Dev Notes, March 10 2017

[Niph]

. New group size and loot rules
I like the change to the group size, but the loot rule, not so much. I think there is a difficulty in term of game design now: if you want the easy dungeon to be for 3 people, and the hard ones for 6, the small group may have a much easier life than the full one. When 3 in group, you can add a 4th and not worry too much about it. But if you have a group of 5, will you start moving now or wait for a 6th that may never show up?

Right now, there is in my opinion a significant difference in viability between a group of 5 and one of 6. I would go to Gazluk Keep second floor with 6, but with only 5 it sounds much harder. Of course, the dungeon can be balanced again to be easier, but my point really is that with a group of 6 no 7th character can follow you until the group has a spot for them. They only get trash loot, and that's assuming all non-elite trash are left open for them to loot.

So rather that keeping anyone else from looting elite mobs your group just killed, I would put a timer on it. And as time goes on, more and more people would be able to loot. This way, if 7 people play together (6 in a group, 1 outside), they can share the loot eventually, but if 12 play together it slows down everyone so much that it's no longer the most rewarding way to play the game.

This is assuming there won't be ways to add people to a group already deep inside a dungeon, and help them catch up fast. Something like a "summon to group" ability, that we don't have in the game yet.

. Bard
I'm surprised by the move restriction on songs. Why does a move stop the song? For one thing I don't understand the motivation. And there are lots of good reasons to move all the time: short abilities range, mobs in PG tends to push or pull you all the time, fights are short so everyone moves up constantly. I doesn't seem practical to me, and I don't understand why it is needed.

. Skills in group
This is to respond to several comments about how archers are required, and that if you're not archer/druid or sword/mentalist you're useless (ok, no useless of course, just... not perfect!)
First of all archers aren't the only ones that can pull infiltrators, spiders can too and I believe (but haven't tested) that pig could pull other mobs around infiltrators.
Second of all, anyone can be an archer for a pull, all you need is level 7 in the skill, a bow and some beginner's arrows. True, you only have one effective skill for the rest of the fight, but admit it, most of us have a main skill and a secondary that we can drop for a fight. On one occurrence, our archer had been chain pulled by several infiltrators and was lying dead far ahead. I just loaded archery, used that level 7 hookshot on the entire group of mobs in front of us until they were all killed one by one, and then reloaded my main build. No big deal.
Moral of the story: with some preparation a group without "archer" can do perfectly fine. Second moral: since they are excellent DPS anyway, bring all archers you can get.

[Silvonis]

A quick word to those comments who are suggesting that there is a ‘required’ skillset in order to be successful in Gazluk Keep: that is not necessarily a fair assessment as there are multiple viable skillsets that would be beneficial to a group progressing through the Keep. There will, of course, be certain skillsets that are more advantageous in certain areas of the game but the group composition does play a major role and just because a certain skillset is perceived as more advantageous does not mean it can’t be done or we are forcing you to use that skillset. Gazluk Keep is intended to be a difficult dungeon and should be a step up in difficulty. It should be to the advantage of the party to arrange a group composition and work through strategy to make progress. Simply looking to zerg with a giant group was never the intention of any dungeon or progressive content.

All that said, if you feel things are unbalanced in certain areas (Gazluk Keep is freshly implemented, so imbalance is expected) then try and provide us specific examples of your critique but remember – this is intended to be a hard dungeon and group composition and strategy matters! If you can record your groups progression through areas and point out specifics that would be fantastic feedback. You can use a free program like OBS and capture your adventure and upload it to YouTube and send us the link along with your detailed feedback (ie group composition, areas of concern,etc.).

[Aedorn]

I'm not sure where the 'required' portion came in for sword/mentalism and archery/druid. From my recollection I was the only to mention it, and said it was optimal.

Optimal != Required

Also, it seems there's a misunderstanding of why it's optimal. It's not about the hook shot - that is a bonus of it, not a need for it. That bonus can be completely eliminated by placing strategic blocks around sparingly.

Now, why is it optimal? It's that the split of skills between those 4 the group will never be at a disadvantage, and it's the highest trash clearing damage you can get (in Gazluk Keep, not in general) due to innate resistances throughout. Which mitigates the respawn issue. Notice I said trash and not boss. Everything tends to average out in longer fights, so bosses you can be vastly different and still average about the same. Trash clearing is about upfront burst damage and clearing quickly, and that clears the quickest here due to the resistances throughout.

Can you do it with other groups? Absolutely, never said otherwise. Will your group composition that doesn't have this very specific set (3 and 3), be as fast as one that does? No. Should it stop you from doing something different? No, don't be crazy.

I only mentioned it because it's the first dungeon that one setup is actually more optimal than another.

[Khaylara]

Detailing what I meant, hope I can translate my thoughts better this time. It's an older problem which will get worse when a group is limited to 6. Again, I like the lower group size and the loot lock. Please remember I said that:P

Now the thing is archers are horribly OP atm, it's not only about hook shot. It's the need for dps only (and some heals). There is no need already for tank or utility builds. Example cause Silvonis asked-Khaylara is fire+staff atm. Fire is inefficient in GK and staff...3 archers in group and I don't even have time to reach the mob and it's dead. My purpose as a tank/cc is gone. Why would I play that build when I can do archer+psych again and demolish everything. I reported the OP aspect already on Archery+Psychology and Archery+Mentalism. Since the balance is nonexistent, all you need is a group of 6 archers with druid or ment as secondary and you literally have no need for any other build.

The problem I see is pretty obvious really if you check the logs for the groups that are most successful in GK (hence my sword+ment and archery comment). I don't see a place there for AH, necromancy, UA, staff...honestly if you have only 6 slots in a group what would you take? Bunch of dps builds who wipe everything within seconds or you'll take the painful way with a bunch of staff, ice magic etc players? i believe that the lack of need for tanking or utility (or even dedicated healer) will force us to "clone" few successful builds and we continue the vicious cycle of zergs.

Bottom line is right now all that's needed in a group is raw dps (archery being the most OP skill atm, crits of 10k+ are really insane). That will become more obvious when the group size is smaller. I think that needs to be worked on so hybrid utility, tanks or healer builds are needed aswell.
My suggestions
-reconsider the +140 crit mods on archery, ment and psychology (more bluntly put nerf those mods and before anyone starts to flame, I have all the 3 skills i want nerfed)
-lower either the difficulty of the elites or the size of the groups they spawn in.
-introduce more "must have" abilities (like the knockbacks in Lab), mobs become vulnerable only if stunned/knocked back/asked about their mothers or whatever else. Please look at the overall picture: increase the mobs stats...what does that translate into in term of group members? You guessed...dps.

!Aedorn...Aws I'm guessing? I can't tell who it is but if so, yes, I believe you made that comment and it's accurate. And archery+psych/ment/druid is not OP only in GK, it applies to most mobs. Since I tried those myself I can say there's no comparison. Fire is supposed to be higher dps than archery and it's not. Strangely fire doesn't even work too well on frozen land mobs (you'd think the opposite would be true...). Someone who plays archer mentioned a 16 k crit today and I believe him, i saw him almost 1 shotting an elite in GK. That's not balance and there's no need for like my UA+ment build there for example...the only point for it would be the massive damage i do with mentalism. Again, dps and more dps. I am quite curious to try GK with a group of 6 with no archer or just one archer. I have a feeling that's gonna be a short adventure xD


I am curious what others think, people who play hammer, staff, shield, animals, AH, necromancy etc, do you see any need (actual need not "let's tag along with guildies") for your builds at level 70 in a group of 6?



I realize most disagree with what I said, my point is groups should not need only DPS players. And atm that's the situation, made worse by increasing elites's stats and by (in the near future) reducing the group size.

[Citan]

Yes, we'll be making a few balance changes for the next update, including changing how archery crits work. The existing archery mods were designed for the short-term because (at the time) you couldn't get most of the anatomy skills past about 30-ish, realistically, so the crit mods needed to stack to very high numbers to make the relatively-rare critical hits worthwhile. But that's not the case now, so the mods need to work differently.

We're also going to revise monsters and spawn rates in Gazluk based on feedback. I'm completely confident we will eventually have a fun play experience for six-group teams. It will take some iterations, that's all. Right now the orcs in GK are a bit too samey, mainly because all orcs in the game have the same damage-resistances. (Damage-resistance is by "species", so all snails have the same, all worgs, etc.) But I'm going to break that rule for GK and give some orcs different resistance types. I'm going to change the spawn rate and patterns as well. Then we'll see how that feels and get more feedback.

In the short term what I could really use feedback on is the various bosses -- which are hardest, which are easiest, and why? What needs to be done to make them work better? I have some decent feedback on the hallway elites, but not much on the bosses.

Also, just a note on "trash monsters" -- there are some trash monsters, but Elites are never trash. They drop top-tier equipment and have a chance for top-rarity mods. Even if the only thing your group can do in GK is kill elite monsters, you will still accumulate great loot and wealth, and that's by design. I know rewards are always perceived relative to other rewards, but elites are NOT trash in my book!

[Khaylara]

By "trash" I think people mean the non-elites, the trainees etc. I appreciate you got my point, I can run that dungeon np (admittedly I don't have the patience for a full run, it's a bit linear atm because every time I ran it it was with at least 15 people) but the (smaller) groups need ....I don't want to call it meta but that's the general idea. Otherwise everyone who's level 70 ends up playing the same 2-3 optimal builds and you end up with no data on anything else+we get bored.


On archery+psych/ment- I started experimenting with that after the halloween event last year when i decided to switch back to archery/psych. Iirc it's possible to apply 4 archery mods for 140 crit each+2 psych/ment mods on top of those (I tried for more but apparently the psych/ment mods have only 2 possible slots). I haven't unlocked them to 70 but at 60+ I had 600+ crit. I think that translates into 700+ at level cap, it's awfully high.

[Easylivin]

Detailing what I meant, hope I can translate my thoughts better this time. It's an older problem which will get worse when a group is limited to 6. Again, I like the lower group size and the loot lock. Please remember I said that:P

Now the thing is archers are horribly OP atm, it's not only about hook shot. It's the need for dps only (and some heals). There is no need already for tank or utility builds. Example cause Silvonis asked-Khaylara is fire+staff atm. Fire is inefficient in GK and staff...3 archers in group and I don't even have time to reach the mob and it's dead. My purpose as a tank/cc is gone. Why would I play that build when I can do archer+psych again and demolish everything. I reported the OP aspect already on Archery+Psychology and Archery+Mentalism. Since the balance is nonexistent, all you need is a group of 6 archers with druid or ment as secondary and you literally have no need for any other build.

The problem I see is pretty obvious really if you check the logs for the groups that are most successful in GK (hence my sword+ment and archery comment). I don't see a place there for AH, necromancy, UA, staff...honestly if you have only 6 slots in a group what would you take? Bunch of dps builds who wipe everything within seconds or you'll take the painful way with a bunch of staff, ice magic etc players? i believe that the lack of need for tanking or utility (or even dedicated healer) will force us to "clone" few successful builds and we continue the vicious cycle of zergs.

Bottom line is right now all that's needed in a group is raw dps (archery being the most OP skill atm, crits of 10k+ are really insane). That will become more obvious when the group size is smaller. I think that needs to be worked on so hybrid utility, tanks or healer builds are needed aswell.
My suggestions
-reconsider the +140 crit mods on archery, ment and psychology (more bluntly put nerf those mods and before anyone starts to flame, I have all the 3 skills i want nerfed)
-lower either the difficulty of the elites or the size of the groups they spawn in.
-introduce more "must have" abilities (like the knockbacks in Lab), mobs become vulnerable only if stunned/knocked back/asked about their mothers or whatever else. Please look at the overall picture: increase the mobs stats...what does that translate into in term of group members? You guessed...dps.

!Aedorn...Aws I'm guessing? I can't tell who it is but if so, yes, I believe you made that comment and it's accurate. And archery+psych/ment/druid is not OP only in GK, it applies to most mobs. Since I tried those myself I can say there's no comparison. Fire is supposed to be higher dps than archery and it's not. Strangely fire doesn't even work too well on frozen land mobs (you'd think the opposite would be true...). Someone who plays archer mentioned a 16 k crit today and I believe him, i saw him almost 1 shotting an elite in GK. That's not balance and there's no need for like my UA+ment build there for example...the only point for it would be the massive damage i do with mentalism. Again, dps and more dps. I am quite curious to try GK with a group of 6 with no archer or just one archer. I have a feeling that's gonna be a short adventure xD


I am curious what others think, people who play hammer, staff, shield, animals, AH, necromancy etc, do you see any need (actual need not "let's tag along with guildies") for your builds at level 70 in a group of 6?



I realize most disagree with what I said, my point is groups should not need only DPS players. And atm that's the situation, made worse by increasing elites's stats and by (in the near future) reducing the group size.

Lets be clear about the OP builds as we aren't able to single skill anymore. I run archery/druid and have never crit that high. The issue with archery/ment or archery/psyc is the extra 300% CRIT damage. 700% is a bit much.
With archery/druid I do slightly better than average for dps, much better than previous builds but I never always get the kill. If I'm lucky I'll get the kill using 2-3 powerful attacks then I'm out of power for 2-3 mobs. Then I can maybe get the kill.

[Easylivin]

Yes, we'll be making a few balance changes for the next update, including changing how archery crits work. The existing archery mods were designed for the short-term because (at the time) you couldn't get most of the anatomy skills past about 30-ish, realistically, so the crit mods needed to stack to very high numbers to make the relatively-rare critical hits worthwhile. But that's not the case now, so the mods need to work differently.

We're also going to revise monsters and spawn rates in Gazluk based on feedback. I'm completely confident we will eventually have a fun play experience for six-group teams. It will take some iterations, that's all. Right now the orcs in GK are a bit too samey, mainly because all orcs in the game have the same damage-resistances. (Damage-resistance is by "species", so all snails have the same, all worgs, etc.) But I'm going to break that rule for GK and give some orcs different resistance types. I'm going to change the spawn rate and patterns as well. Then we'll see how that feels and get more feedback.

In the short term what I could really use feedback on is the various bosses -- which are hardest, which are easiest, and why? What needs to be done to make them work better? I have some decent feedback on the hallway elites, but not much on the bosses.

Also, just a note on "trash monsters" -- there are some trash monsters, but Elites are never trash. They drop top-tier equipment and have a chance for top-rarity mods. Even if the only thing your group can do in GK is kill elite monsters, you will still accumulate great loot and wealth, and that's by design. I know rewards are always perceived relative to other rewards, but elites are NOT trash in my book!

With a 6 person group in good 60-70 gear... Most difficult is the healer suit dude, he lives for a long time even with the crystals gone.. Then golem, I use all my abilities and have about 10 seconds of CD before I can do attack again, but then the golem dies soon after I can attack. Dog is the easiest on the first floor, too easy maybe. 2nd floor I haven't given a "fair shot" with 6 players so I can give the feedback you need.

[Sheawanna]

We're also going to revise monsters and spawn rates in Gazluk based on feedback. I'm completely confident we will eventually have a fun play experience for six-group teams. It will take some iterations, that's all. Right now the orcs in GK are a bit too samey, mainly because all orcs in the game have the same damage-resistances. (Damage-resistance is by "species", so all snails have the same, all worgs, etc.) But I'm going to break that rule for GK and give some orcs different resistance types. I'm going to change the spawn rate and patterns as well. Then we'll see how that feels and get more feedback.

This here will make all the difference IMHO making more classes viable .

[ShieldBreaker]

@Citan shouldn't the orcs be able to use their

. If they had a bunch of different ones, they could really mix up their resistances and chances of being hit. If each type of orc had one that buffed all their nearby allies, then maybe a more balanced group would be needed to take them down. A ranged evade could really slow down an all archer group. So you don't have to break the rule about Damage-resistance is by "species". Probably difficult but I think if one member of an orc group got hooked shot in sight of the group, they would start buffing themselves for range evade or maybe a pull protection. Of course the different groups all have different armor so could bend the rule by following what they types should be wearing as armor.