Dev Blog: How Will the Upcoming Steam Integration Work?

[fellentier]

Silvonis was reminding people that the game will change during beta. This will be a working beta, not a PR beta. Lots of big games these days use the word "beta" to mean "free play time," and you can expect very few changes during those betas. But we will be working very hard on the game design so a lot of things will change.

We do sometimes need to dramatically redesign skills, and basically reset them as a consequence. That's only happened a couple times during the game's long development time, so I expect it'd only happen once or twice during beta. But I don't know for sure. That's not even related to the "partial wipe". That's just something that might happen as we work on balance.

Much more likely than actually "wiping" a skill is changing it to the point where it's unrecognizable. I've talked about changing Battle Chemistry very dramatically by breaking it into two skills, and that still may happen. So what you currently call Battle Chemistry may not be the parts of the skill you love; they may be moved to a new skill. And if that happens, you'd need to level up that new skill to get it back. Other skills may get reworked in similar fashion.

And I can pretty much guarantee that your favorite abilities will change their stats, gear mods will be revamped multiple times, monsters' relative power will go up and down as we try to bring this very complex game into a basic sort of balance. (It'll never be perfectly balanced, as that would be impossible and also super boring. But it will be a lot more balanced than it is now.)

---

Let me put it another way. If, during beta, we realize something needs to be changed, we will NEVER say, "no, we can't make that change -- it's beta! Too late! The players' current characters would be impacted too much!" No. It's beta, meaning that it's the perfect time to make critical changes. So please expect them.

Also expect that we'll do our best, given the circumstances of each individual change, to lessen the impact of those changes. For instance, when skills have changed really dramatically in the past, we've given players free gear transmutations for a week to help get them back into fighting form. Or when an item is changed too heavily for the auto-updater to automatically rebuild the item, it becomes "legacy gear", which means it keeps working in its now-imbalanced state for 30 days to give you time to find a replacement. That sort of thing isn't always practical or called for, but we'll do what we can to keep beta players happy and engaged.

But yeah, changes. Tons of changes. Often uncomfortable nerfs. That's to be expected during beta. And if you don't want to deal with that, and want to wait until the game launches, that's entirely understandable.

I do have a question that has been on the top of my mind for a while. I'm very much so into min maxing and finding the best possible set up for what I want to do specifically, and i've found this game intrinsically complicated. I'ts been quite enjoyable, but I would like to know something. When you balance a skill, do you consider the effect of other skills on the primary when balancing it? Overall, it feels like it has been done quite well, minus a skill or two here and there, but synergy seems to be a complicated issue. I'm a huge fan of animalism and don't spend very much time researching other skills and their combined effects, but i've noticed that a large number of skills that animals can use are either entirely useless, or insanely powerful depending on the current animal form.


I just wanted to throw this out there because i've started to build around it and it feels... odd.

After doing some calculations on how abilities scale, reading other player input and getting a good idea of how everything works, mock is very strange. I'd suggest looking into it to see if you agree with how it functions. Currently, because it deals direct health damage, it actually ends up as one of the best DPS abilities you can get. If you have lycan, for example, being able to modify the base damage with the MASSIVE percent damage multipliers that it has access to, you can get it to well above 2,000 damage on a 6 sec (+4 with mods) cd with no cost, that is absolutely devastating.

This build does require a lot of build up for it, and some preemptive usage and ends up being something that requires a lot.. of mods. But also ends up being insanely efficient for single target damage (phsych lych).

[Gervase]

I don't mean to sound like a doo-doo head or anything.

But I hope the pricetag that comes along with this game isn't something out there like it claims to be on the store page (Digital Version: 39.99$)

I currently don't play right now because I felt the game wasn't in the right place, and perhaps it is on me for not divulging feedback sooner but then again - just from other games I have found that to be null. Regardless I have a certain passion for the game and will do so now.

- Character creation is limited. Not saying it needs to be overly zealous in the wrinkles I can have on my right cheek, but it helps to distinguish your character from others.

- Character models typically bug out when zooming in or out from them, when wearing certain pieces of gear, or even swimming. Hair disappears, stuff clips, etc.

- The armor in the game is downright hideous.

- Controls are honestly very clunky.

- I personally don't mind the animations all that much. But they could be improved (As with anything)

- I find the RNG of the item-drop system kind of annoying? I'm not saying break the game so that we can choose how we build piece by piece. But from my understanding (Which may be wrong) you essentially farm for gear that has random augmentations on them. You have no control on changing them, or extracting and replacing them to another piece, etc.

- I know the game boils down to 'having fun' as with any game, but (As you even said) beta is the time to do those drastic changes. I feel like there are a few classes which are severely under powered. Maybe I'm again, wrong, because I didn't have the 'perfect gear' set-up. I enjoyed the idea of being a Fire Druid. But I just found that in most cases, the druid skills were severely useless in some cases (Which is fine) but it was with -most- situations (In my experiences). I ended up going Fire Staff, which I found is twenty times better. Could of just been a lack of experimentation.

- Leveling up new abilities can sometimes be painful to do. No, I'm not saying make it easier. But the grind it self just doubles, or triples, and immediately saps the fun out of it. Considering it no longer is like.. 'Ok, I should use my wit to do X, Y, and Z to achieve my goal.' It instead is turned into 'Ok, just keep doing the same mindless task for a week and I'll rank it up!' Again, my own personal experience. No, I (honestly) don't care if you can level your skills in three days to the max.. or if 'you' found it easy. This is all from -my- experiences.

- While I know there are a lot of hidden features in the game that give it the enjoyable moments of spur - I think this is where PG is strong, continue down this path. Give us alternating and random mobs that appear in zones, events that trigger, etc. Going around and grinding favor and leveling up skills can get repetitive easy.

- Better tutorial. I'm not saying revamp the entire island. But there should be more hand holding in explaining stats, skills (Present and future), perhaps suggestions on basic combinations that synergize well, etc. Yeah -- A lot of 'hardcore' or 'DIY' would probably chew my head off, but I don't care. I COME from a hardcore gaming background. While I found learning stuff slowly 'fun' in a certain cruel way - It definitely left me ignorant for way longer than I needed to be. Don't give out all the good information - but at least explain to us what everything is capable of. If you think that's already present - add more. Anytime I've introduced friends to this game, they get bored and confused about an hour in. Usually -after- leaving the tutorial island.

- The game is obviously meant to draw people together into groups, there should be more content like the random events, mobs, etc. for those who play solo. I personally play solo, which is why I'm most likely ignorant to more complex things in-game, however I find it sometimes just 'boring' when trying to log in to play. It's like I can go do anything - and nothing at the same time. Nothing really drives me except my self. The most I can look forward to is a few things. More skill levels, more councils, more materials, and more gear. I don't really look for anything else beyond that (Besides the stuff in between like favor grinding). Sometimes I like the incentive to just go out and do anything at all. Maybe have towns provide daily tasks in exchange for money, a gear piece for the zones level, skill XP, etc.


I -could- go on, but this is just stuff off the top of my head. I'll speak to some of my friends who played and get their own 'comments' on the game. As they came in with no 'buttering up' from my self. The only reason I stuck with the game for a good amount of time is because I -was- having fun at one point, I no longer do when trying to even play test stuff. Which begs the question 'Should I be having fun?' Who knows.

Circling back to the original opening. I just hope you don't make this game pricey when putting it on early access, because if you do I guarantee it will not work. You'll have people buy it and then complain about wanting a refund. I'd shoot for 10$ being your MAX price.

Anyone is free to disagree, or to debate my points. I'll gladly stand and defend them.

[Celler]

OK thanks for the Clarification with regard to favor, I keep disappearing for long periods so imagine I just missed those posts.

[Tagamogi]

- Controls are honestly very clunky.

Can you give specific examples? I'm more of a slow keyboard person, so I may be missing some stuff but with all the post-new UI improvements, I feel the controls I'm interested in are mostly very very nice.

(Edit: Oh yeah, wait, targeting could use some help. What else?)

- I find the RNG of the item-drop system kind of annoying? I'm not saying break the game so that we can choose how we build piece by piece. But from my understanding (Which may be wrong) you essentially farm for gear that has random augmentations on them. You have no control on changing them, or extracting and replacing them to another piece, etc.

I don't think I get what you are saying here. If you extract an augment from an item that has only one mod for the skill gem that you are using, you will always get that augment. So, that applies to all green, blue and some orange gear. For gear with 2-3 mods for the skill gem that you use, you have at least a fairly decent chance of getting it. Obviously, you can't control if an item with a given mod will ever drop for you, but the odds of that are really pretty good.

Transmutation then allows you to change existing mods on gear. The new mod is chance-based but if you are willing to blow enough money on prisms and phlogiston, you should be able to get the mod you want eventually.

To me, RNG + transmutation + augmentation feels like a really nice system that both allows you to enjoy random great drops and to put in work to improve your gear.

- I feel like there are a few classes which are severely under powered. Maybe I'm again, wrong, because I didn't have the 'perfect gear' set-up. I enjoyed the idea of being a Fire Druid. But I just found that in most cases, the druid skills were severely useless in some cases (Which is fine) but it was with -most- situations (In my experiences). I ended up going Fire Staff, which I found is twenty times better. Could of just been a lack of experimentation.

Druid feels a bit underwhelming to me, too. Not bad, just not as exciting as some other skills. It feels like it would be a really nice skill if I could just use 8 abilities instead of 6.

There are a couple skills that feel like they could use some touch ups, but that's always the case in any game, even released ones. [ Suppressing rant about all the ways WoW modified my shaman and how shaman severely sucked compared to paladin at release. Well, maybe not suppressing it that well. ]

Maybe have towns provide daily tasks in exchange for money, a gear piece for the zones level, skill XP, etc.

Please, no dailies ever. Dailies for me quickly become required daily chores that suck all joy out of a game.

( I'm ok with Pennoc's and Lakrea's quests since they feel solidly optional to me. I do them when it's convenient and ignore them if it isn't. I'm not quite sure about the guild quests yet but it helps that they are at least on a weekly timer.)

- Cheating in the game (to my knowledge) is still entirely possible, and downright easy. While I didn't condone the action, nor' did I (or the user himself) use it to exploit any advantages, showed that simple stuff can easily manipulate some client side stuff like speed. I know you say to report exploiting and cheating when seen - but there isn't even enough in-game presence (Both players and mod / admin wise) to even do that.

But what you saw, you have reported, right? With details, so that the devs can take steps against it?

The only reason I stuck with the game for a good amount of time is because I -was- having fun at one point, I no longer do when trying to even play test stuff. Which begs the question 'Should I be having fun?' Who knows.

Well, I can't tell you you should be having fun. Tastes differ. I don't think it makes sense to base the price of a game on how much fun one particular player is having though. Fishing in my head for an example: Back in the day, you had to buy Guild Wars 2. Quite a few of my friends liked it, so when they had a free trial weekend, I tried it out. Based on my experience, I'd rate its worth as approximately negative $2000 since they'd have to pay me to play it again. That's likely not a price that most people would consider appropriate though.

[Gervase]

Can you give specific examples? I'm more of a slow keyboard person, so I may be missing some stuff but with all the post-new UI improvements, I feel the controls I'm interested in are mostly very very nice.


I don't think I get what you are saying here. If you extract an augment from an item that has only one mod for the skill gem that you are using, you will always get that augment. So, that applies to all green, blue and some orange gear. For gear with 2-3 mods for the skill gem that you use, you have at least a fairly decent chance of getting it. Obviously, you can't control if an item with a given mod will ever drop for you, but the odds of that are really pretty good.

Transmutation then allows you to change existing mods on gear. The new mod is chance-based but if you are willing to blow enough money on prisms and phlogiston, you should be able to get the mod you want eventually.

To me, RNG + transmutation + augmentation feels like a really nice system that both allows you to enjoy random great drops and to put in work to improve your gear.


Druid feels a bit underwhelming to me, too. Not bad, just not as exciting as some other skills. It feels like it would be a really nice skill if I could just use 8 abilities instead of 6.

There are a couple skills that feel like they could use some touch ups, but that's always the case in any game, even released ones. [ Suppressing rant about all the ways WoW modified my shaman and how shaman severely sucked compared to paladin at release. Well, maybe not suppressing it that well. ]


Please, no dailies ever. Dailies for me quickly become required daily chores that suck all joy out of a game.

( I'm ok with Pennoc's and Lakrea's quests since they feel solidly optional to me. I do them when it's convenient and ignore them if it isn't. I'm not quite sure about the guild quests yet but it helps that they are at least on a weekly timer.)


But what you saw, you have reported, right? With details, so that the devs can take steps against it?


Well, I can't tell you you should be having fun. Tastes differ. I don't think it makes sense to base the price of a game on how much fun one particular player is having though. Fishing in my head for an example: Back in the day, you had to buy Guild Wars 2. Quite a few of my friends liked it, so when they had a free trial weekend, I tried it out. Based on my experience, I'd rate its worth as approximately negative $2000 since they'd have to pay me to play it again. That's likely not a price that most people would consider appropriate though.

I just updated the game and played it. About the movement it self. I would say rather.. clunky may be the wrong word? It feels awkward at times moving around. Especially if jumping, turning, etc. It's a combination of the movement it self, the animations, and the sound. It feels awkward at times. (But I did take note of the extensive options for turning and other movement, so props there.)

I personally had to go read up on the wiki more about Augmentation and Transmutation. While I'm sure working with it hands on would make it much more clear, I get the general idea of it. It still has the process of RNG with some items and, as you said "Blowing the money" to eventually get what you want, is kind of "Okay-ish" in my opinion.

Druids just sadden me a bit. It's like we get a 'travel form', our titles, and are required to do these world events (If those still happen, or are a thing) but it is indeed very underwhelming for 'taking on the responsibility' of one. I think druids should be given more tools to operate with given their 'vows' so to speak.

By the dailies I mean something that is entirely optional and doesn't pop up on your screen on every daily log in. These can be random or generated tasks that would be listen from a town leader / bailiff just for extra work, experience, or gear for those of us who just want something 'to do' while getting some form of progression.

As with the cheating bit, as I stated. It was someone I knew who had done it - but it wasn't for the purpose of playing the game. They got off the tutorial island, did some random stuff here and there for ten to fifteen minutes. Then decided to see if the game had anti-cheat. It doesn't. They were very easily able to speed hack around the game. Shortly after, they just stopped playing. The game didn't engage them, or they didn't engage it (Which ever you'd like to think), the general animations and graphics of the gear and the characters was 'dull' to their opinion (Which I agree with), and they didn't like the idea of knowing the game had no means of anti-cheat. Though I would hope this is remedied when it goes onto Steam. Admins, mods, and players can't always be there to see this happening.

This was more of 'Should I be having fun?' when trying to gauge the games ability to be played. I of course (When playing PG a lot) -did- have fun. But at this point I just lack the drive to want to play. I feel as if I've hit a wall, can't really progress solo anymore (Which is of my own making) and generally don't enjoy the grind of some things with my limited time (Again, my own issue not so much the games). I feel I'd give PG more time if things were a bit more engaging, quirky, and solely focused on the idea of puzzles, using your wit, etc. etc.

In the end, both in response to Tagamogi and just the PG community and staff in general - I really do enjoy the game. I just can't play it right now as I have no drive to, and I most likely won't be picking it up when it comes onto Steam. I don't feel like it's ready. One of the biggest things is for me is that I personally dislike not having my friends to play with on this game, but they lost interest after the tutorial island. I did to, to some degree. But stuck it out to immerse my self and dig deeper. I think if the game had more stuff that mimicked the tutorial island - I'd find my self still playing.

I'm sure plenty of people will swear up and down that the game is full of such things, which I don't doubt.. but in my experience I've only found less and less. It's mainly just been reduced to grinding and just killing things for me.

The next few bits aren't meant to hammer at PG because of 'bad graphics'. I'm actually quite okay with the art style and the way things look. It's just in the manner they're done in is what bothers me, and the.. 'condition' of some.

[Karamasha]

Please, no dailies ever. Dailies for me quickly become required daily chores that suck all joy out of a game.

I am also against dailies, it's very common they become the main way of progression and money making.
In some games it almost became the only way of progression, like WoW during the Warlords of draenor expansion you made almost no gold if you didn't do the daily chores in the garrison. yuck!

[fellentier]

I am also against dailies, it's very common they become the main way of progression and money making.
In some games it almost became the only way of progression, like WoW during the Warlords of draenor expansion you made almost no gold if you didn't do the daily chores in the garrison. yuck!

I cannot agree more.

[Gervase]

I am also against dailies, it's very common they become the main way of progression and money making.
In some games it almost became the only way of progression, like WoW during the Warlords of draenor expansion you made almost no gold if you didn't do the daily chores in the garrison. yuck!

I cannot agree more.

So what would you suggest then. I honestly don't find much to engage the player other than 'Hey. My skill is now 60.' There isn't much drive to do anything other than to become stronger and better prepared, but it's a bit lack luster.

Like even now - I just don't play because I honestly am at a loss on how to proceed, and don't find the content of my level all that interesting. Even heard the same thing from multiple people when I had them trying the game that the tutorial island was a great and engaging area - but everything after that was just shallow.

Not entirely interested in the stalwart defenders of 'Well, they just can't appreciate the lack of hand holding and the concept of seeking out information or things to do.' Because what is going to happen is - is people will start in the game, be drawn in by the tutorial, then thrusted out into a world that while is curiously fun to explore and learn about, they'll be extremely ignorant on how to proceed unless they gain a lot of assistance both through web-searching and other players. Which deters people and sometimes misleads them into ruts and then they never return. This would also be a different situation if the game was just released onto steam for free (But that isn't the case here)

I play another game that has this issue, and it ends up TRAPPING players in the starting city because otherwise they're unable to fend for themselves outside of it. It coddles and feeds very little information - then leaves you on your own. Which appeals to some, but given the gameplay and other things as I mentioned in previous posts (Along with unspoken issues and just general gameplay) leads to a decline in playing.

To be fair. I'm just going to take a stab and say (currently) with the way PG is, it'll appeal to a very niche group of people (More niche than they're projecting) and just from speaking to the community both in-game and on the forums on multiple occasions - those who currently play are more than likely set in the idea that the game is fine proceeding how it is.

I agree entirely with my friend, even if it was blunt and rude. I don't think the game is really ready for a paid release - and if it does follow through, it'll probably flop hard on the account of how niche it is. Which isn't bad - but just the current content I really don't think is going to hold many players beyond those who are here (Already dedicated) and those who want something as specific as this.

[Silvonis]

@Gervase: It's obvious that you have issues with Project: Gorgon and that's okay, not all games will appeal to all people. We appreciate your feedback, but if you are unhappy with the fundamental aspects of Project: Gorgon then you may be better off playing a game like Final Fantasy. I’ve read your comments and, to be frank, you are complaining about incomplete game systems in an in-development game. Honestly, it sounds like you just want to ‘play’ rather than ‘test’ and if that’s the case you would probably be better off just coming back closer to the official launch.

As far as this thread is concerned, let's keep it on track. If you want to start a different thread to continue with your feedback, you are more than welcome to do so. Thanks.

[Nyssa74]

@Gervase
Then perhaps this niche game is not for you. And doesnt almost any game eventually boils down to becoming stronger and better prepared as you said?

If they went as so many mmos do with the hand holding I would not play this game!
Getting tired of 90% of mmos or other games practically use an arrow pointing your every step you have to go to.
I come from the era when Everquest 1 and 2 was my life and things were hard! in game.
They did screw up EQ2 when they made it "easier" for casuals.
Maybe its just me but its not that difficult. Talk to the npc, explore everything, enough small hints as to what should be done or where to go mostly. And if anyones having problems with something just ask, the community is very very helpful, they dont bite...much, love it when I have to figure out something and just go and try and most likely fail the 1st time.All is part of the game.
Why would asking/looking for help deter people? If they want simple run of the mill games this is not where they should be.

Im getting the feeling your posts conclusion is more of a "I dont want to pay ( enter amount ) as it is/ not rdy yet for you" which amount isnt even certain yet, besides the fear that the game may or may not do well.
Though I would easily pay about $30 now cause Im enjoying it so much and I dont even have much to spend to be honest.

Speaking from my view who just recently started Im loving this game, even if the char creation is lacking or combat isnt super duper high end blade and soul type or whatever game that has better combat, or still has some bugs/issues, which are still being reported, at least I do.

Im in the lvl30ties and have a ton to do from quests to learning, lvling certain skills and I dont find anything shallow at all.
Not in a hurry and enjoying the world/immersion and lore while figuring out skill combinations that suits my play style.
I am prob one of the few players who dont care about xp and dont hurry to high to max lv.
Also have 2 alts so got my hands full. Im really having a blast with my fellow guildies.
Dont even touch most of the so called triple A games I have.

I too showed the game to some friends and they also were not sure about graphics, combat etc, now one of them is addicted heh.
For me the game is fun. I wont tell you what you should do, thats your prerogative but I think you have answered yourself how you feel about the game in multiple posts.
If Im not having fun I will not play. I have played tons of mmos and 98% screwed up at a certain point for me, which usually was not listening/no feedback to playerbase, no updates/optimizations or simply a cashgrab.
I hope the small group of people working on this game can keep it up, polish the game further and add more content for high lvls eventually. At least I wont be there any time soon, have lots to do ingame.

Almost everyone has a different taste/interest and speaking from many experiences usually my views will differ( also the reason for example why I dont care much about other reviews/taste/rottentomatoes/imdb etc etc, I want to try/see it myself if Im able to).
But like admin said this is not the thread for it heh.