Welcome to Project: Gorgon!


Project: Gorgon is a 3D fantasy MMORPG (massively-multiplayer online role-playing game) that features an immersive experience that allows the player to forge their own path through exploration and discovery. We won't be guiding you through a world on rails, and as a result there are many hidden secrets awaiting discovery. Project: Gorgon also features an ambitious skill based leveling system that bucks the current trend of pre-determined classes, thus allowing the player to combine skills in order to create a truly unique playing experience.

The Project: Gorgon development team is led by industry veteran Eric Heimburg. Eric has over a decade of experience working as a Senior and Lead Engineer, Developer, Designer and Producer on successful games such as Asheron’s Call 1 and 2, Star Trek Online and other successful Massively Multiplayer Online Games.



User Tag List

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 45
  1. #31
    Senior Member Celerity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    102
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Roekai View Post
    Under the system of evasion as I imagine it, only damage would be evaded, not spell effects. So, CC and debuffing would not be devalued, rather quite the opposite.
    Would this also include tank rage? If it did include it then it may alleviate some of Yaffy's concerns with tanking. Also what about combat refreshes from basic attacks and combo stuff like +x damage to core attacks?

    I was talking based off how evasion currently works in game. If a basilisk, for example, evades my electrify it both doesn't take damage and doesn't get stunned.

    If the mob still took the cc effect then it would be better yes, I still wouldn't like it for being rng and would actually just rather see a straight nerf to the damage of epic attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roekai View Post
    Power becoming more important would just mean more of a reliance on low cost, lower power skills, rather than a complete dependence on cloth. I can tell you right now that I have absolutely no problem managing my power using heavy armor, because I largely use skills that have excellent damage to power cost ratios, and further improve those with cost effective modifications. Parry, Riposte, Punch, Jab, Infuriating Blow, Finishing Blow, they all have extremely low power costs and I basically can sustain myself in combat with decent food indefinitely. So I reject the everyone wearing cloth argument.
    That may be true for your specific build, but for me using hammer/ment even if I don't use my nukes and I'm using best food in the game + flower + max power mods I still have to use dig deep and my basic attacks during some group combat just for power regen. Even mentalism has some pretty high power cost abilities. I'm not complaining btw, I just think this means the power situation is already in the correct spot for my specific build. If I started missing my attacks then I could see myself getting serious power issues just from using small attacks alone and I think it would force me into cloth armour which would be a serious blow to my survivalability with how much I rely on the leather combat refresh heal.

    The moment I use pound to slag it takes ~160 power which is about 1/3 of my total power. You're right that if that misses then I may be screwed in a fight so your aim of nerfing burst damage would be achieved, but again I would much rather just see a straight nerf to the damage rather than an rng fix. In all honesty I would probably just keep using the exact same build but just get frustrated if my attack misses, that's what I already do in dc minus the frustration since I'm far above the mobs level anyway so it doesn't really matter if my attacks miss. And in fact I don't see it ever mattering as long as you have an augmented and transmuted build, since the mobs should always be weaker than you, meaning you can accomodate the rng more. This could change in the future if content specifically designed for full max-enchanted builds comes out, but at the moment I just see it as another punish for less well geared players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roekai View Post
    Why do you think evasion would make kiting easier for ranged players? As far as I can tell, it would more negatively affect ranged players than melee players for 2 reasons.

    One: Non-kiting players would also gain the benefit evasion; someone kiting a mob is not being hit by the mob, so they would only suffer misses on their opponent, their opponent would not suffer misses on them.
    I meant comparatively. As I see it there's basically 4 main ways to play:

    1. Build mitigation and face tank such as unarmed, shield, staff, cow, bc with extra skin etc.

    2. Use crowd control to avoid damage such as roots, stuns, fears etc.

    3. Kite with ranged attacks, easier when using movement speed buffs or slows on enemies

    4. Just build damage and hope to kill the mob before it kills you

    Now obviously people use a combination of these, but my idea was with how evasion currently works, and that would make all of them harder because you would have damage decreased in all cases, but then additionally 2 would be affected more if cc had a chance to miss, and 4 becomes less likely to work the longer combat goes on. Therefore, I meant that 1 and 3 would become better methods by comparison. Just as a sidenote, I believe ranged to be superior simply because they have the option of 3 at all, which they can use in conjuction with the others and don't seem to have any other downside really.

    Also maybe I missed something but I don't think you ever said that the evasion would apply to players too?

    In the case of evasion applying to both mobs and players, even with cc effects not being evaded, cc would still be devalued (assuming the evasion is unmitigatable from stuns) just from elongating fights because of the diminishing returns on cc; a 3 second stun is much more impactful in a 10 second fight than a 3 second stun and a 1 second stun is in a 20 second fight. Take the fight even longer and it gets even worse, as after that the stun does nothing until 60 seconds have passed. Kiting may cause a power concern in a long fight, but this is incredibly build specific I think, and in the case of mitigation, I see only benefit from making fights longer, unless you have a very front-loaded mitigation ability on a long cooldown. As far as I'm aware nothing like that exists, blocking stance, deflective spin and elemental ward are probably the closest to this but they actually have fairly short cooldowns and I see them used more than once in some group combat pulls already.

    The above is exaggerated, since a 10% evasion rate would only cause a 10 second fight previously to last 11 seconds on average now, so the impact would actually be quite minimal, but I think it's interesting to think about regardless. In fact, it makes me wonder if this change would actually significantly affect anything at all.

    My final thoughts are that I actually don't mind it too much, still not the solution I want to see just because of rng and I'm not convinced it will stop players from using nukes and stacking damage mods since if the relative balance of power is maintained, i.e. same evasion rate on both players and mobs, then the exact same strategy should still work on average, and with a bit of rng allowance from top tier gear I imagine it would be the same situation as now, whereas lesser geared players will simply suffer from rng as well as people in general would be annoyed by it. We could then talk about having a higher rate of evasion on the mob than on the player but to be perfectly honest I think mob damage is already too high and that would be a bad idea.

  2. #32
    Junior Member Cleo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    11
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Roekai View Post
    There would be no stun flat foot debuff.

    "And as I have already stated, I would not want there to be mitigation of evasion with accuracy in any way
    This sounds absolutely horrible. Having a bunch of my attacks miss on a regular basis would not be fun. Half this game is about crafting armor to make different cool builds. If you make all the builds the same by making nothing hit with consistency, then that eliminates the motivation to make that armor or those builds. Everything is gonna miss all the time so everything is basically the same. Combos become pointless. Synergies become pointless. Half the combat system becomes pointless.

    Also, I just don't like it. If the skill says it is supposed to do something, I want it to do it when I press the button. I don't want it to maybe happen when I press the button. You might as well just label all the skills "sometimes does some damage." Blech.

    This sounds infuriating, not fun.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Mikhaila's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    367
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm curious to see how Citan likes the results of the HP increase to mobs. It was immediately noticable on some mobs because the strategy that use to kill them still has them swinging at you with hps left. Fights are just a bit longer, take a bit more power. Multiple mobs are just that much harder.

  4. #34
    Member Roekai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    93
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleo View Post
    This sounds absolutely horrible. Having a bunch of my attacks miss on a regular basis would not be fun. Half this game is about crafting armor to make different cool builds. If you make all the builds the same by making nothing hit with consistency, then that eliminates the motivation to make that armor or those builds. Everything is gonna miss all the time so everything is basically the same. Combos become pointless. Synergies become pointless. Half the combat system becomes pointless.
    Point 1: 10% Evasion is having one of your attacks miss once in a while, not "a bunch of your attacks missing on a regular basis." If you missed 5 (2 is a pair, 3-4 is a few, so I guess 5+ is a bunch) or more attacks in a row, on a regular basis, you would be a statistical anomaly.

    Point 2: We already established within this thread, pretty much unanimously, that there is ALREADY a meta (burst dps) that "eliminates the motivation to make other armor or builds." That is the whole point of this thread. You are missing the entire point of this thread.

    Point 3: I already addressed the fact that combos chains would still work, and all synergies would remain exactly as they are.

    Point 4: I would LOVE to hear the explanation behind the statement missing one in ten attacks (and only the damage, not the effects) would render "half the combat system pointless."

    You should honestly have some type of evidence or thought behind an argument when you present it.

    Edit: One of the people who doesn't even agree with me ideologically admits "The above is exaggerated, since a 10% evasion rate would only cause a 10 second fight previously to last 11 seconds on average now, so the impact would actually be quite minimal, but I think it's interesting to think about regardless. In fact, it makes me wonder if this change would actually significantly affect anything at all."

    TLDR: You are wrong.

    and to Celerity:

    The reason I advocated for evasion over a flat damage nerf to DPS is that burst damage would still be possible. With a flat nerf to DPS then burst damage would be eliminated, rather than nerfed. But I could be wrong here. Increasing hit points, lowering damage, increasing the mitigation factor/regeneration rate of armor, could all be considered, I suppose. I still have yet to hear a really convincing argument against evasion. But then again, I am a dense asshole, so it could be that too.
    Last edited by Roekai; 06-11-2020 at 04:25 PM.

  5. #35
    Junior Member Cleo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    11
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Roekai View Post
    Point 1: 10% Evasion is having one of your attacks miss once in a while, not "a bunch of your attacks missing on a regular basis." If you missed 5 (2 is a pair, 3-4 is a few, so I guess 5+ is a bunch) or more attacks in a row, on a regular basis, you would be a statistical anomaly.
    A 1 in 10 chance is not the same thing as 1 in 10 attacks. Every attack has a 10% chance of failing regardless of the ones before or after it failing or missing. The probability of an individual attack failing never changes.

    Adding probabilities together is not that simple. If I have a combo that takes 2 attacks to complete, it is not a 10% chance the combo will fail. It is a 19% chance it will fail. If it requires 3 attacks to complete, it is 27.1% chance it will fail. P(A or B) = P(A) + P(B) - P(A and B)

    If it is a synergy that takes one attack to make 2 or three others do an effect or increase the damage, and that is the attack that fails, it has not messed up one attack, it has messed up all the attacks.

    You are oversimplifying your statistics.

    Also, I don't care about the statistics. I don't play games to do math. I play them to have fun.

    I care about whether the buttons I press do what they say they will do. When they do not do what they say they will do, many people find that annoying.

    I am one of them. I'm not going to use anything that combos or has a synergy because the odds of my combo or synergy getting messed up are pretty good, so they are pointless. Might as well not be in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roekai View Post
    Point 2: We already established within this thread, pretty much unanimously, that there is ALREADY a meta (burst dps) that "eliminates the motivation to make other armor or builds." That is the whole point of this thread. You are missing the entire point of this thread.
    I'm not missing the point of the thread. I read the thread. I read your posts. I read everyone else's posts. You have an outcome you wish to achieve, and have already decided that

    A) Everyone should have to play the way you want them to because you say so

    and

    B) Your solution is the only way that the outcome you want to achieve can be achieved.

    I find that arrogant, condescending, patronizing and narcissistic.

    Every MMO ever made has a META. Of all the games I have played, this one has the least adherence to META. People play all kinds of builds. They might be using builds that are bursty, but there are a bunch of those, and there are a bunch of variants to those. Burst with tankiness. Burst with healing. Burst with utility. Also, not everyone is using burst. I don't. I don't like the long cooldowns on the epics. I see plenty of people using other types of build besides burst. The people who do use burst, don't always use burst everywhere. They use it to fight late game stuff. Elites. Bosses. You want to attach an evasion % to everything, everywhere, with no mitigation possibilities because you don't want people to use burst on elites and bosses?

    Why do you care what other people are doing? How is it affecting you? And why do want to introduce a change that affects EVERYONE because people are doing stuff that you have decided is "not the right way to play". Making burst not META won't stop there from being a META. You just want a different META.

    A global game change will lead to a global meta change. Diverse changes will lead to diverse meta changes. People have told you that several times already and you have ignored them.

    Also, I don't care what "everyone in the thread" agrees. That is like 5 people. Also, not all of them agreed. I didn't. The fact that I disagree with you doesn't make my opinion less valid than yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roekai View Post
    Point 3: I already addressed the fact that combos chains would still work, and all synergies would remain exactly as they are.
    Where? Maybe I missed it in your walls of text, but all I see you saying is that CC and debuffs could work regardless of evasion. That isn't how they work now, if the attack is evaded, the cc is evaded. So you want the whole combat system rewritten to conform to your master plan? Of adding evasion to everything. Which many people have already told you they don't like and don't want.

    Changing them would not make them stay the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roekai View Post
    Point 4: I would LOVE to hear the explanation behind the statement missing one in ten attacks would render "half the combat system pointless."
    Your evasion makes all the combos and synergies unreliable. Making things unreliable makes people stop using them. Which makes them pointless. Maybe you would dump a bunch of time and effort into making maxed out armor for a combo that isn't going to work a bunch of the time, but a lot of people won't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Roekai View Post
    You should honestly have some type of evidence or thought behind an argument when you present it.
    What evidence do you have that your mass evasion changes will do what you want? Your only thought is you want what you want, and don't give a flip what anyone else wants.

    TLDR: Your a troll.

  6. #36
    Member Roekai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    93
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    No, do not want "the whole combat system rewritten to conform to my master plan?"

    edit: my "master plan" is simply caring about the game @ an autistic level. https://forum.projectgorgon.com/show...hlight=evasion

    I merely want the mechanic that Citan installed to fix a problem that Citan identified, back. These are not original ideas or opinions. I want a move back to the past, when there was evasion.

    You keep complaining about evasion of damage ruining combos and synergy, when I have stated that nothing but damage would be affected under the version of evasion I am advocating for (which is a relatively minor tweak from the original version of evasion).


    REPEAT: COMBOS, SNYERGIES, TAUNTS, ROOTS, CCs: WOULD NOT BE EFFECTED. ONLY DAMAGE.


    edit: Originally I was not clearly advocating for only damage, but over the course of the discussion objections were raised, so I pivoted to allowing combos, synergies, taunts, roots, and CCs, once valid objections were made. This may have been more clear in my mind than in my posts, lol.
    Last edited by Roekai; 06-11-2020 at 06:49 PM.

  7. #37
    Member Roekai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    93
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    To CLEO:

    A 6% evasion is not that high. Certainly not high enough to quit over. But a bunch of the feedback wasn't reacting to the gameplay, it was just reacting to the concept of evasion. I even saw signs of forum brigading (where a group of players collaborate to bitch about the same topic).

    Forum brigading isn't always bad. Sometimes it's a good thing, bringing to my attention something that I just hadn't given a lot of priority or thought to. But the response to evasion was pretty much the opposite of useful. A lot of people made VERY exaggerated claims, on the forums and via in-game feedback, about how much they were being evaded. (I do have logs...) Some people claimed that I had ruined the game, as if this were the first experiment I've ever run. This experiment is actually pretty tame!"

    -CITAN

    edit: a bunch of edits to just get it more smaller and to the point each time and less about citan that doesn't really belong here
    Last edited by Roekai; 06-11-2020 at 06:40 PM.

  8. #38
    Junior Member Cleo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    11
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Roekai View Post
    To CLEO:

    A 6% evasion is not that high. Certainly not high enough to quit over. But a bunch of the feedback wasn't reacting to the gameplay, it was just reacting to the concept of evasion. I even saw signs of forum brigading (where a group of players collaborate to bitch about the same topic).

    Forum brigading isn't always bad. Sometimes it's a good thing, bringing to my attention something that I just hadn't given a lot of priority or thought to. But the response to evasion was pretty much the opposite of useful. A lot of people made VERY exaggerated claims, on the forums and via in-game feedback, about how much they were being evaded. (I do have logs...) Some people claimed that I had ruined the game, as if this were the first experiment I've ever run. This experiment is actually pretty tame!"

    -CITAN

    edit: a bunch of edits to just get it more smaller and to the point each time and less about citan that doesn't really belong here
    So your argument is that I should not disagree with you because they added a 6% evasion to the game in the past and everyone hated it and mobbed the forums to complain?

    I don't think that makes the point you think it does.

  9. #39
    Member Roekai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    93
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    My argument is that evasion is "actually pretty tame" and not my "master plan" to render "half the combat system pointless."

    "It makes me wonder if this change would actually significantly affect anything at all."
    Last edited by Roekai; 06-11-2020 at 07:06 PM.

  10. #40
    Junior Member Cleo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    11
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Roekai View Post
    My argument is that evasion is "actually pretty tame" and not my "master plan" to render "half the combat system pointless."

    "It makes me wonder if this change would actually significantly affect anything at all."
    Then why add it? To annoy people who don't like evasion? If it isn't going to affect anything, then it isn't going to achieve your goal.


    If your goal is to guide people away from using a META, why not add a bunch of different late game dungeons and bosses that have different mechanics. If your goal is to get away from everyone using burst, then add a bunch of different late game duneons and bosses that burst doesn't work on. Add a dungeon filled with medium level mobs that require steady damage and healing and power regen. Or add a boss that gets enraged by large damage hits and has to be worn down using smaller damage hits. Or by specific elemental types of damage. Add areas with varying requirements that require diversity of playstyle. That will move people away from going straight burst. People can pick and choose which content they want to gear for. Or combo up with other players to make their current gear useful.

    I'm not disagreeing with your goal. I'm disagreeing with your solution. Other people have already said this stuff earlier.

    Evasion is annoying.



Thread Footer

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •