Welcome to Project: Gorgon!


Project: Gorgon is a 3D fantasy MMORPG (massively-multiplayer online role-playing game) that features an immersive experience that allows the player to forge their own path through exploration and discovery. We won't be guiding you through a world on rails, and as a result there are many hidden secrets awaiting discovery. Project: Gorgon also features an ambitious skill based leveling system that bucks the current trend of pre-determined classes, thus allowing the player to combine skills in order to create a truly unique playing experience.

The Project: Gorgon development team is led by industry veteran Eric Heimburg. Eric has over a decade of experience working as a Senior and Lead Engineer, Developer, Designer and Producer on successful games such as Asheron’s Call 1 and 2, Star Trek Online and other successful Massively Multiplayer Online Games.



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  1. #11
    Member Tigerwyld's Avatar
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    [Content removed by srand.]


    @Tigerwyld, that's enough.
    Last edited by srand; 09-08-2017 at 04:03 PM.
    "We few, we happy few - we band of piggies."

  2. #12
    Senior Member Khaylara's Avatar
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    I can't say I love the high prices but I usually open shops with cheap junk so once the rent goes over 3k i rarely rent till the month expires. I don't think we should have lowered rent during alpha though, retail management is a skill and since we get to keep that skill level in the next stages I think it's fair to have the same taxes.

    That being said the market doesn't function properly, we all know the causes-low population, people lvl multiple crafts so they don't need to buy tools, gear or weapons. So naturally, some things don't sell or don't sell fast enough and there are days when I don't sell anything at all. Stores that sell arrows, foods, gems, other consumables work well but scrolls, gear (even good epic gear), certain limited use materials don't really.
    I would have 2 suggestions to improve the current state and possibly help in the future

    1. again, a search function or a board so if I need "tsavorite" I don't have to check every stall (it takes too long and my character spins like a lunatic in that area)

    2. instead of rent, maybe a percentage of sales. I imagine people would dislike this but hear me out: my hope is that in the future we will be able to sell crafting products, those will be (and are already) fairly expensive and harder to sell than consumables or raw materials. So say I load my stall with gear at minimum 4 k an item, maybe today I won't pay any rent but 2morrow when I sell 3 pieces I pay 10% of 15 k (just examples, don't take them literally). On the other hand someone selling consumables/mats will sell items every day but it will even out since they sell stuff daily and I don't. Short version-everyone pays a tax based on how much they sell (to make it a bit more fair for people who sell more specialized items).

    Idk if my post makes perfect sense cause I'm rather tired, sorry about that
    Last edited by Khaylara; 09-08-2017 at 03:10 PM.

  3.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #13
    Administrator Silvonis's Avatar
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    The problem with changing anything temporarily specifically because we are in alpha/beta can defeat the purpose of testing as we won't get accurate data because the changed systems are operating under temporary perimeters. It can result in inaccurate conclusions.

    Then an additional issue is those who become accustom to those temporary changes and those who've never known otherwise become frustrated when they change.

    For example, if we temporarily lowered the fees of stalls then people will become accustom to those fees and those who never knew otherwise will become frustrated once the temporary cuts are removed. It's something that we see all the time and no, it doesn't matter if we say it's temporary because we get the same response to a lot of changes even though we are in active development and changes should be expected.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Tagamogi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khaylara View Post
    instead of rent, maybe a percentage of sales
    I'd love a percentage of sales. You make a good point about trying to sell less-frequently bought items. Also, I think the current system very much encourages selling high-priced items since no matter what you sell, the rent is going to stay the same. That makes it pretty unprofitable to run a store selling low-priced but in-demand items like rawhide sheets or empty bottles since you need to sell so many more of them to make back your rent money. Maybe the game's intent is that we just vendor those, but then that makes it less easy for people looking for those items to find them. (Plus nobody in their right mind should be vendoring rawhide sheets since they sell for less than their raw materials.)

    On the other hand, if there's no increasing rent that then removes the incentive for players to stop running their store 24/7 and allow others players a chance to open a store. I don't think just raising the the tax percentage for each store rental would work for that.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Crissa's Avatar
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    You're not going to get 'accurate' data if you're not willing to scale systems and effects?

    If something breaks because of slow sales - it will similarly break in the opposite direction with higher sales.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Khaylara's Avatar
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    @Silvonis - that's true. Just to clarify though, my suggestion was not meant for alpha only, just a general thought. Things like gems, stomachs, fire dust or food will always sell better/more often than "big ticket items" that are result of specialized crafting (i.e. an amazing max enchanted fire/ice magic yellow staff). The current market system is in a way punishing for crafters (you already know that). One might argue that it's only because of the low population but in fact that will always be the case. Crafted gear for example comes with combos of skills that might be aimed at a very small group of players (I mean the combos are so many) so this kind of item will imo be always hard to sell.

  7. #17
    Junior Member Wemedge's Avatar
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    I want to preface this by saying I never really used vendors to make money, most of the time mine was empty when I maxed it back when it came out. I made my fortune other ways. But as I noticed my storage was getting clogged with multiple stacks of stuff I didn't use much, I figured I would give vendors a shot to clear up some space. Guess I've had my stall a couple of weeks, and it's had it's highs and lows. My plan was to just open it on the weekends, to keep the fees down and sell when the most players were on, but the thought of losing my front room stall kept me clicking the rent button.

    As for the issues being talked about here, I agree the current playerbase makes it hard to make much of a profit unless you have the time to keep the vendor fully stocked, especially at max rent. I would think some sort of sliding rent system based on average weekly population would fix some of it. 100 average weekly prime time players, max rent 2,000...500 at prime time, rent 10,000, so it could ebb and flow with the population. Now how to scale it all, or even code it, is well beyond me. Just a random thought.

    I also agree some sort of search would be handy. I rarely look through vendors, being pretty self sufficient, but occasionally I'll look around to see any notus books or concoctions for something I need is around. It is quite a feeling to sift through every vendor only to find no one is selling them, something a two second search would have remedied. Not complaining, though. I'm sure something to make shopping easier will be along soon enough and I can wait.

  8. #18
    Member Arundel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvonis View Post
    The problem with changing anything temporarily specifically because we are in alpha/beta can defeat the purpose of testing as we won't get accurate data because the changed systems are operating under temporary perimeters. It can result in inaccurate conclusions.

    Then an additional issue is those who become accustom to those temporary changes and those who've never known otherwise become frustrated when they change.

    For example, if we temporarily lowered the fees of stalls then people will become accustom to those fees and those who never knew otherwise will become frustrated once the temporary cuts are removed. It's something that we see all the time and no, it doesn't matter if we say it's temporary because we get the same response to a lot of changes even though we are in active development and changes should be expected.
    Preface: Tone is important, and if you could hear my tone it would be flat right now. This isn't meant to sound like a tirade or aggressive, I'm just being honest that I have lost interest due to concerns about how problems are handled that I believe will reflect how they are handled post launch. This post is also long, but not everything that is short is better. I put some thought into this, so I hope you will read it. Also, I am not giving this feedback so I can make more money in game, I'm giving it because I hear this discussion too frequently and the economy is totally busted. I can make over 100,000-150,000 councils per day, playing for about 20 minutes, with zero interaction from players. This isn't a huge amount, but it funds pretty much anything I do as I only play a lot on the weekends (nearly 1 mil per week if I get one day of actual solid play works for me). My shop also isn't in the "A" room and I don't mind my location for my shop much. I'm saying this to counter any argument from naysayers that I am whining because I want to get rich. It's not that, it's that the game is all kinds of dead and I'd like to see some small changes to encourage players, and admittedly myself to some extent.

    The above quote from you actually covers my point from earlier in the thread (and in others), that we are getting "inaccurate testing" because the data is so skewed by how tedious stuff is. If you read my post, I made the suggestion based on economics that we aren't seeing anything remotely like a real economy or one we can expect after launch. If you guys suspect we can have 2000+ players I'm sure you can imagine how different the economy will be. In turn, having a playerbase of 60 online (or less on average) affects our ability to make money and our dependence on ourselves for all crafts since many times you won't have someone on to help. This issue directly conflicts with your desire for us to "specialize" and depends on others and the economy to avoid needing all skills.

    As an aside: Silvonis, your comments on "changing temporarily" aren't logically consistent. The devs (including you) tell us all the time that we need to "get over it because stuff changes" in nearly any facet of gameplay (paraphrasing, but I could dig up numerous quotes similar enough). I'm not understanding this logic. So if things are going to change and we may as well get used to it, let me ask two questions:

    A. Why bother patching or balancing now at all? (this runs counter to your idea that you only change what you absolutely have to)

    B. Do you not expect that players will be annoyed by other possible changes such as the changes to spells, skills, etc. before launch. If Timmy is going to die when he reads that the stalls will cost another 7000 councils instead of just 1000 per day (at launch), I promise that Timmy will also have a heart attack when he reads that his Fireball does half the damage that it did a few months before. Or if Timmy reads that Jim Bob's favorite skill has been buffed and may be as strong as his. Or if Jane finds her favorite dungeon has changed and isn't "just how she remembers it". These are all nearly parallel to a change in shop price and certainly many of these will change directly based on population issues and changes in game state (level cap, etc.).

    The state of the game is in a constant state of flux and many of the changes are a partial reaction to the current level cap, needs, and size of the population. If something is not functional you will change it now rather than later (read your own patch notes, nearly every line is proof of this). The same goes for stall costs, the current need with a sluggish economy (dead, really) is to lower the cost to a minimum which in turn causes more shops to appear and more economic activity - which in turn fuels player actions and speeds up testing and in general gives a more realistic view of how content you make now will actually work. This is a basic principle of economics, not my opinion.

    I find it hard to believe that someone complaining about the stall price going up after launch is any more inconvenient than 10,000 other changes which will occur between now and launch. The simple fact is it encourages an economy to boom rather than bust, and the fact that you guys can't realize this or refuse to change makes me highly doubt your ability to design a functional economy. I am hoping this doesn't come across as an attack, but an observation based on how you respond to requested changes. This issue is highly concerning to me, because I believe it reflects on how you will run the economy post launch: slow to change, not bothering with tedium that frustrates your player base, unconcerned with basic economic principles and encouraging player sales and activity.

    If your argument is that "we are testing and don't have time to change that" or "we are too busy" - lets be serious here, you will be just as busy after launch, if not more so, and your playerbase will ask for small changes like this to make the game better (not even easier, just less tedious). Your attitude towards it now does affect how you will handle things after launch - and I have seen this in countless MMO's. Also, you guys get a pass on a lot of stuff now cause it is Alpha. Your playerbase will be nothing short of brutal and far less forgiving post-launch if something tedious exists for too long. They don't even have to verbalize it, in fact most players just quit without saying a word (statistically speaking). I am sure you know some of these things, I expect that you have more experience than me with MMO's and certainly with design, but they are relevant points to the discussion.

    In the end though I don't expect you to do anything (melodrama aside), this isn't the first thing I have seen a simple request for that was very reasonable that was shot down without much discussion. I have barely logged hours in a month or so now just due to the absolute tedium of testing a game for you that is as grindy as launch but has no playerbase to support your desired goals (trading, lack of self-sufficiency) and no experience buffs or anything to compensate.

    I am quite confident that the devs, and the naysayers (fanboys maybe?) will write off requests like this one, no matter how well supported by data, as "just a bunch of whining over nothing". Fine, it literally bothers me not one bit. I have made my thoughts known and given warning about the short and long-term problems that this kind of lack of sincere concern and motivation causes in development and player interaction. I even gave myself some time partially off from the game to be certain I wasn't just burnt out, and it has only hardened my resolve. I like grinds, I don't like tedium. I don't mind grinding, I just don't like grinding and then losing 50% of what I do all that much - and I abhor doing such a thing if I am running solo (we all are basically now, the playerbase is beyond dead).

    I intend to enjoy my time. This week, I won't grind a billion panthers or sells a billion items to buy one skill - I will do something fun for once, something not in this game. Admittedly, I am interested in the game overall (and I like grinds), but not testing it in this environment. Knowing myself though, I don't check in on games at all once I take a true break from them. There is always some small reason that we end up quitting anything, and this happens to be mine. Sincerely, I wish you the best of luck.
    Last edited by Arundel; 09-08-2017 at 10:36 PM.

  9. #19
    Junior Member Rowina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvonis View Post
    The problem with changing anything temporarily specifically because we are in alpha/beta can defeat the purpose of testing as we won't get accurate data because the changed systems are operating under temporary perimeters. It can result in inaccurate conclusions.

    Then an additional issue is those who become accustom to those temporary changes and those who've never known otherwise become frustrated when they change.

    For example, if we temporarily lowered the fees of stalls then people will become accustom to those fees and those who never knew otherwise will become frustrated once the temporary cuts are removed. It's something that we see all the time and no, it doesn't matter if we say it's temporary because we get the same response to a lot of changes even though we are in active development and changes should be expected.
    Well, I understand what you are saying but there are also ways to make that very clear. When you acquire a skill with temporary changes for say owning a shop you can open a chat box stating this is temporary and having a small explanation about it. Regarding the fact you cannot test it how it is I think we just did that for you to show you how it looks with a small market with waves of population of young and veteran players.

    The problem with this situation where for 2 or 3 days I do not sell anything even though my shop offers very very various stuff from cloths to gems to crafted clothes to fire dust and saltpeter (just name it) is that in those days nothing at all sells. That is making the whole concept of player market lose its purpose if people just abandon their spot. And indeed like Khaylara says- We should make it look a bit like rl. Irl if the market is low prices go down. And yes percentage is also a great way of making sure the prices are variable enough.

    Another point i was criticized about was the fact i said i am a permanent vendor. Being a permanent vendor in 1 place with set customers is also part of a market model. You always have those temporary merchants but you have your department stores and well known well trusted shops you always come back to. I would like to provide that to my customers. I am willing to pay top prices for rent but... There is also a limit to how much money i have to provide for that rent. Its easier for me to just dump it for 2 weens or to the next month and come back to wherever but I prefer as part of other doses of causes i give my council for in game (as a guild leader and a player who helps others with resources and my time) to still let my customers have a set place and permanent shop.

    Sorry if its a bit messy but its morning on saturday (night for all you guys) as i am in the EU
    Co-Guildmaster of the Guardians of Asgard and a veteran MMORPG player

  10. #20
    Senior Member Khaylara's Avatar
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    @Rowina- I completely agreed with Silvonis from one point of view. If they make things easier in any way during alpha then change them they get a massive backlash. There are numerous very angry "wipe" threads asking for a complete launch wipe because "older players had things easier than us".

    Yes to permanent shops, even if the location changes I know Greyfyn's shop, Rum's shop etc. I'm actually glad that I can go straight to a shop knowing what they carry and not search for an hour for an item. Once they make the layout changes, more vendors should be visible and I think there will be place for everyone. I'm thinking in the future less players will have overpriced junk shops and most shops will carry actual useful items at competitive prices. Simply because a shop that sells Gruzark books for 10 k a pop will not be able to stay in business My guess is that's why the current rent system-to make it unprofitable unless it's an actual stall with useful items and not another storage option. Because the player base is small unfortunately it affects everyone atm.



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