Total Character Wipe

[Delceri]

Hey All,

I read the August 13th post that no full character wipe will happen as "payment" for alpha testing. Isn't this extremely unfair to new comers? I hadn't even heard about this game until recently. I've been taking notes of various npcs, quests & rewards, locations for mobs, etc(before someone says wiki, the wiki is wrong or missing info entirely in several places) to get a good start and fully expecting to wipe, only to realize people are going to retain *most of their skills*. Getting rid of their money and gear won't add real balance, as high level players will easily just farm back what they need(nobody needs millions of councils, just a solid set of gear). I realize that if I continue to play now, by release time I can catch up in skills if I focus on a few things. However I still find this unfair to even newer players, and I also like the idea of competing/building with others from a blank slate with the game fully completed(ish, no launch is perfect).

A lot of games don't wipe their *final wave* of *beta testing*, but alpha? Isn't there a better alternative here? One of the benefits of being a tester is having vast amounts of knowledge over other players for a solid edge anyways.

TLDR; Full Character Wipe should happen at launch or near to launch.

[Niph]

There are several things to consider.

1. If you want testers that stay long enough to test the end game, you need to reward them in some way. Currently, PG is so good that playing it is in itself a reward, but a full wipe would kill that.

2. It's a blessing for new players because they have established guilds and veteran players to provide guidance and come their help, should they be cursed for instance.

3. If you like competition when starting blank, that's a valid reason to play but PG can't please every style. Maybe there is another game around that is more for you then.

4. If the game is really successful, they might start new servers, and you wish will be fulfilled.

Regarding the wiki, it's a moving target, hence imperfect. Please fill the blanks.

[asalts]

1. Currently, PG is so good that playing it is in itself a reward, but a full wipe would kill that.

That's a contradiction

[Delceri]

A lot more responses than I expected. I am probably only going to reply to this many replies at one time only once. Sorry if anything comes off harsh, just trying to tackle through all of it quickly..no time for tact.

There are several things to consider.

1. If you want testers that stay long enough to test the end game, you need to reward them in some way. Currently, PG is so good that playing it is in itself a reward, but a full wipe would kill that.

2. It's a blessing for new players because they have established guilds and veteran players to provide guidance and come their help, should they be cursed for instance.

3. If you like competition when starting blank, that's a valid reason to play but PG can't please every style. Maybe there is another game around that is more for you then.

4. If the game is really successful, they might start new servers, and you wish will be fulfilled.

Regarding the wiki, it's a moving target, hence imperfect. Please fill the blanks.

1] A bit of a contradiction, but I'm not disagreeing with you on the point that they should reward testers, I just think the manner in which it is being done is suboptimal.
2] A wipe wouldn't change this. Guilds would still reform and veterans would still be educated, help can still be dished out.
3] I don't think pointing me to a different game is a good answer. But thanks for the reply anyways as at least you are being genuine.
4] That is true, however this type of decision can also impact the success of the game. I paid the $100 dollar pack, and I plan on playing even without a wipe, I just *personally* think its really really shitty. I wouldn't have even made this post but after talking to several other people about it who felt the same I decided to post. Some people I spoke to knew players who've already left after hearing this decision but I imagine that was awhile ago now.
5] (Wiki) yup.

In what way do you see it as being "unfair" to newcomers?

1] Would you feel that way if you stepped into PG 2 years after release, and needed to "catch up" as you put it? You are still a newcomer and other players have more then you do at that point.

2] Is it how quickly Player A (alpha tester) can reach Point X in the game before a new player can? Does this really affect the experience of a new player? The new player would have no clue at this point that Player A even existed. I really do not envisage players going for "world firsts" in this game.

3] Is it how quickly someone can accumulate wealth and the ability to craft as a result, upon game release? How does this affect the way a new player plays or experiences the game? This is only beneficial to the new player who can get assistance and maybe gear and coin from the seasoned and skilled up players.

4] What will be so out of balance, as you put it? The economy? The player vendors and the community will dictate economy, and this will always be fluctuating according to the demand and supply of items on any given day. Very very rarely is an in game economy governed by a handful of well organised players.

5] PG has been around in the testing phase for over 2 years as far as i know. I would like to think that constantly having our skills and items changed and deleted etc due to development stages gives credence to some form of gratitude from the developers. The no skills (some) reset is just that. As the developers put it, testing a game is hard work, putting up with bugs, constant changes, broken skills and mechanics etc. All of us who play the game in its current ever-changing state do so with a passion to make PG a success. Some of us even provide financial assistance to make it happen.

6] There is nothing to compete about in this game from a player to player perspective. I would argue that this game is about community and helping each other out, not concerning ourselves over who has more of something, or who can piss the farthest. If it is PVP, then FYI PVP is and always will play second fiddle to PVE in PG. So PVP is not a real reason. I know this paragraph can be argued and many have different opinions about this subject.

7] If you are worried that a player who has been playing since day one of pre-alpha has better gear or other items then you then you are going to be disappointed to know that someone will always have something better then you in an MMO. This is regardless of when you started the game.

8] FYI the wiki is a living document, you could say it is also in alpha stage, juts like the game. Only so much can be put on the wiki that will remain current until the next patch etc. Over time with the development of the game, the wiki will go through many edits and structure changes. Use the wiki at your own discretion. There is a disclaimer and caveats of its use on the front page for a reason.

9] I hope you enjoy PG as much as I and many others do. I personally think we are lucky to be involved in the development of the game as testers.

10] The concerns and opinions you have expressed are valid, as is anyone else's opinion about other game related matters on these forums. I do however think it is hardly game breaking or progression breaking for new players. That is my opinion on the subject.

Cheers
Ants

1] No I obviously would not feel that way, because the game would have been officially released for 2 years. This *is* factually entirely different and otherwise is your opinion of what a released game looks like.

2] Yes it does matter for players like me. If you aren't naturally competitive, you wouldn't understand.

3] Similar to #2 . From your perspective, you are looking at how advanced players can help you speed up your game. Players like me want to trudge through the dirt and race other players to the end-game. Can I decide to not interact with advanced players, purchase their goods, etc? You might think yes, but the answer is no. Player vendors still would exist on a fresh slate, and I could in good conscience purchase items from them for example, do trades, etc to progress forward in the game and be "cheating"(how I would describe it). Furthermore, the farther you get in the game, the more valuable your own crafting becomes and your own traders. If players have far superior skills than me, they can easily farm materials faster and craft higher level gear way faster than I can.

4] "Very rarely." You might think that, but the reverse is true in my own experiences with video games. Additionally, money in this game isn't so hard to get, skills differences amongst themselves would be pretty out of balance. I won't deny that councils are valuable, but having skill advantages over a player is much more valuable and can also tip that financial balance amongst other things.

5] I agree, long time vets probably should receive some kind of award. I don't like the idea of players retaining their skills as a reward and that is my opinion. I've also dropped $100 dollars into this game and will subscribe to it, so yes...money..?

6] See #2 , #3 . You don't come off as the competitive type based on your answers. Nothing wrong with that.

7] It's not about the fact that someone "has more than me", its the rush of a fresh start and the whole experience. If other players are already OP, it will throw off the experience of creating and building a fresh character. See #3 .

8] I honestly just threw the wiki thing in there as a very minor point. Surprised how much defense a wiki is getting, I realize that it's a wiki and that it isn't going to be 100% in alpha stage. It was more of a call for awareness "I've been working up data, btw your wiki is broke"(not just missing data). Clearly people are aware of that, I see that now.

9/10] Indeed, thanks for your opinion. In summary I think you are on the far opposite end of being a competitive player, so we'll never quite see eye to eye. I do really like this game, which is why I dropped money in, and will continue to play. However not having a wipe really kills any excitement I have for official release. I'll play the game, and enjoy it, again I just think that not wiping realllllllly sucks and will also suck for many new people.

A lot of games don't wipe their *final wave* of *beta testing*, but alpha?

1] This is the key point and i think part of the misunderstanding, and maybe a mistake from the devs. I dont feel and i dont think we are in alpha, it's more like a long beta and sometimes i play it like a finished game. The devs say alpha to lower the pressure from players or mmo websites. That said, players who dont know the game will just take the option to wait after "alpha" when they could just hop on now and have fun with us, removing their potential gap at release.

1] If you look at this game, you will see it is in alpha. They focused a lot on certain aspects of the game, so it feels like a "beta" in certain contexts, but it is extremely lacking in other departments like visuals. They call it an alpha, and I agree that is in alpha. You can't speak on behalf of the devs unless you can quote them that this is why they are calling it an alpha.

Its really not unfair considering the amount of sweat blood and tears that go into a character's development. This isn't like other MMO's. There isn't some end game content you need to rush too so youre not at a disadvantage unless your goal is to play through the game as quickly as possible or reach 'the end' first. This isn't a race. I've been playing 2 years and i'd say i'm middle of the pack as far as accomplishments and progression but I wouldn't want those two years erased.

2 years man. Brutal, that would suck for you, but I still hold my opinion.

Considering PG is not competitive thanks mostly to its PvE-only factor, i fully don't care about a wipe.

Me, myself and i, we will anyway start a new toon from zero, beside the huge bonus of knowledge about the game by itself.

I'd be curious to know who will start from zero, or why not.

I have a similar mindset to this. I don't think anyone will be starting from zero however, if there is no wipe.

I don't know anyone who would start from zero when the rest of the population doesn't. As for why not, my toon has acquired a lot of skill points through grinding (Poetry 40 for instance). I wouldn't redo this grinding, unless it's done with different content.

Think of it as enjoying a journey rather than enjoying reaching the destination. When I'm at the end, redoing the same journey from the beginning isn't terribly attractive. I rather see new landscape.

Yea that is another opinion. Thanks for the response.

If one wants to start from scratch why not look forward to playing as one of the to-be-added player races. And if things go well expansions will include new playing races that we don't even suspect yet, so there will be things that have a start point that everyone post launch can maybe get in on.

Personally with new races going to start from zero at least a couple more times. One will receive aid from his alter-egos, one is going to go it entirely alone.

In real life everyone born before you got a head start, but it doesn't really matter does it? Things should even out with time. And it would be difficult to change the stated intent that it is not total wipe. There is going to be enough drama with the partial wipe, with pleas for more wipe, less wipe and why my absolute favorite thing going to be diminished.

See my response to ANT3RA, #3 . I am looking forward to making alts with the new races, despite the fact that some players are likely going to instantly be able to pick them and there will already be a monster economy / high level players to juice your character.

In general I like wipes in MMORPG, they give game a new birth. Fresh start always encouraging for old and new players. Newbie time - it's the best time in any MMORPG and I always glad to repeat it again and again Newbie locations full of players - the best spectacle lol

But I'll be glad to play PG in any case - with or without wipes Devs know their stuff and would make everything perfect I belive

Devs will try to make everything perfect, but it isn't possible lol. I pretty much agree with this, and as a player who's been on games that wiped 1-2 years later and restarted... I had no problem personally. If the game is actually good, restarting is no problem. At some point however, a foot needs to be put down and say *no more wipes* so that people can rest easy. I think it's a bit early for PG to do that...hence this thread.

This is usual as in every Alpha/Beta I have played this always comes up .

I am not for a wipe even though I just got here not very long ago myself. Why? I don't care that much is why , I am easy going, I play for fun, I am casual, not hardcore and I take the game at my own pace. I just don't care to play another 'zoom for cool items and status' game and is why I love this game is what matters here is the actual game content not shiny purple swords

Let them keep their characters they worked so hard on.

Ill just keep trucking along

This was kind of a Billy Madison response for me.

That's a contradiction

Indeed.

The people who don't want to play a game where there is no wipe at the end of test phase, the people who like a level playing field at a launch where the only advantage is knowledge, the people who don't want to plunge headlong into play PG in it's present state and play it as a 'finished' game and want to wait for launch but won't because there is no wipe.

I believe there are many people who try the game and don't continue cos of the confusion surrounding what will/won't be wiped.

I understand about people wanting to hang on to all the different levels they have raised, I personally have invested a ton of time into the game, I've maxed several combat skills, taken many more to 60 and high 40s, and levelled loads of companion and craft skills, and level alts and have intricate storage/cash earning systems. I'd still relish the chance to do it all over again though from scratch on a new server. I have changed my tune a little, as I really was vocal about a complete wipe before, but I've come to relaise how massively attached some people are to these testing characters, and empathise with their feelings that they are owed a physical advantage at laucnh, knowledge not being enough, and the testing experience not being enough of a reward, which is why I don't mind the idea of the current server becoming a sort of legacy server.

However, I want the game to succeed, and by succeed I mean have a much larger player base - hence why I would like to see two servers at launch - the current one for people who tested with no wipe at all, keep everything - BUT no ne players allowed to roll on it. And a second server, starting from fresh like Eden, being the only server that new people can roll a character on. And allowing vet players from Alpha/Beta the opportunity to roll again. As in, the same character slot available on the virgin server. Just the only thing testers would take with them would be knowledge.

Cos lets be honest - on launch week, if you started playing a brand new game, but when you logged in there were already some high level characters running around it could well be off putting - and that might make for a rocky launch and less new players.

Depending on the reviews the game receives before official launch, and player size, I agree with this. 2 servers could actually be ideal if there are enough people to support it.

I just joined this game two weeks ago, so I can definitely see the perspective of how someone buying the game at the official launch and logging in to find an already established community, with established relationships and in-jokes, may find that a bit daunting and feel like they missed out on exploring virgin territory. But if they are warmly welcomed into the community, it should work out.

This is becoming the new model for online games, with Steam selling "early access" to games, and people paying to join Betas, there is always someone going to be there before you. And the MMO developers need these early players to test the thousands of items, quests, zones, and mechanics in the games as well as stress test the servers so they will be ready for the official launches.

I haven't seen anything stating if PG is launching with more than one server. If it is that is the case, the discussion of a wipe is moot. New players at launch can be given the option of joining an established veteran community of Alpha and Beta players or join a fresh server and help establish a new community there.

Purchasable early access games are almost always unethical by their very nature, and should die in a blaze of fire. Steam is filled with garbage now. Please do not repeat that it is the new model for online games, I'd like to think that the early purchase model is dying out because people are catching on and what you are saying is poison to my ears(or eyes, technically). I make an exception for a team like Project Gorgon because you can tell they are dedicated and care about their game. Otherwise, I really like the friendliness of your response lol thanks. I don't believe you understand my perspective at a first glance which is that I don't want to be helped by advanced players. I'd like to be at the front of the line, digging my way through it and working alongside players without the adverse affect of having op characters exist(in comparison to a new char).

Made it through, only 1 troll who didn't even bother to read my post. Obviously a lot of the current players are going to be biased towards keeping their characters if they feel that way, but in the grand scale of the game's release I think these opinions wouldn't be so loud.

[sudostahp]

9/10] Indeed, thanks for your opinion. In summary I think you are on the far opposite end of being a competitive player, so we'll never quite see eye to eye. I do really like this game, which is why I dropped money in, and will continue to play. However not having a wipe really kills any excitement I have for official release. I'll play the game, and enjoy it, again I just think that not wiping realllllllly sucks and will also suck for many new people.

ANT3RA might not be a competitive player, but I am. I enjoy grindy games and chasing world and server firsts. It took me about three months to max my first set of combat skills from when I started playing. It took me about a week to max Bard. I work full time and I'm working on my second master's part-time. Someone with fewer time commitments could 1-70 in just a few days or a week tops. It's a relatively short grind compared to other games, and knowledge is far more important than anything else. There's no point in a combat skill wipe. Veterans will have a strong advantage and be back on top before you leave Eltibule. Crafting skills are another story, but the only practical purpose of crafting is to fill high-end work orders. There's nothing to buy once you're maxed in a yellow suit aside from chasing cheesemaking and poetry appreciation, so I'm not sure that'll make much of a difference at all.

[Tchey]

I have a similar mindset to this. I don't think anyone will be starting from zero however, if there is no wipe.

Well, i'm not a regular player, i just play for a few weeks, and stop for a few months, and come back, and again... So i can test some, and see new content and features without being bored too fast. So i'm pretty certain i will drop my spider and my bat 30ish, and my musician... so i can re-enjoy again all the content and progression, making "better" choices (i'd not be druid again for example), having a complete view of what a real noob would have, etc.

When you released the new noob island to replace the previous cave introduction, i restarted again, for example.

I've alpha/beta tested a great amount of games, MMOG or not, and in most of them, i always start from fresh when the developers believe the game is ready to be a "version 1.0".

For Project Gorgon, i'll very certainly do the same.

[ANT3RA]

In what way do you see it as being "unfair" to newcomers?

Would you feel that way if you stepped into PG 2 years after release, and needed to "catch up" as you put it? You are still a newcomer and other players have more then you do at that point.

Is it how quickly Player A (alpha tester) can reach Point X in the game before a new player can? Does this really affect the experience of a new player? The new player would have no clue at this point that Player A even existed. I really do not envisage players going for "world firsts" in this game.

Is it how quickly someone can accumulate wealth and the ability to craft as a result, upon game release? How does this affect the way a new player plays or experiences the game? This is only beneficial to the new player who can get assistance and maybe gear and coin from the seasoned and skilled up players.

What will be so out of balance, as you put it? The economy? The player vendors and the community will dictate economy, and this will always be fluctuating according to the demand and supply of items on any given day. Very very rarely is an in game economy governed by a handful of well organised players.

PG has been around in the testing phase for over 2 years as far as i know. I would like to think that constantly having our skills and items changed and deleted etc due to development stages gives credence to some form of gratitude from the developers. The no skills (some) reset is just that. As the developers put it, testing a game is hard work, putting up with bugs, constant changes, broken skills and mechanics etc. All of us who play the game in its current ever-changing state do so with a passion to make PG a success. Some of us even provide financial assistance to make it happen.

There is nothing to compete about in this game from a player to player perspective. I would argue that this game is about community and helping each other out, not concerning ourselves over who has more of something, or who can piss the farthest. If it is PVP, then FYI PVP is and always will play second fiddle to PVE in PG. So PVP is not a real reason. I know this paragraph can be argued and many have different opinions about this subject.

If you are worried that a player who has been playing since day one of pre-alpha has better gear or other items then you then you are going to be disappointed to know that someone will always have something better then you in an MMO. This is regardless of when you started the game.

FYI the wiki is a living document, you could say it is also in alpha stage, juts like the game. Only so much can be put on the wiki that will remain current until the next patch etc. Over time with the development of the game, the wiki will go through many edits and structure changes. Use the wiki at your own discretion. There is a disclaimer and caveats of its use on the front page for a reason.

I hope you enjoy PG as much as I and many others do. I personally think we are lucky to be involved in the development of the game as testers.

The concerns and opinions you have expressed are valid, as is anyone else's opinion about other game related matters on these forums. I do however think it is hardly game breaking or progression breaking for new players. That is my opinion on the subject.

Cheers
Ants

[Mortitia]

A lot of games don't wipe their *final wave* of *beta testing*, but alpha?

This is the key point and i think part of the misunderstanding, and maybe a mistake from the devs. I dont feel and i dont think we are in alpha, it's more like a long beta and sometimes i play it like a finished game. The devs say alpha to lower the pressure from players or mmo websites. That said, players who dont know the game will just take the option to wait after "alpha" when they could just hop on now and have fun with us, removing their potential gap at release.

[Khaylara]

"PG has been around in the testing phase for over 2 years as far as i know."

Small correction, more like 5 years going on 6 I believe. First time I checked it and it was playable was 2012 I think. I effectively started playing in 2014 and some of the players that I see often were around then and obviously more advanced than me. Some of them actually helped me get started, I got lots of useful tips and advice.
Even if we were to get a full wipe (which would be wiping years of playing for some of us) anyone with some game experience would progress much, much faster than a real newbie. I'd rather use my game knowledge to help new players than to focus on remaking my characters.

[ANT3RA]

"PG has been around in the testing phase for over 2 years as far as i know."

Small correction, more like 5 years going on 6 I believe. First time I checked it and it was playable was 2012 I think. I effectively started playing in 2014 and some of the players that I see often were around then and obviously more advanced than me. Some of them actually helped me get started, I got lots of useful tips and advice.
Even if we were to get a full wipe (which would be wiping years of playing for some of us) anyone with some game experience would progress much, much faster than a real newbie. I'd rather use my game knowledge to help new players than to focus on remaking my characters.

Thanks for clarifying. I thought I was wrong when i typed that.