Damage Calculation Formula & Why Deadlier Weapons are so Strong

[Delfofthebla]

The damage formula at this point has been changed to be simpler (A bit after this thread the damage formula went through many changes over the course of several patches). I haven't checked if it was changed yet again as of this patch but I would assume it hasn't since it's been like this for a while now.

The current basic damage formula (Assuming a monster has no resistances) is:
(Base damage + Flat damage) *Multipliers +(base damage * (base multiplier - 1))

So any sort of non base-multiplier to damage now stacks as a single number. For example, if you have two mods that give +30% damage to a fire skill, and 20% bonus fire damage, then it would all combine into a single 80% boost to damage. This means that damage stacking isn't as prominent now.

Combined with this, another change to the damage formula is that if a mob is weak to a damage type, it's multiplied AFTER normal multipliers, but before base multipliers. So for example, if you did the above on a monster with 50% weakness to fire, then it would boost your damage by 80% and then 50% (Resulting in a 170% boost). However, if the mob is strong against fire then it will be applied at the end of the formula, so if the monster had 50% resistance instead then your damage would be cut in half after all other boosts, or if they have 100% resistance then they would take 0 damage.

With that in mind, a formula that takes into account monster resists would look like this:
((Base damage + Flat damage) *Multipliers *Target's elemental weakness +(base damage * (base multiplier - 1))) * Target's elemental resistance

Or if you want to split the two
For monsters weak to the attack's element:
(Base damage + Flat damage) *Multipliers *Target's elemental weakness +(base damage * (base multiplier - 1))
For monsters strong to the attack's element:
((Base damage + Flat damage) *Multipliers +(base damage * (base multiplier - 1))) * Target's elemental resistance

One major change related to the damage formula is that skills that cause your target to become weaker to a damage type actually affect the target's resistances now. For example, if you have a mob with 100% poison resistance (Aka. Immunity) and you use a skill that lowers their resistance by 15%, then their immunity will become 85% damage resistance so you can now damage the mob. Previously this would just multiply your poison damage against the target by 15% and then the mob's immunity would reduce it to 0 damage. However some skills haven't been updated to work this way yet to my knowledge, for example Calefaction works the old way while Bruising Blow works the new way. I don't think there's any reason for this aside from them not being updated yet and it's not intentional.

DoT damage is fairly straight forward. It only gets affected by flat bonuses (That don't specify direct only) or elemental bonuses. So for example if you have a mod which boosts fire breath damage by 30%, it will ONLY boost the initial damage from fire breath, not the DoT portion. However if you have something that boosts overall fire damage (Ex. +5 Fire damage, +5% fire damage, +5% indirect damage) then that will affect each tick of the dot separately. If the property specifies direct damage, then it will not affect the DoT (As all DoT effects are indirect, not direct), so +5 direct fire damage would not apply to a DoT.

So for example a DoT damage formula would look like this:
(Damage per tick + Flat damage) * Multipliers * Target's elemental weakness * Target's elemental resistance * Number of ticks

So if you had a skill that did 5 poison damage per tick for 6 ticks, with +10 poison damage and a +75% boost to poison damage on a monster 50% weak to poison, then it would look like this:
(5 + 10) *1.75 * 1.5 * 1 * 6 = 236.25 (Yes the game keeps track of the .25)

And finally just as a disclaimer and an apology, this is just my knowledge of how the damage formula was about a patch ago. I haven't done any testing this patch, so I apologize if my information is out of date already (Which is totally possible because the developers are always changing stuff about the game and aren't always transparent about it). If you want to create a build based on the above formula I gave, I would highly suggest that you try to do some testing to confirm if it's still true or not.

This is great info, thanks!

So does this mean that all the weirdness with "conditional / external" damage is gone? Those values get rolled up into "Multipliers" and "flat damage"? Does this mean that 'vulnerability damage' properly scales now?

((Base damage + Flat damage) *Multipliers *Target's elemental weakness +(base damage * (base multiplier - 1))) * Target's elemental resistance

In this new formula, you mention "Base Multiplier" as part of the formula, but elsewhere in the post state that all multipliers are rolled into one. Is the "Base Multiplier" still separate for this part of the formula, or was this a copy paste error?

DoT damage is fairly straight forward. It only gets affected by flat bonuses (That don't specify direct only) or elemental bonuses.

Not even base damage increases?

[Yaffy]

This is great info, thanks!

So does this mean that all the weirdness with "conditional / external" damage is gone? Those values get rolled up into "Multipliers" and "flat damage"? Does this mean that 'vulnerability damage' properly scales now?

Yes, so all that weird stuff regarding conditional/external stuff is now added into one number, rather than being separated. This means there are only two major damage multipliers, the total boost to your skill's damage and if the monster is weak to the element of the attack. This also means that conditional flat damage such as bonus damage against vulnerable monsters counts as the initial flat damage bonus now, which makes those effects significantly more powerful since they get multiplied.

In this new formula, you mention "Base Multiplier" as part of the formula, but elsewhere in the post state that all multipliers are rolled into one. Is the "Base Multiplier" still separate for this part of the formula, or was this a copy paste error?

Sorry, I should clarify. "Base multipliers" are bonuses to just base damage (Ex.Sword Base damage +20%). It's true that this is a multiplier, so saying "All multipliers" is incorrect. What I really mean are all non-base percentage boosts to your damage are lumped into a single multiplier. Base damage is unaffected by anything else in the damage formula aside from the monster's resistance against the attack and the attacks' base damage now, so it's a separate damage boost as the formula says. No copy and paste error, just bad wording on my part.

Not even base damage increases?

Yes, all indirect damage including DoTs are not affected by base damage increases.

[Delfofthebla]

Yes, so all that weird stuff regarding conditional/external stuff is now added into one number, rather than being separated. This means there are only two major damage multipliers, the total boost to your skill's damage and if the monster is weak to the element of the attack. This also means that conditional flat damage such as bonus damage against vulnerable monsters counts as the initial flat damage bonus now, which makes those effects significantly more powerful since they get multiplied.



Sorry, I should clarify. "Base multipliers" are bonuses to just base damage (Ex.Sword Base damage +20%). It's true that this is a multiplier, so saying "All multipliers" is incorrect. What I really mean are all non-base percentage boosts to your damage are lumped into a single multiplier. Base damage is unaffected by anything else in the damage formula aside from the monster's resistance against the attack now, so it's a separate damage boost as the formula says. No copy and paste error, just bad wording on my part.



Yes, all indirect damage including DoTs are not affected by base damage increases.

Ok thanks.

[AgentBbrian]

Indirect Damage, what are Brambles and Molten Veins classified as?
Any thorns like ability really, is it Indirect damage they do?

[alleryn]

Indirect Damage, what are Brambles and Molten Veins classified as?
Any thorns like ability really, is it Indirect damage they do?

'Direct dmage' refers to any damge made directly by your attack. DoT's and Thorns effects (like Shiled's Fire Shield) are considered indirect damage.

If you hover over an ability, the damage listed as "Damage:x" is direct damage. Any other damage (e.g. proc damage listed at the bottom of the tooltip) is indirect.

[Delfofthebla]

I did some testing over the weekend to test and verify Yaffy's formula, and I came to one unfortunate conclusion: Nothing boosts DoT / Indirect damage unless it explicitly says so. Not even flat damage.

% Damage with ability? Nope.
+ damage with ability? Nope.
+ damage to your next attack? Nope.
+ flat damage to animal attacks (Bounceweed)? Nope.

I haven't checked Sharpen, but I can guess the answer.

Basically, DoTs don't scale for shit unless you get very specific treasure mods for them to do so. 'Fill with Bile' and '% increased indirect poison' were the only two sources of scaling I've found to actually increase the damage of my Poison DoT abilities. I have not tested the weakness / resistance mechanics just yet (as they are harder to verify), but I am hopeful that those actually work for DoTs.

[Yaffy]

I did some testing over the weekend to test and verify Yaffy's formula, and I came to one unfortunate conclusion: Nothing boosts DoT / Indirect damage unless it explicitly says so. Not even flat damage.

% Damage with ability? Nope.
+ damage with ability? Nope.
+ damage to your next attack? Nope.
+ flat damage to animal attacks (Bounceweed)? Nope.

I haven't checked Sharpen, but I can guess the answer.

Basically, DoTs don't scale for shit unless you get very specific treasure mods for them to do so. 'Fill with Bile' and '% increased indirect poison' were the only two sources of scaling I've found to actually increase the damage of my Poison DoT abilities. I have not tested the weakness / resistance mechanics just yet (as they are harder to verify), but I am hopeful that those actually work for DoTs.

None of those work because they either apply to the initial hit (Like with % damage with ability) or they apply to attacks, aka. Direct damage. That's how it's always been, since DoT ticks do not count as an attack.

What I meant by flat damage boosts were things that boost all your damage by a flat amount such as a boost to an element. For example, Fill with Bile works because it gives you additional poison damage, hence each tick of a poison DoT gets boosted. It does specify indirect on Fill with Bile, but anything that gives + elemental damage applies to DoTs, for example the + poison damage modifier on gloves will also boost DoT damage despite not specifying direct or indirect (It does both).

Also, DoTs are affected by elemental resists the same way as normal attacks.

[Delfofthebla]

None of those work because they either apply to the initial hit (Like with % damage with ability) or they apply to attacks, aka. Direct damage. That's how it's always been, since DoT ticks do not count as an attack.

What I meant by flat damage boosts were things that boost all your damage by a flat amount such as a boost to an element. For example, Fill with Bile works because it gives you additional poison damage, hence each tick of a poison DoT gets boosted. It does specify indirect on Fill with Bile, but anything that gives + elemental damage applies to DoTs, for example the + poison damage modifier on gloves will also boost DoT damage despite not specifying direct or indirect (It does both).

Also, DoTs are affected by elemental resists the same was as normal attacks.

I guess I had just hoped that flat damage to an attack that caused a dot would allow the dot to benefit from that boost as well. I don't even mean on a per tick level, just "20 attack damage" divided by the number of ticks would be enough for me. There is almost no 'double-dipping' apart from the elemental stuff (which is not exactly a common mod). Base damage increases do not scale the damage. There are no consumes that I can use to boost my DoT damage.

Couple this with the fact that direct damage is far superior to DoT damage in terms of practicality as well as raw numbers, I question whether or not I should even bother keeping these treasure mods on my gear.

[Yaffy]

I guess I had just hoped that flat damage to an attack that caused a dot would allow the dot to benefit from that boost as well. I don't even mean on a per tick level, just "20 attack damage" divided by the number of ticks would be enough for me. There is almost no 'double-dipping' apart from the elemental stuff (which is not exactly a common mod). Base damage increases do not scale the damage. There are no consumes that I can use to boost my DoT damage.

Couple this with the fact that direct damage is far superior to DoT damage in terms of practicality as well as raw numbers, I question whether or not I should even bother keeping these treasure mods on my gear.

DoTs can be pretty good for overall DPS, since things that scale DoT damage usually scale them quite a bit. Early game especially I find that DoTs can be quite powerful, as even getting one mod that adds a DoT to an attack can double its potential damage.
You're 100% right though about how direct damage is significantly more practical though once you get past a certain point, like around level 40-50 or so. Once you get good gear it's simply much easier to just nuke targets down and most fights won't last the 10-12 seconds required to get the most out of a DoT.

[AgentBbrian]

If you hover over an ability, the damage listed as "Damage:x" is direct damage. Any other damage (e.g. proc damage listed at the bottom of the tooltip) is indirect.

Ah righto.

SO the things listed as "Other Effects" = "Indirect Effects" ?