Conversations: On groups, Druids, Dungeons, Lock Out

The truth is that they grouped for bosses, and now if you're not in a pre-arranged group, you're not going to be invited.

You're going to be told that they want someone better. And despite Khay's argument there are over-leveled players in lower level dungeons.

Any time you have a group limited by player numbers, that group will optimize to have the best players available. Players available will often include over-leveled - because you have over-leveled players in Guilds, as friends, needing some random drop in the dungeon, or just need cash.

Over-leveled players may not want to go to lower level dungeons, but they do that to solo already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crissa

I can solo anywhere but the bosses in the Goblin dungeon. And despite that I can hear that there are solos and groups attacking bosses in that dungeon, I didn't get an invite until I realized I couldn't even damage The Fog and said so on Global and someone took pity on me. Someone over-leveled who was farming, solo'd The Fog for me and let me follow them around. An experience that has been repeated time and again in pretty much every dungeon lately.

I haven't had an at-level group since the locking was added.

---

Motivations:
Friend needs to level
Pity
Need to farm cash solo anyhow
Someone in Guild needs help
Leveling Guild members
Leveling Friends
Boredom
Need a random drop from that dungeon anyhow
It's kinda bad-ass to solo bosses

'No motivation for Khay' ≠ 'no motivations exist'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crissa

The truth is that they grouped for bosses, and now if you're not in a pre-arranged group, you're not going to be invited.

You're going to be told that they want someone better. And despite Khay's argument there are over-leveled players in lower level dungeons.

---

Did I say there weren't?! There's no sense in having a conversation if you're not actually reading what other people say...for the last time (and i do hate typing the same thing 3 times) I said HIGH LEVEL PLAYERS HAVE NO INCENTIVE/MOTIVATION TO JOIN A LOW LEVEL GROUP. Ofc they can SOLO but that's not what I keep typing, is it?
I thought we were talking about group members limit and loot lock anyway?...

No offense meant but you've been around a while, how can you not solo the Fog? :confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FURY

PS: This is a conversation for all of us, so lets all get along eh? We all just want to have fun.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crissa

'No motivation for Khay' ≠ 'no motivations exist'.

---

Quote:

---

Did I say there weren't?! There's no sense in having a conversation if you're not actually reading what other people say...for the last time (and i do hate typing the same thing 3 times) I said HIGH LEVEL PLAYERS HAVE NO INCENTIVE/MOTIVATION TO JOIN A LOW LEVEL GROUP. Ofc they can SOLO but that's not what I keep typing, is it?
I thought we were talking about group members limit and loot lock anyway?...


No offense meant but you've been around a while, how can you not solo the Fog?

---

If you two are quite done having a shouting match ANDderailing the thread, we can have some constructive conversation, hm?


now...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by takatoka

i think it's important, when discussing any of these pertinent issues, that solutions have to be geared towards larger populations. the game doesnt have a large player base now, but i would anticipate huge leaps in population when the game goes public and early access. this in turn leads to the eternal quandry: keeping the game alive and vivid for new players, while at the same time improving/adding content (as well as fixing long-standing bugs & system issues) for the veteran player,..


it has also been my experience that dungeon play so far still accommodates newer players grouping to tackle difficult content, while at the same both general and guild both seem to be very willing to have older players running younger players thru dungeons for curse-removal and tagging specific skills (like necromancy)


not sure i had any point to this other than my two cents

---

I agree that any changes should consider a population boom in the near future (hopefully), which adds complexities. We can't know for sure how the game will react to +1000 players simply because we have never had that amount playing at once. Hopefully we can see something that will give grouping meaning while also keeping them from causing problems for groups in the same zone.

What would you suggest to help? I think a better/faster release on locked mobs could help (as soon as a player isnt in combat the mob loses the lock) so that would prevent drive by locking with AOE skills, but there are quite a few other things that could be addresses aswell. Never hurts to offer suggestions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khaylara

No offense meant but you've been around a while, how can you not solo the Fog? :confused:

---

Apparently it's fairly resistant to bludgeoning. And Psychology doesn't actually do enough damage to take down an elite. Who would've thunk? Also, my combat skills are only 40-ish. Which is why I've replied to this thread repeatedly of my experience grouping lately.

One thing we don't have that other games do have is a system for finding groups or groups finding extras. The best we can do is shout it in Global, which works for small numbers of players, but isn't really optimal. Perhaps some sort of sorting system where we could join in on different groups and dungeons from afar? Like, I'm looking to do level 40 fighting, I could flag some dungeons or elites in a system where others could see that I was looking for that? Maybe with a timer? Or a recipe, since we do everything with recipes...

Basically, we need our version of a dating program so that we can advertise (hopefully on by default) what we'd like to be doing, so others can see that there are six people who want to do said dungeon and easily talk to them so that a group can form? Or so a group can find a fifth or sixth?

Just shouting on Global 'Hey, I'd like to fight something in the 40-50 range' gets me nada, and I don't even care where I go other than it's something to do.

That groups currently look for over-leveled people rather than at-level people is its own problem.

I'm not derailing the thread, we are talking about loot locking and groups being limited at 6 people. My point is that 6 people is adequate in my opinion, opinion which is based on actually running dungeons (I did a lot of nexus, DC and wolf cave when I was leveling). We could have a LFG channel or a board. We can always create a LFG channel and advertise it on Global, I don't know why people don't use that feature. We made a druid channel when druid events were added and no1 is using it, I'm constantly the only user in that chat room.

Loot locking-without it we'd have 21 people running dungeons together again so-although primitive-I think that is a necessary game mechanic. It could be limited at elites and bosses/named mobs though, having that applied to pigs around serbule feels unnecessary.

I'm more of a solo oriented player myself but I think it's important to actually experience grouping at all lvl brackets before deeming a game mechanic unsuitable. From what I can see the main complaint is that people are unable to find groups not that the groups have insufficient members so we are discussing the wrong point. Based on experience I know that Nexus can be run in trio by lvl 45-50 players with decent gear.

I don't really like victim mentality so my suggestion is to look inwards to find the reasons why we can't get groups. Not being on a high horse but any guildies or friends can confirm that I don't join groups unless I feel that I am useful and not being carried. With that out of the way, let's try to look at what would help people find groups:

1. The lack of a dedicated channel/board. Let's make one. Also there's a discord server Fury keeps advertising that could serve that purpose if people were using it.
2. The "same level" argument. This is not actually a valid argument. Two players could be the same level in combat skills but in way different leagues otherwise. Why? Because the newer players oftentimes completely ignore the "passive" skills that bring bonus levels to the combat skills. Some abilities can only be learnt at certain levels. What I mean by that-let's say 2 people are theoretically both level 60 in a combat skill-one has 7 bonus levels the other one has not. The first one would have higher tiers of the combat abilities so even if they theoretically are the same level they're practically not. So combat skill level is definitely NOT the only criteria for "usefulness"
3.Endurance and first aid-people tend to ignore these. Obviously someone who is level 40 combat skill with level 25 endurance will be less useful than someone with level 40 endurance so I would work on that. The same with first aid, being able to ress or threw an amazing healing kit on the tank while they're tanking a boss is essential for group play. No ress=the group members will end up looking at you as a liability only because the long cds make it unfeasible to have players with no ress skill in a higher level dungeon. If people don't have that skill, the group has to oftentimes abandon the run
4.Consumables and buffs-players joining a Lab run w/o food on. They die in 2 AoEs then the rest of the group has to waste resses and diamonds on them only because they refused to level cooking/refused to buy consumables (or got really low level ones in a level 60 dungeon because low gourmand).
5.Character improvement. Although many disagree this game cannot be played doing exclusively combat. And I believe people with that playstyle are the most vocal ones when it comes to "I can't get gear cause I can't find groups". Again, skills like leatherworking, carpentry or even toolcrafting can be leveled in the same time as the combat skill. Some even give bonus points to combat skills on top of crafting the gear you need. There's also few options to barter for gear, running dungeons is not the only way to get gear. It's actually the hardest way to get said gear. How many people let's say in the 30s or 40s brackets actually wear gear that they crafted themselves? Not being in crypt web gear helps when trying to join a goblin dungeon run, you can't blame people for not wanting to add a player who is wearing level 10 gear and they prefer one in level 25 gear.
6.Solo adequate builds in groups. Many focus their builds on solo play (which is normal) but sometimes we have to modify those builds in order to fit in a group. Simple things like dropping a wide range AoE in a crowded dungeon because that can get the group wiped (for example i forgot i had modded range for fire breath and woke up a mesmerized Claudia which could've been a disaster for the group). Be mindful of the group needs, try to have something useful in your build, mass cc, knockback, heal etc. If you know how to play your build in a group you will be invited to groups.
7. The social aspect-nobody likes a player who looks for group in the following terms "Fk this game, nobody wants me, how am I supposed to get gear if you guys don't let me join Lab??" or "Why are you taking these noobs with us?" when they join a group. Yes, that happened:) If you're a nice person chances are you will find people to help you out and overlook your lower skills. But the fact that this community is in general nicer than in other MMOs doesn't mean anyone is entitled to help. For example if anyone asks "Can someone please help me get rid of this curse?" I will go and help if I can but if the line is "no high level is willing to help me??" I will ignore the request.:)

Anyways maybe someone finds these useful, it took a while to type. It's not "teaching" a lesson as it is based on observation and experience. Many players have action MMO experience and find it hard to understand the grouping experience in a more in-depth, non-combat focused game.

edit-please don't pick snippets of my comments and start a detailed explanation about why that's wrong and all that negative bullpoop. All the stuff that I wrote comes from playing experience and if anyone finds it too hard/too long to read that's fine but if you want to take the time to read it, try to take some on board, it does concern grouping and i meant for it to be useful. Imho it's not the game mechanic that needs changing, it's our mentality as testers. If you want something changed offer some valid reasons on why. How does this negatively impact the game experience type of argument...did anyone run X dungeon with 6 people and couldn't do it? Did any groups get in conflict near a boss because of the locking system? That kind of argument:)

Druid Event Idea:
During Druid event, all druids are automatically placed in the same group once they enter the zone, no need to shout out for a group
Make mobs a little tougher requiring at least a few druids to kill, using some type of druid skill (Like Imari mobs require rotskin)
Remove loot from the attacking mobs during druid events
Reward druids based on damage done per kill
After the druid event, players return to the Druid alter for random rewards based on #of kills/damage done (Gold Ore/Copper Ore/Phlog etc...)

Dungeon runs
I think guilds should have an option to increase group size to 10 or 12.
Our guild likes to run quests together and we have a large crew of high end players, we quickly fill the 6 slots for dungeons and leaves us saying sorry folks 6/6 already
Even a guild Zerg option if available. Can always place minimum level requirements on the few dungeons that this impacts

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elkhound

Druid Event Idea:
During Druid event, all druids are automatically placed in the same group once they enter the zone, no need to shout out for a group
Make mobs a little tougher requiring at least a few druids to kill, using some type of druid skill (Like Imari mobs require rotskin)
Remove loot from the attacking mobs during druid events

---

I'd add rewards only with blessings but not based on damage, some have healing builds or less dps oriented builds. Joining all druids in that area in a druid alliance is a great idea though, i wonder if that's hard to implement. It could have downsides like "I'm gonna do some gardening while you guys kill droaches" so the idea probably needs some tweaking (some sort of tagging a mob or being in range at least)


I don't like the guild zerg idea although we are in the same situation. We don't have to have 4x6 people running together, we can do different wings of GK for example or give a headstart to the other groups (a 10 minutes or such in order to get a full respawn). Otherwise it pretty much means one group ends up carrying the rest which gets us back to the zergs the dev tried to remove by implementing these changes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crissa

Just shouting on Global 'Hey, I'd like to fight something in the 40-50 range' gets me nada, and I don't even care where I go other than it's something to do.

---

I wonder if one of the problems is the level range. In my MMO experience, there's usually a big clump of players at max level and a small clump of players in the newbie range, and pretty much nobody in between. So, you not only have to find players willing to group, you have to find players at the right level willing to group. I don't think that's something that's going to be fixed by throwing more population at the server either - after the first couple months of everyone leveling up, you are still going to end up with the same level distribution.

I don't really have any good fixes for the level problem, just some fuzzy idea about voluntary level scaling... It seems a shame that there are all these pretty mid-level zones around that get almost no traffic because most people outlevel them too quickly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tagamogi

It seems a shame that there are all these pretty mid-level zones around that get almost no traffic because most people outlevel them too quickly.

---

That's why i keep babbling about not focusing on combat only and level some crafts in parallel, it's not a race and it's really not important to be 70/70 in only combat skills. Not to say my way is better but tbh when the cap lvl was raised to 70 i leveled leatherworking, endurance and carpentry before i unlocked any combat skills. I crafted gear first then proceeded to level combat to 70. It's much easier to find groups that way when you're not that desperate for gear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tagamogi

So, you not only have to find players willing to group, you have to find players at the right level willing to group.

---

Well, I can hear other players in zone. So the players exist. I was thinking maybe like a /who command that lists groups or makes it easier to group and ungroup in zones or level bands.

I've always been able to find someone farming willing to let me cover their backs. The problem is finding and talking to that player. Maybe one in five that I run into don't want to group - but they're not usually listening to Global and Nearby is super-noisy so unless I'm on screen, they rarely hear me. I know I have the same problem when I've been told someone heard me in the dungeon then tried to find me.

Some sort of level scaling would be pretty awesome, too. It would preserve the challenge of dungeons - but might also make it harder for lopsided groups to form. If you're forced down to a level, then you won't be more efficient in a lower-level dungeon, so you will be even less inclined to be there.

I was thinking maybe a group could be 6*skill levels and then level people down as they're added. So if you grab that slightly under-leveled person in the group, it wouldn't hurt, but someone over-leveled wouldn't help as much. Hmm.