Update Discussion: June 10, 2022

[Sims]

The update notes are here: https://forum.projectgorgon.com/show...s-June-10-2022

Discussion is in this thread! But please remember to report any bugs through the in-game reporting system so we can track them.

[Ranperre]

In order to make Archery more appealing, we've kept the existing builds and skill pairings intact, and added a bunch more treasure effects.

Changed treasure effect: "Restorative Arrow boosts target's Nice Attack and Epic Attack Damage +188 for 10 seconds" => "Restorative Arrow covers the target in a barrier that mitigates 40 damage from Crushing, Slashing, Piercing, Acid, and Fire attacks. Lasts for 20 seconds or until it has absorbed 200 total damage."

Your introduction led me to believe you wanted to buff the skill and increase pairing diversity, then you erase what was its most universally synergistic mod? This is your game and you can do what you want with the skills, I just don't see how the objective is fulfilled by this change. Physical damage combinations with archery are dead/irrelevant, which basically means they're dead/irrelevant in general.

[INXS]

I agree with Ranperre, my build was Basic shot, Aimed shot, Long shot, Heavy shot, Restorative arrow. All my attacks are single piercing damage Restorative did help me deal damage was removed.
These changes did not improve my build quite the contrary. Appealing? No it's Appalling !

So i gave it a try and went out there to kill things i usually do to compare easily and decided that i can't really play this build anymore damage is way down and i have to use way more arrows , that's just not worth it going to store this set on a mule since it's useless atm.

[Coglin]

Although I have all the combat skills to 80+ except werewolf, I do not play archery often, so I will not speak to it specifically.

I just wanted to point out that I dislike any mods with a delay. I would be curious about the rest of the population's opinion, but I do not want to put that much thought into timing skills to have after-effects go off when I need/want to control the flow of combat.

Does anyone else avoid the skill mods with delayed effects if at all possible or is it just me?

[Melkhiresa]

While yes the removal of that mod does effect some builds I find it a bit disingenuous to act like the whole of Archery did not improve from all these changes. Considering how many atrocious treasure effects Archery still has, even after this, perhaps there is room in the future to put that one on a more fitting ability? Who knows.

While i'm happy for all the fire users it does seem like you have a love of fire overly much in this game. There are more effective fire builds than you can shake a stick at and everything seems to have a conversion to fire option over other types. At least this was given the same love somewhat to poison in these changes albeit the options there are far less open. The addition of the Acid gives me hope as well that we may actually one day get a skill more focused on that damage type. Currently BC is probably the only thing that Archery can pair with that deals in such. Alas that is strictly a armor damaging ability but at least the new Archery mod adds poison as well. Sadly for some reason though it was decided all of BC's bombs can cause fire dots instead of poison or acid so that somewhat limits that. Apparently firey poison is a thing? who knew.

On that same token I do find it weird the split put on these mods.

-New treasure effect for feet, necklace: "Long Shot increases target's vulnerability to Trauma and Acid +10% for 20 seconds. (Max of 2 stacks.)"

-New treasure effect for hands, necklace: "Hook Shot increases target's vulnerability to Fire and Poison +10% for 20 seconds. (Max of 2 stacks.)"

It would almost seem like the poison and acid should go together both thematically and how you set the rest of abilities, mods and synergy up. Just seems odd to split them up here and force another two mods that would at best only effect two overall abilities.

On a minor side note I really liked the addition of the stun conditional mods you added I.E

-New treasure effect for head, feet: "Hook Shot and Bow Bash deal +200% damage to Stunned targets."

But you left all the utterly horrible Bow Bash mods alone diminishing the value of this. Beyond the above there is literally only one singular good mod otherwise for the ability.

It's still way too early to judge how the mitigation changes will fully pan out but from cursory napkin math and such it really seems like Cow was the major winner of this patch followed by Shield. It's also a bit ironic that a Cow now mitigates more cold than Ice magic but whatever. Ironically what was nerfed on staff almost just seemed to be made up on the Shield side with the buffs so it truly doesnt seem to have changed much outside of a little less flat vs specific damage types.

Ice basically lost half of it's flat vs elites as both the base ability was lowered and even though it doesn't state such both mods for Ice armor were also halved I.E

- Ice Armor mitigates +16 Physical and Cold damage, and mitigates +32 more against Elite attacks

Is now just 16 and 16. In place two mods adding 10% each to elite mitigation were given, albeit somewhat placed on a weird ability for such. As to why it's weird Tundra is the only one that gets added taunt while the mods to Blizzard actually add negative taunt. While the new mods above seem nice it basically just puts Ice on par with what other tanks had before plus or minus a few % while Ice lost more of it's overall flat mitigation comparatively to the others. If nothing else it should at least be highly proficient at mitigating some elemental damage, especially cold, but currently is literally the worst at it next to Unarmed. Trying not to be overly negative as the idea of the new mitigation %'s are lovely I just don't see why Ice gets to suffer always being so far down on the totem pole in terms of effective mitigation.

On the plus side finally being able to use Ice Armor and Cryogenic when stunned is quite huge and removes some of the biggest horrible aspects of how Ice Magic functions. I wouldn't mind seeing some stun functionality on Shardblast like you gave a few of the other skills as it seems to fit in concept. As in "when used while stunned does X" They are neat and take away from the crappy feeling of being stunned so much in this game.

For Coglins point I really do have to agree. It's lovely when placed on something like an actual heal if it's around the 6-8 second mark but when you place them on damaging abilities they need to be instant or else it just feels horrible and never worth the mod space. For example on my Rabbit the mod that gives a separate heal on carrot power after 8 seconds is amazing and has saved my life a lot. With Ice magic I restore 80 health, 80 health and 120 armor and then another 81 armor cycling my Ice Nova, Shardblast and Ice Armor rotation. This effectively is my sustain through active gameplay and really feels rewarding and worthwhile to mod for. When you start adding timers to the damaging ability restores it just ends up losing a lot of it's value. Copying how Ice Magic does it's restores on damaging abilities I feel would increase the value of these and actually get people to use them.

On a last note I really liked the changes that were done to Psychology. While the skill might still need some work here or there this was a great step in adding to it's strengths and actually giving it good viability in a few roles. Alas the rage system still needs some work for a lot of this to shine especially in groups but the buff to it's support is much appreciated. I almost forgot to mention it but the addition of power refesh to metal armor has been something i've wanted forever and I am overjoyed to see it happen

[Tentacles]

I has some notes! and cheers!! Teal text is actual suggetions, tan text is me telling you i appreciate ya'll/being silly.

1. i (and probably others, i was too lazy to check cause sads!) provided the suggestion on the forums to change the text to exactly what you did!!!! IT LOOKS SO GOOD! ya'll truly work so hard and i do appreciate ya'll. unfortunately i can't code, but love to help all i can!

2. i have one suggestion for the text: please place a horizontal line between the attributes section and the sell value/etc at the bottom. the final horizontal line at the bottom would make it perfect in my opinion - a good item to look at that shows it is needed, is a white instrument item that teaches the skill. the horizontal line at the bottom would be amazing!!

3. spider needs travel mode stuff or... something. I also feel like there's opportunity to give them another strong mitigation reduction buff. All of their damage types are resisted by SO MANY enemies in the game, that not going druid makes you so incredibly weak compared to your potential with druid. Spider really oughta have some type of low-damage, longlasting mitigation debuff. My suggestion would be to take incubate as an example - make the skill very low damage, and only put one enchantment in the game that makes it do more damage. Probably make it a non-nature, non-poison skill - I'd suggest acid I guess. (this is to avoid the damage skyrocketing via generic buffs.)

Exampled idea:

Queen's Kiss
Melee
30s cooldown
Duration: 15s
Deals 10 acid damage/second, and reduces the target's mitigation against poison, acid, and crushing damage by 5.

Keep the mitigation low as well, but put the enchantment to increase the amount of mitigation reduced on two different enchantments. That way if someone is committing to poison/acid/crushing, it is a full commitment gear-wise.

4. Fill With Bile should be side-bar enabled. Druids already drown in sidebar options and for those committing to poison damage, it should be sidebar'able. Additionally, it should really buff acid damage too. Just saying. Especially indirect, considering Toxin Skin or w/e from survival instincts make so much sense to get buffed by you filling your body with acidic, poison goo.

5. The spider web skill in general is... idk. I find it mildly useless. I see the possible build that abuses it, but much like stun trap builds, it seems inefficient compared to... everything else that is also on a shorter cooldown.

6. okay but for real can i get the s on the end of my name ingame xDDD

7. ....also I still need to see the admin spider so i can be horribly jelly for all of eternity.

8. For real though, spiders need a bit of help/changes, and I have just... so much.. balance notes that I'd love to write up about everything i've tried, but for now I am focused on spider as there were zero changes.

[Mortitia]

There is something i dont understand :
New treasure effect for off-hand: "Hook Shot Damage +132. Non-Elite targets do not call for help."
New treasure effect for head, feet: "Hook Shot and Bow Bash deal +200% damage to Stunned targets."

First mod implies it should be the first arrow you use to pull mob, second mod implies that the mob should be stunned first (maybe mangling shot) but in this case it calls for help, no ?

[Melkhiresa]

So after running more numbers and trying things out I'm really super confused behind the latest tank balancing. The nerf to Staff was somewhat counteracted with the buffs to Shield, even if Shield did need just a little extra to stand on it's own. Cow just became apparently the god of tanks as it gets something around 322 flat mitigation with 226 ice and fire and 154 electric with 54 to all other types. Then add in two instances of 11% universal elite mitigation with clobbering hoof, 8% elite vuln total from being Cow and an on command 10% target specific debuff via clobbering hoof again.


-(Hands, Feet)"Chew Cud increases your mitigation versus Crushing, Slashing, Piercing, and Fire attacks +18 for 10 seconds. Against Elite enemies, mitigates +18 more"
-(Chest, Ring)"Chew Cud increases your mitigation versus Crushing, Slashing, Piercing, and Cold attacks +18 for 10 seconds. Against Elite enemies, mitigates +18 more"
-(Head)Stampede boosts your Slashing/Crushing/Piercing Mitigation vs. Elites +20 for 30 seconds (stacks up to 5 times)
-(Ring): "Stampede boosts your Fire/Cold/Electricity Mitigation vs. Elites +20 for 30 seconds (stacks up to 5 times)
-(Necklace)While Cow skill is active, you regenerate +40 Health every 5 seconds and resist +20 damage from all Elite damage types
-(Chest,Hands)Max Power +31 and Vulnerability to Elite Attacks -4% when Cow skill active
-(Necklace)Chew Cud increases your mitigation versus all attacks by Elites +34 for 10 seconds
-(Necklace,Mainhand)Tough Hoof costs -26 Power and mitigates +11% of all Elite attacks for 8 seconds
-(Ring)Clobbering Hoof deals +35% damage and if target is Elite, reduces their attack damage 10% for 10 seconds
- (MainHandFor 30 seconds after you use Moo of Determination, any physical (Slashing/Piercing/Crushing) attacks that hit you are reduced by 24. This absorbed damage is added to your next Front Kick.


So some quick math on the above before we bring Unarmed in to play. Say 1000 crushing is done to you. With what the Cow brings you would end up taking something like...

Physical:(1000 *.96*.96 - 322) *.89 *.89 = 474.94 taken

Fire/Ice:(1000 *.96*96 -226) *.89 *.89 = 550.98
(With Fire med this becomes 404.98)

Darkness: (1000*.96*.96-54)*.89*.89 = 687.22


Taking what Unarmed brings for physical mitigation you have a possible two instance of 7% to all elite attacks, and two instances of 19% to physical to add onto. Depending on if all these things calculate in the correct order for mitigation this could be lower but that is a ton of physical reduction. More mitigation could even be found with Dwarven armor and other buffs but that is universal to all tanks.


Acid, Poison, and Nature: (2)21% reductions
Darkness and Psychic: (2)26.5% reductions


Physical: (1000 *1 - 0) *.81 *.81 *.93 *.93 = 567.46

Dark/Psych: (1000 *1 - 0)*.735 *.735 *.93 *.93 = 467.24

Fire: (1000*1-0)*.93*.93 = 864.9
(With Fire Med it's 691.92)


Some combined math between Cow/Unarmed again for damage types with all the mitigations of both.


Physical: (1000 *.96*.96 - 322) *.89 *.89*.81*.81*.93*.93 = 269.51

Dark/Psych: (1000 *.96*.96 - 54) *.89 *.89 *.735 *.735 *.93 *.93 = 321.09
(with Meditation this becomes 233.90)

Fire/Ice: (1000 *.96*.96-226) *.89*.89*.93*.93 = 476.54
(With the Fire med that would be 350.27)


Mind you this could have even more reduction calculating mitigation from armor, both flat and %, and other -vulnerabilty buffs. This damage recieved is also split between armor and hp.

Very few things hit anywhere near that high outside of crits so most of the damage will end up being very very small that this combo takes. Next I'm going to take what is probably the weakest Tanky Skill among the options currently. Since Deer is in a weird place I'm excluding that.

Ice magic after nerfs brings a grand total of 118 flat mitigation against crushing, slashing and piercing.Then two new instances of 10% elite mitigation. As well as 82 flat trauma and 128 for Ice.


-Ice Armor: now has reduced mitigation vs. elites. (Was 27 and 54 more vs. Elites; is now 27 and 27 more vs. Elites) Somehow this also nerfed the below mods without stating such

-(Mainhand,Necklace) Ice Armor mitigates +16 Physical and Cold damage, and mitigates +32 more against Elite attacks. It is now just 16 on both.


Not really sure why Ice Magic needed a double nerf there when literally no one tanks with it due to it's many issues. Such as often resisted/immune damage type, low threat and the fact literally every other tank is just better even in regards against Ice. Ice doesn't even get the luxury of doing boatloads more damage to make up for this. At least with the two new mods now Ice has some protection against all the damage types it can't cover.


Thus Math time!

Physical/Cold: (1000 * 1 -118) *.9*.9 = 714.42
(706.32 against just Ice to be exact)

Trauma: (1000 * 1 -82) *.9*.9 = 743.58

Fire/Other types: (1000 * 1 -0) *.9*.9 = 810
(With Fire Meditation it's 648)


Sure you can argue maybe Ice Magic isn't intended to be the BEST tank skill but considering half it's toolkit is focused on that aspect this is pretty dang abysmal. Even the damage types it tries to mitigate it does a horrible job of. A Cow somehow mitigates more Ice than some dude who lives in a Ice bubble and turns himself in to a block of Ice to protect themself. I'd bother to talk about Cryogenic Freeze more in this situation but it has so so few uses, especially with Ice Magic's low taunt, it doesn't really account for much in the grand scheme of things.


For fair comparison I'll do a Ice/Unarmed just to see how much worse the pairing is than Cow.


Physical: (1000 *1 -118) *.81 *.81 *.9 *.9 *.93 *.93 = 405.4

Fire: (1000*1-0)*.9*.9 *.93 *.93= 700.56
(With Fire med it's 560.45)

Ice: (1000 *1-128) *.9*.9*.93*.93= 610.89

Dark/Psych: (1000 *1 - 0)*.735 *.735 *.93 *.93 *.9*.9= 378.46


It's truly Unarmed bringing the vast majority of mitigation to this combo. Before the Universal mitigation was added for Ice this patch it brought nothing to the table for a large portion of damage types. While some tank skills by themselves are weak to a type or two Ice is just across the board weaker in most.


Now I'll provide some math below of overall mitigation on the other tank skills just to add to this discussion.


Shield:
Gets something like 163 flat vs fire,ice, electric with a possible 54 darkness 32 acid and 55 trauma. For Physical if you run the Shield Team mods with the rest it gets something like 88 flat. Then Bulwark with it's 17% mitigation that is calculated first. The flat Elemental from Ward might be meant to be higher but only the mods add the extra elite mitigation. Not sure if intended.


Physical:(1000 *.83 -88) *1 = 742

Ice/Fire/Electric:(1000 *.83 -163) *1 = 667
(with Meditation the Fire would be 467)


Staff:
Max possible 238 flat physical taking every mod. You only have 74 of that up 3/4 of the time though. 108 universal flat reduction with the same 74 issue before. 13% mitigation and then a possible 50% mitigation against Psychic.


Physical:(1000 *.87 -238) * 1 = 632

Psychic with debuff:(1000 *.87 -108) *.5 = 381

Fire/Other damage types:(1000 * .87 - 108) *1 = 762
(With Fire Meditation it's 562)


So taking the old Staff/Shield build and not accounting for armor buffs ect..


Physical:(1000 *.87*.83 -326) *1 = 396.1

Ice/Fire/Electric:(1000 *.87*.83 -271) *1 = 451.1
(With Fire Med it's 306.68)

Darkness: (1000 *.87*.83-162) *1 = 560.1
(With Dark Med it's 379.57)


I might have missed a few numbers or accidentally used an 80 mod over 85 as well as some of the elite mitigations might come first in the equation, like how Bulwark does, but regardless it paints quite the picture. Cow got turned in to a better version of the old Staff/Shield albeit with some ramp up time. Staff got slightly worse, Shield a good amount better, Unarmed is still universally strong, except vs elemental, albeit mod intensive but got anti stun love. Ice got a hefty nerf and then a buff to still end up dead last by a large margin. I get it's hard to properly balance things sometimes but I do not want another year of a single tanking combo dominating the scene and making encounters trivial while some combos either can't mitigate competitively or hold aggro.


It's also worth noting not only does Cow end up with the best mitigation accross the board and has high self healing but ends up doing probably the most damage of the tanks, even more so with the crazy new stampede mod.


-(Necklace) Stampede deals +1050% damage if used while you are stunned

-(Chest,Hands) Stampede boosts the damage of future Stampede attacks by +38 for 60 seconds (stacks up to 15 times)


If you can afford to take the above and assuming taking double only gives two stacks per Stampede instead of 76 per stack. You end up with some crazy numbers by the end and the very nature of how Cow is a Basic attack spamming Tank now. At max stacks that accounts for 570 flat added damage to Stampedes 126 base. For funsies we will add the 45 flat ring in to the mix. There is also 90 flat damage additionally for 10 seconds after Moo of Calm is pressed.


(126 + 705) *11.50 +(126 * (1.8 - 1)) = 9,657.3

Now If the mod actually gives 76 per stack it's even more crazy than it already is. Although I doubt it works that way.

(126 + 1275) *11.50 +(126 * (1.8 - 1)) = 16,212.3

Let's get even more dumb and add Unarmeds Crushing Modifer from bruising blow in to this because why not.

((126 + 705) *11.50 +(126 * (1.8 - 1))) *1.15 =11,105.89
((126 + 1275) *11.50 +(126 * (1.8 - 1))) *1.15 = 18,644.14
(I can't remember if the Vuln is calculated before the base is added or after)


Plenty of ways to even make this higher but honestly it's already absurdly dumb. Not sure if that mod was a typo or the game is just Project Cow. Once again if my math is off feel free to berate me but this is what I remember the forumalas being.

As a last breakdown since Physical is the most commonly ran across damage type i'll show what each mob needs to do in order to do a single point of damage to the respective combo or skill.

Cow: (x *0.96*.96) -322= 0, X = 349.39
Unarmed: Adds zero flat

Ice Magic:(x *1) -118= 0, X = 118
B]Ice Magic/Shield:[/B](x *0.83) -206=0, X = 248.19

Staff:(x *0.87) -238= 0, X = 273.56
Shield:(x *0.83) -88= 0, X = 106.02
Staff/Shield:(x *0.83*.87) -326= 0, X = 451.46

Fire now because why not.

B]Cow:[/B] (x *0.96*.96) -226= 0, X = 245.22
Unarmed: No flat mitigation

Ice Magic: No flat mitigation

Staff:(x *0.87) -108= 0, X = 124.13
Shield:(x *0.83) -163= 0, X = 196.38
Staff/Shield:(x *0.83*.87) -271= 0, X = 375.29

For a parting note to bring back the topic of tank damage and other negatives it is truly confusing how much some pay for their mitigation while others seem to get it scott free. When it comes to Shield they suffer 50% direct reduced damage as well as a 15% slow all for 17% mitigation. While yes this occurs in a better spot in the damage equation it's still an insane price. Comparatively Deflective Spin gives you 13% for the price of....nothing? I guess at least now there is a little bit of a downtime to it. Ice deals with a 25% slow which makes pairing it with something that does not have an in combat sprint pure hell. As well as you are forced to take a mod just for anti removal from fire. Being as it has a 30 second cooldown and integral for other abilities that is a literal requirement. Beyond that Cow and Unarmed suffer none for their mitigation. Not trying to make everything the same it just seems weird. Even more so with the possibility of Cows damage now while being tankier than Shield even on a base level.

[Arquin]

Whenever I've used "restorative arrow" in the past it's always been to (ab)use the boost to nice and epic, and never really for any healing, so it always kinda felt like a misplaced mod. I think it's only fair that a skill like "restorative arrow" now got a bit of healing love. Not that I wouldn't mind seeing the buff to nice and epic back on some other skill, but this just makes sense.
I really think there are some nice possibilities to pair archery with other skills and get some fire and/or poison damage synergies going. Staff/archery, fire/archery and knife/archery come to mind. I look forward to trying some of those combo's out. I also like the improved blitz shot version and it looks like there's a nice pairing possible with poison builds, as a fellow guildie was nice enough to point out.
There is however one thing I would love to see improved with archery, and that's the "lag" between activating fire-, poison-, or acid arrow and the arrow actually being sent. In an up-close fight that can really trip you up, since there seems to be plenty of time for mobs to stun you while you're still in the process of "releasing" your arrow. Which is one of the reasons I only tend to have one of said 3 types of skills on my bar. If the devs intention is to get archery to pair better with other skills and different elemental damage types skills, then that could still use a little love.
But overall I like the changes and look forward to tinker with it a bit (uhm, during the few times I play dps)

[Arquin]

I think the changes to staff are only fair. I've always found the deflective spin mitigations too much.

I actually like the changes to shield and it still feels pretty balanced, while keeping in mind the defensive capabilities are being paid for with a hefty 50% nerf to damage when you're running bulwark. I do really like the concept of bulwark as well and use it in a few builds as an on/off toggle so I can sneak in some extra dps during fights. It requires a bit more active management and timing and i.m.o. can make for some interesting risk/reward situations.
I would like to see some possibility of an anti-stun mod for shield as well though, maybe just even the simple possibility to activate bulwark when stunned (it does feel a little unfair that you can un-bulwark while stunned, but not vice versa) kinda like a boxer turtling up and hunkering down in defense after being rocked.