Volume I: Markets & Prices

[Arundel]

You know I just could not help but point out the following:

There are a lot of thinly veiled personal attacks in this thread, and I was under the assumption that we debated the quality of ideas/facts rather then the source.

I also noticed a lot of "Panthers are camped" logic coupled with "only a few players are capable of farming panthers"....this seems in opposition

And as a player who detours through panthers quite often I rarely see anyone there, and if we go by the chart its still profitable with several people farming it.

I know it seems moot because of the recent patch but my understanding was the change was temporary until a decision could be reached.

I'd agree it is fairly profitable for people to even split the area but with decent kill speed even one player soloing it who can do all the panthers in two pulls quickly will be waiting for respawn. With two it becomes a lot of sitting around - and this boredom is I'm sure what provokes some of the toxic behavior. A "good" grinding spot or source of income is completely relative to one's expectations though. When I first discovered panthers - actually I stumbled upon them in my second week of play, not even max level - I was thrilled to see so many melee enemies hanging out together - any veteran MMO player knows what that means in terms of xp and money. I made good money killing them solo or splitting the zone for some time and made some friends that way. But that value may not be good enough to be even close to "best". No general disagreement that they are good even with two - just in general it comes down to one's expectations and I believe most go to the zone hoping to have it to themselves which has become increasingly rare.

As far as thinly veiled personal attacks, it's common for people obsessed with panthers as many believe the panthers truly belong to them or they are the "best" source of money. Typical behavior in MMO's in my experience with players competing even over PvE content. If your comment was in reference to my most recent post - I have nothing further to say to the person who made that comment that provoked my response. In general, unprovoked responses (my post that he quoted was just about panthers in general, I would be just fine if they deleted that pack of mobs entirely) like this are just the kind of toxic behavior I am discussing. Just noting that you are correct that there are a lot of bitter comments any time panthers come up. I think all but one of my harassment tickets I sent in were due to panther drama/harassment by players verbally out there. I moved on from panthers other than as a fun way to get levels on occasion for an off spec.

As far as comments about "very few" being able to kill all the panthers quickly - I'd say nearly anyone I have seen out there can do that. The question is how quickly. When the venom would show up is when you would pull faster than another player out there (75%-100% of the zone in one pull is easy for a good cow build as you have damage immunity to panthers with the right mods and insane movement speed) and they would ask you to leave, if you didn't want to then the next thing was them trying to "tag" or "loot" (old bug) your mobs. It was always kind of funny to watch and produced probably the most toxic behavior I have seen in this game. The comments you mention in this thread are pretty much a result of such behavior. I haven't played in awhile so I wouldn't even know who to address with veiled attacks. Literally the only people I remember are guildmates. We all can agree that provocative posts such as that one are just the kind of toxic behavior that pollutes a good discussion.

I prefer an alternate zone where with proper vendoring I make more per hour. There is also zero competition in it so you can relax and be sure that no one is going to come out and start messing with you and when you refuse to leave begin name calling. THAT zone (and I'm sure there are a few other spots) was what I referenced when I implied "very few can solo it". Panthers could be soloed by anyone who knows how to properly kite. I think I was doing so at level 40 or 50 with fire/ice by tagging, freezing, and nuking. There are many variations of this strategy (BChemistry is fine too). Archery can probably solo it all in one pull with no second spec at level 20 (joke).

TLDR: Panthers good, troll/venom comments are bad, discussion good, panthers are easy.

[Arundel]

Regarding AE, and its impact on the reward of farming low level mobs vs. level appropriate mobs...

Assuming the issue with higher level mobs not being sufficiently rewarding for upgrade costs is addressed, why not add a variation on a trivial loot system instead to mitigate dominant low-level AE farming by grossly over-skilled players. Something of the nature where mob items (dropped loot) and corpses (harvestable loot) have an increasing chance to be forfeited when attacking with a spell or ability >N levels higher than the mob 'level'.

Arbitrary example follows:

Assume a herd of 'level 20' cows where each will have some associated loot table which governs what can possibly be dropped when killed. Additionally, its corpse can also be the target of 'autopsy' and harvested for its skin, skull or organs.

A player killing such cows with level 20/20 combat skill abilities, would have the full, normal chance of getting loot and harvestable items from them.

Another player killing such cows using one or more level 25 combat abilities might find that 1/3 of the corpses contain useless 'broken', 'burned', 'crushed' or 'shattered' loot (flavor-text variations based on skills used) instead off the normal loot items. Perhaps at this level all the corpses would still remain harvestable, however.

Yet another player starts killing cows from the same herd using level 30 combat abilities. They find that 2/3 of the corpses now contain those useless items, and 1/3 are tagged as too damaged to be harvested. Successful use of the 'autopsy' skill would reveal what powerful skill was used which caused so much damage so the player could adjust their combat skills appropriately, if desired.

Soon after, a fast-running veteran back from a month long hiatus starts farming the same herd with their powerful level 35 combat abilities. They quickly find that the last patch caused *all* of the corpses to now contain useless items and a full two thirds of corpses are further far too mangled to be harvested due to the relatively high-level combat abilities being used.

Finally, a character with the 'Pre-Alpha Tester' title walks by, sees what is happening to the fast-running veteran, realizes that their phenomenal level 40+ combat abilities will simply leave a trail of completely broken and unharvestable level 20 bovine corpses in their wake, and continues on their way... or smartly lowers the level of the combat abilities being use to allow for drops and harvestable corpses.

In summary,

It seems something like this, by discouraging over-powered camping (AE or otherwise) of low-leveled mobs, would encourage level appropriate lateral farming while preserving the sexy 'big boom' capability of level appropriate AEs. By disincentivizing such farming, it would also carry the added advantages of not rewarding high-level players for crowding out lower and mid-leveled players from low and mid-level content, as well as imposing a sort of soft penalty on mismatched skill 'power leveling'.

I'm not totally against the goals of this concept but that version of it could be extremely damaging to our economy and likely to the live version's economy. It would mostly require that drops that are primarily from these mobs (bats for guano in Kur for example) are farmed by same level players consistently AND entering the market. You would only be able to get them at a slow pace, or constantly keep "alt skills" at the appropriate level (leading to bizarre tedium), or even more obsessively have to check the NPC merchants in hopes that someone leveling sold the item to the merchant (a perfect example of how failed the marketplace is). The end result is probably a bunch of frustrated players who just can't finish out class skill reagents, professions, make money with crafting. It would have to be a huge overhaul of loot that would most likely result in less diverse gameplay.

I think there are three good alternate recommendations, and I'm sure both have already been made countless times in some variation in our forums but should be interfaced into this discussion (apologies if others have given their version already, but most variations of these arguments differ greatly in reasoning and mine is focused almost entirely on the "more economic activity is good" and "rewarding feelings from purchases/sales/play leads to player satisfaction").

More grinding spots
The first recommendation is to just give people way more good grinding spots. I think that this has been a great deal of the discussion in this thread. The game has only a few good AE spots, very few spots with "hard" mobs that need to be soloed but could still be profitable. Overall I like this games economy and loot drops as of right now more than any MMO but it can definitely be improved a lot. I mention it here as a direct response to suggestions to segregate levels of players within a zone in the current format for our economy. If we are limited to getting certain low level items only from player stalls (if a low level even has one), market board, and maybe NPC's our chances of getting certain items in high demand could be squelched. This leads to very frustrating gameplay. An alternative variation of your suggestion is to do something like what you mentioned and include any such important rare items in drop rates in higher level zones, maybe in quantities of 1-2 per drop to help resolve this issue.

Make PLAYER merchants goods easier to identify in a timely manner
The other immediate recommendation from my end is that they PLEASE make player vendors easier to search. Before you get pitchforks for me dragging it into this thread or resurrecting it, it directly interfaces with all discussions on "best grind spots" or best sources of money. If we had a way to get particular niche items from player merchants or sell them at a reliable pace it would greatly help the flow of the economy and reduce stagnation. Some items just feel awkward on the work order board, and I always felt these types of player stalls were more for "gear" such as armor/weapons. I personally would inject a lot of money into the player economy, daily, as I'd start dumping huge amounts of coin into it as there are many items I find useful but, as I'm sure many high level players would admit, sometimes it is just more profitable/more viable and certainly less tedious to go get the items yourselves and maybe make some work orders and hope they are filled.

I have discussed these issues at length, in game with my guild, for the entire time I have played and the discussion generally yields the same overall middle ground (from what I have seen) - there needs to be something done. I'm personally not a fan of any way that encourages "auction house" botting as I refuse to bot and I have quit almost every MMO I have played due to the constant presence of auction house bots ruining the economy. Other than that consideration I think improving this is really vital when discussing best sources of income.

An excellent example is there may be a particular crafting item that player A is really in need of to achieve his personal goals. He may narrow down his means of getting this to just farming that low level zone because he never gets work orders filled at even reasonably overpriced amounts (you have to break even sometimes) and the player stalls either never have the item or it is like needle in a haystack to find it. Guano is a good example and obnoxious to try to acquire. Cotton is another that can be a real bottleneck at times and the means of acquiring it is tortorous for some. I think most players would much rather try to find their own "preferred" means of making money and then directly dump that cash into the player economy in a timely manner through the work order board or the player stalls (via search function). I find it unlikely that I couldn't spot a bot designed to search for that item repeatedly and buy it and I'm fairly certain that a simple captcha combined with the need to move to that stall would seriously deter that behavior. The developers may know better but I'm sure there is a solution to improve the ease of searching while stopping botting.

Rewarding feeling from an action = continued motivation to repeat behavior

Speaking as a mental health therapist (by trade) - this is a concept in behaviorism which is essentially: how rewarding a behavior is increases the likelihood of it being repeated. Probably anyone knows of this general idea, but I won't go in depth on all the scientific reasons I believe the developers behind why the developers really need to smooth some of these economy issues out, that would take far too much space and this post is already ridiculously long. I really believe that somehow allowing the player merchants to be searched more rapidly (such as with work order boards) would increase sales of items, frequency of items even being posted -since now I can sell it for twice as much as I usually vendored it for because it took me three weeks to sell that junk item (due to how tedious the merchants are to search) and now that one guy who needs it can get it quickly).

It leads to a healthier economy and more satisfied players. I'm as much focused on actually enjoying crafting/merchant play in a game as I am on "how efficient the economy is" and I believe they are of course linked to a high degree. I personally love the player work order boards. They aren't the most precise method but I can drop some coin and get an item quickly. I generally have to overpay to get large orders filled but if you are really into a trade it is worth it.

I love both the feeling that I helped out a low level player (I generally way overpay on craft items to get them faster, and I have been messaged countless times with players wanting to set up one-to-one consistent trades with me due to this) and also that I got a good quantity of that item and thus was rewarded for my best efforts at earning currency. The work order board imo is functional, the player stalls are not nearly so.


NPC merchants
A whole other issue with NPC merchants as a reliable "backup" measure for this failure in the economy is that player merchants "cycle" items. As more types of items that NPC takes are sold to him, he filters out the items one by one at the top. These items are often not useful at all (one of the few junk items) or have so few uses that they could sit on that merchant, but you may need them in high quantity and just not quite get there in time. This is not by itself a problem and I'm not sure it should be changed - but combined with the other issues listed above it has its own impact.



I'm sure there are other recommendations to help more interaction between drops/activities with buying and selling of items. This is just one really obvious one that I felt an overwhelming need to discuss as I believe it is on topic at this point and one of the most relevant discussions to relate to any suggestion of what/where/how with loot/income. I may do a longer write up (essay) on my thoughts as someone who utilizes behaviorism on a daily basis at work in a multitude of ways - but it would be good for the developers and players to further consider not only what is "best" or needs to change for "fair" play but also how much enjoyment we get from linking economy and loot.

I love the charm of seeking out certain items in specific spots. I love how this game allows you to meet people naturally within content. Sometimes I run through a low level zone and help a player out and build a friendship this way. However, we can't be "fed" those items by low level players or mid level players easily. New and mid level players would probably enjoy the game much more and everyone would have more incentive to utilize the marketplace if we had a quick way to buy the items we like.

I believe that the concepts I just discussed and recommended are in sync with the developers' goals for the economy. As it is now with so many player vendors, it's just too tedious to seek out those items (like a needle in a haystack) and since I returned and there is a new resurgence in player merchants it's just exhausting to search them all. Listen, when I spend more time searching the NPC merchants and way overpaying on the work order boards while trying to guess the number of an item that one player out there has (so as to list in an efficient manner)... THAT is when I hit up that low level zone and make it harder sometimes on low level players there (though I try to be considerate).

Summary
High level players, particularly, value their time greatly. They will almost always focus on either the content they enjoy the most or those activities they enjoy which are the most fruitful (in terms of improving their character). Rewarding low level players for just generally exploring the game is essential. Allowing them to sell more of their goods reliably leads to more interactions. There will be more interactions leading to actual friendships, partnerships, etc. when players can reasonably locate people to do business with. I think most players are ok with some "charm" such as running around zones (mounts are said to improve this) in search of deals. Currently most niche items are excruciatingly tedious to locate regularly. This became a longer post than I originally intended. I tried to summarize some of the ways I see all of this interacting. I believe that the developers can maintain the "charm" of the game, which is sometimes a bit tedious, while also really rewarding a player for being a merchant. I certainly know that I ramble and am a bit tangential. We are all passionate about this game and what it represents within the online gaming market (there is nothing else like it now imo). We want it to turn out well, so in my case I poured my thoughts into this and hope that some refinements are suggested by others or it is found to be useful by the developers.

[Asashoryu]

I'm not totally against the goals of this concept but that version of it could be extremely damaging to our economy and likely to the live version's economy. It would mostly require that drops that are primarily from these mobs (bats for guano in Kur for example) are farmed by same level players consistently AND entering the market. You would only be able to get them at a slow pace, or constantly keep "alt skills" at the appropriate level (leading to bizarre tedium), or even more obsessively have to check the NPC merchants in hopes that someone leveling sold the item to the merchant (a perfect example of how failed the marketplace is). The end result is probably a bunch of frustrated players who just can't finish out class skill reagents, professions, make money with crafting. It would have to be a huge overhaul of loot that would most likely result in less diverse gameplay.

I disagree with your assessment on what the end market impact would be.

First, there wouldn't be a need to halt leveling a combat skill as an 'alt skill' under the proposal, but there would be a soft requirement to use mob-level appropriate skills when farming. You'd still be able to run around as a level 70 fire mage, for instance, but perhaps have to go back and use your mob-level appropriate fire magic abilities when farming bat guano drops in Kur to keep from burning up the loot drops and damaging the corpses. Assuming that such a character is benefitting from wearing level 70 fire mage armor, they'll still be more efficient and safer farming said mobs than someone who is fully level appropriate... they just won't be massivly overpowered in a 'one button click to AE kill' sort of way.

Where you see the resulting slow-down of high level characters farming low level mobs as a limitation, I rather view it as liberating high level characters from being economically incentivized to mindlessly farm low level mobs with little challenge or risk. If the slow down in bat guano production (continuing with your example) doesn't correct itself by way of level-appropriate players finding new markets for bat guano in game to reward their effort, then the bat guano supply and demand could always be revisited in the form of recipe demands and mob loot tables.

Player markets/vendors and resultant gameplay would actually become more diverse as a result of these changes, though individual characters would likely become less efficiently self-sufficient as a result.

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Regarding your suggestion on player sold goods though, I agree the player market needs to be made more easily searchable.

Ideally something similar to how the storage bookshelf in Serbule functions for storage should be implement to search across and allow purchase of all player vendor and consignment items 'in zone'. Serbule returns from such a "broker" wouldn't need to match similar searches in Serbule Hills or Eltibule, but I shouldn't have to waste a hour running around to several dozen player vendor stalls and NPC consigment vendors trying to find something that might not even be up for sale.

[ArkadyRandom]

I disagree with your assessment on what the end market impact would be.

First, there wouldn't be a need to halt leveling a combat skill as an 'alt skill' under the proposal, but there would be a soft requirement to use mob-level appropriate skills when farming. You'd still be able to run around as a level 70 fire mage, for instance, but perhaps have to go back and use your mob-level appropriate fire magic abilities when farming bat guano drops in Kur to keep from burning up the loot drops and damaging the corpses. Assuming that such a character is benefitting from wearing level 70 fire mage armor, they'll still be more efficient and safer farming said mobs than someone who is fully level appropriate... they just won't be massivly overpowered in a 'one button click to AE kill' sort of way.

Where you see the resulting slow-down of high level characters farming low level mobs as a limitation, I rather view it as liberating high level characters from being economically incentivized to mindlessly farm low level mobs with little challenge or risk. If the slow down in bat guano production (continuing with your example) doesn't correct itself by way of level-appropriate players finding new markets for bat guano in game to reward their effort, then the bat guano supply and demand could always be revisited in the form of recipe demands and mob loot tables.

I don't like this solution. It means players aren't using their characters how they like, they're using the skills within the mob level window. Players would constantly need to shift skills around depending on the zone they're playing in. That means players would need multiple sets of gear depending on what area and what skills they could use. Gameplay becomes much more restricted. It kind of goes against the spirit of the game being open and personalized.

[Crissa]

Players would constantly need to shift skills around depending on the zone they're playing in. That means players would need multiple sets of gear depending on what area...

Which skills have abilities that gate around level?

As far as I can tell, there aren't any abilities that phase out because of level blocking. You have to know all the earlier ones to know the later ones. As long as the level-shifting was automatic, it wouldn't be such a problem, right?

And we already have gear that is better or worse in different areas. Cold gear for the mountains, hot gear for the desert, gear that's better against different damages, gear that clobbers specific monsters...

[Mikhaila]

I don't like this solution. It means players aren't using their characters how they like, they're using the skills within the mob level window. Players would constantly need to shift skills around depending on the zone they're playing in. That means players would need multiple sets of gear depending on what area and what skills they could use. Gameplay becomes much more restricted. It kind of goes against the spirit of the game being open and personalized.

I agree. I would hate not being able to go back into low level zones for certain ingredients. I'd gladly buy them from people and vendors, but don't always see them. Keep the open world open. If I need flesh for cold resist potions and want to quickly run into the goblin dungeon to kill a half dozen mobs, I'm not taking anything away from a character 20 levels lower, and don't feel I should have to use skills far below my level and spend a much larger amount of time.

[Asashoryu]

I agree. I would hate not being able to go back into low level zones for certain ingredients.

It's important to note that no one is actually suggesting this.

I'd gladly buy them from people and vendors, but don't always see them.

There may be a reason why you don't always see said ingredients for sale.

If I need flesh for cold resist potions and want to quickly run into the goblin dungeon to kill a half dozen mobs, I'm not taking anything away from a character 20 levels lower, and don't feel I should have to use skills far below my level and spend a much larger amount of time.

Correct! That is perhaps the main reason why items which are trivially farmable as needed by high level characters aren't often found on player vendors.

Keep the open world open.

Nothing suggested would make the world 'less open', to suggest otherwise is akin to complaining that being limited to combat abilities within 15 levels of a lower level combat skill makes the world 'less open'. It *would* make you less efficiently self-sufficient, however... and that would make for a better in-game economy. (see your own argument against yourself, quoted above)

[Arundel]

I disagree with your assessment on what the end market impact would be.

First, there wouldn't be a need to halt leveling a combat skill as an 'alt skill' under the proposal, but there would be a soft requirement to use mob-level appropriate skills when farming. You'd still be able to run around as a level 70 fire mage, for instance, but perhaps have to go back and use your mob-level appropriate fire magic abilities when farming bat guano drops in Kur to keep from burning up the loot drops and damaging the corpses. Assuming that such a character is benefitting from wearing level 70 fire mage armor, they'll still be more efficient and safer farming said mobs than someone who is fully level appropriate... they just won't be massivly overpowered in a 'one button click to AE kill' sort of way.

Where you see the resulting slow-down of high level characters farming low level mobs as a limitation, I rather view it as liberating high level characters from being economically incentivized to mindlessly farm low level mobs with little challenge or risk. If the slow down in bat guano production (continuing with your example) doesn't correct itself by way of level-appropriate players finding new markets for bat guano in game to reward their effort, then the bat guano supply and demand could always be revisited in the form of recipe demands and mob loot tables.

Player markets/vendors and resultant gameplay would actually become more diverse as a result of these changes, though individual characters would likely become less efficiently self-sufficient as a result.

.
.
.

Regarding your suggestion on player sold goods though, I agree the player market needs to be made more easily searchable.

Ideally something similar to how the storage bookshelf in Serbule functions for storage should be implement to search across and allow purchase of all player vendor and consignment items 'in zone'. Serbule returns from such a "broker" wouldn't need to match similar searches in Serbule Hills or Eltibule, but I shouldn't have to waste a hour running around to several dozen player vendor stalls and NPC consigment vendors trying to find something that might not even be up for sale.

My argument is more towards actually giving high level players a reliable way to find goods which can be farmed by lower level players as they level up and enjoy the game. Some items have to be obsessively farmed to excel in a craft and this leads to the situations you see beyond just the "panthers" issue. I really don't have any particular problem with your idea I just believe it will confuse the shit out of people and frustrate them, when simpler solutions are available. Again though, its not like I'm saying it couldn't work - I'm just saying the reason for the problem lies elsewhere and its indicative of an overall crisis in the economy. There is an insistence by the developers to overly complicate things at almost every turn. I love the exploration part, the need to go in numerous zones constantly, the fact that the game plays by different rules than the competition - that part is awesome. The part where they lose me is when the intent to complicate or refuse to simplify problems for the sake of "charm" causes tedium which just burns out people who have been playing awhile. I don't want the game to be World of Warcraft (vomit!) but I think we need to be able to do some things in an efficient manner like the work order board. Give us that and I am positive that a variety of players (not just high level) will go and farm up the materials and post them for profit. It just takes forever to find good deals and it makes people tired.

That and as stated before, a higher variety of zones would really help. Both of these issues have been acknowledged by the developers in recent posts and I believe they will be fixed to some extent. I want the game to remain complex but I have to say I think it is tedium to need to keep multiple suits of armor or constantly switch to lower level spells to be at maximum potential. I will be honest too, with any spec I play with proper gear I can skill myself down to the level of say panthers and I still can solo massive amounts faster than a same level player (gear>skill level). Hence why I don't think it really solves anything and the simplest solution is to improve the efficiency that players can find a "niche" in money making and provide those items and sell them fast enough to players that they feel it is worthwhile.

[ArkadyRandom]

Which skills have abilities that gate around level?

As far as I can tell, there aren't any abilities that phase out because of level blocking. You have to know all the earlier ones to know the later ones. As long as the level-shifting was automatic, it wouldn't be such a problem, right?

And we already have gear that is better or worse in different areas. Cold gear for the mountains, hot gear for the desert, gear that's better against different damages, gear that clobbers specific monsters...

In that suggestion if a character's skill is too high then they can't use them. They would need to use combat skills from another line. I don't like that idea.

Even in the scenario where you could choose lower tier skills of your preferred line you're still being directed into a gameplay style. And it's still fiddly in that you would need to keep builds ready for each region based on what skills would work in that area.

I'm all for a way to prevent over-powered characters from trivializing content. I actually prefer scaling systems like you see in Elder Scrolls Online, or even a power cap system like Rift employs. I believe content should not be trivialized by rudimentary number bumps. I don't like the gray con system. I would prefer players never trivialize content, but I also don't think they should be restricted through the solution. The system needs to manage that. It's DM territory in PnP gaming and it should be the same in computer gaming.

[ArkadyRandom]

I agree. I would hate not being able to go back into low level zones for certain ingredients. I'd gladly buy them from people and vendors, but don't always see them. Keep the open world open. If I need flesh for cold resist potions and want to quickly run into the goblin dungeon to kill a half dozen mobs, I'm not taking anything away from a character 20 levels lower, and don't feel I should have to use skills far below my level and spend a much larger amount of time.

I agree, but I also think powerful characters shouldn't trivialize content. Maybe zones could have effective power caps so that it's not the high numbers, but the greater toolset that makes the character more adept in those zones.

Say a zone has a power cap of 25. A newer less developed (low level) character would have fewer skills and combat options. Their skills and power would be less fleshed out. A more developed character would have more skill lines, better skills, and they would be operating at their power cap for that zone. Additionally the more developed character would have the gear and procs that give them a veteran edge compared to the "lowbie". They're still going to mow through content faster, much faster, but it's not going to be trivially faster and if they play poorly they'll die.

In any event, whatever the team comes up with I'm hoping there will be a happy balance between trivializing content and restrictive play. The end result needs to be fun and feel natural, not jarring.