Welcome to Project: Gorgon!


Project: Gorgon is a 3D fantasy MMORPG (massively-multiplayer online role-playing game) that features an immersive experience that allows the player to forge their own path through exploration and discovery. We won't be guiding you through a world on rails, and as a result there are many hidden secrets awaiting discovery. Project: Gorgon also features an ambitious skill based leveling system that bucks the current trend of pre-determined classes, thus allowing the player to combine skills in order to create a truly unique playing experience.

The Project: Gorgon development team is led by industry veteran Eric Heimburg. Eric has over a decade of experience working as a Senior and Lead Engineer, Developer, Designer and Producer on successful games such as Asheron’s Call 1 and 2, Star Trek Online and other successful Massively Multiplayer Online Games.



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  1. #1
    Junior Member Grief's Avatar
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    [Suggestion] Make equipment enhancement more streamlined and accessible

    I want to start with a (hopefully) short explanation of how I came to this conclusion. My friends and I all started playing Project Gorgon recently, we all have about ~200 hours each of gameplay as of writing this. We love how open PG is - in the sense that it doesn't hold you hand an encourages the player to discover and explore as much as possible. Like other role-playing games, we each enjoy playing specific archetypes to round out our party.

    A major draw to PG was the emphasis on player community and the perception of specializing into specific skills to then sell your labour (i.e. one individual trains carpentry to sell their product to another individual who is training fletching; the arrows made by the fletcher are then sold to an archer who will go out into the wilds and collect other resources and so on, etc.) It felt logical in a game like PG that you would have to rely on players who had specialized into a specific skill to be your source for that skills commodities.

    My friends and I each chose a line of skills that benefited the group (for example, we pooled our resources so one of us could train cooking and make meals for each of us). I just happened to take the lines of leatherworking and tailoring, in hopes of making great gear for the party. Along the way I discovered the ability to enhance certain traits and abilities into gear, using enhancement features from Blacksmithing, Tailoring, Shamanic Infusion, and Augmentation.

    This was where we encountered our first problem... and really, where the majority of my frustration comes from. Each piece of gear has an enhancement value that determines how many enhancements it can have added to it - which seems really straight forward until you consider the flaws of the enhancement system:



    Shamanic Infusion:

    Offers the ability to infuse relatively minor generic stat bonuses onto specific types of gear (such as max health, max power, and increases to damage). Anyone who has trained Shamanic Infusion can understand the problem right away - Alongside the minor bonuses, Shamanic Infusion adds the requirement of a Shamanic Infusion level equal to the enhancement.

    What? Why?

    If a Shamanic Infusion requires that an individual has that Shamanic Infusion level... why wouldn't each player just train Shamanic Infusion? What would be the purpose of visiting your local player shaman to have them infuse a desired spirit into your gear?

    It makes no sense from either a mechanical or thematic perspective. This desperately needs to be changed to allow players to equip infusions without the shamanic level. A shaman should be able to offer their services to create a more in-depth community.



    Augmentation:

    Unlike Shamanic Infusion, which has a warning that it will add a requirement to the gear you are enhancing, Augmentation is not new player friendly, nor is it community friendly. Everywhere within the game, augmentation appears to be a great skill for a crafter to enhance gear tailored to a player's unique archetype and playstyle:

    - The introductory book for Augmentation references players that can augment and transmute gear for you:


    - Augment mods themselves, which appear as early as the starting area of Anagoge Island, reference the ability for players to augment your gear:


    - Finally, the augmentation screen itself lacks any warnings that your actions are going to have consequences:


    The frustrating, and devastating, aspect of player augmentation is that it "Attunes" the chosen piece of gear to the player. I had naively thought that I could improve my friends great gear in hopes of making it amazing, but instead I ended up locking it to myself. Attuned gear cannot be worn by other players and cannot be sold to shops.

    This is an incredibly confusing system. Feeling defeated, I went to the Project Gorgon Wiki to discover that my fears were true - player enhancement is a poorly thought out system that does not facilitate a sense of community where players can enhance gear for other players - not even as a service.



    Conclusion:

    The enhancement system is so close to being a positive thing for the community. After reading into some older threads about augmentation, Citan mentioned:

    1. "I didn't want the highest-quality items to be passed down among players forever."
    2. "If you augment an item it's attuned to you forever. That's the whole point of attuning it, to get that stuff out of the economy once you've had fun with it. Otherwise that stuff will slowly become the norm and nobody will be excited to find loot anymore, they'll just use hand-me-down items from their guild forever. Overpowered stuff has to go away eventually!"


    I can understand the perspective on not wanting "best in slot" gear polluting the player markets and guild stashes, but that presents two further issues:

    • In a game as complex and intricate as PG, it would be disappointing to even see a time when there are "best in slot" abilities to begin with. Players should be inspired to mix and match abilities that suit their playstyle, there should theoretically never be a set "meta" that dictates one specific build that players fall into.
    • By not allowing gear to be traded, you've effectively created a money-sink where loot is constantly being destroyed, rather than creating the possibility of sold gear or services such as player augmenters.


    The current solution of attuning gear is, put plainly, bad. There needs to be a better solution if the fear of meta is as strong as it is evident.

    A possible solution could be for player augmenters to "attune" gear to another player (other than themselves); keeping the attunement system but tweaking it would maintain a sense of control but allow for a greater sense of community.

    Additionally, augment mods and shamanic infusions should not be competing; it would be nice to see a system where you could have one augment mod and one infusion on the same piece of gear (perhaps by reducing augmentation and shamanic infusion damage to 50 each), and then further Blacksmithing and Tailoring enhancements on crafted gear.

    By opening up this player crafting system you would see more players engaging with one another and a selling of services and labour - in general, a healthier community.




    TLDR;
    - Shamanic Infusions on gear should not require a Shamanic Infusion level to wear.
    - Augmenting gear with mods should not attune that gear to the player.
    - Infusions and Augmentations should be able to co-exist on a single piece of looted gear (example: reducing damage from 100 to 50 each)

    In game alias: Nymandil


  2. #2
    Senior Member Mikhaila's Avatar
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    -Probably wording needs to be changed to make it clear that an NPC should be used to add an augment, not a player. This is old wording. Adding augments didn't used to attune the item, but this was also before augments dropped and you had NPC's to put them onto gear.

    -Shamanic Infusion used to be hell to level. It's actually quite easy right now. I did it on an alt and didn't even use all the recipes once to max it out. It was more work to learn goblinese , to talk to the Shaman in rahu sewers. And SI is actually quite powerful depending on your build. It will get more powerful with higher levels.

    The system is a bit disjointed, but overall it results in a lot of versatility in designing your own gear. The more work you put in, the more you can do. Learning it all lets a player design a set of gear that complements their skills and maximizes whatever sort of idea they are working towards.

  3. #3
    Junior Member Grief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhaila View Post
    Probably wording needs to be changed to make it clear that an NPC should be used to add an augment, not a player. This is old wording. Adding augments didn't used to attune the item, but this was also before augments dropped and you had NPC's to put them onto gear.
    Changing the wording is a must - there is not enough information in game to properly prepare anyone for the current, centric outcome. Alternatively, the system could be changed to be more community friendly, allowing the system to operate closer to the in-game description. The current system doesn't seem to be working as intended, if I am being completely honest. It feels clunky and out of place in a game that suggests community involvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhaila View Post
    Shamanic Infusion used to be hell to level. It's actually quite easy right now. I did it on an alt and didn't even use all the recipes once to max it out. It was more work to learn goblinese , to talk to the Shaman in rahu sewers. And SI is actually quite powerful depending on your build. It will get more powerful with higher levels.
    Whether or not a skill can be trained quickly doesn't suggest that it should be trained. A task that is considered "easy" doesn't make it worthwhile.

    There is a disconnect between this skill and the goals of the game - it would be as if you couldn't wear gear crafted by another player at all. By adding the Shamanic Infusion level requirement to infused gear, you've essentially "attuned" that gear to shamans. It's not the skill that needs to be accessible to players, it's the gear. Players should have the ability to role-play the archetype of their choosing. Players should not be restricted from using a certain enhancement style simply because they did not want to train it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhaila View Post
    The system is a bit disjointed, but overall it results in a lot of versatility in designing your own gear. The more work you put in, the more you can do. Learning it all lets a player design a set of gear that complements their skills and maximizes whatever sort of idea they are working towards.
    A bit? That's an understatement if I've ever heard one. The versatility is virtually meaningless if it cannot be shared with anyone but yourself. I hate to remind you that this is a multiplayer game with a heavy focus on community services and stores. It's frustrating to think that there is core gameplay elements locked behind a solo-player skill.

    It's of my opinion that for this reason these changes desperately need to be considered. It's possibly the most disappointing part of what I've experienced so far.

    In game alias: Nymandil


  4.   This is the last staff post in this thread.   #4
    Administrator Citan's Avatar
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    Yeah, we can definitely improve augmentation. It shouldn't work differently for NPCs versus players, so we need to choose whether NPCs attune items, or whether players don't attune items... but there are pros and cons for each direction. The knee-jerk is to just remove the attunement, but I *am* worried about hand-me-down uber weapons. It's not a problem yet, but that's only because we don't have max-level gear yet. We will have max-level gear eventually, and I'm sure hand-me-downs will be a problem, because it has always been a problem in every other MMO with unattuned gear (unless the game has item decay, which we don't).

    So I'm not sure what approach to take -- I don't really like either of those options, so I've been punting the problem until there's new inspiration. I'm sorry it's been confusing and surprising! We'll get a more coherent solution in place soon. Maybe by giving augmented items an "attune-on-next-equip" flag or something like that.

    As for shamanic infusion, that's one where I reserve the right to sometimes make weird skills. Leveling this skill is basically an alternative to using augments, but they're only for shamanic infusers. Infusions make the equipment arcane and unwieldy (that's what happens when you glue a dozen enchanted lizard tails into your helmet!), and only people with the right training can use it. That's just how the skill works...I see no need to turn it into yet another "everybody can use this" crafting skill.
    Last edited by Citan; 02-28-2021 at 04:33 PM.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Mikhaila's Avatar
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    Players should have the ability to role-play the archetype of their choosing. Players should not be restricted from using a certain enhancement style simply because they did not want to train it.

    This is your viewpoint. I disagree with it and don't take it for a given. There are some things that a player can make for another player, but not everything. And I don't think it should be everything. If you want to use the Shield skill, you train it. If you want to use Sigils, you train the skill. Some of the enhancements to gear can be done by another person, but not all.

    You'll find that transmutation is also something people will need to train. Someone else can make the gear, but you need to do the transmutation (re-rolls) yourself as that attunes the item to you. Transmutation takes some work, but turns random mods into the exact set you want.

  6. #6
    Senior Member cr00cy's Avatar
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    I think good idea would be to make item not immedietly attuen to user, but over time. Lets say, after killing certain number of monsters, or wearing it for certain amount of time.

  7. #7
    Member Silkt's Avatar
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    Attuned gear should remain as is, account bound. NPC fitted attunements should also bind the gear to the customer. If a player doesn't want the hassle of leveling the required skills then they can buy the desired equipment from a player or craft it, they can can loot or buy the desired enhancement and take both items to an NPC installer.

  8. #8
    Junior Member Grief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhaila View Post
    You'll find that transmutation is also something people will need to train.
    Yikes. I would hope that there is never a time where anyone feels obligated to train a skill. My experience so far has been an organic desire to train the skills I want, never a blatant need.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    Yeah, we can definitely improve augmentation. It shouldn't work differently for NPCs versus players, so we need to choose whether NPCs attune items, or whether players don't attune items.

    I'm not sure what approach to take -- I don't really like either of those options, so I've been punting the problem until there's new inspiration. Maybe by giving augmented items an "attune-on-next-equip" flag or something like that.
    That is a perfectly reasonable solution to the problem! I whole-heartedly support this idea. A system like this would allow me to do everything I want to do, make gear for my friends. If it becomes attuned to them (unable to be sold or worn by other players) they can bring it back to me (or another trained player) to dissolve it and create something new.

    Again, the problem is that these are services that should be communal - you visit your local player transmuter or augmenter and have them adjust your gear. Commodify their services to create a broader sense of community.


    Quote Originally Posted by cr00cy View Post
    I think good idea would be to make item not immediately attune to user, but over time. Lets say, after killing certain number of monsters, or wearing it for certain amount of time.
    I like the idea of perhaps a hybrid system of this and what Citan has suggested. Maybe not have it attune as soon as it has been equipped, but have it attune the first time a player gets into combat? There is a solution there, I am sure of it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    As for shamanic infusion, that's one where I reserve the right to sometimes make weird skills. Leveling this skill is basically an alternative to using augments, but they're only for shamanic infusers. Infusions make the equipment arcane and unwieldy, and only people with the right training can use it. That's just how the skill works...I see no need to turn it into yet another "everybody can use this" crafting skill.
    I mean... you do reserve the right to make your own decisions. I just think, in hindsight, I would not have bothered taking the time to acquire or train the skill in its current state. Additionally, if I was asked by a new player what route they should take, it would be most cost effective for them to simply use the NPC augmenters than spending time and precious resources on Shamanic Infusion - it would be nearly impossible to recommend the skill in its current state.

    In game alias: Nymandil


  9. #9
    Senior Member alleryn's Avatar
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    My precious boar tusks and piles of crude underwears. I shall never master these tricky infusions. Curse you shamans for tempting me to try!

  10. #10
    Senior Member Mikhaila's Avatar
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    " it would be nearly impossible to recommend the skill in its current state."

    And no one said you had to. I had people tell me it wasn't worth learning. But I like running around in leather with 1000 armor and a sprint boost I've helped several friends walk through the skill and they've had little problem maxing it out quickly. But if you don't want to do it, then don't do it.



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