Welcome to Project: Gorgon!


Project: Gorgon is a 3D fantasy MMORPG (massively-multiplayer online role-playing game) that features an immersive experience that allows the player to forge their own path through exploration and discovery. We won't be guiding you through a world on rails, and as a result there are many hidden secrets awaiting discovery. Project: Gorgon also features an ambitious skill based leveling system that bucks the current trend of pre-determined classes, thus allowing the player to combine skills in order to create a truly unique playing experience.

The Project: Gorgon development team is led by industry veteran Eric Heimburg. Eric has over a decade of experience working as a Senior and Lead Engineer, Developer, Designer and Producer on successful games such as Asheron’s Call 1 and 2, Star Trek Online and other successful Massively Multiplayer Online Games.



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  1. #51
    Senior Member Eachna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tagamogi View Post
    Yeah, pretty much all of the game mechanics reward players that are able to hoard, which is unfortunate.
    Unfortunate, or planned given they're selling storage for real money once B2P starts up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tagamogi View Post
    If everyone can easily sell to other players for more than vendor price than nobody is actually going to sell to the vendors. Taking money out of the economy is actually a good thing since it slows down inflation, so if a player sells an item to a vendor for price x, and a second player buys it for twice x, that's x money removed from the inflation pool...
    Selling to vendors injects new money into the economy.

    Selling to players removes money from the economy (through taxes, listing fees, etc.)

    Selling to vendors removes items from the economy immediately.

    Selling to players keeps items in the economy for the short term but most will eventually consumed.

    It's better for the overall economy to sell to other players than vendors. It removes some of the money that the vendors inject into the economy or at least prevents the injection of "new" money, and it still results in the consumption of items.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tagamogi View Post
    I wonder if it would be possible to modify the player work order system to allow partial completion of a work order. For example, I think it would be nice if someone could put out a work order that says "I want up to 1000 pieces of maple wood and will pay 50 councils for each piece" and different people could then turn in smaller amounts of wood, 3 or 10 or 50 or 89 at a time, until the total 1000 pieces have been collected. I think that could help a lot with common consumables like wood and hides.
    Well, with the caveat of not knowing how hard it would be to rewrite the code, I think partially filling work orders is a very good short term solution.

    Combine that with a new skill (or expanding existing skills) to give more work order slots and we could eventually have Traders.

    There are going to be people who want to do this (buy low, sell high, wheel and deal). All that needs to be done is to give them the tools to do it.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Tagamogi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eachna View Post
    Unfortunate, or planned given they're selling storage for real money once B2P starts up?
    I'm going to go with "unfortunate" here. I spent nearly a year seeing assorted forum posts by newcomers to the game begging for some way to throw money at development before the latest Indiegogo project and the current donation system were finally implemented. It could of course have been a nefarious plot to trick us all into doing extra bug reporting since we were feeling guilty for not being able to pay for the game (thank you, it worked), but generally I don't think making the most money off the game has been a developmental priority.

    I think the promised extra VIP storage is intended as a pleasant convenience, not a necessity. I don't think the way storage is currently working really supports that intention, but well, that's another discussion.

    Selling to vendors injects new money into the economy.

    Selling to players removes money from the economy (through taxes, listing fees, etc.)

    Selling to vendors removes items from the economy immediately.

    Selling to players keeps items in the economy for the short term but most will eventually consumed.

    It's better for the overall economy to sell to other players than vendors. It removes some of the money that the vendors inject into the economy or at least prevents the injection of "new" money, and it still results in the consumption of items.
    Oh, hm. Interesting point. I was thinking of dropped loot as injecting money into the economy, not NPC vendors when they actually buy that loot. I think it depends on whether that loot is something that other players want or not.

    The scenario I'm thinking of is something like this:

    We have player A and player B, both with 100 gold. Total economy cash: 200 gold.

    Player A loots an item that player B wants. He sells it to player B for 40 gold. Now player A has 140 gold, and player B has 60 gold. Total economy cash is still 200 gold.

    Alternatively, player A sells the item to an NPC for 20 gold. Player B sees it, and buys it for 40 gold. Player B still has just 60 gold, but player A only has 120 gold now, and the total economy cash has been reduced to 180.

    Fees and taxes may reduce player-to-player profit, but the reason players engage in it is that they are going to do better than just selling it to an NPC.

    I do think player to player trade is a good and fun thing to have. I like it. What I was trying to get at is the possibly nitpicky point that a healthy economy isn't necessarily just about letting players make the most amount of money - there also needs to be some way to reasonably take money out again since everytime someone kills a mob, there's fresh loot and cash coming in that just didn't exist before. There are lots of of ways to take money out of the economy though, so I don't know if penalizing player trade is really an optimal thing to do. Trying to think of the big picture here mostly makes my head hurt.

    Combine that with a new skill (or expanding existing skills) to give more work order slots and we could eventually have Traders.

    There are going to be people who want to do this (buy low, sell high, wheel and deal). All that needs to be done is to give them the tools to do it.
    I'd be careful to distinguish between traders and resellers. Traders add something beneficial for their customers - maybe they buy up cooking ingredients and sell meals, or they buy things from an NPC in an inconvenient location and sell them at at higher price in a more accessible spot. Resellers just snap up items and resell them for a higher price, without adding anything but the increased price tag. If a game makes it too easy for resellers to do this and dominate whole markets, they suck a lot of fun out of the game for everyone else since both people that buy from them and people that sell to them are going to end up feeling vaguely cheated.

    I like the idea of being able to set up a fur trading post or something like that, I'm just not sure if this can be implemented in a game without slipping into reseller territory.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Khaylara's Avatar
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    "I'd be careful to distinguish between traders and resellers. Traders add something beneficial for their customers - maybe they buy up cooking ingredients and sell meals, or they buy things from an NPC in an inconvenient location and sell them at at higher price in a more accessible spot. Resellers just snap up items and resell them for a higher price, without adding anything but the increased price tag. If a game makes it too easy for resellers to do this and dominate whole markets, they suck a lot of fun out of the game for everyone else since both people that buy from them and people that sell to them are going to end up feeling vaguely cheated. "

    Resellers are usually attached to auction houses. Players do that now too but they are lacking the tool that would make it easy (auction house). Afaik Citan doesn't intend to ever implement one of those and any mechanic too similar to an AH would probably not be considered. That's the reason I tried to stay away from any "central market" suggestion tbh, I kinda agree that such a thing would be detrimental to this particular game community.
    I would be happy with a centralized (not central) market.Imo between chaotic player stalls, rafflers, player WOs, consignments and Trade chat, all applied to a very small community there's no actual market, trades are simply too...scattered to form a cohesive market.
    I'd go with organizing the player stalls, polishing the WO board (as it was mentioned partial filling would be nice to have) and providing some sort of search function.
    Speaking of rafflers, dispensers etc there is a massive problem with those-when they get deployed in crowded areas (and logic says that's where they should be deployed in order to be used) they get wiped with whatever junk is on the ground. It's really not worth using them atm as vending tools. Maybe one of the overflow rooms in the citadel could become a gambling room (for rafflers and such) and they could receive a different code to distinguish them from dropped rubbish.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Crissa's Avatar
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    Resellers also provide liquidity to the market. Right now, there's a hard ceiling on what they can extract and a hard floor on what they can pay - becaue vendors buy and sell items as well.

  5. #55
    Senior Member ShieldBreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khaylara View Post
    "...
    Speaking of rafflers, dispensers etc there is a massive problem with those-when they get deployed in crowded areas (and logic says that's where they should be deployed in order to be used) they get wiped with whatever junk is on the ground. It's really not worth using them atm as vending tools. Maybe one of the overflow rooms in the citadel could become a gambling room (for rafflers and such) and they could receive a different code to distinguish them from dropped rubbish.
    I was thinking something along the same lines. What I was thinking, was rafflers setup within the radius of your market stall would get different handling. After reading your post I thought maybe if there was a room in the same area for rafflers people with stalls would get the ability to put down extra rafflers in the raffler room. But maybe the clean up of zones, is optimized as best as can be, and drawing off extra spaces from the top for gadget boxes would exaggerate existing problems with clean-up.

    Other ideas: Player Shopkeeper maybe give out or sell raffle tickets for any gadgets by the player in the world. Maybe have options for tickets for raffles with purchases of so much. Basically Shopkeeper become a centralized hub for all raffles of the player and maybe all vendor gadgets of the player.

    These ideas might also have interesting tie-ins with Player Housing as well.

  6. #56
    Senior Member cratoh's Avatar
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    Resellers don't hurt economies where reources are unlimited. That's all just in your heads. If one guy decides to buy all 'uber hat of dragonslaying' and then list them all for 1000 plat, the next guy just goes out, kill the mob that drops 'uber hat of dragonslaying' and lists it either at 700 plat, or whatever he feels he wants for it.

    This idea that suddenly having easy trade fucks up the entire world, and floods the market, and does all this terrible stuff is really just such bull. It just makes trade easier.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Khaylara's Avatar
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    I don't get how/why resellers are good, even for a real economy. They are the middleman that makes everything more expensive that's all.

    My suggestion would be to focus on giving suggestions on how to improve the current situation instead of asking for an auction house since Citan said repeatedly he won't implement that. Someone suggested houses could be used as a trading post, it sounds like a good idea in my opinion but it might be impossible. From what I remember they said about housing that houses will initially be instanced flats which won't be able to host a crowd of people (Unity limitation). It would be great if it was possible, we'd be able to put a sign on the door like "I'm selling gems, stop by". Maybe that will happen in later stages of the development?

  8. #58
    Senior Member Tagamogi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khaylara View Post
    I don't get how/why resellers are good, even for a real economy. They are the middleman that makes everything more expensive that's all.
    In real life, I think they add a lot of convenience. We may not be thinking of the same things here, though. I'd consider pretty much any store I shop at to be a reseller. For example, I could probably drive around and find a farmer to sell me some eggs, drive around some more and find another farmer to sell me broccoli, get on the phone and see if I can get someone to ship me bananas... Or, I can go to the grocery store and find everything I want in one place.

    In a game, this mostly doesn't apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by cratoh View Post
    Resellers don't hurt economies where reources are unlimited.
    Resources aren't unlimited, though. I get your point that pixel loot is theoretically unlimited, but the players' time and effort to get that loot is not. Resellers for common drops like femurs are not going to have much luck in achieving market dominance, but if somebody with a lot of free time decides they want to buy up all available poetry books and resell them, they could probably get very close to a monopoly on them in an auction house style system. (Also under Gorgon's system but it would take a lot more effort on their part.) Stuff like that may not kill an economy, but it does tend to make other players noticing it pretty unhappy.

    Quote Originally Posted by cratoh View Post
    This idea that suddenly having easy trade fucks up the entire world, and floods the market, and does all this terrible stuff is really just such bull. It just makes trade easier.
    I'm not quite convinced... Where I'm going from: I played WoW for a number of years, and the auction house there was a frequent source of complaints in my guild. People perceived it as vastly overpriced and would go out of their way to avoid it, farming materials themselves or trying to set up trades on their own with other players they trusted not to overcharge them.

    Players still used the auction house, so arguably it was successful. Just nobody seemed to like it much. I was one of the few players I knew who traded regularly on the ah. I did quite well with it and had fun initially, but towards the end, it just wasn't worth the effort anymore because I couldn't compete effectively with the people who had more time and patience than I to post and re-post auctions. I quit WoW a long time ago, so it's likely they made improvements to the ah since then, but the ah mechanism has rather stuck in my head as not being particularly fun.

    Finally going back to Gorgon, I find the idea of intentionally not implementing an auction house pretty intriguing. PG does many things differently from other MMOs and does them successfully, so why not this too?

  9. #59
    Senior Member Khaylara's Avatar
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    From what I remember from Citan's older posts on this topic I think he doesn't want resellers and he doesn't want to completely eliminate NPCs from the economy.

    What I understand by resellers and why I think that is bad (and how an AH would encourage reselling).

    Let's say player F who has cash already has a large amount of fire dust and he constantly farms that. Players A B C also have fire dust but they are newbies and got their fire dust while leveling. They want to sell fast so they put it in AH with 125-130 a piece. Player F who wants to make more profit simply camps the auctioneer buys every last fire dust he finds with 125 each and puts it for sale at 170 each. Players who need it have no other option than to pay the price player F asks because it's still cheaper than NPC used tab price. So player F ends up controlling the fire dust market.
    At the moment it's hard for 1 person to get monopol because he would have to camp numerous NPCs consignments, go check all the player stalls etc to be able to get all the fire dust off the market. With an auction house all that he would have to do is perma camp the auctioneer and keep buying every new small stack of fire dust other people put for trade.
    In general terms you can have a handful of people controlling the entire game market and I believe this is what Citan wants to avoid. In a game that has a player base of 7 k it can be partially successful to have an AH because physically 3 people won't be able to control so many items that are traded daily but PG with a couple of hundred can be easily controlled by a couple of older players.
    I was okay with AH in a game like Aion where a server population of 3 k was considered an all time low but here I don't think it would be beneficial. We'd have people who just started that couldn't afford the monopolized items if a stack of dust would cost 9 k and gems 400 each and that would be the only option.

  10. #60
    Member ANT3RA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khaylara View Post
    From what I remember from Citan's older posts on this topic I think he doesn't want resellers and he doesn't want to completely eliminate NPCs from the economy.

    What I understand by resellers and why I think that is bad (and how an AH would encourage reselling).

    Let's say player F who has cash already has a large amount of fire dust and he constantly farms that. Players A B C also have fire dust but they are newbies and got their fire dust while leveling. They want to sell fast so they put it in AH with 125-130 a piece. Player F who wants to make more profit simply camps the auctioneer buys every last fire dust he finds with 125 each and puts it for sale at 170 each. Players who need it have no other option than to pay the price player F asks because it's still cheaper than NPC used tab price. So player F ends up controlling the fire dust market.
    At the moment it's hard for 1 person to get monopol because he would have to camp numerous NPCs consignments, go check all the player stalls etc to be able to get all the fire dust off the market. With an auction house all that he would have to do is perma camp the auctioneer and keep buying every new small stack of fire dust other people put for trade.
    In general terms you can have a handful of people controlling the entire game market and I believe this is what Citan wants to avoid. In a game that has a player base of 7 k it can be partially successful to have an AH because physically 3 people won't be able to control so many items that are traded daily but PG with a couple of hundred can be easily controlled by a couple of older players.
    I was okay with AH in a game like Aion where a server population of 3 k was considered an all time low but here I don't think it would be beneficial. We'd have people who just started that couldn't afford the monopolized items if a stack of dust would cost 9 k and gems 400 each and that would be the only option.
    You make a very excellent point Khaylara....Ooooh I still need more fire dust

    I am one (read: used to be in my gaming prime O.o) of those "resellers" that have been mentioned. Not in PG though as I do not see a need for it nor do I have the time and dedication to that cause as I did several years ago. I find PG to be a community driven environment, whether that be player to player interaction or the sense of community as a whole. We all help each other out as needed etc. Reselling for profit as a "thing" can have dire consequences in my experience.

    I was very good at making profit, skimming the fat off profit margins, and generally being "That Guy" that always had good stuff to sell, or vast quantities of "that thing".

    I didn't farm much, I just played the market very well. All thanks to the auction house (or whatever flavor it came in) and some handy add on's and online databases where i could keep track of supply, demand, and opportunities for profit. I actually made less money farming and selling at 100% profit, then playing the market and making very small profit on large quantities of items, in less than the time it took me to farm etc.

    Searching, buying, unstacking, stacking, reselling is much quicker than farming/selling if you know how in game AH mechanics work and know how to manipulate player's emotional attachments to certain needed items in games. I played the AH for profit more then i played the core game.

    I ran several accounts and could create a false sense of competition between my own characters and this would make a buyer feel at ease, knowing that there are "some" "not so expensive" stacks/items, but would ultimately have to buy an expensive stack of far too many items because they needed two more of that item. I was so nasty...I know. They would then take that expensive stack, take the two items they needed, put the rest of the stack on the AH at a much lower price (usually the original "normal" price) to sell quickly and to try and undercut me to make that sale, at which point I would buy my own items back, make profit, smoke a fat one, easy money. Buyer is happy as they have the items they need, they sold the rest of the stack they didn't want, and I was happy cause it was all part of my plan.

    I believe I did hold the monopoly on some things in WoW at one point. It was short lived though as many people did exactly the same thing I did, so dominance skipped from player to player etc. The outcome of that monopoly is that I (and my competitors) to a large extent regulated the price of said items. It was incremental, lets say over a two week period, but eventually items were 50% dearer then two weeks prior, and it remained there until that item tanked and the bubble burst. People realised it was easier to not use the AH, farm it themselves or spam trade channel to buy it direct from other players. The economy was very much affected by what players like myself did through playing the AH for profit.

    Rinse, repeat, I moved onto the next item/s of the day, until that tanked, and the vicious circle repeats.

    Player to player trading, and trading with a player by proxy using a player vendor, slows and has a leveling effect on in game economies by allowing people to find something they need with a bit of know how and leg work, rather then having 200 stacks of it hit them in the face on the AH. Someone will always end up doing what I did with an AH. A large portion of those 200 stacks would belong to one player.

    Not having an AH allows someone to have 10 stacks of stomachs, selling them for 1850 a piece, making one or two sales a day, but still being beaten by the guy that has 3 stacks and selling them for 1250, selling everything, and being happy to do so all day every day, cause he knows people will come back to him for stomachs. The AH would allow 10 stacks to buy 3 stacks and then sell 13 stacks for 1850 forcing a price onto players, as the AH is the only quick and easy source of buy/sell.

    There is no win win there for the player economy, only a win for one guy....the seller, Mr Entrepreneur. Being forced to use an AH would suit 10 stack man perfectly. As his profits rise, so does his hold on the economy as he has more buying power. Supply is very high, Demand is high but cautious or rising prices, Price is unstable, player economy fluctuates as price is too high and weakens in the long run. Players look for other sources, such as farming, or 3 stack man.

    However, this could still occur with player vendors, the difference is that 3 stack man will always have stock and doesn't care who buys it as long as people come to him first or only him and then 10 stack man will eventually realise that 3 stack man is onto something as he cant seem to make more then 2 sales a day. He is losing a lot of profit not selling what he has. 10 stack is then forced to not sell said stomachs or reduce his price to suit and take a loss. Either way someone holds "the market" for stomachs, but not in the sense that profit margins dictate price. What dictates price, is what people are willing to spend without needing to go and farm it themselves. Supply is high or constant, Demand is high, Price is stable, the player economy wins. Price is then determined by the drop rate of stomachs for instance, which is an unchangeable natural occurrence in the game.

    I hope that last section makes...
    Last edited by ANT3RA; 05-09-2017 at 09:47 PM.



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