All About the VIP Membership Program - Questions & Discussion

[Avoret]

Can you please explain how that is a massive disadvantage? It takes a few more minutes to complete a batch of surveys...surely that's not it?

Using one of the available tools, I can complete 150 maps in about 25 minutes. I doubt I'm even very fast at it, others(especially those who can fly) are likely much faster than I am.

Without said tools, I'd be spending minutes just trying to figure out which map I'm supposed to go to next out of such a massive pile of maps. Arguably you could presort the maps into the desired route you want to take, but this would likely take more time than completing all the maps using the help of said tools.

[alleryn]

You would be shown to others with both names, like "Bob Newhart", but people would still just /tell Bob hi.

/tell Norman_Borden_the_Mormon_Doorman Moo Goo Gai Pan

[Mcnasty]

No plans to change what names are allowed. If we ever do allow multi-word names it probably wouldn't be a VIP-specific feature, and it would probably not be part of your "real" name anyway. For instance if you marry a human NPC, perhaps you could take their last name. You would be shown to others with both names, like "Bob Newhart", but people would still just /tell Bob hi.

Citan you of all people should know better than to give McNasty any ideas on a second name. haha

[PezOfDoom]

Thinking further on it, the additional alts gives a VIP a pretty big advantage relating to milk gathering and milk related things. Probably not that big of a deal overall, but is there any plans to limit that kind of harvesting to only the non-vip slot characters of an account?

[Tandiril]

Looks OK to me, the only thing I am not convinced about are the character slots. Or to be more precise, VIP to be the *only* way of having additional character slots.
- If my membership runs out while I don't have the time to take care about the order of my characters, I will be required to refresh it. Especially if you consider that some of the VIP features aim at people who cannot play that consistently.
- Even if I get the order right, it means that if I want to have access to more than 4 characters reliably, I need a permanent subscription. In a game that plans on having unlockable races, this is especially restrictive. 3 base races + 3 races that need to be unlocked in the first place, each with their own capabilities with potentially large impacts (for example fairies having additional abilities for KF, Ment) -> this seems like a bad idea.
- This is the first MMO I have seen where character slots are included in a subscription (and are therefore not permanent). Granted I have played maybe 3 other titles myself, but I think that character slots should be something you unlock/buy on a permanent basis. You can probably add them in a VIP subscription (more stuff is always nice), but I think this game needs some additional slots on a permanent basis as well. Personally I am pretty sure I would buy 1 or 2 given the chance.

[Sprurvur]

What is so bad about extra character slots and extra inventory slots in a non-pvp game? What sort of balance is meant to be uphold by not having that? The amount of exp you can get in all skills is finite, sure the autodidactism skill could be handy, but it probably wont outperform a player that runs with AH/skill-to-be-trained. Or even just running trainer/trainer in a qatik daily once in a while, totally possible with the sidebar skills that do dmg, and a group that just steamrolls anyway.
They say its a soft launch of ViP anyways, prob gonna get some itirations if they so choose.

[Drex]

I'm not really a fan of the VIP systems in games in general. There is no way to make a VIP system that feels worth it enough to get but not so worth it that you don't feel like you're missing out by not having it. Either it sucks and no one wants it, or it's good and everyone will want it but some won't have it and will have a worse gaming experience because of it.

Selling inventory slots and character slots is a perfect example of creating a problem and selling the solution. The devs are actively capping your inventory in the hopes you will feel like you don't have enough space and will be enticed to buy VIP. And this is how this kind of system starts. If not enough people buy VIP they will have to start doing other things to entice you to buy it. XP boosts, currency boosts, log in rewards, and so on are examples of what they will eventually have to add if VIP isn't successful enough. There is no finding the right balance here. There is no right balance. You either don't need VIP and the system will be basically unused or you will feel like you need it for "convenience" and then it's just a matter of if you can afford it or not.

I honestly like the idea of the new skill but hiding it behind a paywall is pure and simple pay to win. There is literally no reason not to use this skill when not playing. Except maybe if you want to do a specific hang out I guess. So essentially what you've actually added is an xp boost system dressed up and disguised as something else. Sure it's a bit difficult to use as you have to level it up, but that's what it is, an xp boost.

So what would my solution be? Make the game free to play up to level 10 or 20. Kinda like how the demo is now. Then add a monthly subscription that everyone must have to play the game beyond that point. I know this probably won't be popular with everyone and especially newer MMO players but this system allows players to always be on equal footing. It's basically the only way to do a monthly sub where there aren't pay to win elements added on.

The other option I guess would be to make VIP purely cosmetic. Fancy VIP dyes, VIP character models, VIP armor/weapon skins, etc. I personally am not a big fan of this system because it always ends up with VIP having the best looking items and you don't earn them, you just buy them with your money. So maybe, make it a VIP crafting skill with items that only you can use, or make it so VIPs can do certain quests that non-VIPs can't that allow you to unlock these cosmetics and make the quest chain long and difficult. That way you aren't just handed the best looking gear but you still need VIP to get it. And I'm talking purely looks. This should be some sort of transfmog if you go this route.

[Yaffy]

As someone who really really hates P2W in games I was very worried about the VIP system, but honestly it's not as bad as I thought. Any sort of game play advantage you can buy for real money constitutes p2w and therefore the VIP system certainly qualifies, but the "Amount" of p2w from a microtransaction can vary greatly (Ex. Buying 100000 gold for 1$ is "more" p2w than buying 100 gold for 1$) and personally I don't believe the VIP system is that big of a deal from what it sounds like (Unless AutoD gives tons of exp or something). Here's my logic for it by trying to determine the gold value of the VIP system:

The biggest advantage for longer term players is most likely going to be the extra inventory slots, since it's basically like an extra piece of pocket gear which doesn't take up a precious equipment slot. I think the absolute minimum price of such a thing would probably be the equivalent of 20k (Since that's about what a pocket piece of gear would sell for). However since it doesn't take up an equipment slot it's most likely much more valuable than that as there are no downsides to using it (And therefore "Optimally" you would always want it). As a highball estimate, +15 slots means +15 items each time you do a dungeon run, which could be ~7-15k per run, meaning that if you do a dungeon run a day you could be looking at something like 250-500k over the course of a month of playing.

Now that might sound ridiculous, but even with a very optimistic value of 500k extra councils earned per month, the VIP sub still costs 12$, so that would mean you're getting about 41k per dollar spent. If you're playing the game a lot and high enough level to actually earn 500k of of the sub like this, then 41k per dollar isn't really a big deal for what might be ~60 hours to get that value in the first place. If someone is playing 24/7 then it would be more valuable but if someone is grinding their ass off I can't be too upset at them getting more money compared to someone outright buying gold for real money.

I think my biggest problem with the VIP system is probably going to be its impact on newer players to the game, who generally have inventory and storage issues when starting. Many new players in Gorgon are quickly forced to learn inventory management as their inventory clogs quickly, and some of them can get frustrated at it. If VIP is presented as an option to alleviate this issue, then I worry that these players will see the game as p2w. Going back to the gold comparison, my minimum estimated gold value of 20k isn't impressive for a long term player, but 20k is a LOT to a beginner. Because of this I think the VIP system will almost certainly look like heavy p2w to players just starting out and I worry if it will affect how people perceive the game.

What is so bad about extra character slots and extra inventory slots in a non-pvp game? What sort of balance is meant to be uphold by not having that?

Just because a game is primarily PvE doesn't mean p2w isn't a thing. The biggest problem is mostly just the frustration that you might be having a lot more troubles playing just because you aren't paying money. Like for example if you're having inventory issues due to limited carrying space but each time you see the "Inventory full" message you're reminded that every VIP player wouldn't have your problem. This is what usually sells these sorts of things in the first place but it makes the game less fun. It's not about balance in that other people are "Beating" you for having VIP, it's about how they're playing a different game than you, it's easier, and they're being "rewarded" in the same way which cheapens your experience.
Just as a comparison, people who like PG feel pretty accomplished for hitting max level in all sorts of skills because it takes a lot of work and effort. If PG started selling max level boosts then this would feel like a punch in the gut to those people because even if they know they "Earned" their levels, everyone else wouldn't know whether they got their max level legitimately or if they just paid for it.

So what would my solution be? Make the game free to play up to level 10 or 20. Kinda like how the demo is now. Then add a monthly subscription that everyone must have to play the game beyond that point.

I hope you're not suggesting that the devs take away the game we already paid full price for and make us pay a monthly sub to continue playing it.

[Mbaums]

Selling inventory slots and character slots is a perfect example of creating a problem and selling the solution. The devs are actively capping your inventory in the hopes you will feel like you don't have enough space and will be enticed to buy VIP.

The devs could add 100 slots and players could fill them and then ask for more. If they were removing slots from players then selling our old inventory slot count, you would have a point. But the game has been played and balanced for years around the current non-VIP inventory slot number and the inability to export text files.

And this is how this kind of system starts. If not enough people buy VIP they will have to start doing other things to entice you to buy it. XP boosts, currency boosts, log in rewards, and so on are examples of what they will eventually have to add if VIP isn't successful enough. There is no finding the right balance here. There is no right balance. You either don't need VIP and the system will be basically unused or you will feel like you need it for "convenience" and then it's just a matter of if you can afford it or not.

PG has technically had log in rewards for ages. Or more, log out rewards via hang-outs. The other fears you have about changes if the VIP isnt successful enough absolutely applies to games owned by private equity firms, but I don't think it applies here. The fears about if the VIP system failing is moot because, from what I've read, the dev team has been extraordinarily careful with the funds they've earned from backers and purchasers and they can continue to make PG at their current rate of development indefinitely. But I get that sounds a lot like marketing speak, ergo people will have a hard time believing that.

The solutions you offered, I think, would make the subscription a more significant change and would probably tank the community. Most players around level 35 are not invested in the game enough to sub.

And regarding the other posts about surveying to the impressively efficient person: One possible fix would be to remove the distance message from everyone's chat all together. Instead, make clicking the recipe open a window (like words of power) that has the distance in an auto-updating format. It would make doing 125 surveys harder for everyone, but it would be harder evenly.

[Drex]

The devs could add 100 slots and players could fill them and then ask for more. If they were removing slots from players then selling our old inventory slot count, you would have a point. But the game has been played and balanced for years around the current non-VIP inventory slot number and the inability to export text files.

The difference here is that they are adding the additional slots for money. Giving an advantage to players that can afford it. It might not be a big advantage, but it's still an advantage all the same. That's the main issue I have, adding systems to games that give players any level of advantage by making them pay for it with real money. Now if there were say, a way to pay for those extra slots with in game money, but VIP gives them for free, that would at least be a little better, and technically I guess that could be possible if players are able to trade the VIP tokens. But it sounds like the tokens are going to be pretty rare and as such will be super expensive to buy most likely. So only the top players will be able to afford them while new players or casuals probably will never be able to, so they have to open their wallets.

PG has technically had log in rewards for ages. Or more, log out rewards via hang-outs. The other fears you have about changes if the VIP isnt successful enough absolutely applies to games owned by private equity firms, but I don't think it applies here. The fears about if the VIP system failing is moot because, from what I've read, the dev team has been extraordinarily careful with the funds they've earned from backers and purchasers and they can continue to make PG at their current rate of development indefinitely. But I get that sounds a lot like marketing speak, ergo people will have a hard time believing that.

The hang outs are fine. You don't have to pay for them. Log in rewards on their own are fine, I don't care about them, but if they tie it to the VIP system, it'll be an issue. But that's hypothetical since they may never do that. The issue with the idea that they are fine with money is that they said themselves they are planning to hire a team now. That funding will be gone very quickly if they are hiring new devs to work on the game. There's no way the small amount of money they have received will be enough, thus why they announced hiring new devs at the same time as they announced the VIP system. The link is obvious there. The VIP system is there to hopefully fund the new devs. So what happens if people don't buy VIP? They fire the new devs? They keep them and make VIP more desirable? Both are very possible options here.

The solutions you offered, I think, would make the subscription a more significant change and would probably tank the community. Most players around level 35 are not invested in the game enough to sub.

I mean, depending on the sub price, I don't think it would tank the community that badly or at all. But that option is just the one I prefer. You could still have a VIP system that's cosmetic only too, but that has its flaws as well. There's no perfect system out there, but I do think that the current VIP idea isn't the best option. At least in my opinion.

I hope you're not suggesting that the devs take away the game we already paid full price for and make us pay a monthly sub to continue playing it.

I mean, it's not like that's not something that has never been done before. All older MMOs used that exact same model. New ones still do that with expansions all the time. It's really not that unrealistic of an expectation for a game that is constantly being updated with new content. Your initial purchase has gone way beyond what you initially bought by now depending on when you bought it.

Anyway, if that bothers you, they could easily add some sort of reward for early adopters of the game that paid the price. Many other MMOs have done this in the past. Just give players something equal to the price of the game. They could give X months of game time for example.

Or they could just make it so players that bought the game have access to the full current game but any future content will be locked behind the subscription.

Or if they just went with a cosmetic only subscription method, that would be fine too. It's when people start to get an advantage for a subscription that I start to have an issue.