Welcome to Project: Gorgon!


Project: Gorgon is a 3D fantasy MMORPG (massively-multiplayer online role-playing game) that features an immersive experience that allows the player to forge their own path through exploration and discovery. We won't be guiding you through a world on rails, and as a result there are many hidden secrets awaiting discovery. Project: Gorgon also features an ambitious skill based leveling system that bucks the current trend of pre-determined classes, thus allowing the player to combine skills in order to create a truly unique playing experience.

The Project: Gorgon development team is led by industry veteran Eric Heimburg. Eric has over a decade of experience working as a Senior and Lead Engineer, Developer, Designer and Producer on successful games such as Asheron’s Call 1 and 2, Star Trek Online and other successful Massively Multiplayer Online Games.



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  1. #71
    Senior Member Eachna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khaylara View Post
    I still don't understand the logic. If a person just buys everything and doesn't resell it that person is not a re-seller. It's simply a person who likes to hoard.
    You were saying you don't like resellers and/or they don't provide a useful service. If we don't have resellers then all we have is hoarders or crafters. You "have" to have the ability to re-sell items in game or there's no functional economy.

  2. #72
    Senior Member Eachna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khaylara View Post
    Quoting myself but "In my opinion a reseller is someone who just camps the auctioneer, snatches everything that people sell cheap and just sells them more expensive". Buying all mats and selling finished product or just buying to hoard for later=not reseller.
    A reseller is not just "A person whose business practices Khay doesn't like." . A reseller is someone who buys a product in one place/one listing/from one NPC and sells it to a different player. It's a play style. Like using a Sword instead of Archery. Would you dislike people who preferred melee over ranged combat?

    In PG, resellers provide a few useful services.

    * They remove items from the Buy Used tabs (that have a limited display time) and move them to player vendors/sell on the trade channel/consignments where they exist until they're sold or deliberately destroyed. Those items aren't "lost" over time.

    * They find items in remote areas (Kur/Illimari/Gazluk) and move them to the higher population areas (mostly Serbule).

    * They find inefficiencies in the market. This is the part that you and some other people in this thread dislike (this is where items are highly marked up). You're blaming the wrong people though. People who don't like this should be pointing fingers at the devs and asking them to resolve the underlying problems that cause the inefficiencies.

    Resellers are "bug testers" for the economy and are just as valuable as people who endlessly spam combat skills and find abilities where the combat numbers don't match the written text or endlessly re-roll crafting mods to find where Transmutation breaks.

    Devs build the game on assumptions: "I assume that skill will be this measurable amount of popular" or "I assume that mob will be hunted with this measurable amount of frequency and drop a specific item at a predictable rate".

    We as players have to guess what assumptions and secret values the devs assign to things. One way we guess is by assigning our own cash values. If our cash values don't come reasonably close to the NPC values, then there's a "problem". We end up with rare and desirable drops like stomachs or poetry books highly inflated over the council values set by the NPCs.

    After some time, the devs are supposed to track down the source of the inefficiencies and resolve them. If they don't it's not the fault of the resellers that the items are inflated. The items are inflated because the devs have made bad assumptions (or a typing error) and not "fixed" the mistake.
    Last edited by Eachna; 05-11-2017 at 12:25 AM. Reason: cleaned up phrasing

  3. #73
    Senior Member Khaylara's Avatar
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    This is exactly why I didn't want to discuss auction house. I am guessing that nobody read my definition of a reseller and everyone keeps pushing descriptions that have nothing to do with an auction house honestly. Buying from a used tab in Rahu and putting things in a player stall is exactly part of the "no AH" argument because that NPC exists and is being used as part of the market. How much more simplistic can I put it. I am referring to players who CAMP the AH, snatch everything cheap, leave the other players without ANY other source of buying the items and resell everything more expensive. If I find stacks of femurs ONLY with 10 k at the auction house, what am I gonna do? Go farm them myself in places where they drop plenty aka Anagoge and crypt therefor taking those resources away from newbies.

    Inspite of the fact that we don't have an auction house follow this example-player X buys ALL stomachs off the AH. Cheesemaker A needs them but can't farm as many as they need. Player X resells them with 4 K each and keeps buying fast every stomach that is under that price. Other sellers will naturally want to make more cash and also start selling stomachs with 4 k. Cheesemaker A doesn't have any choice but to buy with 4k instead of 1.2 k. I fail to see how that's a good thing fpr everyone, a piece of cheese would end up costing 4k + or everyone would give up on buying materials and just farm themselves. Both consequences tend to kill trade.
    Side note, I actually suggested that their value should be higher due to the rarity and maybe that's going to be adjusted or maybe they will be made less rare. But that doesn't mean we need an auctioneer to artificially gonflate the price above its real value (given they drop better now I don't think they should cost above 1 k anyway).

    I don't want to quote myself again about my definition of an auction house reseller. . I did everyone the courtesy of reading their replies, please do the same without browsing through my post and picking on out of context phrases. According to what I understand by a reseller no, I don't believe it's a good thing.

    Can we please discuss how to improve the current system without more futile convos about a word's definition? I appreciate the effort that went into writing long replies but I didn't start this thread to have people writing novels about my opinions, I opened it because the current system is not easy to use, it makes trades harder and it needs some tweaking. Last thing, instead of trying to change Citan's mind about a core game feature I think our time is better spent only suggesting things and letting him decide if he feels our suggestions have any value in them. For "criticize Khay's every word" please open own thread

    edit-use imagination and picture there is no other source of buying things except AH, no stalls, no used tabs, no consignments.
    Last edited by Khaylara; 05-11-2017 at 06:51 AM.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Niph's Avatar
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    It seems to me people want to reconcile two conflicting expectations:

    . Players that want to buy something would like that to be easy: search feature, hand-holding to seller location, remote delivery, and so on.
    . Players that want to sell something would like to make a profit (over the cost of farming the item) through high price, or sell fast (or provide a service to the community, making the item available and not hoarded/left in used tab) through a low price.

    A reseller would undercut people selling too high, and prevent fast sales or the community service by buying items that are priced too cheap. If you try to prevent that by making it difficult for players to sell, or to buy, people complain. If you make it easy, people complain as well (maybe not the same people of course).


    Now for suggestions:

    - There could be a fixed player price, i.e. in stalls you can only sell or buy at that price, and it's driven by the economy: when a new item is on sale and previous ones didn't sell much, the price goes down automatically. It goes up if the same item sells fast, and eventually the price is balanced.
    Pro: no reseller.
    Cons: need some code and 99% of the players are probably going to hate that.

    - What we really want is not to make selling or buying difficult, we want it to be difficult to automate:
    . put a limit on the number of items one can sell or buy,
    . introduce a bazaar time window (say 1h) when you can buy followed by a cooldown (say 10h) when you cannot.
    Again, 99% of the players are probably going to hate that, but you wanted suggestions!

  5. #75
    Member Moki Mofiki's Avatar
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    I like the idea of a stat on all items that show its average sale price over the past week/month. This is something that will help those that aren't sure what the going rate is to see what the average is. Even then people will try to sell much higher or lower but will allow noobs to not be ripped off and create a more stable economy. Just my $.02

  6. #76
    Senior Member Khaylara's Avatar
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    I like that too but how to prevent a new player from selling say a poetry book that hasn't been traded before with 150 g to an NPC? You mean like it would show an average price of that whole category not just that one item?
    Also like Niph's first suggestion (I don't know if that's difficult to code)

    Another idea that might've been suggested already (providing it's not that difficult to write)-any item that was sold once gets tagged and can't be resold. It can be manufactured into other items that can be sold of course but the raw material can't be sold more than once.
    I experienced that in another game that had an AH and items were being tagged to prevent reselling. i.e. I buy berries from a used tab/player stall/AH and I can't just go place it in my stall for a higher price cause it's tagged. I can make berry juice and sell that finished product in my stall.

    None of these ideas/suggestions applies to player to player trade, people would still be free to make their own deals and pay as little or as much as they choose to. I'm only looking to brainstorm in order to make the player stalls/consignments/vendor boxes less frustrating to use.

  7. #77
    Senior Member Khaylara's Avatar
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    "- What we really want is not to make selling or buying difficult, we want it to be difficult to automate:
    . put a limit on the number of items one can sell or buy,
    . introduce a bazaar time window (say 1h) when you can buy followed by a cooldown (say 10h) when you cannot.
    Again, 99% of the players are probably going to hate that, but you wanted suggestions! "

    Lol yes, the first part hits the nail, I'd like to see trade simplified but w/o encouraging automating or leeching it. Limiting the amount of items u can buy or the bazaar time window ugh, yup, everyone would hate that cause it's unpractical. If someone wants to buy 40 stacks of cotton to powerlevel tailoring I say let them as long as they don't buy with 2 k and resell with 4 (which is "jerky" imho)

  8. #78
    Member ANT3RA's Avatar
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    I had a think about this last night before dozing off to sleep....yeah my life is like that

    What I have noticed over the years is that some games do things much better then others and some just don't care what community expectations are or what they desire out or a trading system or the economy.

    I have not put any thought into how all of these would function together or if all were needed, only that these things worked very well in other games. PG is unique and hence requires a unique set of rules and mechanics in terms of trading.

    The Concept:

    - There are two types of values (read: guides) listed on an item.
    - The base vendor/item price remains the same as we currently see it.
    - The game also determines and illustrates a min, max and avg prices for all items according to basic supply and demand of the player economy through player vendors and consignments. This is determined on a sale price avg from those sources, not from a listed price which can be skewed by the player base. Both buyers and sellers can see these prices and hence can determine what something is worth before buying it, whether from a player vendor, consignment or player to player trading. The game generated prices fluctuate according to this supply and demand structure. The min, max and avg prices determined by sales according to supply and demand are somewhat of a failsafe in terms the economy. This system can be skewed and manipulated by the player base but that would require mass council expenditure to raise avg prices for items. It can be done and with the right forethought and accounts quite doable.
    - Players can choose to sell and buy at the min or max price of the day, or at any price therein.
    - The min, max and avg prices are fixed according to supply and demand of the day by the game (think stock exchange). Players cannot deviate from those prices when listing items at any source. As these figures are calculated of sale prices it stops players from listing items beyond the max value of an item. Is also stops players from listing items lower then they are currently worth in order to make things cheaper.
    - Time is a factor in this idea, as supply and demand to some extent can stagnate according to how many players are actually seeking said items or playing the game.
    - Time can also be fixed, lets say 24 hours @ 1% reduction (i just pulled that out of my arse) in values due to poor demand or to over supply.
    - The same can be said to a market going gang busters, 24 hours @ 5% for price increase due to over demand and under supply in the market.
    - Player vendors are available in all zones, not just serbule.
    - Vendor (any source) to item distance is a factor in this system.
    - If a vendor (any source) is located in serbule and you are selling venison, prices are ABC. If that vendor is in Rahu and you are selling venison the prices are XYZ. Venison is not available in Rahu so the price for XYZ is somewhat higher then ABC. Distance determines how much you pay some said items. This bit needs some more thought.
    - A skill can be added, lets call it Mercantile, whereby trading, that is selling and buying from vendors, or any source for that matter gives you XP to said skill. Higher Mercantile skill allows you to sell more at your player vendor or consignment, possibly increases council limits at vendors just like favor, reduces core basic item prices at vendors, allows you to deviate from set game prices at a fixed rate. The rate would not be sufficient enough to determine the market of the day. Players still have the choice of doing the leg work and buying cheaper from other sellers.

    - There are more things i need to write down but have to run somewhere...

    This is all well and good, but I have not factored what actual coding this would require and how feasible it actually would be in practice.
    Last edited by ANT3RA; 05-11-2017 at 05:26 PM.

  9. #79
    Member ANT3RA's Avatar
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    I love you guys so much i postponed my meeting somewhat. I still need to finish my coffee anyway...

    - According to your Mercantile skill and distance to item factor, vendors will give you base price or slightly more for items meeting a certain criteria. Rahu and venison is a good example. Vendors in Rahu love venison but cant get enough of it so will pay more. Ilmari absolutely hate lemons and pay a base price for your stock. Serbule vendors are nuts about lemons and pay slightly more. Greenburg will give you his first born for lemons. Sims has enough lemons, so he doesn't count.
    - A search facility, hopefully GUI based, would be ideal. I can search for lemons and find that I need to go to the desert to get the best prices.
    - The market can be regulated by the game by allowing only a fixed percentage deviation from min to avg to max prices. Example lemons are Min: 640 Avg: 800 Max: 960, this is a 20% deviation. When the price changes so do min and max, but always at the % deviation. Extended example, lemons are Min: 666 Avg: 832 Max: 998.
    - The 20% fixed deviation acts as another deterrent to market manipulation.

    The benefits of such a system are thus..

    Price is determined by the free market ideology of supply and demand and calculated by the game as a price guide. Free will allows players to pay min or max prices as they see fit at that time. Players have a direct impact on prices, be this from wanting those juicy lemons so much that prices go up, or farming too many of those juicy lemons and prices slowly go down. If people stop buying lemons altogether price slowly go down etc.

    Having a min and max price, which can be initially determined by the game if required (this idea needs more thought), restricts players from posting items, above max price, and at over the top prices to make bank. It also stops players, or at least gives them less incentive, to buy everything at min price and then resell at max price.

    Granted this will be possible. But as the min and max prices are determined according to avg sales, it is not a very feasible way to make money. You have purchased everything at min price, hence lowering the avg price of that item, which also lowers the max price. You are hurting yourself if you wanted to make bank by buying all the cheap stock. If you post everything at max price, chances are nobody will buy your items, and source it from elsewhere. If nobody buys your items, market prices (min, max, avg) will change according to the rules, and your items will gradually get cheaper by a predetermined rate and you start loosing coin every cycle.

    New players are safeguarded and can make an educated guess as to what something is worth. Crafters are safeguarded as prices are ultimately determined by them and are always guaranteed a predetermined return.

    Player to player trading is still unchanged, however the min, max and avg prices are a significant determining factor to a successful trade.

    Ok I am spent atm Maybe I'll have more later.

  10. #80
    Senior Member Khaylara's Avatar
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    I think that's what Niph meant aswell but your post goes into details. I think the concept is great and is way more evolved than my "increase face value" suggestions,it's tailored to a smaller playerbase and less restrictive. I assume Citan occasionally reads the feedback since we don't really know how much coding is involved. I think some major changes are going to be implemented when he adds the capital city and my secret hope is that he plans to centralize the market there.
    We just have to wait and see but I wouldn't be surprised to find these suggestions as game features later on.



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