Priest Offers Too much vs Other 'healing class' Options

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Originally Posted by Yaffy

How can you state this as a fact? Do you know this for sure?

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You can click on people and look at their class choices. You can recognize most of the sounds they make if you have been playing for a while.

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Originally Posted by Yaffy

If you are just "Guessing" based on what you know, then it is no more valid than my belief that BC is more popular than Priest.

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Did you place characters into different guilds and look at what they are playing? You might have not done this but I have (not necessarily explictly for this purpose - but more of a dual purpose thing). Some people talk more than others but you can hear quite a few things if you listen (read) to what they have to say. You can also dig for info on people when they shout for a group for things like GK.

I have seen 5-10 priests for every bard/bc/mental/psych healer in the past ~120 days. I do talk to people and ask them questions especially on low level shopping/storage characters. I find it interesting that priest seems most popular among SEA, EU and NA players; usually culturally different peoples play games with very different mindsets.

Call it an unofficial survey but it is something I have been thinking about for a long time.

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Originally Posted by Yaffy

please do not use statements I have made in the past in arguments with other people. Otherwise you are dragging me into your arguments like you did earlier.

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It would have taken a lot less effort to just say hey go read the damn thread. But I doubt he would have bothered. But on the brightside you are here and can add to the discussion. Im not trying to make anyone mad by the way.

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Originally Posted by Golliathe

My argument is that for healing group purposes priest makes mentalism look like a poor choice by comparison. Here are some undeniable facts comparing the two classes:

1. Both skills have an epic attack and can be setup to be a good damage dealer.
2. One skill has a rez the other doesn't.
3. One skill has the ability to remove any nasty debuff you encounter and the other has nothing.
4. One skill has 4 heals while the other has 2 (and some other skills that lock each other out - which can sometimes heal).


5. The only thing mentalism does better are group buffs like adrenaline wave and power wave. But using those waves messes up your healing potential so be careful using them! (note: priest does not have this inferior design problem)

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Yaffy, do you agree with these points? Is having a rez better than not having a rez? It is a simple question. I have noted that you consider debuff removal pointless. Most people in GK do not consider unfetter pointless. It allows for much faster and safer pulls of monsters. Poison removal is fantastic in a few places in the game; most of the time it's pretty crap but when it is relevant it is nice to have.

You seem to want to undervalue epic attacks but honestly for a healer who uses 4 heals and maybe 2 attacks you can make some decent damage with an epic and one other power (depending on mod availability). Are you going to tell me an epic attack is not well suited to do good damage? Most of them do exactly that.

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Originally Posted by Zarmengar

As I follow this thread, I would say; I am glad that the various skills are in fact different and not cookie cutter of other skills with different names. I get the impression the OP would like that.

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I'm wanting to see all the heal classes be equally viable. Some of them are more equal than others right now. Unfortunately people who have a vested interest in playing class X will get mad if you want to negatively change it (by making it comparatively weaker by buffing competing options).

How do you justify the healing potential of a class that heals less, doesn't have a rez and has fewer heals than a competing option?


I have made efforts to say rework these things and necro might be pretty good (without even buffing the skills themselves but mechanics around the skillset). I would love to see necro be a good class; not that I want to play it.

I want to play neither priest or mentalism as a healer but it doesn't take much effort to realize one is much better than the other.

From memory (of old patch notes) & my personal experience /bias:

Priest is the only specifically designed group healer
Druid is a jack-of-all trades (& possibly best in class for AOE healing)
Psychology is a balanced damage /single target healer (i.e. yourself)
Mentalism is a group focused buffer with decent damage and healing capabilities
Pig is a variation of all the above & before priest arrived, best in class for group healing when combined with another healing skill

All the above are already viable & occupy different niches in the game.
They do not need to be equal & I, for one, welcome that they have different pros and cons.

No single skill should be good at everything, especially if there are other options available e.g. resurrections.

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Originally Posted by poulter

From memory (of old patch notes)

Priest is the only specifically designed group healer


No single skill should be good at everything, especially if there are other options available e.g. resurrections.

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I can accept the entire premise might be flawed if priest is supposed to be the only full healer class; but if that is the case then maybe priest damage should be examined a bit?

You can make a very high damaging priest and make it very close to a build like mentalism (using an online tool or ingame mods). It doesn't exactly seem right that priest gets to be the best healer and have high damage potential. Imagine if you slashed priest damage literally in half. There would not be a need for this thread - priest would heal more but it would suck at damage. Note I am not saying that should be done I just wanted to point out what I see to be a flaw with priest : it has high potential for damage, it can be built to heal super well, and has nice utility options (not necessarily all at the same time). You cannot say the same for any of the other classes in this thread.

I am fully understanding that maybe we don't have the full picture. Mentalism for example might have way more damage if crits can go much higher via level 100 or 125 phrenology.

Consider for a moment the fact that we might get weather witch in the near future (some were hoping for this patch). Imagine if it ran fast in combat, could fly, had great potential to build AoE as well as single target and because it has a weather element could rather easily ignore cold effects. That would be a terrible power creep as it would pretty much 100% replace fire. When you play as priest, and play along priest when compared to other classes you can see that maybe something is amiss.

Suppose for a moment all of the following is true:

1. Priest was built to be the best full party healer
2. Priest can be built to do very high damage
3. Priest will ever only be the class to have lots of removal buffs


Do you feel that would devalue the support healing of other classes? I for one feel it would as you could level up priest to 70 and have a high damage class if you want it or the best healing class if you want it.

One perk that I think we have not considered much is that priest works as an animal form. To me that gives it another +1 in terms of is this better than that when you consider there are support classes like bard/bc that pretty much lose all function as an animal. What I don't see are lots of -1's to make priest not be the ultimate option (as in my witch exmple)

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Originally Posted by Golliathe

I can accept the entire premise might be flawed if priest is supposed to be the only full healer class; but if that is the case then maybe priest damage should be examined a bit?

You can make a very high damaging priest and make it very close to a build like mentalism (using an online tool or ingame mods). It doesn't exactly seem right that priest gets to be the best healer and have high damage potential. Imagine if you slashed priest damage literally in half. There would not be a need for this thread - priest would heal more but it would suck at damage. Note I am not saying that should be done I just wanted to point out what I see to be a flaw with priest : it has high potential for damage, it can be built to heal super well, and has nice utility options (not necessarily all at the same time). You cannot say the same for any of the other classes in this thread.

I am fully understanding that maybe we don't have the full picture. Mentalism for example might have way more damage if crits can go much higher via level 100 or 125 phrenology.

Consider for a moment the fact that we might get weather witch in the near future (some were hoping for this patch). Imagine if it ran fast in combat, could fly, had great potential to build AoE as well as single target and because it has a weather element could rather easily ignore cold effects. That would be a terrible power creep as it would pretty much 100% replace fire. When you play as priest, and play along priest when compared to other classes you can see that maybe something is amiss.

Suppose for a moment all of the following is true:

1. Priest was built to be the best full party healer
2. Priest can be built to do very high damage
3. Priest will ever only be the class to have lots of removal buffs


Do you feel that would devalue the support healing of other classes? I for one feel it would as you could level up priest to 70 and have a high damage class if you want it or the best healing class if you want it.

One perk that I think we have not considered much is that priest works as an animal form. To me that gives it another +1 in terms of is this better than that when you consider there are support classes like bard/bc that pretty much lose all function as an animal. What I don't see are lots of -1's to make priest not be the ultimate option (as in my witch exmple)

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Can you throw out some dps numbers of priest vs mentalism and other classes from on the testing you've done? I can no longer take these kinds of statements from you as fact anymore based on your past history of this thread and others where you've been more often wrong than right. I mean it surely can't be that one single epic attack on a 60 second recast timer that you've mentioned at least 10x right? Because I assure you that mentalism dps > priest dps.

I think the guiding principle is: Yes, it can, but not all at the same time. You are limited by having 6 spells available at a time & the available mod combinations.

The same approach can be seen in Bard, Archery & Druid.

Bard has 3 songs, but realistically you can only build for 2 of them at a time

Archery can be built as Single target damage with crowd control, DOT or AOE, but you effectively have to choose 2 of the 3 in any build

Druid can be debuffer, healer or damage dealer (via poison). Again, only 2 of the 3 are viable in the same build

To my mind, Priest is no different. You cannot enjoy all of its' capabilities in 1 build.

However, combine Archery (Single target & AOE) build with Druid (Debuff & Healing) build and you can mitigate most weaknesses plus produce a combo that can solo most elements of the game at level 70.

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Originally Posted by poulter

To my mind, Priest is no different. You cannot enjoy all of its' capabilities in 1 build.

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Are you saying then that you see no problem with priest (if it is in fact a better healer than another class in the list and has very good damage potential)?

Doesn't that make competing options very unappealing?

Class Build option 1: amazing capability as healer, has rez, has other nice perks, and you can swap gear sets and be a great damage dealer.

Class Build option 2: below average options as healer, has no rez, and can be a great damage dealer.


Given an informed choice nobody is going to pick the second option (in this case mentalism). That is the very definition of poor balance.

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Originally Posted by Jarlaxle

Because I assure you that mentalism dps > priest dps.

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The issue is that priest healing is massively better than mentalism (along with better perks like having a rez and being able to remove afflictions). In other words Priest damage doesn't suck but mentalism healing is lackluster compared to priest healing.

If that is true the only thing that makes sense from a balance standpoint comparing these two classes is to either buff mentalism or nerf priest (I will ask you to remember that I don't really think priest should get nerfed. But can you tell me any game where the "raid healer" has great damage potential on par with a dps character?)

I think I presented several options on how to make mentalism be a lot more fun to play (less tedious) and perhaps better balanced.

Caution: My recent experience is based on current end-game content using best-in-slot (BIS) gear. My views may not be representative of those experienced by most level 70 players.

I do see a problem with priest - namely the extended casting /channeling times.
My preference is to use instant cast or heal over time (HOT) spells, especially when solo.
I find druid suits my requirements much closer than priest. As mentioned before, I don't use priest for mainstream healing.

As for other healing options, I find bard /druid or mentalism /druid far more forgiving & reliable when running GK in a group.

Priest resurrection spell is only useful in a group & (from memory) doesn't apply to the caster. It is useful when someone takes a rage crit & dies, but is very niche /situational plus can take too long to activate if it is the puller that is dead.
I find that Bard AOE resurrection is a game changer & is a better fit.
Plus in a geared group, most players have 2 resses each and (often) self-ress capability.

Gear:
I carry 3 sets of gear in GK and change to suit the party composition and area of GK or boss. This still gives me c. 50 free inventory slots plus a 20-slot crate.
At a press of a button, I can adjust my capabilities and play-style to suit the need.

Holy Trinity aka Tank, Healer, Damage
My experience of running GK several hundred times, is that unless the group is doing a speed run (often via Gut Ache to the second level), or still using level 60 gear, no dedicated healer is required. A geared puller using a secondary healing spec. plus two other players using healing secondary skills (e.g. BC or mentalism) are usually sufficient to clear GK.

Mentalism:
Personally, I use it in preference to priest for healing.
I also have a Ment /Psych build that can 1-shot kill the outdoor mobs in Gazluk followed by 2 lesser nukes that can 2-shot kill a second mob during the same fight.
Priest is a better healer than Mentalism, but can't match the flexibility that Meant provides.

Priest damage vs. Fire Magic
If I need fire damage (e.g. for Zuk in GK) then I find fire magic damage output to be higher and more sustainable. It is common in some Zuk fights that nearly half the damage done is from a single fire magic player. Priest can come close to this, but only due to the synergies provided by the secondary skill (which for me is often Mentalism).

And hopefully, after the latest patch a Hammer /Mentalism (Electric) build that is back on par with Fire and Archery.

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Originally Posted by poulter

Caution: My recent experience is based on current end-game content using best-in-slot (BIS) gear. My views may not be representative of those experienced by most level 70 players.

I do see a problem with priest - namely the extended casting /channeling times.
My preference is to use instant cast or heal over time (HOT) spells, especially when solo.

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And in a group setting the weakness of priest with cast time is largely avoided because you're not thinking oh my goodness I need this heal for me right now!

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Originally Posted by poulter

As for other healing options, I find bard /druid or mentalism /druid far more forgiving & reliable when running GK in a group.

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To max out mentalism you are running 2 waves. That means you are constantly juggling cast A - Cast B which for me takes 3-4x the effort for me to do constantly compared to other main heal builds.

I find mentalism not fun/easy to play unless you are just using one wave. The problem there is that you are losing potential.

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Originally Posted by poulter

Priest resurrection spell is only useful in a group & (from memory) doesn't apply to the caster. It is useful when someone takes a rage crit & dies, but is very niche /situational plus can take too long to activate if it is the puller that is dead.
I find that Bard AOE resurrection is a game changer & is a better fit.
Plus in a geared group, most players have 2 resses each and (often) self-ress capability.

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I find in a geared guild group not many people are dying. If you get into a discipline with abilities like mez/root/snare/fear you can kill bosses without a tank in the first place.

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Originally Posted by poulter

Gear:
I carry 3 sets of gear in GK and change to suit the party composition and area of GK or boss. This still gives me c. 50 free inventory slots plus a 20-slot crate.
At a press of a button, I can adjust my capabilities and play-style to suit the need.

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My motto for is that space is money lost when you cant carry things: "You pick the one right tool".

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Originally Posted by poulter

Holy Trinity aka Tank, Healer, Damage
My experience of running GK several hundred times, is that unless the group is doing a speed run (often via Gut Ache to the second level), or still using level 60 gear, no dedicated healer is required. A geared puller using a secondary healing spec. plus two other players using healing secondary skills (e.g. BC or mentalism) are usually sufficient to clear GK.

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I have to respect that is a lot of times clearing GK.

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Originally Posted by poulter

Mentalism:
Personally, I use it in preference to priest for healing.
I also have a Ment /Psych build that can 1-shot kill the outdoor mobs in Gazluk followed by 2 lesser nukes that can 2-shot kill a second mob during the same fight.
Priest is a better healer than Mentalism, but can't match the flexibility that Meant provides.

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Ok so we both agree priest heals better - progress. Can you define flexibility in that sense? I assume you mean its good in build A (for maybe flying), good in build B psych/mental, and also can be used to heal. Mentalism has no frills when it comes to combat benefits in my mind.

My argument is that priest is also extremely flexible. Comparing potential builds I argue that you get more when healing, good enough when damage dealing, and you have tons of frill when healing (mid- battle): rez/status cures.

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Originally Posted by poulter

Priest damage vs. Fire Magic
If I need fire damage (e.g. for Zuk in GK) then I find fire magic damage output to be higher and more sustainable. It is common in some Zuk fights that nearly half the damage done is from a single fire magic player. Priest can come close to this, but only due to the synergies provided by the secondary skill (which for me is often Mentalism).

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This is an apples and oranges comparison. You can build say a priest/fire dps set with -taunt gear and you will have nearly infinite power for a super high dps build that does well for AoE and ST.

Killing stuff solo priest can do perfectly fine on its own with a damage spec build. Mentalism heals worse than a full spec healer and while it does more damage as a damage spec is the damage sky high compared to priest? No. I see that as a design problem.

Given the choice of two classes with rpg ratings for healing, utility and damage: if one choice is one is S, S, A and the other is B, D, S who is really likely to pick the second over the first? You may disagree on my rating values but clearly priest has a lot of heals, has lots of debuff removal and rez.

Regardless of the value you place on things like broken bone removal, unfetter, rez - mentalism has nothing on par to offer there. When you need those things mentalism sucks by comparison. That in my mind is a design problem.

What is mentalism good for? It's great in a ST dps build. It's great for flying around. It's great if you want to not have to eat food for low tier content.

It is not great by comparison to other heal classes when you consider the whole picture.


The fix to this in my mind is to make mentalism easier to play while making it closer to priest in terms of utility. How do we do that? Alter how the waves work.

If mentalism for example could just go into a fight and cast wave 1, wave 2, wave 3, wave 4 : that would be a completely different feeling of utility that might be on par or stronger.

If there were a lvl 70 mod that let you have 2,3 or 4 waves activate simultaneously when you activate any wave (maybe 2 armor pieces for +1 mod each?) that would also give mentalism some "Oooooo Ahhhhhh" appeal.

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Originally Posted by Golliathe

And in a group setting the weakness of priest with cast time is largely avoided because you're not thinking oh my goodness I need this heal for me right now!



To max out mentalism you are running 2 waves. That means you are constantly juggling cast A - Cast B which for me takes 3-4x the effort for me to do constantly compared to other main heal builds.

I find mentalism not fun/easy to play unless you are just using one wave. The problem there is that you are losing potential.


I find in a geared guild group not many people are dying. If you get into a discipline with abilities like mez/root/snare/fear you can kill bosses without a tank in the first place.



My motto for is that space is money lost when you cant carry things: "You pick the one right tool".


I have to respect that is a lot of times clearing GK.



Ok so we both agree priest heals better - progress. Can you define flexibility in that sense? I assume you mean its good in build A (for maybe flying), good in build B psych/mental, and also can be used to heal. Mentalism has no frills when it comes to combat benefits in my mind.

My argument is that priest is also extremely flexible. Comparing potential builds I argue that you get more when healing, good enough when damage dealing, and you have tons of frill when healing (mid- battle): rez/status cures.




This is an apples and oranges comparison. You can build say a priest/fire dps set with -taunt gear and you will have nearly infinite power for a super high dps build that does well for AoE and ST.

Killing stuff solo priest can do perfectly fine on its own with a damage spec build. Mentalism heals worse than a full spec healer and while it does more damage as a damage spec is the damage sky high compared to priest? No. I see that as a design problem.

Given the choice of two classes with rpg ratings for healing, utility and damage: if one choice is one is S, S, A and the other is B, D, S who is really likely to pick the second over the first? You may disagree on my rating values but clearly priest has a lot of heals, has lots of debuff removal and rez.

Regardless of the value you place on things like broken bone removal, unfetter, rez - mentalism has nothing on par to offer there. When you need those things mentalism sucks by comparison. That in my mind is a design problem.

What is mentalism good for? It's great in a ST dps build. It's great for flying around. It's great if you want to not have to eat food for low tier content.

It is not great by comparison to other heal classes when you consider the whole picture.


The fix to this in my mind is to make mentalism easier to play while making it closer to priest in terms of utility. How do we do that? Alter how the waves work.

If mentalism for example could just go into a fight and cast wave 1, wave 2, wave 3, wave 4 : that would be a completely different feeling of utility that might be on par or stronger.

If there were a lvl 70 mod that let you have 2,3 or 4 waves activate simultaneously when you activate any wave (maybe 2 armor pieces for +1 mod each?) that would also give mentalism some "Oooooo Ahhhhhh" appeal.

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This debate is going in circles and you're just repeating things for the 5th time. I'm just gonna say mentalism isn't a healer and the class is fine. Read the previous replies from other people to answer what you just posted. This is a marathon and you win.