Update Discussion: May 25, 2018

[Aionlasting]

Excellent feedback Erdrick! Great job.

[Yaffy]

@ErDrick I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you said and you do point out some big problems, but some things I would disagree with. I feel like we have very different perspectives about issues since I'd call myself a tank, and it's interesting to get your view point.

- AoE Changes
I would disagree that AoE isn't very helpful outside of farming/grinding or forced situations, as I feel like there are many times where you can try to speed things up in dungeon runs or such by pulling more than one mob if you know you can handle it, or maybe just pulling a couple of mobs while leveling since you know you can handle two mobs. I definitely agree that the game has situations which forces you to fight many enemies at once, which is fine, but I do think the AoE nerf should be slightly changed because more mobs actually start to make AoE worse than just single target which feels really backwards.

-Archery Changes
I'm not an archery main, but I agree. Archery's damage has honestly never seemed that great, and I feel like this nerf is mostly a result of people spreading around the idea that Archery is super strong or something. I never understood it, but for the longest time I keep hearing people talk about how strong Archery is when in reality it doesn't seem OP or anything. I think this archery nerf is just a case of the skill being popular rather than actually being strong which I don't think is fair. However, if everything is going to have its damage lowered the same way like it's been hinted at, then I guess archery was just hit with the nerf first and it'll balance itself out later.

-DoT
I do think DoT's are a bit on the weak side, but they show a lot of potential! I think that a Knife fighting DoT based build could easily have the best DPS over a long period of time, but enemies dying too quickly does kind of put a hamper on it. It's hard to use in a group scenario, but if you pull more mobs then DoT's do get a bit better, especially after the AoE changes.

-Rage reduction
Yes I agree, rage reduction skills can't keep up with a full party. That doesn't mean they're useless though, as I have seen some players with strong rage reduction and good timing lower the enemy's rage just as they're using their rage attack, which cancels it. When a player can do this with bosses it's excellent... but it's quite hard to do (Especially with any kind of lag) and I do think the system could be a bit better.

-Heals
Now this one I do disagree with. I think healing can be very helpful! Healing can be a huge life saver in dungeons and a good healer can make a dungeon go much smoother! Not only that, but having even just a semi-decent healer around can make a dungeon run much faster by removing down time if the puller can constantly pull. I think one big thing to note though is that typically single target heals are very ineffective at lengthening's one's life span unless if they're very tanky. A heal on a strong tank could keep them alive for another 20 seconds, but could only keep a DPS alive for another 3. Another thing to note is that heals in this game are limited by cooldown rather than mana/healing rate like in other games, so even though you might not think an extra 3 seconds is much, it could let other heals come off cooldown and end up turning into another 10 seconds of extra life or even an infinite loop quite easily.

-Crowd Control
Some crowd control, like Ice Magic's AoE Roots, are incredibly strong in group play. In fact I would say it's OP because as a tank, you can taunt a rooted enemy and then just back away which essentially reduces that mob's damage to 0! Mez on the other hand, is in a weird spot. A well coordinated mez where you know none of your team mates will break it is extremely useful, but trying to use it in the middle of a fight or without communication is basically impossible. I don't think Mez should be unbreakable for 5 seconds, as that would just turn it into a 5 second stun which is ridiculously strong, but some brief period of unbreakability like 2 seconds would be enough for players to realize they should switch targets. Either that or mezzed targets should take less damage.

-Incoming damage/Tanking/Clear Speed
Now this is a big topic, especially as a player who looks at tank builds all the time. Damage from mobs IS high, especially when elites from Gazluk Keep seem to do just as much damage as bosses. The thing is that the answer to surviving against these enemies isn't more health or armor, it's getting more mitigation (Although armor kind of counts for that). Additional health is just an extra buffer before you die, and armor is the same although it gives you a little bit of direct mitigation for the start of the fight. More mitigation not only increases your survivability, but it also makes things like heals much better because heals are based on flat amounts (A 200hp heal basically acts like 400hp if you negate half damage).
The issue I find though is that there's two kinds of mitigation, flat and percentage. Now flat is good when fighting weaker things because it can reduce damage to 0, but against big mobs like Gazluk ones it's extremely ineffective because mobs do so much damage! A skill stacking all the flat mitigation mods on it typically gets around 30-50 flat mitigation, which isn't enough to be noticeable with the 200-300 damage hits you take at Gazluk, and most flat mitigation is only for a few damage types too! This means unless you have a huge amount AND you have a support character helping you (Ex. A battle chem with thick skin giving you more) it's not going to reduce damage by much. On the other hand, percentage based mitigation is excellent in Gazluk keep, because it reduces a ton of damage due to the high amount of damage. Just using the 20% fire resist meditation reduces the damage you take from Elite Troopers by a huge amount, more than any non-fire magic build could even get close to with flat mitigation. This is also why unarmed tanking is so effective, because it works with percentages, not flat amounts.
My suggestion to the devs would be to improve how flat damage reduction mods scale (Surely 6 physical mitigation on a mod isn't enough at level 70! with mobs hitting for 200!) and consider adding more percentage based mitigation options. I do know there's the worry of making a character with so much flat mitigation they become invincible, but if every tank could get a bit of good flat mitigation and good percentage based then they would be a lot stronger without the worry of being invincible due to how the mitigation formula works (Flat first, then %). Also maybe some % elemental resist on gear pieces would be nice.

I feel like we have very different opinions on tanking in general, as I would argue tanking is very helpful and a big reason why dungeon runs can go much faster. A competent tank can make a dungeon run go much faster than adding more damage, because they can pull more mobs more reliably and with less downtime. I've had some great Gazluk Keep runs where I've reached Beakhorse by the time the first room repopped, so the respawn timer isn't nearly as harsh as you seem to make it out to be (If you have a good tank). I do think the repop mechanic is pretty dumb though so I agree with you with that. AoE taunts are helpful (Although I wish there were more!), and players can definitely pull more than just one mob at a time consistently! This makes AoE builds better, sustained DPS builds better (Like DoT builds) and healers better, and it's all faster too! I think Citan should give more love to weaker tank skills, but at the very least I believe players should get into the habit of trying to pull two or three mobs at once if they want to call themselves a "Tank" and to avoid downtime between pulls.

I do think the taunt skills need more love in the game's current state, as I find that it's very difficult to pull aggro from higher DPS players without investing very heavily into taunt bonuses, and I believe many taunt skills simply can't keep up. This is probably a result of damage being higher than Citan expected, and if damage is getting lowered over time it will make taunting easier, but I do agree that some skills need to have their taunt bonuses boosted. However, I would highly disagree with your suggestion to remove % based taunt bonuses, as it's those exact bonuses that make holding aggro much easier with some builds than others! The thing about % based taunt bonuses is that they also multiply flat taunt, which is what makes shield so helpful for taunting things when you combine take the lead with something that applies flat taunt. I think that other tank skills either need much more flat taunt, or their own little % based bonuses. Something like Deer can only taunt for around 2500 while something combined with take the lead's % bonus can potentially taunt for over 12k even before damage!

-Reducing mob damage and buffing health
Now this is a really huge change, and while I'm interested in it, I don't think mob damage should be halved currently, not with how mitigation works currently. If you were to halve damage, it would be very easy to reduce damage to near 0 so you could live forever with some cantrip healing or a dedicated healer. Now if this big change also makes the game more interesting, then sure! But halving damage right now isn't a good idea if you ask me. You'd need to make a lot of other changes before a change that big.

-Respawns
I totally agree. Respawns in dungeons are pretty ridiculous and unforgiving! Although I think the timer is a lot more lenient than you think, but that also depends on the area and what your plans are. Backtracking through an already cleared area is so risky because of the sudden repop, and some areas like in Labyrinth make it very risky to go through the side branches because you risk wasting too much time. I think things respawning a few at a time would be a nice change (Enough so a good party could handle it, but a single player can't farm). It would also be nice if there was some kind of warning too so it wasn't so sudden, like if respawning mobs wouldn't aggro onto players for 5-10 seconds on respawn (But would attack if you started attacking them). That would give you some time to run away at least.

Sorry for the huge wall of text, but a wall of text must be answered with another! I do like some of your suggestions, but I do disagree with some of the ideas you have as well. Your post has given me a new perspective to view dungeon running which is quite interesting and I thank you for that! Please let me know what you think of what I said!

[ArkadyRandom]

Tanks should have to invest in taunt bonuses. Well geared DPS players need to dial it back.

The problem I see in some of the thinking is that it disregards group interaction. DPS should be aware of their threat, pulling aggro, and breaking CC.

People want to burn through dungeons, but group content should be challenging beyond mobs having bigger health and more damage. The complaints about taunts not overpowering well geared DPS tells me people expect skills to do their job in a vacuum. Group play doesn't exist in a vacuum but we're discussing skill tuning and group balance like they do. People are okay with the nerfs as long as they can find some other way to burn through stuff as fast. That's not how it should be.

I agree mez breaking should be shorter. LotRO, as an example of a CC heavy game, has short safety timers on mez and root that are about 2 seconds. It's enough to allow for an "auto attack" or bad timing for an attack that hits when the mez does, but not so long as it ends up being a stun + mez combo like Yaffy pointed out. CC and debuffs should be required overall or every encounter will always be a dps race.

With regards to high levels being driven to low level zones. If that happens then there should be a drop nerf to prevent farming trivial con mobs. I hate that solution because it stratifies content and contributes to zone abandonment. But if high level characters are going to exploit level mechanics for easy farming then that is necessary. Gray con mobs shouldn't drop items. Those items should be found on appropriately conned enemies.

[Aionlasting]

Perhaps there should be a threat meter for dps to keep an eye on to know when they are pulling too close to the tanks current threat. Perhaps the party interface should also have a way to set a player as a tank so everyone else can know who the tank is and follow behind, and also track on the threat meter where the tanks current threat is and play accordingly..... there are many improvements both in gameplay, mechanics, and user interface that could go a long way into making group content much more enjoyable.

[srand]

Rather than starting a new discussion thread for today's bug-fixing hotfix, we're just going to add to this ongoing discussion thread. The hotfix notes are here: https://forum.projectgorgon.com/show...es-May-27-2018

[HardRock]

There is a glaring issue that is very abusable, as I have been demonstrating for a few days now. When in Gazluk Keep I can body-pull mobs and before they close the distance to engage me, I run into another room that has a wall nook with a thin section of wall. While the mob/mobs are still on the other side of the wall, they will think that they can attack me because the thin section of the wall puts us close enough. What this does is allows me to hold the mob in place while the script tries to melee attack me, but is interrupted by the wall being there. I can hold multiple mobs this way and while in a doorway scenario the abuse gets worse, as the AI can't go through the doorway more than 2 at a time.

Currently In a nearly fully augmented all yellow gk suit I can solo two mobs at a time. I mez one with "tell me about your mother". Then kill the other before the mez is up. If I do it all properly I can break the mez on the first one with my stun mod from tell me I love you.

If you play BennyHill music and I can eat great bacon while running around crazy I can sometimes take 3 elite gk mobs. IF I do everything right. This includes circling, charging and backing off at the right times.

[ErDrick]

@Yaffy You taking the time to reply with that wall of text is appreciated and your points are valid. You are probably the strongest tank I have seen in a long time so your tanking insight is especially helpful.

Few things I would like to add:

Mesmerizes wouldn't be a 5 second stun because mobs would be immune to damage for those 5 seconds ( I should have been more clear in my wording there).

As for tanking / damage / clear speed...well that's all subjective, if I roll in there with a full group of people that already have level 70 legendary /optimized/ augmented gears and know wtf they are doing ...yea beating repops is a lot easier. The problem is that excludes anyone that doesn't meet those criteria if you want to have fun and not suddenly die over and over to repops. I mean I have been in groups where we absolutely destroy the whole place, but I also have been in there many times with people that just got to 70 and are wearing 50-60 gear...and it can be hell. The content isn't supposed to be intended for people that are effectively lvl 90 due to optimal gear, it is for 65-70ish people. Also you have to build extremely focused and with specific items and modifiers for specific skills to achieve those results, you are essentially "maxed out" ( or close to it) as a tank...Not just as a tank but as the uberest skill combo you can possibly be for it. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing, it's fun to put that much effort into something then see it work...it just isn't a good example from a balancing perspective. I'm having flashbacks of Citan telling me this exact same thing years ago when I was suggesting some balance changes, and he was right.

What you said about taunt modifiers and how they stack...that's also a good point, I cant think of another skill that can achieve those results though, only shield. Having only one skill be effective at a specific role is still a problem. A generic sidebar skill with a percent based taunt modifier might solve that for other skillsets though...something like a defensive/aggro stance ability.

Another thing to note is that if you are clearing to beakhorse before the first wave of repops your group is 100% 2 shotting the mobs to do it. And part of the reason for your extreme survivability and the reason heals seem effective, is because the mobs are dying before they can really put a dent in you, remember that the damage you take gets higher and higher once your armor depletes under normal circumstances.

I just find the current system boring. I have also noticed some threads where people complain that GK is a loot pinata, and that is absolutely true as long as you can 2shot mobs...it would be less true if fights were longer and harder.

You mention that lowering damage would make you invulnerable with the right kinds of mitigation, this is a good point that I hadn't considered, although I'm sure I would have if that change actually happened. You also have the best self-mitigation set up that I am aware of ( unarmed). I know when I put thick skin on you on top of that you are godlike.

It's still pretty boring to have to 2-shot every mob you come across, so that still needs to happen in some form, just with better numbers ( at least that's my opinion).

You have some great insights that are definitely food for thought. And I am glad you contributed, I can't think of every unforseen consequence by myself, this is exactly the kind of dialogue that is needed.

@ArkadyRandom What you mention about dps holding themselves in check is something I am very aware of, I played everquest for about 9 years. The problem here is holding yourself in check will still lead to a wipe when respawns happen. If combat were made slower and repops were singly ( like they were in everquest, and used to be here) you could accurately gauge how far ahead of the wave you were and use skills accordingly. Right now that's not really an option.

@srand from the patch notes you said "Previously, pets could attack monsters that were 'mezzed' if at least half the mezz duration had elapsed (the same time in which players can break the mezz). Now pets never directly attack mezzed or feared targets. Note that as a side effect, this means you cannot order your pet to attack a mezzed or feared enemy; pets now consider them "invalid targets"."

Currently you can break a mesmerize instantly, a 20 second duration mez does not have a 10 second window where it is unbreakable. And a pet would charge forward when you cast mesmerize and instantly break it, because it considers mesmerize an attack ( which it is, they do damage for some reason) and break it immediately. This obviously might work differently now ( for pets) but I'm not sure what you mean by the part about if half duration has elapsed ( in regards to players breaking them), because that isn't a thing.

[Niph]

The mezz change for pets seems to be working. This is a very nice fix.

The fact that we must learn low level recipes first is understandable. However, some of them are just too hard to get. For example, I've yet to meet anyone having found Flamestrike 1 or 2. As far as I can tell, they don't drop. They probably do of course, and eventually we will know what from, but invading low level dungeons where we high level players don't belong isn't very fun.

[Rhawkas]

Perhaps there should be a threat meter for dps to keep an eye on to know when they are pulling too close to the tanks current threat. Perhaps the party interface should also have a way to set a player as a tank so everyone else can know who the tank is and follow behind, and also track on the threat meter where the tanks current threat is and play accordingly..... there are many improvements both in gameplay, mechanics, and user interface that could go a long way into making group content much more enjoyable.

All the yes. FFXIV has threat meters listed under each player's name when in a group and it's a godsend not only for tanking, but for playing DPS too. In that game at least, it can be worth it to back off of an enemy if you're pulling aggro from the tank. Granted, PG needs more work on team roles all around.

[Silvonis]

As a general reminder, please report bugs, exploits, etc., using the in-game reporting tool. Additionally, if you find an issue and continue to exploit it - your account is subject to being banned. Please report players who are taking part in such activities. It is a Terms of Service violation to take advantage of unintended game functions. If you're unsure, please send in a detailed report regardless. As a general rule, if it seems 'too good to be true' then it probably is.