Welcome to Project: Gorgon!


Project: Gorgon is a 3D fantasy MMORPG (massively-multiplayer online role-playing game) that features an immersive experience that allows the player to forge their own path through exploration and discovery. We won't be guiding you through a world on rails, and as a result there are many hidden secrets awaiting discovery. Project: Gorgon also features an ambitious skill based leveling system that bucks the current trend of pre-determined classes, thus allowing the player to combine skills in order to create a truly unique playing experience.

The Project: Gorgon development team is led by industry veteran Eric Heimburg. Eric has over a decade of experience working as a Senior and Lead Engineer, Developer, Designer and Producer on successful games such as Asheron’s Call 1 and 2, Star Trek Online and other successful Massively Multiplayer Online Games.



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  1. #51
    Banned spider91301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    There are some good discussions going on here and I'd like to keep them going! But I'd like to ask for more specifics. I don't get to participate in a lot of group combat recently. I don't have time -- I'm working 12-ish hours a day on the game, so even having time to solo is hard. So I rely a lot on feedback for group combat, and we really don't get a lot of feedback about grouping that's in a format I can act on.

    I say I don't group a lot, but I've managed to get in enough pick-up groups to know that grouping wasn't particularly difficult or engaging before we added monster crits. It was basically a cakewalk. (And it can still seem too easy, depending on the level range and group composition... but the crits at least make people pay more attention!) In fact, I do think the monster crit system has been good for the game because it changed the equation from "grouping is too easy" to "grouping is frustrating because it's too hard to control X, Y, Z things." This seems like a step forward to me. Maybe we can dig into more fundamental problems, the kind that we very rarely get feedback on.

    Monster crits were added because monsters were too predictable and they dealt too little damage. This solution addresses both problems! It's a first attempt at a solution, and I could fine-tune it (lowering crit damage, reducing the chance of chain crits, etc.), but I'm not sure that's the thing to do right now -- it really was added as a quick-fix so that I could look for other underlying problems. I'm not sure if we'll keep monster crits at all: we may want other solutions to the underlying problems.

    If you're unhappy about crits, the questions to answer are: Who was involved (levels, general combat skills type info), what did you fight, what did you do to counteract all that the surprise damage (I assume your team had sidebars full of healing/support abilities, for instance... so were those not good enough? Not fast enough to use?). I need to know how you tried to adapt to the problems, and why it was still unfairly difficult. Help me to understand the issues.

    And yes, there are situations where I won't be sympathetic: if you're trying to solo-kill a large number of monsters at once with a CC-mitigated "AoE pit", then I want the monsters to kill you a lot -- a lot more than they probably do now, actually. That's insanely dangerous and should generally result in your death. Were you trying to solo-kill (or duo-kill!) an Elite? Again, I actually want that to result in your death most of the time -- and will probably make those types of scenarios MORE difficult, not less.

    But if you're talking about a full group that gets wiped repeatedly because of crits, that's something I don't want to see. Maybe I just need to add a cooldown-timer so crits don't happen too often in a row... but I really suspect that'll hide deeper problems again. I want to dig in. Could you have countered the crits if you'd had more healing available? Are you carrying a bunch of weaker players in the group, and we need better group-composition tools? Or are you not focusing damage well, and the group needs better coordination tools? Better de-aggro? Is taunting just completely useless? Is healing too weak? Is monster detection too good?

    This provides an opportunity to improve the game's full-group issues... and I'm not even sure I know what all the fundamental full-group issues ARE. But if you have some clues, I would appreciate your insights!

    tldr: I can tweak the "band-aid fix" of crit damage -- but first I need to know it's not bandaging over a more serious problem.

    -------

    The OP from @Golliathe is a good example, and the reason I chose this thread -- those details about roots/mezzes are good insights and I would love to hear more discussion about those and related things -- things that need focus or improvement, either because they're too good or too irritating.

    RE: mezzes and DoTs: mezzes are supposed to ignore DoTs because, until recently, most DoTs lasted 15+ seconds, often lasting 30 seconds... making mezzes useless if even a single group member used DoT effects. Finding the right power curve for DoTs has been extremely challenging, and I didn't feel like DoTs needed the extra stigma of "don't use DoTs asshole, you'll break mezzes". Now that all DoTs are 12 secs or less, it starts to make more sense, but I still worry they would break too many mezzes.

    RE: monsters not picking a new target if they're rooted -- that's just crappy AI that I haven't tried to improve. I didn't really think too long about that case, because it opens a can of worms. If a monster changes targets because they're rooted, isn't that a general case of "I should change targets if my most-hated foe is unreachable"? They're the same thing, right? So where do I draw the line? If the monster is moving too slow to keep up (because the player has super-cranked movement speed), should the monster just attack somebody else nearby? Or are we talking about a specific hack for "monster is rooted = find a new target"? In that case wouldn't a 75% movement-slowdown be more effective than a full root? It gets weird. I don't know where to draw the line.

    RE: "overtaunt" -- I'd need lots more specifics here to be able to tell what's up.


    ------

    Thanks for your feedback. Also, I've mentioned this before, but since this is a contentious topic, I wanted to remind here: I really appreciate people who are able to separate their emotions from their feedback -- it makes it a LOT easier for me to process it if you aren't outraged at the same time. I'm only human, the game is made by humans, there are lots of mistakes and some of them are stupid mistakes we should have fixed a long time ago. But it's not too late -- we can fix them.

    The more you can give me info in a format like "my group did this thing, and we expected this result, but got this other thing", and the less "only a crazy idiot would think X is working", the more practical help you're giving!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaffy View Post
    I think you're confusing the mitigation you gain from armor with % based mitigation. Having 25 armor points gives you 1 flat direct mitigation, not 1% mitigation. That's why it isn't helpful at negating crits. It still works, it's just an incredibly small number compared to the damage you're taking.
    That also means the thick armor modifier from shield or the thick armor potion is not very useful. At 1000 armor it gives you only an additional 10 flat damage reduction.

    So just to give you an idea, if Pask crits a player for 1400 damage...
    A shield user with 1000 armor and thick armor would reduce the damage by 50.
    An unarmed user with 0 armor but the 18% physical damage reduction passive would reduce the damage by 252.

    This is why I keep talking about % based reduction and why it's so important, and why crits limits tank builds heavily. It simply scales way better than flat damage reduction when dealing with huge numbers. That's not to say armor is worthless. It is effectively doubling your life which is important for having a buffer against spike damage, but the damage reduction it offers might as well not exist at end game.

    This is my own 2 cents on why things are how they are based on all the facts filtered from the myths

    To know what crits do lets have a little history first on how crits came to be
    Long ago in a galaxy far far away before crits existed gk was getting to easy and people were bragging about going into gk aka gazkeep currently the only endgame for level 70+ players with full pocket armor and getting rich other low levels/ungeared players comlained about it and the admin said let their be Crits, so blame crits people that complained over it also fyi I still wear pocket armor in gk so pff load of good that did


    Armor provides 1 point of damage mitigation for every 25 points of armor remaining. says wiki so me having 1k armor assuming its at full will only negate 40 points of damage hmm now I see why crits work for enemyies but not us they have like 14k of armor compared to us which that would mitigate 560 damage no wonder crap in gazkeep which is the only endgame for level 70+ players can screw us just on rng one shots alone
    Crits in a nutshell do not bypass armor it only tears down our tissue paper barrer that we are limited having
    So essentially crits don't bypass armor the just say fk it and eat it becuase to even be effective for mitagation to counter crits you will nee 18k worth of armor and maintain it to close to full which is the main problem crits were built on a pre existing system that works for enemies but not players

    To sum it up crits aren't the problem the pre existing system for mitigation is in which case I have no fking idea how to fix it cuz I suck at coming up with solutions which leads us to our current problem and im pretty sure the devs are having the same issue in deciding on how to fix it so we cant really blame this on them cuz if even they cant make quick stable fix what right do we have to bitch about it all in all give the admins some time this will get resolved 1 way or the other also I will go full on rabid on anyone who decides to give the devs a hard time ingame joking about crap is ok but dissing them is another

    PS. at work so I dont have time to pretype this and proof read so meh however it turns out it turns out sorry if its to blunt
    Last edited by spider91301; 03-23-2019 at 06:29 AM.

  2. #52
    Member ErDrick's Avatar
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    Call me a sadist if you like, but I do Like the idea Mbaums suggested about giving mobs different effects for their rage attacks besides 'killing you".

    Some suggestions:

    -As mbaums said, short range mesmerize.
    -As mbaums also said, Resurrecting their own allies.
    -Healing themselves for 25%-50% or so(possibly with or without a knockback). Or an AE heal for a smaller side of that amount ( 25%).
    -Fully restoring their armor ( this might be better then self healing actually since that could potentially become an infinite self heal).
    -Hookshotting( or charging) whoever is lowest on the aggro list and putting them on top temporarily, say for 1-3 attacks (or one big attack)..then resuming normal behavior.
    -Temporary evasion buff, high amount but short duration..like 50% / 5-10 seconds.
    -Fearing you( maybe an AE fear from a boss...short duration).
    -Charming a player temporarily turning them into a pet.... actually this would be too insane unless stats were changed under the hood to be akin to the mob you're fighting( as in you hit like an npc while charmed).
    -Call in an actual pet of their own, some mobs already do this though I "think" ... GK mage lieutenants?
    -Strip your armor instantly no matter it's current value.
    -Temporarily negate your food buffs ( or all buffs) like anti magic shell in a certain radius, not dispell them though, just temporary suppress them.
    -Become Immune to ranged attacks /magic attacks/ or melee attacks for a short duration ( depending on mob type).
    -Increase "call for help radius" for a few seconds.
    -Cause everyone on their aggro list to immediately turn 180 degrees.
    -Immediately reset their aggro list. ( dropping all hate except 1 point on anyone they already hated).
    -Drain a large amount of power ( or all of it) from current target.
    -Randomize aggro, as in keep the same numbers but assign them randomly to all players on hate list.
    -Forget the person that they hate the most. ( erase hate from highest threat).

    Even better, give mobs a pool of a few of these abilities and have them select one randomly when rage is full... so we don't just say "oh these things drain your power, be ready for that".


    Any of this would be more entertaining and more chaotic then just being killed outright instantly. Also these are just random ideas literally off the top of my head with zero forethought.... Citan is much more evil then I am and can probably think of even crazier things. I could also go on but you get the idea right?
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Also, I feel like armor is "pretty fucked up" as it currently stands and needs to be changed drastically( you will probably not like my suggestion though, and that's okay), but the current system isn't really working.

    If it was up to me though, I'd get rid of the armor bar completely and increase player health by a large margin.. so if you have 40 mitigation from armor you always have that mitigation. This would actually make armor value noticeably better then pockets, because one of the biggest reasons pockets are better ( besides inventory space ofc) is because armor is much harder to restore then health is, and once it's gone it mostly stays gone and might as well not even have existed at that point ( but you always have your pockets). It would also be drastically easier for us to tell exactly what's killing us, 2 numbers popping up at once with no combat log currently makes that difficult unless you record it and go frame by frame to see. Of course, this would also apply to mobs, as in they also keep their mitigation. Things that damage armor directly ( like acid) could be a temporary mitigation debuff similar to rotskin instead. I don't feel like having 40 mitigation permanently from 1000 armor would be gamebreaking though. I am making this suggestion specifically because it seems like it would be a lot simpler then rebalancing everything from a code point of view ( to be fair though, I actually have no clue about that ), and I'm not really sure how you can salvage the armor bar otherwise. Not to mention armor / health and heals for armor / health are needlessly complicated atm. There is a difference between difficulty and complexity just for the sake of complexity. The difficulty can remain the same ( although it will actually be harder I imagine) but you won't have to constantly watch 3 bars, just health / power.

    Along with that you could change armor patch to a different skill entirely, like remove indirect damage effects on self. Or, as much as I hate this idea... make armor have durability( like buckle artistry) and armor patch fixes that as a crafting skill.

    I am also still in favor of increasing mob health, but if you change armor in this way for mobs and players...they'd have it. ( doubling my health would get me 1200 or so, doubling a GK troopers health would be adding thousands and again, keeping their base mitigation so the health they have goes farther) Soloing elites would remain out of reach for the most part because...power.

    I been up all night and it's past noon now, so if these are stupid ideas feel free to call me out on it.

    P.S. Why does battlechem thick-skin have worthless 56 point heals per 20 seconds as two of it's modifiers instead of crushing damage reduction?
    P.P.S. I still cant tell why an Onkara debilitator which I can tank indefinately ( tested it, can literally tank them forever or until I get bored) drops me so quickly when any other mob joins the fray. If anyone knows please enlighten me.

    Thanks for reading!
    Last edited by ErDrick; 03-23-2019 at 10:12 AM.

  3. #53
    Member ErDrick's Avatar
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    Or keep the armor bar for UI reasons but still increase health( to compensate for losing the "health bar" that armor gives us now), and have specific attacks like acid still reduce armor ( and be restored by armor patch) but regular attacks not touch it whatsoever.

    In hindsight this seems like it might be a better idea.

    And again feel free to call me out if these ideas are dumb, promise I won't get upset over it !
    Last edited by ErDrick; 03-23-2019 at 10:44 AM.

  4. #54
    Banned spider91301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErDrick View Post
    Or keep the armor bar for UI reasons but still increase health( to compensate for losing the "health bar" that armor gives us now), and have specific attacks like acid still reduce armor ( and be restored by armor patch) but regular attacks not touch it whatsoever.

    In hindsight this seems like it might be a better idea.

    And again feel free to call me out if these ideas are dumb, promise I won't get upset over it !
    Yeah thats one way or make 2 separate combat systems for mitigation one for enemies enemies and a tweaked version for us probably not as simple as it sounds with coding but meh I got nothing else

  5. #55
    Junior Member Pugmak's Avatar
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    Been doing raids in games since EQ pre-Kunark expansion.

    They're almost all rote by the numbers setups. Boss mob x does y so suit up and be ready for that. Then it's just an endurance test.

    I really like the concept above about a whole range of rage attacks available to randomly fire.

    That would go a long way to keep the fights fresh and interesting.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Golliathe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErDrick View Post
    Call me a sadist if you like, but I do Like the idea Mbaums suggested about giving mobs different effects for their rage attacks besides 'killing you".

    Some suggestions:

    -Hookshotting( or charging) whoever is lowest on the aggro list and putting them on top temporarily, say for 1-3 attacks (or one big attack)..then resuming normal behavior.
    -Temporary evasion buff, high amount but short duration..like 50% / 5-10 seconds.
    -Fearing you( maybe an AE fear from a boss...short duration).
    -Charming a player temporarily turning them into a pet.... actually this would be too insane unless stats were changed under the hood to be akin to the mob you're fighting( as in you hit like an npc while charmed).
    -Strip your armor instantly no matter it's current value.
    -Temporarily negate your food buffs ( or all buffs) like anti magic shell in a certain radius, not dispell them though, just temporary suppress them.
    -Become Immune to ranged attacks /magic attacks/ or melee attacks for a short duration ( depending on mob type).
    -Cause everyone on their aggro list to immediately turn 180 degrees.
    -Immediately reset their aggro list. ( dropping all hate except 1 point on anyone they already hated).
    -Randomize aggro, as in keep the same numbers but assign them randomly to all players on hate list.
    -Forget the person that they hate the most. ( erase hate from highest threat).

    Most of these options would make for super shitty play. Fighting monsters should be challenging not annoying. As an example Jack giving George push is annoying and pointless; having push on a mob who can launch you off a platform presents a real challenge (fall to your death into a pile of mobs).

    What are the main mob types in Gk?
    Trooper, Infiltrator, LT, mage LT, Tactician, Worg. That's enough of a list to have each one do a special rage thing and call it a day.

    "-Fully restoring their armor ( this might be better then self healing actually since that could potentially become an infinite self heal)."

    That's the only neat option and it would be fine for one mob type or boss.

    Quote Originally Posted by ErDrick View Post

    Also, I feel like armor is "pretty fucked up" as it currently stands and needs to be changed drastically( you will probably not like my suggestion though, and that's okay), but the current system isn't really working.

    If it was up to me though, I'd get rid of the armor bar completely and increase player health by a large margin.. so if you have 40 mitigation from armor you always have that mitigation. This would actually make armor value noticeably better then pockets, because one of the biggest reasons pockets are better ( besides inventory space ofc) is because armor is much harder to restore then health is, and once it's gone it mostly stays gone and might as well not even have existed at that point ( but you always have your pockets).

    Along with that you could change armor patch to a different skill entirely, like remove indirect damage effects on self. Or, as much as I hate this idea... make armor have durability( like buckle artistry) and armor patch fixes that as a crafting skill.

    I am also still in favor of increasing mob health, but if you change armor in this way for mobs and players...they'd have it. ( doubling my health would get me 1200 or so, doubling a GK troopers health would be adding thousands and again, keeping their base mitigation so the health they have goes farther) Soloing elites would remain out of reach for the most part because...power.
    1. Buckle artistry armor having a health meter sucks - please never do this for armor (and remove it from BA).
    2. Armor would make SO much more sense if you had like 60% mitigation for an armored tank with full armor. The challenge then becomes keeping armor high. Having an always flat high bonus is boring (and makes unarmed way too op when it is already the best tank choice). You probably think crits are boring because all they do is damage you. This would be fine if there was a sort of mini-game to keep the tanks armor high.
    3. One problem this game has is that lvl 70 cloth has like 110 armor and the tanky snail armor has like 80 armor. Makes a lot of sense right? But that snail armor has low values of flat mitigation. I could see a change where each level of snail armor has +1% mitigation per piece (increasing by 1% per tier per piece or something) with lowish overall armor. And then for metal armor you could do a thing where it has more armor but no mitigation. Both end up at the same place with balanced stats but different have a different combat refresh (this would of course assume that armor just became a % dmg reduction based on how much you had).

    4. Part of the problem with pocket gear is that 2 pieces of armor give you like 40-60 inv slots. What if we changed pockets? Maybe let head/chest/legs/hands/feet contribute to pockets? Example: the hat could be If worn with pocket chest, doubles chest pocket slots. The boots could do the same for legs and possibly hands (which would affect your belt). Make pockets require 5 or 6 armor slots. Make them need to be a matched set to be most effective. We could also have the pocket belt increase all slots by +2 prior to doubling.

    Say for example you only get +10 inv with a pocket chest and your hat doubles it. The hat AND chest need to have the "enchant" slot wasted for pockets.

    that would make a pocket set be: 10+2 (2x), 10+2 (2x), 8+2 (2x). So that would mean you get 68 slots but you don't get an extra power slot for those areas.

    Then again maybe if cloth gives 100 armor.... leather should be like 150 and plate/snail should be like 300 armor. The short version is that pockets are too appealing and do not take enough away from the armor. Sadly thats +1 thing Citan needs to spend time fixing.

    5. I think personally it's dumb to have some attacks be armor only.... especially when you look at competing spells and they do like the same damage but also damage health. I could maybe understand for example if the acid attack for BC did 2k damage (modded) but only affected armor and the regular 2 spells did 1k damage (modded) but worked for armor and health.

    Quote Originally Posted by ErDrick View Post
    P.S. Why does battlechem thick-skin have worthless 56 point heals per 20 seconds as two of it's modifiers instead of crushing damage reduction?
    That's a super great question. I'd love to see bc flat mitigations changed to something like 5% dmg mitigation per mod type. Maybe the healing from the mods could be changed to crushing and then have the level of the spell have some built in healing/second (that isnt complete crap).

    Quote Originally Posted by ErDrick View Post
    P.P.S. I still cant tell why an Onkara debilitator which I can tank indefinately ( tested it, can literally tank them forever or until I get bored) drops me so quickly when any other mob joins the fray. If anyone knows please enlighten me.
    What food did you have on? Is this a regen issue?

  7. #57
    Senior Member Golliathe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErDrick View Post
    Or keep the armor bar for UI reasons but still increase health( to compensate for losing the "health bar" that armor gives us now), and have specific attacks like acid still reduce armor ( and be restored by armor patch) but regular attacks not touch it whatsoever.
    This sounds like you have cake and are getting to eat it too.

    How do you keep an armor value and not have it buffer into health? Is armor giving a fixed mitigation % now?


    Armor only reducing attacks are rare. This would make keeping your armor value high a joke and require no change.


    It would be the same song and dance with unarmed player just killing GK mobs solo with psych secondary. Isn't the goal to kinda prevent that without ruining the content for groups?

  8. #58
    Member ErDrick's Avatar
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    To answer your points and questions Golliathe.

    About those rage attack ideas being super shitty play :
    Citan said his goal was to make combat more challenging because it can be a snoozefest ( and I'm glad he posted, because understanding his intent helps a lot here). The thing is, what he did was give them the ability to critical hit and current rage attacks that "do damage" now have to a chance to instantly kill you from full health and armor. The point is to get away from stuff instantly killing you but maintain a challenge. ( we are mostly talking about elites here btw, aka group content). For non-elites ( especially bears) rage criticals have to go or be severely toned down, period. Being instantly killed really isn't preventable and has no counterplay for most people. Personally I think they are okay ideas, but could be better ( they are all better then HaHa you are instantly dead, though).. the biggest problem I'd think would be coding all of that shit, which stops development on other stuff while he is working on it, so optimally I'd rather see criticals get a severe rework, but felt like I'd at least try to offer another approach, because he has a point about regular encounters being on the easy side ( when you aren't getting swarmed by 5-10 things, anyways). If people have other ideas how to fix this that is great, I never said any of my ideas need to happen, they are just ideas for discussion( but "something" def needs to happen).

    Durability on stuff does indeed suck, I would hate it. After rethinking that line of reasoning I added another short post with another idea of how to make armor worth something( but I did that long before you posted your reply, it was there and readable). 60% base mitigation from armor on a tank would be completely insane though, nothing would scratch you ever( except prask rage-critical). Also that would require a total rework of monster armor because how would that work for them? Also armor heals in that case would be extremely overpowered, a heal for 300 is a heal for 300, an armor heal for 300 if you had 60% mitigation would give you MUCH more then 300 effective more health.

    Crafted cloth chest and legs actually gives you 20 pockets per for 40 total by the way. I do agree the base armor values may be off though, especially for snail and the stuff that's supposed to be tanky (plate). The issue isn't that it's so much better, it's that armor value in general really means almost nothing for players. If you had 2,000 armor prask would still critical rage on you for 1320 damage, instead of his base damage of 1400, considering players cant even get 2,000 armor ( and if they could it wouldn't matter anyways really). So if armor doesn't really do anything their is really no downside to losing a few hundred of it for 40 more inventory. Now, if armor wasn't part of your health, but was just armor by itself ( and you kept it except for when specific attacks lowered it) then it would always be meaningful. Always having 40 mitigation means something, having 40 mitigation for the first hit, 20 for the second hit, and zero for the rest of the fight.. is why it's nearly worthless.

    I think in that light it would sort of still make sense for certain monsters or abilities to lower your armor and thus overall mitigation (if it was changed the 2nd way I suggested that is) and for you to be able to do the same thing to them via acid and stuff. The part I didn't add because I thought it was obvious, is that modifiers for healing armor would all be changed to health instead , with a longer base health bar representing what we would lose from losing the armor bar as part of our health ( the way it works now). And the reason I suggested the health increase is because it would require less rebalancing of mob damage ( I mean if we just lost the armor bar completely with no extra health added, just about everything would 1-3 hit kill you with it's regular attacks). The only ability that would actually "heal" armor damage in that case would be armor patching. To be more clear I also meant that as in it would apply to both players AND monsters, and the simplest way to do it would be to double everything's health pool ( including ours) and leave armor at it's current value, but just make it untouchable except to certain skills that specifically destroy armor.

    For your other point about armor reducing attacks being rare / having your cake and eating it too...we are talking about something that AT MOST is giving the best geared players 50 damage mitigation ( assuming they get to 1250 armor, which no one I've ever seen has), not 50% but -50 damage per hit when some stuff can rage on you for 1200-1400 at the point when you actually have armor values between 600-1,000. And it would definitely stop me from soloing high level elites, if a GK mob had 20k health and every attack I did on it was reduced by 240 damage per hit due to them having 6,000 armor, I would either run out of power or just die from running out of ways to heal myself before they did.

    As far as battlechem, yes I would like to see higher tiers of mitigation abilities all be percentile based instead of flat number based, what I meant specifically though is that there are 2 mods for "reduces slashing damage by xx" and 2 more for "reduces piercing damage by xx" but Nothing for crushing and instead we inexplicably have that worthless heal per 20 seconds.

    As for rahu Onkara debilitators, I am using top tier food, (and sometimes battlechem's thick skin, they deal piercing damage which I have 2 mods for that reduces it on top of the base amount). What I am seeing is that I can be fighting 2-3 mobs there and I'm able to keep up with the damage I'm taking easily.. well I shouldn't say easily, compared to how it used to be it's definitely not easy , but as soon as a debilitator sees me fighting and comes to help his friends in that scenario, I die almost instantly and nothing I can seem to do stops it from happening. A debilitator as far as I can tell, hits for about 60 damage and 100ish rage.. (or maybe that's 200 and i was seeing 100 to health and 100 to armor, but either way that's not explaining why I'm dropping from it) and a damage over time effect for 9 points which can stack up to 3x, but rarely does. I think something is going on under the hood with those guys that doesn't show up in your buff window..I'm not sure what it is but it could be something like a healing debuff, something that would explain why a guy that can barely harm me suddenly spells death when other mobs are involved. I still have no clue though what they are doing.

    I am glad you made these points though because it gave me a chance to explain myself better, and even if you still disagree it's fine, it's just food for thought for both players and devs to think about or add better suggestions to.
    Last edited by ErDrick; 03-25-2019 at 10:19 AM.

  9. #59
    Member ErDrick's Avatar
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    More feedback on my last 3 posts would be great though, we know that Citan is checking this thread, this is our chance to make some good points or ideas that have a chance to be implemented (or to explain why my ideas are bad so they are not implemented inadvertently). I am fine with either scenario there, I don't think I'm some sort of super genius and my ideas are the best ideas. In fact once in the past I had a very bad idea that DID get implemented temporarily and it unexpectedly turned us into immortal gods, that's the sort of thing I definitely want to avoid happening again.

    Yaffy pretty much showed perfect evidence of what's wrong with rage criticals, so I'm not sure that aspect needs much more feedback. Keep in mind that just because he showed these examples in level 70 content doesn't mean it isn't an issue at every level though , I'm fairly certain it is! So, we really don't need more proof that this is bad, but can definitely use some possible solutions which will still maintain a challenge.

    I just figured we might as well discuss armor while were discussing crits, because they're relevant to each other. And a lot of people that understand game mechanics solidly can (probably?) agree that armor in it's current state is not working well. It does something, but it doesn't feel like it does what it's supposed to do, or so many people wouldn't wear pockets. Armor is great when you have it, but after it's depleted it is not so great.

    I like the idea of armor being worth %mitigation instead of flat mitigation, but that would be insanely hard to balance not only now, but all the way to level 125. The best ideas are probably the ones that will require the least amount of work for the developers.

    Increasing base armor values on heavier armor types would also be another possible solution, but also has it's own problems ( and doesn't touch on the problem of depleted armor leaves you a sitting duck waiting to be one hit killed anyways). Having too much base armor would make you take so little damage you'd be in very little danger of losing it though ( aka boring aka what Citan wants to avoid).

    To me, this (my idea of mostly removing the armor bar from being part of the health bar) seemed like a decent middle-ground solution that requires less dev time. Also since several people are in favor of increasing mob health...this does that both directly and indirectly through mitigation( since they keep their armor).

    I still am 100% for you calling out any aspects of this that are not well thought out or are downright stupid though, this isn't about them using "my ideas" It's about Improving the game. They may very well read all of this( including whatever other people have to say) and come up with their own idea which is better, but more angles to look at it from I'm sure would be helpful to the developers.
    Last edited by ErDrick; 03-25-2019 at 09:48 PM.

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    Senior Member Golliathe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErDrick View Post

    About those rage attack ideas being super shitty play :
    Citan said his goal was to make combat more challenging because it can be a snoozefest...
    This is one of the reasons I mentioned overtaunt and cheese tactics. Sure it's fun to clear the dungeon faster but you are basically exploiting the content for faster drops.

    Quote Originally Posted by ErDrick View Post
    60% base mitigation from armor on a tank would be completely insane though, nothing would scratch you ever( except prask rage-critical). Also that would require a total rework of monster armor because how would that work for them? Also armor heals in that case would be extremely overpowered, a heal for 300 is a heal for 300, an armor heal for 300 if you had 60% mitigation would give you MUCH more then 300 effective more health.
    60% mitigation might be too high for this game but you will see plenty of other games where tanks go much higher with mitigation values (if the game uses a trinity system). I'll come back to this in a minute. Instead of tweaking health values what if enemies had a similar style (not the same scale) system where they got damage resistance based on their armor?

    Quote Originally Posted by ErDrick View Post
    Crafted cloth chest and legs actually gives you 20 pockets per for 40 total by the way. I do agree the base armor values may be off though, especially for snail and the stuff that's supposed to be tanky (plate). The issue isn't that it's so much better, it's that armor value in general really means almost nothing for players.
    You can make generic armor with 28+ slots. The point I was trying to make is that 40 slots for 2 pieces of armor is kinda messed up. What if you needed to wear 5 pieces of armor to get +50 slots. You end up with a net of +45 slots but are required to wear 5 pieces. That's massively more restrictive and that too is the point I was trying to make.

    As for armor being noting it is important to mention armor because honestly as it stands being a tank in this game means unarmed+________. Overall that seems stupid to me when you consider that there are supposed to be multiple viable options. Nobody will make the informed decision to choose poison when darkness is so much better (see above for anyone skimming).

    Quote Originally Posted by ErDrick View Post
    I think in that light it would sort of still make sense for certain monsters or abilities to lower your armor and thus overall mitigation (if it was changed the 2nd way I suggested that is) and for you to be able to do the same thing to them via acid and stuff. The part I didn't add because I thought it was obvious, is that modifiers for healing armor would all be changed to health instead , with a longer base health bar representing what we would lose from losing the armor bar as part of our health ( the way it works now). And the reason I suggested the health increase is because it would require less rebalancing of mob damage ( I mean if we just lost the armor bar completely with no extra health added, just about everything would 1-3 hit kill you with it's regular attacks). The only ability that would actually "heal" armor damage in that case would be armor patching. To be more clear I also meant that as in it would apply to both players AND monsters, and the simplest way to do it would be to double everything's health pool ( including ours) and leave armor at it's current value, but just make it untouchable except to certain skills that specifically destroy armor.
    If you change armor to a system where your armor value gives a % mitigation there's no reason to change abilities that restore armor other than small value tweaks.

    You start the rigid like steel and as the fight goes on you become soft like butter unless you keep your armor high.


    Quote Originally Posted by ErDrick View Post
    As for rahu Onkara debilitators...
    I've seen this at various points in the game with different characters. Fight one and you are invincible. Fight two and you die or almost die. This is why some people want a combat log but I think that would take a crapton of work.



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