Update Discussion: August 28, 2017

[kazeandi]

To me p2w is buying gear or weapons or even things that give direct access to getting those items.

That would play a role in a PVP game, where gear is the central focus. It's a different case here. We have lots of inconvenient factors to combat, the whole game is based on "if you want X, then do Y first, but for that, you need Z and (insert 5 random trash items) per step". Part of this is fun, because you have to plan out your route, whereas execution sometimes isn't. Inventory management is a huge factor here, as is vendor juggling. The crafting systems are designed in a way that make you want to be self-sustaining (because of interdependence), many people here craft all their stuff themselves and have all crafts leveled or in queue for later.

In such a scenario, 5 more inventory or 10% faster plant growth or 10% bonus foraging is worth more than a better weapon or armor, because, all in all, combat is not the only big thing here.

So, when devs talk about "only convenience items", all the red flags rise at once. Not because I think this particular dev is malevolent, but because I've been burnt more than once by such talk. Where convenience ends and P2W starts is constant subject of debate.

[srand]

Firstly, my sincere apologies - I am mis-remembering about a cash shop. (This is why I use caveats when I am wandering into conversations; I am very much capable of getting it wrong! But I will always try to correct myself when I find out.) In this case, I was getting confused with what I know about the optional VIP subscription ... which, admittedly, isn't at all pinned down yet.

So I'll just re-iterate the basics that I am very certain about: Citan abhors P2W and has no intention of taking development in that direction. The optional VIP subscription will really help illuminate that line, I think ... when we have more details on that.

But as you know and probably get tired of hearing, we are very early in development and not everything can happen at once. So in the meantime we can only be very upfront with you about our goals - and we try to do that. And this is as true of game systems like Skills and combat as it is true of anything else.

... Which brings us back to the rest of the discussion thread!




@kazeandi: I am glad you don't think we're actively malevolent.

[drivendawn]

Firstly, my sincere apologies - I am mis-remembering about a cash shop. (This is why I use caveats when I am wandering into conversations; I am very much capable of getting it wrong! But I will always try to correct myself when I find out.) In this case, I was getting confused with what I know about the optional VIP subscription ... which, admittedly, isn't at all pinned down yet.

So I'll just re-iterate the basics that I am very certain about: Citan abhors P2W and has no intention of taking development in that direction. The optional VIP subscription will really help illuminate that line, I think ... when we have more details on that.

But as you know and probably get tired of hearing, we are very early in development and not everything can happen at once. So in the meantime we can only be very upfront with you about our goals - and we try to do that. And this is as true of game systems like Skills and combat as it is true of anything else.

... Which brings us back to the rest of the discussion thread!




@kazeandi: I am glad you don't think we're actively malevolent.

Thank you for the clarification on that Srand.

[Khaylara]

Since the conversation seems derailed towards pay 2 win, I doubt we'll ever have that in P:G. Additional character slots for a small sub is not p2w. P2w is being able to buy items from the cash shop/with cash shop currency that can never/very rarely be obtained via playing. I.e. on a private server pay $ 100 and get an enchanted +10 weapon when just by playing you can't get more than say +4. That's my definition for pay 2 win-special pets, special gear, skills that can't be obtained simply by playing.

Convenience in my books is "do a quest to become a wolf or pay to have a character directly wolf" (this is actually in a kickstarter package). Yes, you don't waste 1 hour on becoming lycan, you conveniently get it by default cause you paid for it. Is that "winning"? No, it's convenient but it's not obtainable only via cash shop. Same goes for (future) mounts. You can do a quest to get one or get one by purchasing a package. It's not package exclusive item.

@kazeandil and Atis (sorry but since i was blocked ingame there's no other way to adress them) - srand avoids being blunt but me as a part of this community I would like to ask you both to rethink the tone of your posts and your in-game rants. Criticizing is one thing but insinuating that the devs impose limitations so they can cash on them is kinda offensive. Me personally as a player dislike it as in 3 years of playing I learned that much about them-it's a passion project not a cash cow.

[kazeandi]

@kazeandi: I am glad you don't think we're actively malevolent.

Ubisoft or EA are (releasing half a game, rest via DLC), or certain f2p publishers (read up on the shops in Archeage or BDO), those would be cases where the policy seems to be "milk em till they topple over".

I do think though that the base of this game is busywork. Time- and moneysinks in abundance, and selling ways to circumvent that would imply that all this is made the way it is as incentives for buyers.

I'm sure you don't want that, but in order to avoid it, you have to redefine what "convenience" means for PG. That's why I'm being such an annoying commenter.

[kazeandi]

@Khaylara i don't imply they do it, i mention that it looks like that's the intention and if they want to avoid it, they have to be careful.

Btw, you're not blocked ingame (or /unignore doesn't work properly), i'm just not online, is all. Not that i'd want to take forum discussions into the game when i am. Too busy clicking my way to gardening 50 :/

[Atis]

Since the conversation seems derailed towards pay 2 win, I doubt we'll ever have that in P:G. Additional character slots for a small sub is not p2w. P2w is being able to buy items from the cash shop/with cash shop currency that can never/very rarely be obtained via playing. I.e. on a private server pay $ 100 and get an enchanted +10 weapon when just by playing you can't get more than say +4. That's my definition for pay 2 win-special pets, special gear, skills that can't be obtained simply by playing.

Convenience in my books is "do a quest to become a wolf or pay to have a character directly wolf" (this is actually in a kickstarter package). Yes, you don't waste 1 hour on becoming lycan, you conveniently get it by default cause you paid for it. Is that "winning"? No, it's convenient but it's not obtainable only via cash shop. Same goes for (future) mounts. You can do a quest to get one or get one by purchasing a package. It's not package exclusive item.

@kazeandil and Atis (sorry but since i was blocked ingame there's no other way to adress them) - srand avoids being blunt but me as a part of this community I would like to ask you both to rethink the tone of your posts and your in-game rants. Criticizing is one thing but insinuating that the devs impose limitations so they can cash on them is kinda offensive. Me personally as a player dislike it as in 3 years of playing I learned that much about them-it's a passion project not a cash cow.

First things first. I ONLY answered to that "convenience in cashshop" remark. srand may not be aware how jaded mmo veterans can take this line. Whatever insinuations you heard are on you. Also what was that about ingame block? i dont have any.

Now for the rest. "Pay or do quest" implies 2 things - quest is so bad ppl would like to pay to avoid it, you can pay your way through hardships and limitations. Since grinding is only thing you can do in P:G and only available "win" is to progress further, paid speed up would be p2w. All those excuses "but nothing is paywalled, you can grind for 5 years 24/7 and get item that can be instantly bought in shop" are old and tired.

But since srand corrected himself, we are just having distracting tangents here. No cashshop is planned ATM so nothing to discuss.

[kazeandi]

Also what was that about ingame block? i dont have any.

That was about me putting Khaylara on my ignore list ingame. I've removed her from that list already, but that doesn't mean I wanna sit somewhere and chat about this kind of stuff ingame. My gaming time is limited, forum access is almost always possible.

[Khaylara]

Now for the rest. "Pay or do quest" implies 2 things - quest is so bad ppl would like to pay to avoid it, you can pay your way through hardships and limitations. Since grinding is only thing you can do in P:G and only available "win" is to progress further, paid speed up would be p2w. All those excuses "but nothing is paywalled, you can grind for 5 years 24/7 and get item that can be instantly bought in shop" are old and tired.

But since srand corrected himself, we are just having distracting tangents here. No cashshop is planned ATM so nothing to discuss.

srand is "herself".Your posts and ingame rants are full of negative comments and I shouldn't expect anything else I suppose BUT this is a tad exaggerated even for you. Grind 24/7 for 5 to become lycan or unlock fae? Srsly, does that sound like pay 2 win to anyone else? Cause obviously you've never played a real p2w game lol.


I recommend reading the kickstarter notes and the store packages still available before assuming the worst and spreading it on Global.
@srand I hope you guys stay safe and Irma leaves you alone

[kazeandi]

You're overdoing it with the ad hominem here, Khaylara.