Welcome to Project: Gorgon!


Project: Gorgon is a 3D fantasy MMORPG (massively-multiplayer online role-playing game) that features an immersive experience that allows the player to forge their own path through exploration and discovery. We won't be guiding you through a world on rails, and as a result there are many hidden secrets awaiting discovery. Project: Gorgon also features an ambitious skill based leveling system that bucks the current trend of pre-determined classes, thus allowing the player to combine skills in order to create a truly unique playing experience.

The Project: Gorgon development team is led by industry veteran Eric Heimburg. Eric has over a decade of experience working as a Senior and Lead Engineer, Developer, Designer and Producer on successful games such as Asheron’s Call 1 and 2, Star Trek Online and other successful Massively Multiplayer Online Games.



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  1. #31
    Member Jarlaxle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golliathe View Post

    The basic exploit for gazluk keep right now is:

    1. tank pulls.
    2. tank does aoe taunt.
    3. nobs get rooted
    4. tank runs out of aggro radius
    5. mobs stand there passively and die to dps
    Then thank god tanks aren't given even more mitigation. Otherwise #3 and #4 wouldn't even be necessary. I'm guessing unarmed doesn't have the "super taunt" which is why it's being asked to be given to shield? Also, staff also has percentage mitigation. So that's an option besides unarmed. It seems only the main weapon attack skills have it and not so much the "support" skills. Maybe it's balance issues where he doesn't want that kind of damage mitigation for any character. I mean if you add that much more mitigation, then you'd have to up the damage of mobs even more and then other classes would just drop like flies.

  2. #32
    Member Jarlaxle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golliathe View Post
    There's really one simple solution for this... change one of the shield mods to give 18% mitigation that would not stack with the unarmed version (or nerf the shit out of unarmed's % bonus).

    A more complicated solution would be to balance out flat mitigation in some way so that the shield user has some kind of advantage as a choice over unarmed for tanking mitigation; currently there is none for fighting equal tier elite content and that is a huge problem. There is an issue with game mechanics for ranged mobs (including spellcasters) in that Gazluk keep is a series of sight blocking engagement points. Elemental ward looks cool on paper but it is very easy for unarmed to be able to run fast and hide (avoiding the dps of ranged mobs).

    When option A is better in every way for mitigation it makes option B not really be an option.



    You would be dead wrong.

    You always have % mitigation from unarmed. You do not always have the flat mitigation from armor.

    To make those two things be relatively equal flat mitigation would need to be better than unarmed's % mitigation bonus because you lose armor during the fight.

    If you had a magic wand you could make a system where flat mitigation absorbed say the equivalent of 36% dmg at the start of the fight with full stats (and did not stack with unarmed's 18%). As the fight progressed you would slowly lose flat mitigation bonuses. Somewhere in the midst of battle the 18% of unarmed would become better than the mitigation than the flat mitigation due to armor (and if you had both that bonus would take over).


    What citan needs is a simple way to make shield attractive as a choice for a tank.

    If you look at lvl 70 shield mods (neck/shield) you will find one that says : Max Armor +56 when Shield is active.

    What if we change this treasure effect to also have: +18% mitigation from critical hits?


    This would mean that a shield user would have 36% mitigation from critical hits vs an unarmed user who would have 18% mitigation from all damage. Obviously in order to be competitive you can't have both bonuses so the system would use the bonus from the top skill on your bar if you had both active.

    If that's too much what if we changed this treasure effect to include 10 universal damage reduction WITH a change in how damage from critical hits is calculated so that mitigation reduces incoming extra damage on the front end before any multiplication happens.
    If you must use shield to be "tank" and want the percent mitigation then probably better that you pair the shield with unarmed or staff. Otherwise we will have fire mage tanks, druid tanks, sword tanks, hammer tanks, etc. It's like ice mage saying, why I can't dps like fire can. Just roll fire mage then? Like you can't have all the cc/tools that ice mage or shield has + the same mitigation that another class without any of tools have and be even close to the same.
    Last edited by Jarlaxle; 04-10-2019 at 05:07 AM.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Golliathe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    If you must use shield to be "tank" and want the percent mitigation then probably better that you pair the shield with unarmed or staff.
    No. Look at shield's treasure layout... it is designed to be a tank (rage control, dmg reduction, stun, taunt). But the design is a complete failure compared to say staff or unarmed. This means shield needs a rework because the other two are functional vs same level content with appropriate layouts.

    If the monster isn't hitting you with fire shield active then your damage with shield is quite terrible compared to most damage specs. If the monster is hitting you (like in a solo build setup) then the damage is decent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Otherwise we will have fire mage tanks, druid tanks, sword tanks, hammer tanks, etc. It's like ice mage saying, why I can't dps like fire can. Just roll fire mage then? Like you can't have all the cc/tools that ice mage or shield has + the same mitigation that another class without any of tools have and be even close to the same.
    So what? Why would that be bad? You give up the option to mix fire with say BC where you have 6+ aoes, big nukes and the 2 heals from battlechem.

    Crit mitigation overall would still be worse than always 18% mitigation. The reason why is because most crits outside gazluk keep don't matter (few exceptions like the general).



    While there is no need to make every class identical there is an inherent need to make every class option viable. Shield is not viable for dps (*except maybe solo) when compared to other choices - fire, archery, bc, priest mentalism, druid, etc. Likewise shield is massively worse than unarmed and staff when it comes to defensive tanking. Are you one of those people who thinks it's fine for priest to be an extremely OP solo (do literally everything well) class while its foil necromancer sucks at pretty much everything by comparison?

    The only thing you can do with shield at the moment from a defensive point of view is stack lots of flat mitigation and be nearly invulnerable to super weak monsters 20 levels beneath you or more. Fire has the same benefit for example.... you have a damage shield just like shield AND you have super powerful AoEs so you can just point your finger and disintegrate enemies en masse before they have the chance to bother you. You even have a move speed power too!

  4. #34
    Senior Member Golliathe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Then thank god tanks aren't given even more mitigation.

    ...

    I mean if you add that much more mitigation, then you'd have to up the damage of mobs even more and then other classes would just drop like flies.
    The reason people pull this way in Gazluk is because many of the monsters can kill you outright with a critical hit unless you are sitting on something stupid like 1k health/armor. Critical hits being bumped up to what they are currently encourage people to subvert the mechanics.

    The reality is that if you are in perfect rolled armor in a strong group (with the trinity) then Gazluk should probably be easy to clear and relatively boring.

    #3-4 wouldn't be an issue if the monsters had code to detect their primary target was out of range and would immediately spin to something in range (already covered in previously mentioned thread). So that will get fixed in time.

    What doesn't seem to have a viable fix anytime soon are changes that would make shield be a viable tank (because flat mitigation doesn't scale).


    It is quite common in other games like this to see a tank with 60% mitigation. Citan said he doesn't want anything like that but he has crits tuned to a point where that much mitigation on a tank would actually make sense. On the bright side it seems that he decided that crits might be too high (because so many people were bitching about being full hp and then dead).

  5. #35
    Member Jarlaxle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golliathe View Post
    No. Look at shield's treasure layout... it is designed to be a tank (rage control, dmg reduction, stun, taunt). But the design is a complete failure compared to say staff or unarmed. This means shield needs a rework because the other two are functional vs same level content with appropriate layouts.

    If the monster isn't hitting you with fire shield active then your damage with shield is quite terrible compared to most damage specs. If the monster is hitting you (like in a solo build setup) then the damage is decent.




    So what? Why would that be bad? You give up the option to mix fire with say BC where you have 6+ aoes, big nukes and the 2 heals from battlechem.

    Crit mitigation overall would still be worse than always 18% mitigation. The reason why is because most crits outside gazluk keep don't matter (few exceptions like the general).



    While there is no need to make every class identical there is an inherent need to make every class option viable. Shield is not viable for dps (*except maybe solo) when compared to other choices - fire, archery, bc, priest mentalism, druid, etc. Likewise shield is massively worse than unarmed and staff when it comes to defensive tanking. Are you one of those people who thinks it's fine for priest to be an extremely OP solo (do literally everything well) class while its foil necromancer sucks at pretty much everything by comparison?

    The only thing you can do with shield at the moment from a defensive point of view is stack lots of flat mitigation and be nearly invulnerable to super weak monsters 20 levels beneath you or more. Fire has the same benefit for example.... you have a damage shield just like shield AND you have super powerful AoEs so you can just point your finger and disintegrate enemies en masse before they have the chance to bother you. You even have a move speed power too!
    Oh in that case, I'm guessing psychology was also meant to tank since they also have rage control, dmg reduction, stun, taunt. Just give them percentage mit as well. Same with druids and sword? Oh wait they have rage control, damage reduction, taunt but missing the stun, so I'm guessing not tank? Lol is that what defines which class is supposed to be a tank nowadays?

    Well necromancers are in a bad state that's why there are so few in GK. Same cannot be said of shield though. There's about 5 shield users to every necromancer I see in GK. A lot of veterans are utilizing shield in GK. If it sucked, I doubt that would happen. I see more shield users than unarmed and staff even. How about remove shields temp elemental immunity and add more mitigation for physical? Or just change it to physical mitigation %. That would be fine then?
    Last edited by Jarlaxle; 04-10-2019 at 10:19 AM.

  6. #36
    Member Jarlaxle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golliathe View Post
    The reason people pull this way in Gazluk is because many of the monsters can kill you outright with a critical hit unless you are sitting on something stupid like 1k health/armor. Critical hits being bumped up to what they are currently encourage people to subvert the mechanics.

    The reality is that if you are in perfect rolled armor in a strong group (with the trinity) then Gazluk should probably be easy to clear and relatively boring.

    #3-4 wouldn't be an issue if the monsters had code to detect their primary target was out of range and would immediately spin to something in range (already covered in previously mentioned thread). So that will get fixed in time.

    It is quite common in other games like this to see a tank with 60% mitigation. Citan said he doesn't want anything like that but he has crits tuned to a point where that much mitigation on a tank would actually make sense. On the bright side it seems that he decided that crits might be too high (because so many people were bitching about being full hp and then dead).
    By subverting mechanics, do you means it's intended in this game for the tank character to sit there and take the hits instead? I actually remember that thread and if I call correctly, it wasn't stated that it would be fixed. Maybe you were mistaken. He said something along the lines of if new behavior was added where if mobs can't reach target, it would hit the nearest target, then wouldn't that make snares and high movement speed too powerful in replacement of root being too powerful? But I do agree that being rooted and not fighting back because top aggro is out of range needs to be changed. Even trying to chase down the high speed player or crawling to the top aggro player because of snares is better than standing there and doing nothing and would actually make more sense.

    And you really can't compare the % mitigation of this game to other games with whole different systems. Some games you might die faster with 80% mitigation compared to another game where you can survive well with just 20% mitigation. It just doesn't make sense to compare across games with different damage numbers, mob health, player health, etc like that.

  7. #37
    Banned spider91301's Avatar
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    I feel like I need popcorn in debates like this lol but on a serous note crits suck in general you basicly get told hmmm you want to avoid a 1 shot go with staff and shield be completely immune to damage or rng instant kills you mitagation wont save you from 1 shots, you ether become completely immune to damage or die inless you have certain mods for shield like 101% avoid death



    Still find it funny how I can't crit with my sword like enemies can


    PS: This is the only game I have ever seen with a 1 shot mechanic but at least it keeps it interesting gk was getting to easy and currently until they find a more permanent solution this will work for now

    Edit: you can survive a crit by adding generic health mods and other mods that add health but even then your hanging on a thread of life and crits normally don't come in sets of ones



    Also this is me when I either I get one shot or see someone else get 1 shot and shrug it off as bad rng and tell myself or the other person who I am in a party with those things happen alot




    Lol sorry really had to add this as the salt to the conversation because I had to explain one day what 1 shots were to someone else that was in a party with me and why they can happen to pretty much anyone and told him/her not to feel bad about it
    Last edited by spider91301; 04-11-2019 at 05:01 AM.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Golliathe's Avatar
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    There is a real problem when people start putting their interests above everything else (be it level of wealth, character class power, etc).

    I'm not asking for any class to be nerfed because it is "better than mine". I'd like to see all the class options be equally awesome. But that is 100% not what we have right now. In a perfect game world we might have a point system where all classes have balanced ratings for: defense, offense, utility, healing. There is a huge problem when you can build for 10,10,10,4 vs 4,8,6,6. This game currently is quite unbalanced and many classes are just simply 'not as good' as other options. Some people think this is fine but I do not. I quite often heard people say, "Lycan is balanced because it is a permanent choice and has negatives; therefore my broken combo that makes your damage trivial is perfectly justified." Citan thankfully did not agree with that assessment.

    As you point out necro is a perfect exmaple of a not fun experience vs the next dps class on the list. I suspect necro would be decent if not outright good assuming : all heals healed necro pets (imagine the goodness of bc/necro), graveyard summon requirements were removed , pet owners had a 'cycle through my pets' button for easy targeting, pets could be forced to attack a target via a sidebar button, pets did not lag behind the user so much (maybe inherent +4 movespeed faster than the owner no matter what) and necro pets in general had slightly better stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Oh in that case, I'm guessing psychology was also meant to tank since they also have rage control, dmg reduction, stun, taunt. Just give them percentage mit as well. Same with druids and sword? Oh wait they have rage control, damage reduction, taunt but missing the stun, so I'm guessing not tank? Lol is that what defines which class is supposed to be a tank nowadays?
    Where's the taunt on druid/sword? They don't have it. Sword is rather clearly a rage control and dps class. Druid is a support healer/dps class. It's quite ridiculous to claim they are meant to be tanks. I will point out to you that druid has a -taunt mod to reduce aggro (not increase it).

    Psychology is at least a pseudo tank. It has all the necessary parts : taunt, rage control , dmg reduction. It has armor restoration and some healing too.

    There is a decided difference when you can build mock for +940 taunt (with +65 damage) vs a class that only has mods that reduce taunt.

    Is psych as good a tank as unarmed? No. Nothing is quite frankly.

    How do you compete with this mod form unarmed that you can stack twice? Taunt From Attack Damage +70% when Unarmed is active



    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Well necromancers are in a bad state that's why there are so few in GK. Same cannot be said of shield though. There's about 5 shield users to every necromancer I see in GK. A lot of veterans are utilizing shield in GK. If it sucked, I doubt that would happen. I see more shield users than unarmed and staff even. How about remove shields temp elemental immunity and add more mitigation for physical? Or just change it to physical mitigation %. That would be fine then?
    Just because people are using in shield in Gazluk Keep does not mean shield is good inside that zone. Many people go to this zone to farm the jewelry/offhands they need and then leave never to return.

    There is a very real concept that many builds work just fine outside of GK but are kinda trash inside. Shield happens to be one of them as it tanks just fine vs lower tier content (as you can stack enough flat mitigation to make 50-60 enemies attacks to be trivial). But the scaling for shield fails vs equal tier content.

    What is shield good for?

    Is it a damage spec with lots of high hitting damage moves? No.
    Does it have lots of AoEs? No it has one.
    Is it a survivability spec with nice utility? Yes (stuns, knockback, avoid death, move speed, taunt)
    Can it build for lots of taunt? Yes
    Does it offer healing to anyone other than itself? No
    Can it build for lots of buffs to help vs getting hit? Yes.

    You can call that powerset whatever you want but most games will call it a tank class because it has taunt, low dmg and theoretically high survivability.

    If shield is not a tank, then what do you consider it to be? DPS? Hah.

    You could argue make shift support and I would accept that as I have heard of people using the shield mitigation buffs as a support class.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Golliathe's Avatar
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    Hypothesis: Taunt is currently too high.

    Have you been through gazluk with a tank that can taunt for 50% of a mob's health or more with a one button press? Overall it makes the content trivial and routine. It is a night and day different experience than going through with no tank (in the same way that killing mobs with 2-3 people is way more difficult than playing with a full group).


    Let me take a moment to compare Everquest tanking and how that differs with this game. Building taunt in EQ was a slow process and essentially every 6-8 seconds you pressed your taunt button. Fights were long and essentially dps characters did a slow build on damage while the tank built up aggro slowly. Only at the end of the fight did you have the opportunity to unload with your highest damage attacks.

    That is the polar opposite of PG where fights are short and the tank can build so much aggro instantaneously that he can taunt for more damage than the mob has health with one or two applications of taunt. DPS characters can just go through all their attacks starting with those dealing the highest damage with zero consequence.

    1. I suspect that Citan felt the game was boring because it is too easy to build taunt.
    2. He then built crits as a way to make the game exciting again.
    3. But everyone hated that application because it isn't fun when you go from 100% being alive to dead with zero chance to react.
    4. What if we removed crits (or effectively nerfed them down to like 5% more damage) and instead made the game slower paced for group play?

    a. On this end give dungeon group mobs way more health. How much more? Maybe Double!
    b. Nerf taunt % so that a tank has to build taunt slowly (this would nerf the lolz of 6-10 mob pulls)
    c. Massively increase drop rates because you kill much slower and should be better rewarded. As we mention everquest I have to say one of the cool things about that game was that big named bosses always dropped end game loot. What if high tier curse bosses like Zuke dropped one piece of 'shared' loot that was a guaranteed yellow drop for one of the player's current build in the party?
    d. Make rage bar attacks in 'group play loot dungeons' the current equivalent of rage crits. Make them devastating and punishing so that players try very hard to not fill rage bars. I feel this would encourage more active team play in end tier dungeons with specific build needs rather than just building for max dps.
    e. Note that longer fights would make dungeons harder as there would be many more chances for adds (that can't be killed in 10 seconds or less). Once again this would shift group play to more specific builds designed around difficult gameplay rather than just building for max dps.

    5. Everyone would need to pay attention because they have to pace the fight with their attacks instead of firing off massive damage down to lower attacks.

  10. #40
    Member Jarlaxle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golliathe View Post
    There is a real problem when people start putting their interests above everything else (be it level of wealth, character class power, etc).



    There is a very real concept that many builds work just fine outside of GK but are kinda trash inside. Shield happens to be one of them as it tanks just fine vs lower tier content (as you can stack enough flat mitigation to make 50-60 enemies attacks to be trivial). But the scaling for shield fails vs equal tier content.

    What is shield good for?

    Is it a damage spec with lots of high hitting damage moves? No.
    Does it have lots of AoEs? No it has one.
    Is it a survivability spec with nice utility? Yes (stuns, knockback, avoid death, move speed, taunt)
    Can it build for lots of taunt? Yes
    Does it offer healing to anyone other than itself? No
    Can it build for lots of buffs to help vs getting hit? Yes.

    You can call that powerset whatever you want but most games will call it a tank class because it has taunt, low dmg and theoretically high survivability.

    If shield is not a tank, then what do you consider it to be? DPS? Hah.

    You could argue make shift support and I would accept that as I have heard of people using the shield mitigation buffs as a support class.
    Shield is obviously not a dps class. It is a utility class and definitely not trash in GK. Do you even play shield? Among the utility/support classes it ranks at least average if not above average. Whether you want to call it a tank or not does not mean it is a good tank in every situation. That's why there are different classes that do different things better than others and you have access to those classes just like everyone else. Stop trying to create new roles for the classes. It's like the dot classes coming out to say dots aren't as good as the burst classes due to the length of the average fight. Well the burst options are available, just pick those options. No classes will ever be 100% equal in everything unless every class is the exact same.

    Since you like to make your points as biased as possible, let me redo your arguments for you.

    Is it a damage spec with lots of high hitting damage moves? No.
    Does it have lots of AoEs? No it has one.
    Is it a survivability spec with nice utility? Yes
    Does it have a low cool down stun? Yes
    Does it have knockbacks? Yes
    Is it the only class with have death avoidance? Yes
    Is it the only class with elemental damage immunity? Yes
    Does it have move speed? Yes
    Does it have taunt? Yes
    Can it build for lots of taunt? Yes
    Does it offer healing to anyone other than itself? No
    Does it have a lot of armor healing? yes
    Can it build for lots of buffs to help vs getting hit? Yes.
    Is it good in every situation? No
    Can it be a viable tank in every situation? No
    Does it offer things that unarmed and staff doesn't? Yes
    Does it offer rage reduction? Yes
    Does it offer group armor heal? Yes
    Does it have a self buff for slashing damage? yes
    Do you have access to those classes you deem "viable" for gk content? Yes
    Should we stop making shield invincible in lower level content? No


    Would you like to remove the elemental damage immunity and death avoidance and add in more physical percent mitigation? Be more like the physical mitigation classes and less like what the shield class was created as. We can do that with psychology as well since you said they're tanks also. Add physical mit and remove the mez or their other utility.



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