Discussion - Crafting Caravan: September 25, 2020

[mrwarp]

Event notes are here: https://forum.projectgorgon.com/show...tember-25-2020

Event discussion and feedback go here!

[Yaffy]

I appreciate the ability to try and implement a way to raise the level of a lower level item, but isn't it really extreme to outright consider it a scam and therefore a punishable offense to try and trade it?
Someone with no ill-intention is inevitably going to try and trade one of the items if a system like this is kept long enough. They could forget that it's breaking a rule to trade the item, or not know it's a problem in the first place. Someone could forget that the item they're trading is one of these forbidden items in the far future, etc.

Something that can easily happen by accident with no ill-will should not be considered a punishable offense, and instead needs to be addressed by the developers so it can't happen by accident if it's a problem. Unless if the items are being kept tradable just so people can do "Illegal" trades for the sake of testing, the items should be attuned to the person who made it and there definitely shouldn't be a punishment for trying to trade the item. Bans for trading a tradable item sounds not only unfair, but will almost certainly harm a lot of innocent people.

[mrwarp]

One thing I left out of the event notes:
When you barter for the Amulet or Shoes, you are guaranteed an Epic (purple) rarity item with a very very small chance for a Legendary (yellow) item.

[Citan]

Changed the wording to prevent people worrying about being banned over it. Obviously it's a less-than-ideal situation where the tech doesn't match up with our needs yet. But that happens sometimes during development. So we're asking people who barter for higher-tier versions of old items to not sell or trade them. Please gift them to an NPC or destroy them for materials if you don't want them.

[Ranperre]

Not to be that guy but... is refunding a properly skilled purple with the hopes of getting a yellow considered abusing the system?

[corelion]

Really MAD atm with the upgrade item system.

First, the NPC ask you for the item, then the item gets DESTROYED without any warning. Then the NPC ask for more items!!!!! You don't have the tokens? Tough luck boy!
I felt scam by this. I lost a golden windstep boots that were perfect for my build and now I'm left with nothing.
The npc NEVER warn you you will need more tokens or it will destroy your items.
PLUS! by the comments about i understand the rarity doesnt get saved.. so i lost a yellow item.

THIS IS NOT AN UPGRADE SYSTEM. Is a gamble one. If i don't get a better item, IS NOT an upgrade. If i get not ITEM its NOT an upgrade.

Lost all my desire to participate longer in this event.

[Ranperre]

So uh... maybe just get black ink.

First:



Second (refund):

[Tandiril]

Wanted to also put my 2 cents here. Some of it you can also find in an ingame suggestion

Overall I like the idea. There are some items out there where it is really shame that you cannot get a higher level version of them.
I also know that this is an experiment, so not too much nagging over wording and so on, rather the major yays and nays.

1) Quality
Let's start with the biggest pain point

One thing I left out of the event notes:
When you barter for the Amulet or Shoes, you are guaranteed an Epic (purple) rarity item with a very very small chance for a Legendary (yellow) item.

Honestly this really should have been in the notes. I handed in my golden wind step shoes and got purples for them. As others have pointed out, you really cannot consider it an upgrade if you lose a mod in the process. This REALLY needs to change, and the quality needs to stay the same. After all, the unique effects of these items are usually somewhere around the worth of one mod, which puts them on par with max enchanted crafted gear but with some uniqueness due to the item you chose. Example comes later on

The bartering system is probably not the best solution to handle such a type of transaction. One way to use it could be to return a red/purple/golden token to the player depending on the sacrificed item, and then to implement a distinct barter for each quality (= x3 the barter options). Not elegant, but managable. Or you cut red quality from the list (honestly min 30 tokens for red boots, who would do that?), or red also gives you purple quality,. etc. Something along those lines.

Or you simply don't call it upgrade, and declare that it is simply another rng mechanic. Like "bring me an item according to my craft. For some tokens I will create something similar, but more advanced! Beware though, even for a master like myself, creating something with same or exceeding quality cannot be guaranteed". Not a big fan of this approach, but if you do it like that, you should probably reconsider the token requirement. 40 tokens for a roll, no thx

2) Base stats
Another issue arises when you consider some base enhancements, especially for Windstep shoes this seems important.
I understand that the special effects like sprint speed, inventory size, damage type conversion, and stuff like this stays the same. After all, that is probably why you picked the item in the first place (however sprint speed and inventory size are debatable, in fact everything that doesn't have a discret effect is). However, armor and combat refresh values might need updating, after all they are usually related to the level range, which we increase here.

3)
Now let's take a look at these 2 points in an example, to make the issues clearer. If I go for upgraded windstep shoes, I will very likely end up with a puple item =
4 mods, with 25 max armor, 30 health combat refresh, 27 armor combat refresh, clothing.

To get this far, I needed windstep shoes of sufficient quality (= a trip to winter nexus), and 40 tokens for level 80. With augmentation, I can increase the number of mods to 5, and the windstep effect gives me +2 sprint speed. So to sum up ->

windstep: 5 mods, 25 armor, +2 sprint speed, 30 health combat refresh, 27 armor combat refresh

To get 40 tokens, I needed a lot of quests, so either many caravans with a few skills, or a caravan where I do quests of many skills. I can do this only every 4 months for one weekend

Alternatively, I could simply rely on tailoring and other stuff I need for max enchanting. A sensible thing to do would either to craft astounding nimble shoes or regular astounding slippers, max enchanted. After enough investement (comparable to 40 tokens I guess, but fewer skills involved) I get golden ones, which means 6 mods. Now I use my enhancement points to apply a shamanic deer infusion, resulting in

regular: 6 mods, +1.5 sprint speed, 72 armor, -7% taunt, 48 health combat refresh, 42 armor combat refresh
nimble: 6 mods, +1.5 sprint speed, 37 armor, burst evasion every 12s, 48 health combat refresh, 42 armor combat refresh

I can do this whenever I want, they have one mod more, and better base stats. The only advantage I have rn is +0.5 sprint speed, hardly justifyable from a number perspective. So there are only a few "reasons" why I would like to go through this.

a) I am not proficient enough in tailoring/other skill I need or lack materials for that specific craft. Nor do I have the councils and/or trusted crafters to pay somebody to do it for me. Over the course of 4 months however, I would say that problem is usually solvable, with councils if with nothing else.
b) I have an emotional bond with my shoes.
c) My shoes look really cool compared to the ugly crafted ones.
d) I actually want to stack the speed enhancement on top of the existing speed base stat.

Most of the time however, I will be better of with shoes I crafted myself. And considering that the event where I can upgrade my *dropped* shoes is the *crafting* caravan, this is maybe not ideal. If it were the "Dungeon Delvers Competition" weekend with no crafting involved, this discrepancy between upgraded and self made shoes would be at least understandable


Now I realise this is a lot of negative feedback, but what I want to state again: The general idea is cool, and just because there were some misshaps this time, don't stomp the idea. Improving things like the gaz fire sword or similar items in the future would be amazing and offer cool build options. And even having super sonic winddeer shoes has potential. So please reiterate on the idea, and bring us the Caravan Upgrade Service 2.0 or something similar at some point

Edit:
I realize that this is a very number-crunchy approach. For somebody who is in the middle leveling crafting skills via the caravan in the 40-60 range and simply ups their well beloved shoes as "bonus" (because at this point the xp is the actually valuable thing) it could be a nice and fun reward, and the mentioned points are probably less relevant. Quality loss would still be a downer though xD

[Deldaron]

I have been over the moon since I realized I could get lvl 80 windstep boots, got them last night and I'm very pleased! I do think this is correctly labeled an upgrade even if you lose a mod, you still get to carry lvl 80 mods on what used to be a lvl 50 item and it's absolutely fantastic.

I do like the idea of forcing an item in = item out - maybe it keeps the same skills/rarity/mods, but swap the mods 1:1 for the lvl x variety. I surely benefitted from the RNG as all I had in storage was from an old with skills set I don't use, but I can see it being disheartening if the RNG gives you a half generic. I also still have to re-roll one of the mods, but I'm elated to have them.

I had actually been thinking recently I would like to see some sort of item upgrade system exactly like this. There are some _really_ cool items in game that are only for a specific level range and I would love a method to bring them forward with you. Off the top of my head I can think of The Ratkin Pickaxe for interesting damage type changes, gaz sets, fire sword as Tandiril mentioned, thorns set (forget the name, scorpion?), and some things I just want for my build (the ring that increases electricity dmg). I would love to see this system expanded upon and I think making the items attuned seems reasonable. I also think this "upgrade and re-skill" could create a boon to the player gear market. Now I can comfortably buy amulet of the rugged travelers and windstep shoes regardless of what skills they have.

This I think raises an interesting question, should there be a re-skilling option generally? This introduces the idea for the first time, with some RNG, limited to two travel/utility items. I would LOVE to see this option expanded, maybe once per item with attunement? Even if it didn't come with the upgrade to a higher level tier I think having the ability to change an items skills would help players sell items - got a yellow zuke ring you don't need, but it's bound to your skills? Allowing someone to re-skill it would open up the players who you could sell it to. The downside I see here is suddenly everyone has a zuke ring and less people care to do gaz?

Also @Tandiril I want to respond to your point directly. I think you are underselling the value of "d) I actually want to stack the speed enhancement on top of the existing speed base stat." - if we're talking about "how can I use this upgrade system to get the best possible item for end game" you're right, you can't. The Astounding Nimble Boots are the best boots right now (unless they added some in Wintertide) and you can get those year round instead of just once a quarter, but I am someone who keeps a travel and a combat set on me. For players who like to optimize speed and leverage speed mods this is a HUGE boost. Historically using windstep shoes didn't seem worth it b/c I would have to downgrade my speed boost mods from my skills (fire/shield for me) and the only way I could use both lvl 80 mods and windsteps +2 speed would be to carry two travel boots, eat up a loadout and quick swap before/after casting my speed spells. As someone who didn't bother with that, this means I get +2 sprint speed to my travel form that I previously didn't have. It is definitely an expensive method of increasing speed, but since you can carry tokens over between events it is also incredibly do-able for anyone who wants it. I do like your suggestions about base stats increasing with level at least for combat refresh and the solution using tokens of different rarity so I will second those.

EDIT:
I wanted to bring in this post from last month as it is clearly related to the Crafting Caravan and I think @ProfessorCat put together an INCREDIBLY comprehensive list that shows how far this upgrade system could go https://forum.projectgorgon.com/show...ll=1#post18926

[Tandiril]

@Deldaron, maybe I am underselling it. Tbh, after writing all this, I was wondering what I would do with my windstep shoes now, and decided I would probably make use of d) and use it purely for travel. Same situation here with Fire Magic. But the point was (maybe that was the reason for the underselling): This is an incredibly specialized use, and if the system were only for people who a) actually care about such tiny optimizations and b) can actually afford it (40 tokens is no joke of a commitement to this game), is it really a good system? But that discussion would probably a very subjective one