Tanking with Flat Mitigation vs Percentage Mitigation and Enemy Critical Hits

[Mbaums]

I'm not totally disagreeing with you or agreeing with you either, I think the "significantly worse" is just too strong of language for me. Solo mobs don't mean much for most people, but it's what you tested it on. I think most things in GK's basic hit lands for 200 on a nudist, so lets go with that number. On a single mod for UA (18% miti)'s plus mitigation equivalent would be 36 mitigation, which is really through the roof. Damage negate is usually an option though. Miti doesnt scale nearly as well, but there are more tricks to use. The bullet version:

1) the + # mitigation mods are treated too linearly, and I think we both agree on that.
2) negate damage as an effect make the +miti builds fall into balance. This could be something put more to the forefront for re-vamping some animal builds. This effect really makes large pulls comfortable.
3) (more from my other post) I don't want whatever change to essentially nullify the crit damage change.

[Yaffy]

I'm not totally disagreeing with you or agreeing with you either, I think the "significantly worse" is just too strong of language for me. Solo mobs don't mean much for most people, but it's what you tested it on. I think most things in GK's basic hit lands for 200 on a nudist, so lets go with that number. On a single mod for UA (18% miti)'s plus mitigation equivalent would be 36 mitigation, which is really through the roof. Damage negate is usually an option though. Miti doesnt scale nearly as well, but there are more tricks to use. The bullet version:

1) the + # mitigation mods are treated too linearly, and I think we both agree on that.
2) negate damage as an effect make the +miti builds fall into balance. This could be something put more to the forefront for re-vamping some animal builds. This effect really makes large pulls comfortable.
3) (more from my other post) I don't want whatever change to essentially nullify the crit damage change.

Relying on skills that negate damage can be fine, but that's assuming people are running staff or shield. If you're running something like Deer, which the devs seemed to intend to be able to tank, then you have nothing of the sort. That's why I'd like Deer to have an option of a skills or equipment mods that reduce damage by a percentage. If a "Tank build" has to resort to always using staff or shield to become completely invincible because they can't actually tank the damage, then that shows that building mitigation is extremely unhelpful on their build. I honestly believe Staff/shield is a perfect example of the flaws of building mitigation in PG, since you're almost entirely relying on cooldowns for mitigation rather than your actual build. I don't mind it being an option because relying on cooldowns can create an interesting tanking style, but if it's the only thing people ever think about when tanking is mentioned then something is wrong.

Also these proposed changes don't nullify the crit change, it's just giving certain tank builds a better way to deal with them. I get that the devs think that getting crit to death out in the middle of nowhere is funny, but when you can die from 80% life at the bottom of a dungeon then at the very least a dedicated tank player should be able to mitigate this somehow. After all a tank that isn't reliable isn't much of a tank at all.

[spider91301]

If a "Tank build" has to resort to always using staff or shield to become completely invincible because they can't actually tank the damage, then that shows that building mitigation is extremely unhelpful on their build. I honestly believe Staff/shield is a perfect example of the flaws of building mitigation in PG, since you're almost entirely relying on cooldowns for mitigation rather than your actual build. I don't mind it being an option because relying on cooldowns can create an interesting tanking style, but if it's the only thing people ever think about when tanking is mentioned then something is wrong.

Also these proposed changes don't nullify the crit change, it's just giving certain tank builds a better way to deal with them. I get that the devs think that getting crit to death out in the middle of nowhere is funny, but when you can die from 80% life at the bottom of a dungeon then at the very least a dedicated tank player should be able to mitigate this somehow. After all a tank that isn't reliable isn't much of a tank at all.

Couldn't have said it better myself

[HardRock]

What I do to mitigate the damage from the GK mobs, and this is what worked for me pre crit patch, and also works post crit patch is this.I use two debuff damage by -25% in the form of debilitating blow (Sword skill) and but I love you (Psyc skill). Then from there I use tell me about your mother which reduces the damage a flat 16 damage for 1 min and can be recast every 30. Mind you its rare that a mob last long enough to get it double cast on it. other than bosses. I would also like to point out that tell me about your mum can be double modded to reduce damage by a flat 32 every 30 seconds with a total time of 60. So you can double cast that on bosses to reduce their damage by a flat 64.

Now obviously this is 1vs1 and the technique does nothing to mitigate damage from mobs hitting you that you haven't debuffed. Even with crits though, I can still take 2 mobs at a time . Mez 1 mob , debuff other, work its health down with a mixture of attacks that either stun, or reduce rage as to not be critted by a rage attack. I can usually kill the one before the other comes out of mez and not take a rage attack.

I have 780 health, and roughly 537 armor while wearing my max enchant cloth with +inventory mods on the top and bottom.
Sometimes I will use poison resist pots and stone skin pots. but it isn't crucial, just nice.

Disables are the new form of damage mitigation. What doesn't attack cant hurt you. So that leaves us with stuns. mesmerize and fears and movement disables.

[cr00cy]

I think it's not really posisble to make falt mitigation as good as % in late game, simply due the balance issues. Like it was already mentioned - if we could stack enough flat mitigation for it to matter vs bosses, it would be op vs normal mobs.

I think best(only?) way to make flat mitigation revelant in late/end game is to make it work well with % based mitigation. Right now, flat is calcualted before %, therefore makign stackign both types pointless. If ti woudl be switche daorund, so flat is calculated after %, it would made it more revelant.

Other options that could work:

- Aoe %dmg debuffs - I know we have few St dmg debuffs, but I don't think there is any AoE.

- Make some mobs attack at faster rate, but deal less damage per hit.

[ErDrick]

My question is, what skill besides unarmed can give you a meaningful amount of percent based mitigation? There may be an animal version I'm forgetting but that's still kind of besides the point because :

What If you don't want to use unarmed to tank? Also what will you do when Citan realizes how overpowered the unarmed mods are compared to regular "tanking" skills? ( I am 99.9999% sure unarmed was never meant to be the "tank" skill in this game.)

In the thread I basically hijacked for a few days discussing group combat( quite a while ago), I didn't really talk about or include unarmed mitigation because I honestly assumed it would have been nerfed by this point already. Combat that is balanced around that much % mitigation isn't really balanced at all...Unless that list is hugely expanded to include stuff like ...I dunno, how about shield...you know, the one skill it would actually make sense for.

As far as mob criticals I don't know what he was thinking, combat was already way to fast and furious for a tab-target game prior to that. One of my biggest complaints with combat in PG is that it is approaching action-combat scales of damage, but this isn't an action combat game....being 1 shotted is only acceptable when a player can actually dodge that with skill reliably. My 2nd biggest gripe is still the forced dps checks of how mobs respawn in groups....But it doesn't feel like they have any intention of reverting that which is mainly why I haven't been around. The only other complaint I have is that the same rules that apply to players do not apply to mobs( forced immunity to effects for 60 secs after being hit with one, chain stuns etc).....can players now crit with any skill or is it still only mentalism/archery? cause that's another example if not.

I hate to say anything bad about this game because I love Citan( and srand) and I also love most of his ideas...and when new actual content is added I'll most likely be around for a bit again( I'd still be around now though if the combat was engaging and enjoyable). Because ignoring the few things I have grown to dislike about combat, the game has a ton of potential still...it's also why I still check the forums at least once a week.

It's just.... I ask myself why they would use those systems in my head and the only reply I get back is "because fuck you, that's why"...That's not to say that's their actual reasoning...it's just all I can come up with for it unless they actually explain it.

It's not as if the combat is so brutal that i can't handle it, I for sure can ...but it's not much fun for me. I like a challenge, but there is a difference between that and it being totally out of your hands with the random-number-generator. Critcal mob hits do the same thing as evasion did, take things out of our hands and turn it into random stuff that's almost unavoidable. And as I said above I still feel as if the combat got way too fast paced before even including criticals to the mix.

I should also clarify that i mean combat balanced for groups, solo content ( outdoors) has always been fine in my opinion.

Side question: can bears rage attack critical? because lol if it can.

[cr00cy]

Side question: can bears rage attack critical? because lol if it can.

I don't think so. From what I understand Bears rage attack removes certain amount of your Hp, rather than dealing typicla damge. So it shouldn't be bae to crit - well, at least i wasn't critted by one yet.

[Mbaums]

As far as mob criticals I don't know what he was thinking, combat was already way to fast and furious for a tab-target game prior to that. One of my biggest complaints with combat in PG is that it is approaching action-combat scales of damage, but this isn't an action combat game....being 1 shotted is only acceptable when a player can actually dodge that with skill reliably. My 2nd biggest gripe is still the forced dps checks of how mobs respawn in groups....But it doesn't feel like they have any intention of reverting that which is mainly why I haven't been around. The only other complaint I have is that the same rules that apply to players do not apply to mobs( forced immunity to effects for 60 secs after being hit with one, chain stuns etc).....can players now crit with any skill or is it still only mentalism/archery? cause that's another example if not.

Being 1 shot from a non-rage attacks is probably impossible. Rage attacks are a different story. The infiltrators in GK (archer elites) from a range get really close to 1 shotting though. The crit change, I think, slowed down the size of pulls in GK, but made it so that healers are less important because people would rather stack up on DPS as much as possible. I need to test death prevent more, but I'm 80% sure it's triggered purely based on HP, after % mitigation but before armor and +mitigation. So, after vulnerability, which is what we & every mod should have been calling it this time, but before +mitigation. But like I said, un-finished theory here, but something so important animal tanks should have access to it via gear (taunt mod buff?).

Respawn continues to be baffling. How people expect it to work: EQ-style, you kill a mob, it respawns X mins after it's death. How I think it works: Each zone has a number of "no-spawn" slots that must move around, this is likely to prevent people from farming a specific area in an open world. IE, tons of bears in a zone and you keep on killing them? less total bears in that area, making farming not worth it as eventually the max number of bears will drop as the 'empty spawn' moves there leaving a thicker spawn somewhere else. Another way to think of it, NPC dies and he/she gets reincarnated somewhere else in the zone.

In GK my method of dealing with it is be wary of empty halls, welcome weird pull spots with pathers strolling in and never stay in 1 place very long. Any strategy hardly matters because I've pulled stuff then seconds after it dies new mobs respawn on that very spot. Maybe more of a "cool down" on a recently emptied spot would be helpful. Or if the "empty spots" we're put into quarter percentiles by last-clear, and everything in the oldest quarter had to be filled before the newer ones. Some randomness but a little more control. If this is ever changed, I really expect it'll only exist as a silent change never put in the notes.

And I will admit most NPC rules do actually apply to players. More players getting AOE'd = less damage from the NPC AOE. Animal handling has a relatively bad reputation but the pets do crit and it does make a difference. I can live without all player crits, because of the DPS singularity. But it would be nice if players had some level of stun-immunity after being chain-stunned because if you are being hit by chain-stuns/knock downs, you have a lot of incoming damage to worry about. Boom, suggested, equality between NPCs and players.

[Aionlasting]

My question is, what skill besides unarmed can give you a meaningful amount of percent based mitigation? There may be an animal version I'm forgetting but that's still kind of besides the point because :

What If you don't want to use unarmed to tank? Also what will you do when Citan realizes how overpowered the unarmed mods are compared to regular "tanking" skills? ( I am 99.9999% sure unarmed was never meant to be the "tank" skill in this game.)

In the thread I basically hijacked for a few days discussing group combat( quite a while ago), I didn't really talk about or include unarmed mitigation because I honestly assumed it would have been nerfed by this point already. Combat that is balanced around that much % mitigation isn't really balanced at all...Unless that list is hugely expanded to include stuff like ...I dunno, how about shield...you know, the one skill it would actually make sense for.

As far as mob criticals I don't know what he was thinking, combat was already way to fast and furious for a tab-target game prior to that. One of my biggest complaints with combat in PG is that it is approaching action-combat scales of damage, but this isn't an action combat game....being 1 shotted is only acceptable when a player can actually dodge that with skill reliably. My 2nd biggest gripe is still the forced dps checks of how mobs respawn in groups....But it doesn't feel like they have any intention of reverting that which is mainly why I haven't been around. The only other complaint I have is that the same rules that apply to players do not apply to mobs( forced immunity to effects for 60 secs after being hit with one, chain stuns etc).....can players now crit with any skill or is it still only mentalism/archery? cause that's another example if not.

I hate to say anything bad about this game because I love Citan( and srand) and I also love most of his ideas...and when new actual content is added I'll most likely be around for a bit again( I'd still be around now though if the combat was engaging and enjoyable). Because ignoring the few things I have grown to dislike about combat, the game has a ton of potential still...it's also why I still check the forums at least once a week.

It's just.... I ask myself why they would use those systems in my head and the only reply I get back is "because fuck you, that's why"...That's not to say that's their actual reasoning...it's just all I can come up with for it unless they actually explain it.

It's not as if the combat is so brutal that i can't handle it, I for sure can ...but it's not much fun for me. I like a challenge, but there is a difference between that and it being totally out of your hands with the random-number-generator. Critcal mob hits do the same thing as evasion did, take things out of our hands and turn it into random stuff that's almost unavoidable. And as I said above I still feel as if the combat got way too fast paced before even including criticals to the mix.

I should also clarify that i mean combat balanced for groups, solo content ( outdoors) has always been fine in my opinion.

Side question: can bears rage attack critical? because lol if it can.

Good post friend.

I think the problem is trying to get group play right and solo play right.

Right now the game relies on random mechanics to create artificial difficulty. Like you pointed out, this is no fun. It removes the control the player should have and puts them at the mercy of randomness (i.e. tank being one shotted). Like you also said, one shot mechanics or close to them, should be limited to abilities the player is warned of and has the opportunity to avoid.

The ideal solution, in my mind to fix this problem, is to reward player preparation. Currently group content and all combat is based on most damage as quickly as possible. This is because combat in this game , especially group combat, does not force players to prepare. For example, group mobs differ only from solo mobs in their HP pool. They have no other intrinsic properties that set them apart from their solo counterparts, so what is the end result? Bring more DPS.

I assume, in order to fix this problem, citan implemented crit damage. Force players to have tanks. The problem is there is no way to mitigate crit damage reliably and the damage is so severe even tanks are killed in one attack.

The solution would seem, not to introduce a random system that players cannot predict and avoid reliably, but rather, to create distinction between group mobs and solo mobs that is consistant across the board and that players can reliably prepare for and counter through proper group composition.

For example, if group mobs had evasion , and solo mobs didn't, but a player class existed that removed evasion through some debuff, this would force groups to bring that support class along to counter the group mobs buff and allow the group to kill it.

Another example would be to increase group mob armor far above that of solo mobs so that reliable damage on group mobs would require a support class that could break a % of that armor off allowing reliable damage to occur.

Remove critical damage which is random and give group mobs a higher base damage than solo mobs but one that doesn't fluctuate so that tanks are required but the damage is predictable. Maybe make group mobs have a much faster attack speed but give a player class the ability to decrease monster attack speed so that this support class is valuable and coveted by groups. Etc...

These are some changes that force groups to bring healers, to bring unique support classes, to bring tanks, etc... without the frustrating random elements such as critical damage.


Tldr; Remove random unavoidable attributes from all monsters and create attributes that make group mobs distinct from solo mobs eliminating the desire to bring more and more dps and thereby forcing groups to prepare accordingly through more appropriate group compositions.

[Yaffy]

While I like the idea of rewarding preparation, I don't agree with some of the examples you've given. Players being "Forced" to bring a certain class to counter specific mobs is something I dislike heavily in MMORPGs because it's just a gimmicky way to force a certain class into every party, usually because no one would bring it otherwise or it becomes incredibly powerful. There are actually a few enemies in game which are close to this, such as the Beholders at the bottom of Gazluk which require a Druid to Rotskin them, but Rotskin just cuts their defense in half, rather than being impossible/extremely difficult to destroy without it.

Using your example of evasion mobs, I believe a better way of rewarding preparation would be to reward players for getting accuracy instead of bringing a certain class, because there are a lot more ways to go about it. For example players could build accuracy on their gear, bring accuracy boosting items, use skills which have an accuracy bonus or maybe a dedicated support could boost everyone's accuracy/lower the enemy's evasion. This makes players have to prepare, but gives players options rather than forcing them lug over a player of a specific class. You could make it so one skill is particularly good at buffing the party's accuracy and that's great, but it shouldn't ever be the only option.
I believe this may be the intended mechanic of Dark Chapel... but currently the calculation for hit chance is bugged and it's pointless to build accuracy on your character to counteract the evasion mobs have there. Any evasion a mob gains through a buff/player debuff cannot be mitigated with accuracy, and every mob in Dark Chapel gets its evasion this way.

Also I do disagree about tanks being unhelpful. Even before the crit change tanks could make going through dungeons significantly faster, and even with crits a proper tank can shrug off crits. The issue is just that what falls under "a proper tank" is extremely limited due to percentage based mitigation being so limited in the game hence why I made this thread in the first place.