Welcome to Project: Gorgon!


Project: Gorgon is a 3D fantasy MMORPG (massively-multiplayer online role-playing game) that features an immersive experience that allows the player to forge their own path through exploration and discovery. We won't be guiding you through a world on rails, and as a result there are many hidden secrets awaiting discovery. Project: Gorgon also features an ambitious skill based leveling system that bucks the current trend of pre-determined classes, thus allowing the player to combine skills in order to create a truly unique playing experience.

The Project: Gorgon development team is led by industry veteran Eric Heimburg. Eric has over a decade of experience working as a Senior and Lead Engineer, Developer, Designer and Producer on successful games such as Asheron’s Call 1 and 2, Star Trek Online and other successful Massively Multiplayer Online Games.



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  1. #31
    Member Jarlaxle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golliathe View Post


    At least something you said (when cropped) contributes to the discussion. Priest heals and does all this other fancy stuff. Meanwhile mentalism on its own fails to heal well and has no fancy stuff. They both have epic attacks and can do some burst damage on longish cooldowns. Meanwhile priest also has a rez. Don't you think there is an issue with that?

    Priest has all this stuf AND more than mentalism; that does not seem right from a balance standpoint. As I said before I could understand this if priest had practically zero damage... but priest has really good damage too.

    Right now why would anyone pick mentalism over priest? It takes more effort to do less.

    *on a more personal note* - Is your intent to lock this thread and derail the discussion?
    No, I'm not. And on a personal note, are you trolling? or have you actually played priest to 70? It seems the grass is always greener on the other side for you.

  2. #32
    Member Mbaums's Avatar
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    I think it's a mistake to think its the priest primary job to rez. With rez being tied to first aid, its everyones job. And I still think priest is not OP because it can't do everything at once.

    The strengths of BC is also in the buffs (and wide damage types), which really have been ignored in this thread. Skin make a huge difference. Before priest, the common healer setup was psych/mentalism. But the content was actually tuned easier. Group size shrank from like... 9? and elite mobs did not lock. People would zerg druid events, manticores and labs.

    Priest being added was to be greeted with tweaking content that requires a tank. The idea was, there were to few tanks to make things hard, and once priest happens a switch will be flipped and stuff will be harder. I don't feel like finding the post but it was said by Citan, and i don't know if that 'switch' was crits or not. Around the time priest dropped AoE damage no longer scaled and probably 2 months after crits were added.

    I do understand your argument that priest makes the other options seem lame. The skillset that I think should get attention to become more support-y should be bard/horn. I think it's the easiest to balance because it requires hands, and honestly I want the bard class to move away from the 'get hit do more' play style it currently has, which is a bit solo friendly for a group class.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Golliathe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mbaums View Post
    I think it's a mistake to think its the priest primary job to rez. With rez being tied to first aid, its everyones job. And I still think priest is not OP because it can't do everything at once.
    If I didn't make the argument clear: you won't make a priest that is a great healer with great utility and do lots of damage at the same time. But you can pretty easily do 2/3 at the same time if you want.

    All things being equal imagine two classes. One of them can fly and the other can't? Which one is better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mbaums View Post
    I do understand your argument that priest makes the other options seem lame.
    Priest has so many options while most of the other healing classes don't. Having a no component battle rez is better than not. Having the ability to remove all statuses is better than being able to remove or prevent few (or none - such as the case of mentalism).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mbaums View Post
    The strengths of BC is also in the buffs (and wide damage types), which really have been ignored in this thread. Skin make a huge difference. Before priest, the common healer setup was psych/mentalism. But the content was actually tuned easier. Group size shrank from like... 9? and elite mobs did not lock. People would zerg druid events, manticores and labs.
    That is an excellent point with BC that you have some cool and unusual damage types but I will remind you bard is very much in the same boat (nature/poison/ice vs sonic/trauma). Funny enough both classes can do a meh support healer and build for aoe damage (the meh part being compared to a full dedicated healer).

    Golem healing sucks compared to bard song healing (both of which are on the automatic side of things). Skin is super great vs low tier content to cast on noobs as you can make a lvl 10-30 character immune to most mobs in certain zones; you can also use skin as a tanky character to be damage immune to mobs under level 55 or so. Likewise skin is super great if you are already crazy tanky as an unarmed cow or medium tanky with shield and something else vs equal level content.

    Skin is however crap if you are not already stacking flat mitigation out the ying yang. A well geared dps character in GK is probably sitting on close to 600 armor (shield allowance depending). The correct buff for dps types is extra heart as you get ~90 health, a ridiculously small heal, and extra power (theres even a mod for more extra power).


    Quote Originally Posted by Mbaums View Post
    Priest being added was to be greeted with tweaking content that requires a tank. The idea was, there were to few tanks to make things hard, and once priest happens a switch will be flipped and stuff will be harder. I don't feel like finding the post but it was said by Citan, and i don't know if that 'switch' was crits or not. Around the time priest dropped AoE damage no longer scaled and probably 2 months after crits were added.
    Crits have been talked to death but they make the game less fun instead of more. I feel like he dropped the ball on this one as rage attacks were already kinda like a critical and could have been built as a critical (not that they necessarily one shot you because /sigh) mechanic that the players could actively prevent with good skill management.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mbaums View Post
    The skillset that I think should get attention to become more support-y should be bard/horn. I think it's the easiest to balance because it requires hands, and honestly I want the bard class to move away from the 'get hit do more' play style it currently has, which is a bit solo friendly for a group class.
    BC also requires hands to cast heals/attacks (it's funny how they are so very closely related). Bard may be suffering from the 'recently nerfed' syndrome. But oh man was it broken before the aoe nerf!

    I would agree that bard support as a whole is lacking (if priest is the measuring stick of 100% working).

    Suggestion:

    What if we changed the hand mod for bard (again)? What if while playing your healing song you get +healing for people in your group being attacked but only got +damage when you get attacked? If necessary you could shift the damage song mod on hands over to the chest so they do the same thing (thematically).

    This would massively compensate for bard having very limited directed healing.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Daguin's Avatar
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    I just started playing dedicated FM/Priest build and have not found it to be nearly as useful as Battle Chemistry. I hope this ranting thread doesn't go muck it up before I even have a chance to mod it out for a full test.

    Quote Originally Posted by Golliathe View Post
    Skin is however crap if you are not already stacking flat mitigation out the ying yang. A well geared dps character in GK is probably sitting on close to 600 armor (shield allowance depending). The correct buff for dps types is extra heart as you get ~90 health, a ridiculously small heal, and extra power (theres even a mod for more extra power).
    This seems completely wrong. Anyone that spends lots of time in GK (or with any top end mobs) knows that full modded skins stack to provide TONS of mitigation and I have never met a single player that requests Extra Heart. It isn't useful for elemental attacks though, so my only suggestion would be to incorporate a new mod that adds fire/poison/etc. mitigation to the existing buff, or an entirely new buff for elemental resistance be added to BC skill set.

  5. #35
    Member Mbaums's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golliathe View Post
    Suggestion...
    I think its the number of heals more than the size. The horn thematically looks like it was only imagined for single target damage. Probably a 3rd of the bard mods are really about restoring the bards HP/armor, which would be nice if a bard tank could hold aggro. The bard changes were necessary but I think it overshadowed the horn, and I really don't think enough feedback was given to that. A bard build that requires 2 slots should have something extra besides whatever they have.
    If horn support becomes a thing, it should somehow be different than a simple heal.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Golliathe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daguin View Post
    This seems completely wrong. Anyone that spends lots of time in GK (or with any top end mobs) knows that full modded skins stack to provide TONS of mitigation and I have never met a single player that requests Extra Heart. It isn't useful for elemental attacks though, so my only suggestion would be to incorporate a new mod that adds fire/poison/etc. mitigation to the existing buff, or an entirely new buff for elemental resistance be added to BC skill set.

    I am guessing you have not bothered to take the time to read a few of Yaffy's posts. This post is from his recent thread on flat vs % mitigation:


    It's not uncommon for monsters to be hitting you for 300+ damage with rage attacks, or close to 1000 damage with crit rage attacks.

    The only thing flat mitigation is better at is reducing DoT damage since the tick damage is low in comparison.

    - - -


    Skin is fantastic vs low level content but go an make a video as a dps character and watch your footage. See how much less damage you take with skin on vs not. The advantage to a fully modded extra heart can be far more valuable to a dps character for obvious reasons:

    1. More power available to deal more damage
    2. More health (stack an officer ring, + health on neck/ring from SI and you're talking about a ton of health)
    3. What terrible nasty dots are the dps characters needing to use skin for in GK?


    Be aware this conversation is talking about maximum flat damage reduction with shield mods as well as unarmed mods (which you wont have). It is very common to see a dps character take a 600+ damage hit if they are in the middle of an AoE frenzy.

    What's that skin going to do for you?

    Let's say you have 600 armor so that's 24 mitigation?

    Skin will always give you 21 mitigation.

    Full buffs on skin vs piercing or slashing will give you an extra 32 mitigation.

    24+21+32=77 vs pierce/slash
    24+21= 45 vs not p/s

    Meanwhile fully buffed extra heart gives you 98 health.

    But remember we are talking about fully geared characters so they will be wearing nimble shirt right? So the first attack is a miss. With cheese and bis hp mods you can hit ~800 hp health as a dps character if you want (without any sacrifices).

    And while the pierce/slash sounds great remember that just the 4 main orc types do fire and poison. You get almost nothing vs most of the biggest nastiest hits (trooper/infiltrator/mages).

    But really why are you getting hit so often that you would even think about needing skin buffs anyway? The tank should be taunting everything. Now maybe you are talking about a small group or not well geared group and the dps knows he will take lots of primary hits. Sure use skin instead; otherwise you should get more out of extra heart.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Yaffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golliathe View Post
    I am guessing you have not bothered to take the time to read a few of Yaffy's posts. This post is from his recent thread on flat vs % mitigation:


    It's not uncommon for monsters to be hitting you for 300+ damage with rage attacks, or close to 1000 damage with crit rage attacks.

    The only thing flat mitigation is better at is reducing DoT damage since the tick damage is low in comparison.
    Yes, and that's why the thick skin buff is useful, because it reduces indirect damage. It's also why Priest being able to remove poison isn't very helpful, because thick skin reduces all DoT damage including poison, usually to near zero or zero so you don't need to cure it in the first place. Out of all instances of flat damage mitigation, thick skin is probably one of the few rare cases where I don't think it needs to be buffed.

    While I do think the power regeneration from extra heart could be useful in some situations, most groups have too much downtime between pulls to take advantage of the minimal power regeneration heart gives, and most DPS builds should not be power starved assuming the players have good food and are playing properly. If you have a very fast group which has little downtime between pulls, then it could potentially be more helpful than skin. That's why I disagree with your statement of "More power available to deal more damage", end game DPS builds are not limited by power because fights are too short, the players themselves need to extend combat by constantly pulling more mobs in order for power regeneration to be valuable.

    Also, you argue that the DPS should not be getting hit by enemies if you have a tank, but you forgot to mention Tacticians, which are the one enemy type that uses AoE attacks that also happen to be physical. Also this AoE from tacticians is one of the weakest attacks in GK potentially due to the fact that enemies suffer a penalty to damage if they hit more than 3 targets, which means the flat reduction from thick skin can be noticeable (Although it still might as well not exist if they crit). Thick skin not only reduces the damage dealt to the group from tactician AoEs, but it also gives a health regeneration effect which can help the BC user keep the party healthy. It's not a big effect, but the chance the extra mitigation/healing will come into play is larger than the power regeneration from extra heart.

    Additionally, I would also like to state that while you are correct that the effect of thick skin on most attacks is very small, extra heart's power regeneration effect is also very small. It's about 3 power per second, assuming the 20 second regen effect is used perfectly efficiently. With end game skills, that might mean an extra attack's worth of power every 10-30 seconds, depending on what you're using. Thick Skin's regen effect heals 98 health every 20 seconds, which is a bit more noticeable since it's essentially a minor heal on the whole party every 20 seconds. This makes Thick Skin essentially double as another healing skill which isn't that big, but requires no investment or GCD usage in combat which is useful for someone trying to splash healing with damage or support.

    I do believe extra heart is potentially better than thick skin assuming the group's run is going incredibly well and the group is also very powerful, but by then I would argue you should be replacing the Battle Chemist with a different skill if you're really trying to be a perfectionist. One of battle chemistry's best traits is that it is incredibly powerful for under-prepared or disorganized groups, and thick skin is part of that.
    Last edited by Yaffy; 04-24-2019 at 12:03 AM.

  8. #38
    Member Jarlaxle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golliathe View Post
    I am guessing you have not bothered to take the time to read a few of Yaffy's posts. This post is from his recent thread on flat vs % mitigation:


    It's not uncommon for monsters to be hitting you for 300+ damage with rage attacks, or close to 1000 damage with crit rage attacks.

    The only thing flat mitigation is better at is reducing DoT damage since the tick damage is low in comparison.

    - - -


    Skin is fantastic vs low level content but go an make a video as a dps character and watch your footage. See how much less damage you take with skin on vs not. The advantage to a fully modded extra heart can be far more valuable to a dps character for obvious reasons:

    1. More power available to deal more damage
    2. More health (stack an officer ring, + health on neck/ring from SI and you're talking about a ton of health)
    3. What terrible nasty dots are the dps characters needing to use skin for in GK?


    Be aware this conversation is talking about maximum flat damage reduction with shield mods as well as unarmed mods (which you wont have). It is very common to see a dps character take a 600+ damage hit if they are in the middle of an AoE frenzy.

    What's that skin going to do for you?

    Let's say you have 600 armor so that's 24 mitigation?

    Skin will always give you 21 mitigation.

    Full buffs on skin vs piercing or slashing will give you an extra 32 mitigation.

    24+21+32=77 vs pierce/slash
    24+21= 45 vs not p/s

    Meanwhile fully buffed extra heart gives you 98 health.

    But remember we are talking about fully geared characters so they will be wearing nimble shirt right? So the first attack is a miss. With cheese and bis hp mods you can hit ~800 hp health as a dps character if you want (without any sacrifices).

    And while the pierce/slash sounds great remember that just the 4 main orc types do fire and poison. You get almost nothing vs most of the biggest nastiest hits (trooper/infiltrator/mages).

    But really why are you getting hit so often that you would even think about needing skin buffs anyway? The tank should be taunting everything. Now maybe you are talking about a small group or not well geared group and the dps knows he will take lots of primary hits. Sure use skin instead; otherwise you should get more out of extra heart.
    Not gonna bother responding to every point there since most of it is illogical. Like if flat mitigation doesn't matter, then just wear full cloth from head to toe since armor obviously doesn't matter (it provides flat mit) so now at least you get more combat refresh right? Except nobody does that. You know why? Because not every hit is going to be a 1.5k dmg 1 shot crit. The average hit is for much less where flat mitigation is very useful. At least way more useful than heart. Because that extra 32 mitigation from buff that you believe is worthless is equivalent to an additional 800 armor (assuming 1 point of mitigation per 25 armor). So unless really think armor doesn't matter at all and full cloth set is the way to go, then your argument that skin sucks just does not make any sense at all.

    And there is absolutely no one that does GK that prefers heart over skin, besides you. Not saying going against the consensus is always wrong, but in this case and many cases you are. That or you're making a terrible argument for why skin sucks (other than saying Yaffy said so in thread x post y)
    Last edited by Jarlaxle; 04-24-2019 at 12:49 AM.

  9. #39
    Member ErDrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Like if flat mitigation doesn't matter, then just wear full cloth from head to toe since armor obviously doesn't matter (it provides flat mit) so now at least you get more combat refresh right? Except nobody does that. You know why? Because not every hit is going to be a 1.5k dmg 1 shot crit. The average hit is for much less where flat mitigation is very useful. At least way more useful than heart. Because that extra 32 mitigation from buff that you believe is worthless is equivalent to an additional 800 armor (assuming 1 point of mitigation per 25 armor). So unless really think armor doesn't matter at all and full cloth set is the way to go, then your argument that skin sucks just does not make any sense at all.

    You are both right and wrong.

    You are right in your reasoning that thick skin is still decent because it provides as much mitigation as several hundred armor, But wrong in assuming that people don't wear full cloth sets. The reason for this is you don't lose thick skin mitigation in the first 5 seconds of a fight as you take damage. Armor is basically just extra health that's harder to heal, The mitigation you get from armor might as well not even exist, because it's gone in 3-5 seconds( 7 seconds or so if you have a few heals for it, and can last longer in groups when other people are spam healing your armor.. but that is rare). Of course it goes a lot farther if you aren't in max level content( but still wearing max armor value armor), that's where armor actually does matter. There are a few extremely focused builds that can restore their own armor effectively but, in all other cases it's just extra health, and even in that case really it's still just extra health, the mitigation is completely unreliable because it constantly fluctuates way too fast for you to really count on it for anything.

    TLDR metal vs cloth you are really just losing 150-200ish health.

    Back on topic though:

    Priest has the same amount of instant heals as every other healing class. It has one instant single target and one instant AE that's minimally effective but good for topping people off when you know they will be taking more damage soon ( like vs GK bosses that spam ae's). This is inline with all other healing skillsets. The other heals are channeled which sort of makes them suck ( but the auto target on triage is nice, providing they are still alive in 2 seconds). When you see a player at half health and no armor ( which can happen from them taking a single hit) and then target them and then start channeling a heal, odds are fairly 50/50 that they are going to die anyways before it lands, plus if anything so much as touches you it interrupts your channel (including ae attacks).

    Cure poison I only use when I'm healing someone through a manticore, and really only for the luls, it isn't necessary. I have sat there and healed someone while they killed a manticore ( by tanking it) both with and without using the cure poison ability and there is almost no difference, but it does give me something extra to do.

    Unfetter is nice (bard can do it too though with moment of resolve mods) but only because they gave trash mobs ridiculous amounts of crowd control in the form of chain stunning and snaring, would be better if it wasn't needed for every trash pull. If anyone ever wondered why I stopped playing sword after several years of using it, that is why, I got sick of the constant knockback/ knockdown / snared / rooted / stunned ( sometimes chain stunned for 15+ seconds) / and that moving back into position after some of these eats your power because... reasons? There are many parts of certain dungeons where this stuff just happens constantly. Some wrenches in the machinery are great but I feel like they went totally overboard with it around the time DC came out and then with everything that came afterwards ( although wolfpack chain stun was out of control before that, still is). So unfetter ( and moment of resolve) is sort of artificially good atm, because there is so much cc being flung around by mobs, it doesn't help that they have skills that don't follow the normal rules ours follow ( temporary immunity after being hit by one) or that they come in ludicrous sized packs, where each one stuns you for 1 second perfectly as soon as the previous one wears off as only a computer can do.

    Tether soul is neat and almost awesome, it's the kind of thing that really needs to add an icon to the party window or something ( your own buff window at the least) showing it's active and if the person that just died is triggering it or not. 1 free resurrect per 10 mins though ( or was it 15minutes? I can't be bothered to log in just to note that atm) really is just saving you 2 diamonds... I wouldn't mind if casting it actually cost you a diamond to balance it out, as long as the UI issues with it were taken care of as well. (I say only one diamond because sometimes it expires without actually even resurrecting anyone). Even better allow tether soul to just effect the caster as well and solve all that in one swoop.

    @Citan you asked what's fun about priest, the answer is nothing really, it's just a different way to heal ( which is fine in it's own right). But I would definitely like to see a buff for the caster that lets you know the status of your tether soul. I'd also like it if getting hit didn't interrupt a channel so you can take your lumps and channel anyways knowing it's going to fire at least, there is really no reason for it not to function this way. Alternately, more range would be acceptable.. being both forced and prohibited to stand in AE's is an issue. But personally, I really wanted to be a "paladin" ( melee + priest) even though I have reasons to not want to play melee anymore, but with heals being interrupted by a single hit that's pretty impossible.
    Last edited by ErDrick; 04-24-2019 at 10:16 PM.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Golliathe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaffy View Post

    While I do think the power regeneration from extra heart could be useful in some situations, most groups have too much downtime between pulls to take advantage of the minimal power regeneration heart gives, and most DPS builds should not be power starved assuming the players have good food and are playing properly. If you have a very fast group which has little downtime between pulls, then it could potentially be more helpful than skin. That's why I disagree with your statement of "More power available to deal more damage", end game DPS builds are not limited by power because fights are too short, the players themselves need to extend combat by constantly pulling more mobs in order for power regeneration to be valuable.
    It's an issue of your mileage may vary. Some people try to finish GK really fast with 6-8 mob pulls. Killing one or two mobs at a time is very different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaffy View Post
    Also, you argue that the DPS should not be getting hit by enemies if you have a tank, but you forgot to mention Tacticians
    Once you get THE boots a single tactician does not matter. When the tank aoe taunts the mobs and they are feared/rooted the tacticians do not use their power after he runs away. This is stupid and needs to get fixed.... but we already told Citan about that problem in another thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaffy View Post
    I do believe extra heart is potentially better than thick skin assuming the group's run is going incredibly well and the group is also very powerful, but by then I would argue you should be replacing the Battle Chemist with a different skill if you're really trying to be a perfectionist. One of battle chemistry's best traits is that it is incredibly powerful for under-prepared or disorganized groups, and thick skin is part of that.
    I think if you were really building a perfect group with 100% designer skills and what not you want a BC in there. Skin buffs, aoe heal... and even a golem who can cast a big heal when your health goes below a certain value (like when you get red texted from the 2nd tactician). The other thing to consider is that skin is +8 regen in combat... which you can stack with +9 more on chest, +5 more on legs, +8 on offhand/mainhand. So you can take a build that runs too much power and make the power drain not really be an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by ErDrick View Post
    You are both right and wrong.

    The mitigation you get from armor might as well not even exist, because it's gone in 3-5 seconds
    Bingo! And that's the issue with skin... your health can yo-yo up and down very easily with various heals but group armor restoration is a completely different thing. Having more health cap imho can be more valuable than mitigation when you don't have much mitigation in the first place - depending.

    Also I didn't build with extra heart in mind but I understand when someone asks for it.
    Last edited by Golliathe; 04-24-2019 at 10:57 PM.



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