think the VIP system will almost certainly look like heavy p2w to players just starting out and I worry if it will affect how people perceive the game.
Just because a game is primarily PvE doesn't mean p2w isn't a thing. The biggest problem is mostly just the frustration that you might be having a lot more troubles playing just because you aren't paying money. Like for example if you're having inventory issues due to limited carrying space but each time you see the "Inventory full" message you're reminded that every VIP player wouldn't have your problem. This is what usually sells these sorts of things in the first place but it makes the game less fun. It's not about balance in that other people are "Beating" you for having VIP, it's about how they're playing a different game than you, it's easier, and they're being "rewarded" in the same way which cheapens your experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprurvur
Just as a comparison, people who like PG feel pretty accomplished for hitting max level in all sorts of skills because it takes a lot of work and effort. If PG started selling max level boosts then this would feel like a punch in the gut to those people because even if they know they "Earned" their levels, everyone else wouldn't know whether they got their max level legitimately or if they just paid for it.
I hope you're not suggesting that the devs take away the game we already paid full price for and make us pay a monthly sub to continue playing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drex
The devs could add 100 slots and players could fill them and then ask for more. If they were removing slots from players then selling our old inventory slot count, you would have a point. But the game has been played and balanced for years around the current non-VIP inventory slot number and the inability to export text files.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drex
PG has technically had log in rewards for ages. Or more, log out rewards via hang-outs. The other fears you have about changes if the VIP isnt successful enough absolutely applies to games owned by private equity firms, but I don't think it applies here. The fears about if the VIP system failing is moot because, from what I've read, the dev team has been extraordinarily careful with the funds they've earned from backers and purchasers and they can continue to make PG at their current rate of development indefinitely. But I get that sounds a lot like marketing speak, ergo people will have a hard time believing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drex
The solutions you offered, I think, would make the subscription a more significant change and would probably tank the community. Most players around level 35 are not invested in the game enough to sub.
And regarding the other posts about surveying to the impressively efficient person: One possible fix would be to remove the distance message from everyone's chat all together. Instead, make clicking the recipe open a window (like words of power) that has the distance in an auto-updating format. It would make doing 125 surveys harder for everyone, but it would be harder evenly.
The difference here is that they are adding the additional slots for money. Giving an advantage to players that can afford it. It might not be a big advantage, but it's still an advantage all the same. That's the main issue I have, adding systems to games that give players any level of advantage by making them pay for it with real money. Now if there were say, a way to pay for those extra slots with in game money, but VIP gives them for free, that would at least be a little better, and technically I guess that could be possible if players are able to trade the VIP tokens. But it sounds like the tokens are going to be pretty rare and as such will be super expensive to buy most likely. So only the top players will be able to afford them while new players or casuals probably will never be able to, so they have to open their wallets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbaums
The hang outs are fine. You don't have to pay for them. Log in rewards on their own are fine, I don't care about them, but if they tie it to the VIP system, it'll be an issue. But that's hypothetical since they may never do that. The issue with the idea that they are fine with money is that they said themselves they are planning to hire a team now. That funding will be gone very quickly if they are hiring new devs to work on the game. There's no way the small amount of money they have received will be enough, thus why they announced hiring new devs at the same time as they announced the VIP system. The link is obvious there. The VIP system is there to hopefully fund the new devs. So what happens if people don't buy VIP? They fire the new devs? They keep them and make VIP more desirable? Both are very possible options here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbaums
I mean, depending on the sub price, I don't think it would tank the community that badly or at all. But that option is just the one I prefer. You could still have a VIP system that's cosmetic only too, but that has its flaws as well. There's no perfect system out there, but I do think that the current VIP idea isn't the best option. At least in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbaums
I mean, it's not like that's not something that has never been done before. All older MMOs used that exact same model. New ones still do that with expansions all the time. It's really not that unrealistic of an expectation for a game that is constantly being updated with new content. Your initial purchase has gone way beyond what you initially bought by now depending on when you bought it.Quote:
Originally Posted by YAFFY
Anyway, if that bothers you, they could easily add some sort of reward for early adopters of the game that paid the price. Many other MMOs have done this in the past. Just give players something equal to the price of the game. They could give X months of game time for example.
Or they could just make it so players that bought the game have access to the full current game but any future content will be locked behind the subscription.
Or if they just went with a cosmetic only subscription method, that would be fine too. It's when people start to get an advantage for a subscription that I start to have an issue.
The hype is real!
The offered benefits sound fine for me and I don't think its a huge advantage at all.
btw I love the game and just play to have fun.
Keep up the good work!
The two things of concern going in were inventory and character slots.
Re inventory: 15 slots is fine. While I agree that it might give a bad impression to newbies, for veterans, it just means a little bit more efficient phlogging/decomposing. Something a few of you are missing is that players don't just put items on the ground at a total loss, if a VIP and non-VIP are playing together until they fill up, they'll likely stay until the VIP fills up while the non-VIP breaks down items at a modest loss (thinking blues/reds).
Re character slots: Abuse potential. Milk prices will collapse and other timegated features become slightly more trivial. People will be doing glowy yellows, growing mushrooms, ice fishing, etc on eight characters in no time. I've always been a critic of the snail milk system (seriously, why is an ingredient for cloth rarer than the hq item/vervadium?) but if I can collect it on 3-4 accounts, it'll be tolerable. 8 slots lets us do everything though, so yay.
We should be able to rate our alts so we can go out of VIP without potentially being screwed. I get that it's a simple process of logging into them, but I'm sure people will go out of VIP a day before they expect and be forced to pay $12 to re-rank their alts with extreme resentment. This is an easy issue you guys can avoid ahead of time.
I don't get the hand-waving about a few extra inventory slots. It's hardly game breaking.
They got to pay for the cost of operating the game some how. What's the alternative, a full subscription model? I don't think that would grow the player base that quickly.
Can players trade VIP tokens? It would be a huge incentive for non-VIP players to grind cash to be able to afford them, hence more ingame activity.
No questions from me, it all seems pretty straightforward.
I quite like incoming the VIP program additions, and none of it to me seems game-breaking. We already knew extra character slots were going to be part of VIP, and the extra inventory will help a lot...but again, doesn't seem excessive. To me, anyway. For example, endurance and pocketed armor/belts are already the main way to vastly increase personal carrying capacity from the start, with additional things like storage crates, pocket dimensions, power words, potions and so on providing even more. (I already carry around a 'Nice' storage crate—16 slots in that.)
And I'm looking forward to trying the non-fiction writing and autodidacticism skills. My low-level alts could really use the help.
The only thing I would not recommend is Citan's suggested/floated 'special custom chat color,' in terms of future VIP program updates. Seems too much in people's faces and could create bad feelings. When I run into someone in-game, I'd prefer not to know just by looking at them or seeing their chat-text whether they are or aren't currently VIP.
Yes they can be traded, but they are extremely rare and there's no reliable way to farm them. A couple examples of how they are obtained are: winning a major in-game event or winning a (truly difficult to achieve) jackpot in the casino.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumdidum
Is the patch still coming today?
NVM I just saw the in-game message
I wasnt formulating my question very well. Instead of buying VIP, cant you make it so that you buy VIP tokens. The buyer can then decide to either use said token himself or to trade it on the player market.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvonis
Either way you as a company will get the $$$, and the playerbase has an incentive to use excessive counsils for something useful if they so choose.
Also, i am hugely in favor of making everything you sell in your shop also available to non-paying players. So if you decide to put character slots behing a paywall, please consider also making them available for counsils, or by rewards based on time played or w/e else. You can make it as hard as you wish to obtain if you do not pay, but please make it so that it is obtainable nevertheless.
There's a problem with making VIP tokens both able to be bought and then traded. As noted, some people will buy them to sell to other players.
Being able to pay real money for councils has now been enabled.
Edit: missed that Mikhalia was responding to a poster requesting this functionality - leaving my original post, but the point is rather moot.
I've seen comments like this going around, but I haven't seen anything to suggest the sale of VIP tokens, but rather that they'll only be available from things like Match-3 (good luck) and mega raffles in twice a year. I agree this would be problematic, but it isn't the direction the game seems to be going. I don't mind them being trade-able if they're super rare finds that can't be bought w/ $Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhaila
The problem with those kinds of (incorrect) statements is that new players will be seeking information on the game, or VIP specifically, and be misinformed by random fear mongering. It is not possible to purchase VIP Tokens, unless another player has acquired them through VERY rare circumstances and feels inclined to sell them for councils (not IRL money).
duplicate post
I was replying to the post above saying they wished that we could buy them. I'm against that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deldaron
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumdidum
With going VIP you already enabled dollar to counsils...just make 8 alts (which VIP allows) and do every industry work order 8 times instead of 4 times (with little extra effort i might add after you levelled industry, cause you can simply buy most resources needed for wo's from player stalls and still make loads of profit).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhaila
Granted, it is not as direct, but if you allow VIP members to make more counsils from having VIP, you might as well share the love.
This is also why VIP is pay to play. I know this is not a popular opinion, but as soon as i can carry more items in dungeons, do work orders multiple times more, milk more, do 4x more event runs, i will make way more counsils than the next guy. Does that matter? In a way yes,. because while i do not care that you are wealthier than me, we share a common market, and more counsils will always lead to inflated prices, hence i wont be getting the resources i need unless i put way more effort into it. Hence a different playing field.
I have no doubt this post will not change the opinion of the devs tho - I have seen and played around 40 MMO's in my life and VIP, or cash shops, or w/e idea that gets implemented to generate income to game developpers, eventually hurts the game. There are very few examples of cash shops or VIP schemes done well. Path of Exile to name one (not really a MMO but ok).
You mention that you believe that Path of Exile has done well with their cash shop implementation, yet a simple Google search shows pages upon pages of people complaining about PoE being p2w.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumdidum
It's just like any decision, there's always going to be people who like it and those who don't.
We believe we are doing our best to make the benefits worthwhile while not significantly effecting gameplay.
The argument about 4 more character slots being a worth a lot ignores so many things. Firstly that you could just buy a second account to do the same thing and for far less money than VIP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumdidum
Next is the idea that time has no value. The time it takes to level up 4 characters to do work orders is significant. As is the time to log each one in to do the work orders. About the only thing i can see being easy to do is milking cows. Even then, during in the time it takes to log in those alts and milk the cows you could have just killed a few wolves or sheep and made as much off skinning them.
You talk about 'a different playing field'. The real difference is someone who has the time to level 8 characters up and do work orders. If you have that much time to play, you already have all the resources you need.
Full reply disclaimer: I feel like I'm replying to say it's all non-issues to possibly give some context incase you convince some lesser informed gaming journalist or someone new to PG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumdidum
I think you are acting like doing 4 extra sets of work orders is nothing and milk is pure gold (as in not filled 8 for 1350 lol) and dungeon quests runs take no time at all. Yeah, potentially the councils are on the table but the frenzy isnt there. As is, the amount of players churning out the ~40million councils across 4 characters a month is so small it's a non issue. There are not more because it's just such a massive upfront time investment and the organization demand is significant.
The game is actually small enough where, come to think of it, I don't believe there are ANY players that truly maximize every resource specific to each character slot. If this did become an issue where PG turns into Work Order Simulator, the monthly work order cool down could just be locked to once per account or each additional turn in could increase the monthly cool down.
In the end, I think you (or someone) should absolutely try and turn in every single work order, collect milk, and glowy yellow crystal across 4 characters and use that council to buy a VIP token and then do it across 8 characters. I'd love to see a post of someone doing that and tracking their progress /methods and just taking it to the extreme. Even if you did get everything setup, I expect by month 3 you would go absolutely insane.
I already do industry on 4 chars - it takes me about 30 mins of work each month to earn an estimated 1 mil extra profit from quickly buying stuff on player stalls to fill those specific wo's and then turn them in.
So that would be what, 45 mins on 8 chars? for 2 mil each month. And thats when i put zero effort into it.
So the whole "allowing players to sell VIP tokeens to other players enables dollar-to-cousil abuse" is moot cause we have it with this VIP system.
My initial request was to let non-VIP players have a way, how painful as it may be (tons and tons of counsils or longwinded quests or time played), to aquire what VIP players get with dollars. I do not see that being answered by anyone.
Why so eager to split your player base into two tiers?
It sort of works both ways though. On the one hand, you are worried about players with VIP going nuts and farming a ton of councils with their VIP status, but I think another poster here brought up a good point. It's cheaper to just buy another account and skip VIP altogether if you are a "power gamer" who wants to be rich.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumdidum
On the other hand, making it possible to buy VIP status with in-game currency incentivizes the "farming" of councils by "power gamers" and has a large impact on the availability/rarity/price of player sold goods and the sources of these raw materials. Incentivizing this type of "farming" behavior makes it more difficult for players of all types to acquire common goods and it affects the entire gaming community.
Both choices have an impact on the gaming community, but the limited benefit VIP status doesn't have as much affect as people are making it out to have. I guess the real question is what Project Gorgon's stance is on multi-boxing. If you can make a second or third account for less than the VIP membership cost, then why wouldn't you go that path if your main concern is maximizing your personal benefit.
The only reason I can think that this is such a big deal to people is they want to have a way to use these alternate accounts to unlock free VIP time on their mains, which has essentially already been suggested by a few people here. Although, the VIP time isn't even that good to begin with. Personally, the only reason I subscribe to VIP is to support the game, I don't see it as giving me an edge in any way. I'm open to hearing other reasons why people are so upset about this, but all I can think is that the "uproar" is caused by the heavy gamers who view VIP membership as a status symbol they aren't even willing to pay for. These gamers feel that they deserve it for free because they are so good at collecting vidya game money.