Welcome to Project: Gorgon!


Project: Gorgon is a 3D fantasy MMORPG (massively-multiplayer online role-playing game) that features an immersive experience that allows the player to forge their own path through exploration and discovery. We won't be guiding you through a world on rails, and as a result there are many hidden secrets awaiting discovery. Project: Gorgon also features an ambitious skill based leveling system that bucks the current trend of pre-determined classes, thus allowing the player to combine skills in order to create a truly unique playing experience.

The Project: Gorgon development team is led by industry veteran Eric Heimburg. Eric has over a decade of experience working as a Senior and Lead Engineer, Developer, Designer and Producer on successful games such as Asheron’s Call 1 and 2, Star Trek Online and other successful Massively Multiplayer Online Games.



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  1. #41
    Banned spider91301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaffy View Post
    So just to give people an idea of how strong crits are, I went and threw myself at some enemies to see exactly how much damage they do. Instead of talking about specific situations, I think it'll just be easier to look at the raw numbers and see what players have to do to survive them.

    Here's General Pask:


    Here's a Gazluk Trooper:


    Pask's normal attack crits hit for 740, his rage crits for 1400.
    Trooper's normal attack crits for 448, their rage crits for 1028
    Infiltrator's normal attacks crit for 496, their rage crits for 920 (Plus 222 in poison).

    So outside of percentage based mitigation, a player needs to have a combined total of health and armor equal to the crit+1 with at least half of that being health. That means to survive Pasks' rage crit you need to have at least 701 HP and 700 armor, for troopers you need to have at least 515 HP and 514 armor, and for Infiltrators you need to have 461 health and 460 armor (And then be ready for the poison).

    Don't even bother considering flat damage mitigation, as you can see vs the trooper I had almost full armor, and all it did was reduce the damage by 16. That's a 1.56% damage reduction. Compare that to the 20% damage reduction you get from Meditation 39 and it's easy to see why every tank needs to be running it.

    So now I'd like to ask the devs, are those numbers around where they should be? Those life/armor values are the absolute bare minimum to survive one single attack. If you consider a second attack, then depending on the mob you need to add another 125-300 HP and armor to survive two, depending on whether it crits or not. Otherwise you need to be healed for 125-300 HP and armor right after getting hit by a rage crit or you risk death.

    Also, just in case if some smarty decides to point out that I was naked vs Pask and of course I should die, I would like to point out that unless if I had over 1725 armor AND full HP I would have died anyways because 700 of that damage is going towards my health even with armor.
    Yaffy might as well be the king of actually caring to take the time out of his day to break this down into simplified data to actually take time out his day and ingame time I will admit to dam lazy to learn how to make gifs and videos mad respect for you dude

    PS: tempted to learn how to make videos and make a 1 shot montage with troll music lol then again probably wont cuz im lazy
    Last edited by spider91301; 03-19-2019 at 10:35 PM.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Golliathe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaffy View Post
    Also, just in case if some smarty decides to point out that I was naked vs Pask and of course I should die, I would like to point out that unless if I had over 1725 armor AND full HP I would have died anyways because 700 of that damage is going towards my health even with armor.
    I'd like to ask a simple question at this point. Why are crits ever ignoring armor? I've never seen a balanced game do this.


    The tanky character who invests a great deal of his gear resources to have armor should never have that benefit just thrown out the window. But currently that is what crits seem to be doing. There are already mechanics in the game as a 'wakeup' as we already have poison and pierce attacks that go straight to health.

    Oh you have more than 1000 armor? Well that's too bad; maybe you should have picked a different class whose abilities I can't 100% bypass.


    I put this on the level of bad design with diablo 2. From day 1 they made a promise that there would be no fire/ice/lit/etc immune enemies that were part of the first game. This was true until they added a dlc and they said well we changed our mind. Sorry, the character you invtested 200-800 hours playing is now worthless (because if you only dealt ice damage you have no chance at killing an enemy that is 100% resistant to ice - oh and by the way you might have to clear a few hundred trash mobs to get to the elite boss that actually can drop loot only to find you have a 0% chance of killing it).


    As it stands right now it seems clear armor is pretty worthless compared to other defenses when it comes to surviving critical hits. What seems to be valuable (and what allows people to solo) are buffs that allow them to take % reduced damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mbaums View Post
    The devs wanted details: When I tank I use the thick armor potions and meditation buff and about 660 HP. My unarmed/psych build is low armor by most standards (572) needs time to get started, and absolutely needs me to get off ‘but I love you’ and ‘tell me about your mother’ for -25% and -32 dmg to the big hitters.
    So if this discussion is about high level balancing of 'tanking' in general I want to call foul on the thick armor potion.

    Where is the 'kung fu' potion : 18% of all Slashing, Piercing, and Crushing damage you take is mitigated and added to the damage done by your next Punch or Jab. (normally you would find this text prefaced with: While using Unarmed skill). Essentially this would just be a 18% slashing, piercing, and crushing damage reduction buff. This is the special thing unarmed gets; it would be ridiculous to allow other players to get this from a potion. But you allow everyone to get thick armor. Why?


    If you want to play with shield mods you use a shield. But here drink this potion and you have have shield's literal best treasure mod (let us consider a less critty world where you don't need avoid death to survive random rage crits). That doesn't seem right.

    Moreover you can't drink this potion and have any benefit when playing shield. Um what?

    So looking at the math the shield mod does this:

    If you have 1000 armor you have 40% damage mitigation.

    If you have 1000 armor with the shield mod you have 50% mitigation

    If you could have double thick armor you would have 66% mitigation.


    That might sound supremely overpowered but remember that once your armor goes down significantly (like the first two hits) you start losing mitigation extremely quickly.


    I also want to point out that just recently you removed the ability to have fire mods (without needing fire magic active). Why? Because it was abusive and let people get an insane dps boost without having fire magic active.

    This potion lets you get an insane defensive boost and it is literally opening the door for people to solo.

    What's the point of playing shield if I can get the best treasure effect of shield from a potion
    ?

    Clearly the more optimal path would be to play a tank, not use a shield AND get the benefit of thick armor.


    Let us remember too that 'kung fu' % mitigation doesn't ever run out. It is always there as a damage reduction modifier. But sure as hell armor does run out and offers nothing when it is depleted.


    In order to achieve fair play (pick one):

    1) allow thick potion to stack with thick armor granted via shield mod
    2) start making kung fu potions drop (please dont do this - it would be so damn broken)
    3) Make thick armor potion have no effect if you have any % mitigation active (like from unarmed)
    4) Make thick armor potion last 2 minutes (aka use this before a boss fight)
    5) this might be the most dangerous one but best for balance overall - limit % damage reduction
    Last edited by Golliathe; 03-20-2019 at 07:51 AM.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Niph's Avatar
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    Crits don't ignore armor. Armor just doesn't mitigate the extra damage because it's already mitigated the "base" part of the crit damage.

    If you get hit for normal damage for 100 and your armor mitigates 50 of it, you receive 50 damage after mitigation (split as 25 to health and 25 to armor).

    If you get hit by a crit for 200, your armor still mitigates 50 of it, you receive 150 damage after mitigation, split as 75 to health and 75 to armor.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Golliathe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niph View Post
    Crits don't ignore armor. Armor just doesn't mitigate the extra damage because it's already mitigated the "base" part of the crit damage.
    There's already quite a lengthy discussion about how essentially armor isn't doing the job of protecting vs crits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niph View Post
    If you get hit for normal damage for 100 and your armor mitigates 50 of it, you receive 50 damage after mitigation (split as 25 to health and 25 to armor).

    If you get hit by a crit for 200, your armor still mitigates 50 of it, you receive 150 damage after mitigation, split as 75 to health and 75 to armor.
    If I take a crit for 200 why would my armor mitigate 50 of it instead of 100? Should the damage split not be 50 to health and armor?
    Why is armor not doing a full reduction on the front end? If I get hit for 200 should my armor not be mitigating 100 of it?

    Most games do armor as a *poof* this % of the damage just goes away and is never applied.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Yaffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golliathe View Post
    If you want to play with shield mods you use a shield. But here drink this potion and you have have shield's literal best treasure mod (let us consider a less critty world where you don't need avoid death to survive random rage crits). That doesn't seem right.

    Moreover you can't drink this potion and have any benefit when playing shield. Um what?

    So looking at the math the shield mod does this:

    If you have 1000 armor you have 40% damage mitigation.

    If you have 1000 armor with the shield mod you have 50% mitigation

    If you could have double thick armor you would have 66% mitigation.
    I think you're confusing the mitigation you gain from armor with % based mitigation. Having 25 armor points gives you 1 flat direct mitigation, not 1% mitigation. That's why it isn't helpful at negating crits. It still works, it's just an incredibly small number compared to the damage you're taking.
    That also means the thick armor modifier from shield or the thick armor potion is not very useful. At 1000 armor it gives you only an additional 10 flat damage reduction.

    So just to give you an idea, if Pask crits a player for 1400 damage...
    A shield user with 1000 armor and thick armor would reduce the damage by 50.
    An unarmed user with 0 armor but the 18% physical damage reduction passive would reduce the damage by 252.

    This is why I keep talking about % based reduction and why it's so important, and why crits limits tank builds heavily. It simply scales way better than flat damage reduction when dealing with huge numbers. That's not to say armor is worthless. It is effectively doubling your life which is important for having a buffer against spike damage, but the damage reduction it offers might as well not exist at end game.
    Last edited by Yaffy; 03-20-2019 at 10:32 AM.

  6. #46
    Banned spider91301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaffy View Post
    I think you're confusing the mitigation you gain from armor with % based mitigation. Having 25 armor points gives you 1 flat direct mitigation, not 1% mitigation. That's why it isn't helpful at negating crits. It still works, it's just an incredibly small number compared to the damage you're taking.
    That also means the thick armor modifier from shield or the thick armor potion is not very useful. At 1000 armor it gives you only an additional 10 flat damage reduction.

    So just to give you an idea, if Pask crits a player for 1400 damage...
    A shield user with 1000 armor and thick armor would reduce the damage by 50.
    An unarmed user with 0 armor but the 18% physical damage reduction passive would reduce the damage by 252.

    This is why I keep talking about % based reduction and why it's so important, and why crits limits tank builds heavily. It simply scales way better than flat damage reduction when dealing with huge numbers. That's not to say armor is worthless. It is effectively doubling your life which is important for having a buffer against spike damage, but the damage reduction it offers might as well not exist at end game.

    Which is the only reason I use 1k armor because my build uses it to heal if mitigation does shit might as well make my tissue paper barrer armor useful and heal my ass faster then I can use a first aid kit honestly if your not using armor for a quick heal because mitagation does shit then your better off having 500-600 armor and investing in burst evasion not like 1k armor is going to save your ass from a 1 shot the only reason I will live is cuz of shield mods avoid death 101% any other tanks are kinda boned when it comes to rage crits





    PS. Imagen when level 100 uncaps come out I forsee my future being in gk 24/7 with level 120 pocket gear lol will laugh
    Last edited by spider91301; 03-21-2019 at 01:13 AM.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Golliathe's Avatar
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    Wouldn't the game make more sense though with 25 armor giving 1% mitigation?

    I suspect crits might actually make the game interesting if that were the case. As a tank you would need to keep your armor up to make sure you don't take too much damage.

    In the case of Pask with a 1400 critical vs 1000 armor you would take 700 damage. That would only be 350 damage to armor and health (assuming that was the first hit in the fight). But most likely it won't be the first hit.

    In other words this actively gives you and your party a means to make encounters easy if you are prepared.

    1. Control the boss's rage to try and prevent rage attacks (and the possibility of rage criticals)
    2. The tank must keep his armor high so that he doesn't take too much damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaffy View Post
    I think you're confusing the mitigation you gain from armor with % based mitigation. Having 25 armor points gives you 1 flat direct mitigation, not 1% mitigation. That's why it isn't helpful at negating crits. It still works, it's just an incredibly small number compared to the damage you're taking.
    That also means the thick armor modifier from shield or the thick armor potion is not very useful. At 1000 armor it gives you only an additional 10 flat damage reduction.

    So just to give you an idea, if Pask crits a player for 1400 damage...
    A shield user with 1000 armor and thick armor would reduce the damage by 50.
    An unarmed user with 0 armor but the 18% physical damage reduction passive would reduce the damage by 252.
    Well I've never seen a system with armor being so nearly worthless. It's completely ridiculous to have armor be so incredibly weak especially given that it is ablative and gets worse as the fight progresses.

    In other words unarmed is the only tanking ability worth a damn in the game at present. That's pretty stupid if you ask me. What were we saying before about when there was only one option? Unarmed needs to be in line with every other tanking option (so nerf it to oblivion or buff everything else).

  8. #48
    Senior Member Mbaums's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golliathe View Post
    So if this discussion is about high level balancing of 'tanking' in general I want to call foul on the thick armor potion...
    The mod itself is strong, and the potion is worth having but if you do not kill in GK regularly, you won't get enough of them to keep it active at all time. I only use it because my group in discord usually throws me the potions. And I in turn throw the potion at whoever is currently tanking.

    The mod is great for people starting in GK, but I pick the expensive route vs giving up a mod in my shield build. When we are at level 100, if there are no orcs at the end game, I simply won't be able to gather enough of those potions to use them (without directly farming them). To some degree I think the game should reward players who prepare for an environment, but I disagree when that preparation becomes mandatory.


    You argue some things that I disagree with enough to spell out. The first is that there are no advantages to shield players using the thick armor potion when this flies in the face of my use. In the next breathe (with what I read as a condescending tone, with one of the 3 “why?” sentences) you ask for a potion to mimic an unarmed mod. This being suggested here and in your 5-suggestions makes your whole argument weak because it appears you don’t care about the mod being in a potion, but instead just take a hyper critical stance against the potion or the ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Golliathe View Post
    Clearly the more optimal path would be to play a tank, not use a shield AND get the benefit of thick armor.
    I believe you have no understanding of the shield ability while tanking. The AoE taunt, speed, fire resist, numerous passives and best-single target stun makes it a uniquely strong class and you overlook this completely simply because orcs drop a potion.

    /*late edit addition*/
    Even though we have disagreements, I still want to thank you for this thread because it brought up many views that I think are important for the Devs. Beta is the time for big balance tweaks, and I generally have a roll with the punches attitude on most gameplay aspects, so I'm just eager to roll with whatever comes.
    Last edited by Mbaums; 03-21-2019 at 07:03 AM. Reason: dont wana seem like a meanie

  9. #49
    Senior Member Golliathe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mbaums View Post
    The mod itself is strong, and the potion is worth having but if you do not kill in GK regularly, you won't get enough of them to keep it active at all time. I only use it because my group in discord usually throws me the potions. And I in turn throw the potion at whoever is currently tanking.
    The error in this logic then is that kung fu potions would be fair and balanced as nobody would easily be able to have enough to have them active at all time without being constantly fed.

    Part of the point I was trying to make with the discussion of the kung fu potion is that it is a dangerous idea to give a class defining ability on a consumable item.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mbaums View Post

    You argue some things that I disagree with enough to spell out. The first is that there are no advantages to shield players using the thick armor potion when this flies in the face of my use. In the next breathe (with what I read as a condescending tone, with one of the 3 “why?” sentences) you ask for a potion to mimic an unarmed mod. This being suggested here and in your 5-suggestions makes your whole argument weak because it appears you don’t care about the mod being in a potion, but instead just take a hyper critical stance against the potion or the ability.


    I believe you have no understanding of the shield ability while tanking. The AoE taunt, speed, fire resist, numerous passives and best-single target stun makes it a uniquely strong class and you overlook this completely simply because orcs drop a potion.

    /*late edit addition*/
    Even though we have disagreements, I still want to thank you for this thread because it brought up many views that I think are important for the Devs. Beta is the time for big balance tweaks, and I generally have a roll with the punches attitude on most gameplay aspects, so I'm just eager to roll with whatever comes.
    Sometimes you ask a question when you already know the answer. Somtimes in a discussion you ask for something you don't want. But that second point as well as a few others seems to be something you've never heard. I'll leave this point with one more: the quickest way to get a piece of information from a message board for example is to give the wrong answer (rather than asking what is _____).

    I'm fully aware shield is a class that has multiple taunt abilities. That's not my issue with shield. The issue with shield is that it is a tank class that gets a flat mitigation to armor.

    There is a huge glaring problem with this game in that Side A has a % ability and side b,d,f have a flat mitigation ability. This is on the level of a time in the game when a few classes had massive aoe abilities and could get full damage from those abilities vs multiple mobs. You were a chump for playing the game with single target damage abilities.


    The short version is that flat mitigation probably needs to be deleted as an idea (because making it scale to % mitigation would be a good deal of work).


    We could go back and look at multiple game examples where you see power set A is just better than power set B. I'll give you one from city of heroes (playing as a mastermind). There were many choices to pick from to make your minions; zombies were slow, tanky and melee based while robots were somewhat squishy but had high ranged dps and aoe. At that point in time robots were a slightly better choice as a pet controller class. Likewise when looking at the mastermind power sets there were a number of different options. Poison was cool and had a few control abilities like hold, debuffs to apply on a boss and a damage ability or two with a single target heal. Meanwhile darkness gave you a tarpit, aoe heal, and a few other cool tricks (think one of them might have been a damage mitigation debuff - think dark chapel miss chance you put on mobs in an aoe fashion).

    The point is that I could have been poison/zombie but I went with darkness/robot. Relatively speaking rating those power sets at that point in time I could have been something like 4/8 with poison/zombie but instead I went with 10/9 darkness/robots.

    There should never be such a huge disparity between choice A and choice B. The choice between robots/zombies for example was not all that big. But the difference between poison and darkness was insane.

    Shield is poison in this example when it comes to having damage mitigation relatively speaking compared to unarmed which is darkness.


    If citan is going to fix endgame combat he needs to sit down and look at every aspect of it. When you consider the idea of taking critical hits and damage you have to consider damage mitigation. Tank classes A,B,C & D all need to be relatively fit with the ability to take hits. They don't all need to be identical.

    But it needs to be like a drink fountain where you can chose flavor, A,B,C or D and know that in the end every choice will be delicious. If class B & C suck nobody will play them. Everyone will just cookie cutter A & D. That makes for stupid gameplay. What's the point of having poorly balanced classes in the game other than wasting time and money (development time, dollars and of course councils).

  10. #50
    Senior Member Golliathe's Avatar
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    How do you fix the problem as there are multiple problematic elements weaved together?

    1. Fix flat mitigation and % mitigation so they are either a flavor choice or one doesn't exist.
    2. Make an active combat system where you can prevent crits by doing things like control rage and keeping your armor up rather than being able to survive only by stacking passive buffs (death avoidance, raw armor, % mitigation, flat mitigation, etc). Maybe we could have new spells that are a hitpoint buffer? (example shield of faith - new made up spell grants a target 200 point damage shield for 10 seconds. Or maybe mentalism would have a forcefield buff they could throw on someone )
    3. Rework the AI for things like root/overtaunt so there is never a situation where you can make mobs want to attack the players but are just standing there idle trying to attack something that will never be in range (in effect becoming harmless loot pinatas)

    I have been told Citan's central doctrine for this game has been that you don't need a tank/healer/dps type group format. Looking at Ranperre's comment isn't it a bit sad if there are only 10 tanks on the server? I could see a solution where you only ever pick one of a tanking class at a time and it solves both problems.

    What if playing a tanky class gave you something like universal damage mitigation (just for having that class active). This of course would not stack so playing shield would give you 5% and playing unarmed would give you 5% but you only have 5% if you play both. Just like the damage revamp that would help people with bad gear playing the tanky class (I mean you really can't even play the role at all at lower levels because your mods are just not there).

    As a design choice should people need to play with 2 tank classes? If everyone were tankier in general (perhaps using armor as a built in % mitigation tool) I could see there being no need to use 2 tank classes. I think it would be interesting if there were more options that worked.



    I assume of course one of the underlying goals is that no one should be able to solo Gazluk keep content? In order for that to happen certain abilities might need to get reworked or limited (for example no more stacking of massive dmg reduction abilties like from psychology. I could maybe see one of these might need a rework so that one is for when you are playing a support psych guy you use this ability and it debuffs the mob, but reduces your damage to the target by the same amount).

    As a minor issue can we adress the respawn aspect of Gazluk keep? It's really cheap to have a room always respawn the mobs at the same time. If you want to keep people from solo farming the area why not have the first pull be linked (aka if you get one you get all of them). A group should be able to handle that relatively well - stuns, roots, mez and barring all that they should in theory be able to slowly kill one - reset- repeat.

    So instead of making all the spawns linked you could just have a few checkpoints around the zone where the pull is 4 mobs. This could include the entrance, the room right before the first chest on the west side, and maybe a couple of other areas (like before a boss to be a big red flag saying hey dont go this way if you can't handle the heat).



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