Update Discussion: October 18, 2018

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Originally Posted by ProfessorCat

I think it's an exciting new mechanic that furthers a players options for a custom build.

300 damage is about equal to a level 70 weapon mod (you're in denial If you don't think weapons get the best mods) and in many cases, a WORSE option than what's available. When level 80+ comes out, in fact, this will become obsolete.

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Dangerous enchantments don't have a downside or a trade off with anything because they don't cost enchantment points. You aren't losing a mod slot in order to have dangerous enchantments on them. You can have a max enchanted weapon WITH an additional mod on it with transmutation AND 300 damage from the dangerous enchantment. That's why there's no choice or customization. When level 80 weapons come out, it will be the same deal where there is no reason not to want +300 damage on it aside from not wanting to go through with the frustration involved with gambling.

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Originally Posted by ProfessorCat

This adds a FLAT tree hundy AFTER all of that. In most cases, the 20% base damage mod is better on your heavy hitting attacks, because it compounds with your other attacks.

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This is not true. Simple damage still gets multiplied by a few bonuses. In fact, it gets multiplied by any bonuses that would also multiply base damage bonuses. The only way +300 damage would be worse than 20% base damage is if the base damage of every attack you use is greater than 1500. The highest base damage out of the three current weapons is Decapitate at 761.

pulled directly from the patch notes:

"The three blacksmithing recipes to "dangerously" improve an item have returned. (The "danger" is that the item may shatter and be destroyed.) The chance for the item to be destroyed has increased from 2% to 3%, and the weapon now gains simple damage, not regular damage. Simple damage is not multiplied by any other gear mod benefits, but it is still multiplied by the enemy's vulnerabilities, or lack thereof."

and

"Add +2 Simple Sword Damage to a sword, up to a maximum of +300. The sword must have enchantments of at least level 30. Simple damage is added to the total damage after all other multipliers. This recipe does not use Enhancement Points, but there is a 3% chance the weapon will shatter and be destroyed. (Must be near a forge.)"

This means they programmed a brand new damage mechanic based off of complaints about how it was built before, I can't possibly imagine anyone could ask for a bigger nerf on this mechanic.

Also, for sword and knife, there is no "Max Enchanted" at this time. Only clubs and staffs are crafable, meaning at this time, only hammer will have the benefit of having a "8th" enchantment. I see this as fair, as most all skills have a sort of secondary skill that makes them stronger

Sword - Calligraphy - now dangerous enchantment - no max enchantment
Knife - Nothing before, and was very under powered, now can potentially have 2x dangerous enchantment
Hammer - can Max Enchant, dangerous enchant, buckle artistry (probably the biggest benefit from dangeorus enchantment)
Staff - Hopology, Max enchantment
Fire/Ice - Lore gives elemental bonus
Unarmed - meditation, no max enchanted mainhand
Archery/Ment/Psych - critical hit chance
virtually any other skill can get a Max enchanted mod, as you can use a crafted staff or club for this
I'm probably missing other "boosting"skills.

I see this as a way to balance sword/hammer/knife into the fold, and rather than being a static buff like other skills have, your long earned +300 damage sword knife or hammer will have to be replaced every time a new level set comes out, or you decide you would prefer a different mainhand weapon.

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Originally Posted by ProfessorCat

Simple damage is not multiplied by any other gear mod benefits, but it is still multiplied by the enemy's vulnerabilities, or lack thereof."

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Simple damage is still modified by things such as bonuses to damage types and debuffs on enemies that cause them to take more damage. These are the same bonuses that would scale with % bonuses to base damage. I know you are just reading the patch notes, but you are assuming something that isn't true. If you need a more in depth explanation, I created a thread about the damage formula which has all the information you need to know on how simple damage and base damage works.

https://forum.projectgorgon.com/show...-are-so-Strong
Go to page two for the damage formula as it is now.

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Originally Posted by ProfessorCat

This means they programmed a brand new damage mechanic based off of complaints about how it was built before, I can't possibly imagine anyone could ask for a bigger nerf on this mechanic.

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The original version of dangerous enchantments was really, really broken. Now it is simply "Really good" rather than being outright busted. If you're curious about the math the thread I posted also explains it (Look for the post explaining leaping smash)

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Originally Posted by ProfessorCat

I see this as fair, as most all skills have a sort of secondary skill that makes them stronger

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Not only is +300 or +600 attack way better than the other secondary skill bonuses, but it's way more frustrating than them too which creates an issue. If you were to balance them so they were in line, then you're making knife have to jump through these risky hoops to craft a strong weapon while other skills simply craft a recipe like calligraphy or meditation.

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Originally Posted by ProfessorCat

Also, for sword and knife, there is no "Max Enchanted" at this time. Only clubs and staffs are crafable, meaning at this time, only hammer will have the benefit of having a "8th" enchantment.

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That wasn't my point, I was using it as an example to state how there isn't a downside or something you're giving up for the upgrade. In your posts before you were talking as if you had to sacrifice a mod for +300 damage, for example:

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Originally Posted by ProfessorCat

This adds a FLAT tree hundy AFTER all of that. In most cases, the 20% base damage mod is better on your heavy hitting attacks, because it compounds with your other attacks.

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or

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Originally Posted by ProfessorCat

300 damage is about equal to a level 70 weapon mod (you're in denial If you don't think weapons get the best mods) and in many cases, a WORSE option than what's available. When level 80+ comes out, in fact, this will become obsolete.

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Both of these arguements don't apply when dangerous enchantments can simply be stacked on top of these mods with no issues.

If the damage is being multiplied by other modifiers, report it as a bug. The first two paragraphs I posted were pulled directly from the patch notes, and were from Srand herself, and indicate the damage is no longer multiplied, and was created as simple damage.

Your previous damage calculations are now outdated, and would need to be redone since this recent patch. Furthermore, the addition/multiplication of % boost mods has been re-adjusted, and it is not hitting as hard as it was before, so the numbers should be signifigantly weaker using a +300 damage weapon, compared to your original numbers.

The lack of max enchanted mods is entirely relevant to the addition of dangerous enchantments. Until knife and sword are craftable, they are marginally better off with a +300 dangerous enchantment, than any other skill is with the extra mod. And once again, this is after collecting many many yellow level 70 weapons, all the resources to craft, and not even a gaurentee you'll have anything to show for it. I'm certain this is the intent of the skill itself. Hammer is the only recipe that receives a bigger benefit, but once again, this 300 damage is intended to be added after all other damage is calculated, it does not receive any additional multipliers other than a creatures natural weakness. If it is acting any other way, it needs to be reported as a bug.

EDIT:

I just realized, a crafted hammer (club) will not be able to have dangerous enchantment added. So this means that only metal clubs can potentially have the +300 damage on hammer. So then yes, not a single weapon that can have dangerous enchantment on it can also have 6 mods. So your choice on mainhand builds are:

Sword - 6 mods, dangerous enchantment
Knife - 6 mods, dangerous enchament
Hammer - 6 mods +Dangerous enchantment OR 7 mods
unarmed - gets the shaft with 6 mods on both hands, unless you want to limit to kick, knee kick, headbut, and body slam, in which case you could use a +7 max enchanted mainhand weapon

Virtually every other skill in the game can utilize a 7 mod/max enchanted mainhand.

Is +300 damage better than an additional mod? Most times yes, certainly not all times.

It comes with a MUCH higher price than rolling a mod, pulling it, and applying it.

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Originally Posted by ProfessorCat

Your previous damage calculations are now outdated, and would need to be redone since this recent patch. Furthermore, the addition/multiplication of % boost mods has been re-adjusted, and it is not hitting as hard as it was before, so the numbers should be signifigantly weaker using a +300 damage weapon, compared to your original numbers.

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That's what I did. That's why I said to go to page two on that forum thread.

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Originally Posted by ProfessorCat

I just realized, a crafted hammer (club) will not be able to have dangerous enchantment added. So this means that only metal clubs can potentially have the +300 damage on hammer. So then yes, not a single weapon that can have dangerous enchantment on it can also have 6 mods.

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It does work on clubs. The recipe name says hammer but it also applies to clubs. I have a +300 damage club right now that I have shown in multiple screenshots. If you have the recipe yourself it even states it works on clubs in the description.

https://i.imgur.com/Utf8UMx.png

I'm sorry ProfessorCat, I know you want to share your own opinion, but you should study how the dangerous enchantment works first and try it out yourself. I'm not just getting mad for no reason, I've studied how this works and tried both varients of the enchantment first hand which is why I'm complaining about it. Your opinions are valid but you keep stating a lot of things which are factually untrue, both about how the mods work and the math behind it.

You're right, I did not check in game, and assumed you couldn't black smith a wooden club. My guess is that's also not intentional. I was wrong to assume that before checking.

Can we share this humble pie? You keep saying "that's not how the enchantment works". read Srand's update about the simple damage. It states twice in the patch notes that the simple damage does not receive a boost from other mods/multipliers.

Based off of this fact alone, all your numbers and math, which were correct at the time of posting, need to be re-evaluated to see if, in fact, they are still working incorrectly based off of this most recent update.

In ADDITION to the simple damage change to dangerous enchantment, virtually all skills got a nerf with damage calculations. Before a % boost to damage, was multiplied to the previous total. Now that number is ADDED to the total % boost of all skills, potions, buffs, etc.

I did not have any math on dangerous enchantment before. But I absolutely see a difference in my current builds since this latest patch. My attacks are mostly all weaker, as the new % calculation is indeed performing as advertised in this latest patch notes.

You are holding onto frustrations of the original broken mechanic for dangerous enchanting. The patch notes are telling you it was reduced to be only addition. I am saying the same thing, and you're either not wanting to hear it from me, or not believing it from the patch notes.

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Originally Posted by ProfessorCat

Can we share this humble pie? You keep saying "that's not how the enchantment works". read Srand's update about the simple damage. It states twice in the patch notes that the simple damage does not receive a boost from other mods/multipliers.

Based off of this fact alone, all your numbers and math, which were correct at the time of posting, need to be re-evaluated to see if, in fact, they are still working incorrectly based off of this most recent update.

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But I did do the correct math, once again on page two. Srand states it doesn't get multiplied, but it does. My math is not based off of guessing, it is based off of testing. It is understandable that it works the way it does as well, because two of the things that multiply the damage are debuffs on the enemy in which case they are external to your character, and one of them is based on damage type which makes sense considering how the simple damage enchantment should stack versus enemy resistances, although I could see logic as to why it might not be expected.

Another way of seeing it is that Srand says it doesn't multiply from MODS, which is true, but damage type modifiers and debuffs are not necessarily from mods, even though they can be created from them. This is most likely what was intended when they made that statement.

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Originally Posted by ProfessorCat

You are holding onto frustrations of the original broken mechanic for dangerous enchanting. The patch notes are telling you it was reduced to be only addition. I am saying the same thing, and you're either not wanting to hear it from me, or not believing it from the patch notes.

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You are speaking for me in a way that is not only untrue, but completely misses my point on why I did not like the mechanic. I have made threads on why I wouldn't like the mechanic, even if it was nerfed to absurd degrees even before it was actually nerfed. Not only that, but as someone who plays hammer and benefited greatly from the originally overpowered mechanic, why would I be frustrated over it being overpowered? It was kinda fun for all of my attacks to become nukes. I am upset because I believe the design is harmful to the game as a whole.

Yes the patch notes are saying the enchantment is weakened, but not only is it still good, but the design behind the enchantment is what I'm really upset about. Is it weaker? Yes. The devs have made it very clear that they have weakened it and I have even done the math to show how the damage on hammer from the enchantment has been reduced from several thousand to a few hundred. I don't know why you think I would be in denial when I have clearly stated the numbers behind it and I certainly don't appreciate you trying to delegitimize my arguments by trying to sum it up as denial.

Back to the topic of this post.


I just completed all Halloween quests, and I think the new quests are fun. As well as the party room in the Casino. All very well done.


I didn't notice much improvement in my AH pet DPS, but it's hard to tell without measuring precisely, and I don't have a reference to compare to anymore. The whole dangerous weapon drama will probably fade away when people realize they keep breaking their weapon or have to stick to low-damage ones.

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Originally Posted by Niph

The whole dangerous weapon drama will probably fade away when people realize they keep breaking their weapon or have to stick to low-damage ones.

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That's where the frustration will only increase, not decrease. I already have a +300 damage weapon and so do a few other players, which improves my Damage/DPS greatly over everyone else. If you want to match up, you'll need to go through the RNG roulette until you get that +300 damage weapon, assuming your class even has one. +300 damage on a weapon is a 230 DPS increase assuming you only use attacks from that skill, while most builds have sustained DPS around 1-1.5k. Knife can even have +600 damage due to dual wielding dangerous weapons.

You could just say "Well the game is PvE, it's not a competition", but it's the same logic with other classes being overpowered. If Bard was overpowered and needed a nerf in order to get in line with other classes, then dangerous weapons are essentially the same thing, except you need to go through the RNG gate first. In this case even if the upgrade was available to all classes, then you would be barred from making a "Good" DPS build until you got lucky.

Keep in mind that the devs have stated a few months ago that they wanted to nerf damage across the board, and that it still hasn't happened yet. If they reduce damage multipliers on skills (Which they have stated seems to be their main target) then +300 simple damage is going to make an even larger impact.

Finished the halloween quests yesterday and I have to say I'm very impressed.
Loved finding anhinda's secret room in gk and there was a lot of great new recipes to collect as well.

Keep up the good work!