Explosive Runes need to drop from 55-70

I realize we are playing in a non complete state but it has always bothered me that the state of fire magic is basically one of two choices.

1. Farm runestones using a geared lvl 70 character (while not using fire magic).
2. Pay about 10k each when you need about 45 ERs.

If nothing else this can serve as a warning to people who are thinking about fire magic. You will likely do what I did.... get to 50 fire not having too much trouble getting the materials and then decide to change to not play fire anymore.

Since the plateau changes I see fewer permanent farmers up on the ledge and this makes me happy. For one thing the content up there is essentially fodder and I can fight 5-6 at a time with no problem. But more relevant I see fewer people trying to make a living by making noobs pay for things they need - that drives me crazy. I suspect this will make the people who really want to fire go up there and farm no matter what and those who thought fire was a passing interest will just keep walking past to a different class.

With that in mind I would like to offer a few suggestions:

A. Have some of the mobs who can drop 55 gear occasionally drop a runestone (last boss in wolfcave/Kur tower/ flame puck in WN) strike me as good options as they can drop up to lvl 55 gear). Im not sure that you can do this but maybe you could weight this so that people killing the boss with fire magic have a 1% better chance at getting a runestone (which may in fact bump the drop rate up to 2%)?

B. Offer level 55 fire mages a quest or two so that they can get a few of their spells. I can imagine one of these being something like: kill 10 fireworms in the Ilmari desert with the finishing blow being a fire spell or burn tick (pennoc can make you get a finishing blow on a pig with a kick so this should be a thing that can be done). Another example I can come up with quickly is burn enemies while fire magic is equipped to the tune of 25,000 fire burning damage. If I were designing things I would make both quests be available at 55 with the reality being that the player will likely not finish them until they are actually almost done with fire (and hence reward with 2 runestones each).

C. There should be something in the sewers that allows a player to earn a runestone? I'm thinking one of the goblins in the goblin area can maybe offer a quest for 10-20 Xendrite (Which I have seen selling for 1k each recently) and he rewards you with a runestone.

Closing thoughts:

Essentially I would like to see some small slight change so that fire isn't pay out 450k or gtfo. But with that in mind I don't want people to be able to easily pretend to be devoted fire mages to reap a nice 20k bounty from some easy quests either. I know there are many things that need to get fixed and with this post I'm just adding a +1 to the list.

Have you tired hunting the blue drakes in Ilmari? They drop runestones, in Labyrinth runs I've seen runestones drops and also killing rakks. The state of the ER being 10k is just utter greed from some players trying to control the market, ER shouldn't be more than 3-3.5k each.

As stated above, the runestones DO drop in level 55 areas. I have found plenty of runestones and faded books in Ilmari.... magic sand though.....

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Originally Posted by Daguin

As stated above, the runestones DO drop in level 55 areas. I have found plenty of runestones and faded books in Ilmari.... magic sand though.....

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I have all my level 70 spells but I am missing some of the lower ones (you can somewhat cheat the system with a bit of luck and ingenuity).

My point is that access to runes is poorer than it should be. From what I can tell books sand and runes are on the same table and it is complete luck as to which ones you get.


As for labs.... last I heard that dungeon was broken with pulling through the floor mechanics (just like good old everquest's Plane of Hate).

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Originally Posted by Golliathe

As for labs.... last I heard that dungeon was broken with pulling through the floor mechanics (just like good old everquest's Plane of Hate).

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I've run multiple labs groups, and have not encountered that.

And I am under the impression advanced player-vendor options are in the pipe line. Players who are selling stuff with the motivation of getting goods out to the needy will be able to set a "buying cap" of X of an item per week (or day) to an individual player account. As if, if you price things a little low, some people will just buy everything and re-sell it. Or they'll hoard it. The way to combat high prices is to flip it for less profit, flooding the player stall market via the work order board.

Additionally, to show there is player interest in what I am calling advanced player vendor options, you should suggest what I described above. If Citan sees enough people are asking for it, it'll might be implemented sooner than later. I do not believe the average player has a vendor, but enough active players rely on them for goods.

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Originally Posted by Golliathe

As for labs.... last I heard that dungeon was broken with pulling through the floor mechanics (just like good old everquest's Plane of Hate).

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That was a bug where people in animal form who received knockback effects could clip through corners and fall into the void and die. It's been fixed for a while though so there's no need to worry about it.

Have people been buying up runestones at a low price and selling at 10k? I've seen this happen with the lower items, specifically sulfur and saltpeter, but I was thinking the explosive runestone shortage was a lagged result of Wemedge not farming for a couple months. This marketplace, only constituting 30-40 dedicated vendors, is far from perfect and shortages happen. I mean, grasgot is 1800+ each.

Grasgot 1400-1500, sirine 1500, provolone 2600, runestones 2700-3300, nice phlog 100-110, that's where prices should be, but then you got a few people snatching everything up, driving prices way up because they are sitting on millions and got no regards for people struggling to make it, if someone is buying cheese it's mainly because they are not able to make it so why incur extra costs on the little guy? Do they enjoy doing it? Maybe.

How's ice magic materials compared to fire magic? From looking at the wiki, it seems that for newer players, the materials are harder to get, but would it be correct to say that at a higher level, it's easier to get ice magic materials than fire magic? I'm very new to the game, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Basically, do the same complaints apply to ice magic in any way?

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Originally Posted by Erkni

How's ice magic materials compared to fire magic? From looking at the wiki, it seems that for newer players, the materials are harder to get, but would it be correct to say that at a higher level, it's easier to get ice magic materials than fire magic? I'm very new to the game, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Basically, do the same complaints apply to ice magic?

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Even if ice was as popular as fire, probably not. Orcish spell pouches (analogue to runestones) have no corresponding recipe (runestones are used to make mercury) and tundra lichen and ice cores are super common. If you pay more than 1k for any of the ice magic recipe items aside from nibs and glowy yellow crystals, you're being fleeced.

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Originally Posted by Erkni

How's ice magic materials compared to fire magic? From looking at the wiki, it seems that for newer players, the materials are harder to get, but would it be correct to say that at a higher level, it's easier to get ice magic materials than fire magic? I'm very new to the game, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Basically, do the same complaints apply to ice magic in any way?

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There's two things to consider with ice magic.

1. Almost nobody plays it as their go to build (incredible low demand = exact opposite of fire). If I were a struggling ice mage I could have bought about 20+ from random vendors at face value in the last month or so. I have meanwhile never seen an explosive runestone on a vendor. I could have snatched them up to resell but I didn't as I like to leave treasures like that for someone who needs it (all bets are off if I want it/need it).

2. You can easily get 5 orc spell pouches running through GK in one run (in the same run one person might get one explosive runestone or maybe the group gets two). You can grind them near a fire in Kur (slowly) if you can't afford them or if no one is selling them even without winter gear. It might take a while but it isn't like the gap that is present with fire : If you are not lvl 70 in two other classes you will basically not grind explosive runestones.


Assuming you can run around Gazluk with some cold weather gear (this could be a lvl 50 shield+something else run set) you can gather all the lichen you want assuming it isn't blocked by spruce (you often have to kill 5-7 mobs to harvest spruce).

If you can't do that then you can buy lichen at 400 each from vendors (which won't break the bank when you look at the total needed) or probably around 200-250 from players.

You can buy all the ice cores you will ever need from Jack and a few other vendors at 100 each. Say you have no money - you can harvest them slowly in the crypt (and other places too).



Short version - there is an initial gap with ice getting your first few sets of spell pouches (very similar to fire with some of the first saltpeter). But fire is basically stuck when it comes to you being lvl 55 and needing ~45 runestones (progression is a vertical ice cliff, you are not a druid and you have no climbing gear. The result is change classes).

I'm not saying it should be done... but a hilarious work around would be to cap the price of red books/runestones on player vendors so that one runestone works out to 4k maximum (each book would cap at 1333) councils.


In part reason I made this post is along the lines of some comments I made last year about there being a progression wall with leveling in general. At that time there was no easy money casino so you got to 50 and then as a new player you were stuck. You had so many expenses from skills that you had little money to branch into industry and other money making things (much less multiple industry character options). This in my opinion has been fixed.

But fire is still stuck in the twilight zone where if you are trying to play through fire as a new character from 0-70 you just really can't.

I don't disagree with fire magic being more expensive but, subjectively, I found ice magic more stressful to level. I apparently got lucky when shopping for fire magic materials - I had no problem whatsoever finding runestones and red books at around 1K (that was about a year or more ago). With ice magic, I got stuck on trying to farm spell pouches for myself which was very unpleasant at level 50, and I couldn't find the higher level barter items at decent prices and got frustrated trying to farm them myself.

I think it's worth pointing out that training any high level ability is very expensive - when learning from an NPC, expect to plop down 17K or so for learning a single level 65 ability. I'm too lazy to do the math but I suspect that training magic abilities can actually be cheaper than training a regular skill. The problem with magic research is just that you need specific items instead of money and you can't pick what you learn in exchange.

Some comments on ice magic mats:
My general suggestion would be to make a list of what materials you will need and spend some time checking the player vendor stalls, so you can gradually get what you need at good prices.

The ice cores and tundra lichen are actually quite easy to come by once you spend some time in the Kur Mountains (of course, it helps vastly to be 40+ there, but you can still find them sold by players and in NPC used tabs, too.)

Orcish Spell pouches are not a fun item to solo farm at lower levels - the lowest level orcs are in the Kur Mountains and they are pretty nasty and have a tendency to drag lots of their friends into the fight. However, the spell pouches also drop from high level orcs which is great because lots of max level players run Gazluk Keep, collect spell pouches and then want to get rid of them. I don't know the current prices but I remember picking up a bunch at 400 each which is vastly cheaper than they were in the pre-Gazluk days.

So, up to level 50, ice magic is actually pretty easy to level (with some preparation). Then you get to 55 and ... frost nibs. I've never seen one drop, so no clue where they come from. I bartered for all of mine. The faded blue books weren't too bad; it took me some time but I was able to get them for 700-900. I also got some as drops from worms and rakshasa in Ilmari. So, not really bad, just that I needed so many of them. In my opinion, the most cost-efficient barter for a frost nib is blue book + 2 ambient mana sponges since the sponges can be obtained from the Under the Hand dungeon which is quite easily solo'd at 50. However, as it turned out, farming the sponges myself was very slow and buying them from other players mostly very expensive, so combined with the slow flow of blue books, I started disliking ice magic quite a bit around level 60...

The glowy yellow crystals are pretty easy to get. With high mining, you can farm the yourself, or you can buy them from other players for around 900 (not sure of the current price again).

Maybe the simplest fix is to make sure that fire mats are not used in crafting things like nimble boots. That is probably the reason for the price wars aside from greed.

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Originally Posted by Tagamogi

I think it's worth pointing out that training any high level ability is very expensive - when learning from an NPC, expect to plop down 17K or so for learning a single level 65 ability. I'm too lazy to do the math but I suspect that training magic abilities can actually be cheaper than training a regular skill. The problem with magic research is just that you need specific items instead of money and you can't pick what you learn in exchange.


Orcish Spell pouches are not a fun item to solo farm at lower levels - the lowest level orcs are in the Kur Mountains and they are pretty nasty and have a tendency to drag lots of their friends into the fight. However, the spell pouches also drop from high level orcs which is great because lots of max level players run Gazluk Keep, collect spell pouches and then want to get rid of them. I don't know the current prices but I remember picking up a bunch at 400 each which is vastly cheaper than they were in the pre-Gazluk days.

Then you get to 55 and ... frost nibs. I've never seen one drop, so no clue where they come from. I bartered for all of mine. The faded blue books weren't too bad; it took me some time but I was able to get them for 700-900. I also got some as drops from worms and rakshasa in Ilmari. So, not really bad, just that I needed so many of them.

The glowy yellow crystals are pretty easy to get. With high mining, you can farm the yourself, or you can buy them from other players for around 900 (not sure of the current price again).

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So one reason I went back to fire was the fact that I could learn it "for free". Most people have issues on the plateau but I can accidently aggro the general and face tank him a bit before running away to tell the tale. Needless to say I can kill the yard trash there 5-6 at a time.

Most people will likely spend a few hundred thousand buying a few books or runes here and there so it ends up being way more expensive. This too is something for Citan to consider in that Fire/Ice can essentially be learned for a fraction of the cost of other abilities *IF* you can farm the mats. I think of a "cheap" book when I see one for under 2k and most are priced around 4-5k each.

Fire/Ice are unique in that you can kinda cheat the system about which spells you get (you can do the research out of order and prevent yourself from learning say spell level 4 so that you cant learn the tier 5 and have a better shot at fireball/firebreath).

I farmed some orcs for a bit when I was 50... it wasn't easy but I wanted to do it so I struggled and killed them slowly. You cannot meanwhile farm lvl 70 mobs at lvl 50 with meh lvl 50 gear. I'm not saying ice is realistic in how you get the pouches either. I think there needs to be some lower orcs to farm for a pouch but have a drop rate near 1-50. Maybe add some undead orcs with rare spell pouches somewhere in a dungeon? Or maybe some of the yetis from the 2nd floor of the yeti cave could drop them on a more rare basis than orcs.

Nibs do not drop so far as I know and are barter only. For some reason Ice also needs yellow crystals which from what I gather have been selling for around 2k recently (not sure if that was because of reroll week or what).

One thing that might be feeding into the cycle of greed is the casino payout. If you do the daily every day you can probably buy one rune or nib. You need 24 nibs and ~45 runes. Ok sure that will take a long time to pay off but a devoted player could eventually get them all that way and make steady progress. I gave up on this game previously when there was no casino because there was no way for me to make steady progress (looking back at where I was in the game then vs now).

Is that healthy for the game?

I would be 100% ok with fire/ice costing more for the research unlock but runes/pouches being easier to get. Maybe that's what I'm asking for with this thread. Looking at fire from a development standpoint it is too inexpensive for a well geared player to farm and simultaneously too hard for a lower level player to farm with appropriate level/gear. Note that it isn't going to be a snap your fingers kind of event to get the runes/sand/etc overnight either.

The last abilities for mentalism are all around 17k each. But the ice/fire research unlocks are dirt cheap even up to 70 because they are part gated. Someone noted that a combat class costs you like 350k to purchase (skills+ the 2 uncap costs). So far Ice looks like it will cost about 150k for everything. The downside is that it is ice magic. Just kidding - Ice is a cool support I wish more people were willing to use. Is there any class in the game with a strong aoe root/freeze, single target mez, and the ability to nerf a boss (massive rage increase needed to use rage ability + massive hit reduction debuff).

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Originally Posted by Golliathe

Maybe the simplest fix is to make sure that fire mats are not used in crafting things like nimble boots. That is probably the reason for the price wars aside from greed.

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Oh, I didn't realize they were used in that. Yes, that seems like a likely reason for the price hike - much greater demand now than just a few people trying to level fire magic. I also remember that magic sand used to be a great barter item for my fire magic - back in the pre-casino, pre-dangerous damage recipe days.

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I would be 100% ok with fire/ice costing more for the research unlock but runes/pouches being easier to get.

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I agree with that 100%. I like the concept of doing spell research with rare components in principle but in practice it feels mostly like a tedious grind to me. The game doesn't reward you for being a studious fire mage, it rewards you for using out-of-game resources (Wiki) and non-fire magic skills, whether that's higher level combat skills for farming or real life patience "skills" for camping the vendors.

I think I'd like fire/ice magic better if any of the following were true:
- fewer research materials are required
- more different research materials are required. Rather than requiring runestones in 4 different spell recipes, only use them in 1 or 2 recipes. That way, if there is a sudden runestone shortage in the game they are only a frustrating problem once and not over and over again.
- have the research materials be farmable solo and at level
- have some magic-specific way of obtaining the items. E.g. have the fire magic trainer give out a quest repeatable every x days that rewards an item needed for spell research. The quest could require a certain minimum level in fire magic or it could require fire magic to be used as part of the quest
- have key abilities trainable for cash, and use research just for enhancement (similar to the fire/ice magic abilities obtained from the yeti cave quest maybe)

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For some reason Ice also needs yellow crystals which from what I gather have been selling for around 2k recently (not sure if that was because of reroll week or what).

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I'd still rate the crystals as easy, just because with high mining you can get an infinite supply of them yourself and don't need to fight other players for spawns or rare drops. Since you don't need the crystals until level 65, it feels to me like they are about the one magic research component that is at a reasonable level. (Well, maybe bat guano, but since it now drops in a level 40 dungeon, that one feels possibly a bit too easy.)

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Ice is a cool support I wish more people were willing to use. Is there any class in the game with a strong aoe root/freeze, single target mez, and the ability to nerf a boss (massive rage increase needed to use rage ability + massive hit reduction debuff).

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Oh yes, I quite like using ice magic. It's a bit on the shelf for me right now while I'm leveling other stuff but I'm looking forward to going back to it one day.

What about bartering with the sand seer for tattered red books? You can get these from scrolls on the ground and do that without fighting in rahu if you pay for a visitor's permit - also they drop off of rakkie in ilmari in higher quantities than explosive runestones - that's how I worked up my FM skills at least.

Other skills have to find scroll drops for some skills and spend over 10k per spell at the end. I understand explosive runestones are rare, but if they become too common then fire magic's progression could be too quick compared to other skills.

I wanted to throw out a theory as to why fire magic has gotten so expensive because I feel like you guys are too quick to blame price setters. Fire magic is extremely attractive for alts. It does a lot of base damage and has one of the better speed bonuses for traveling. People leveling alts also tend to have more than enough cash to buy their way up and it wouldn't take more than a couple of people per month buying their way through fire magic to have a drastic effect on prices.

I bring this up because this was me. I had no problem buying most of my fire magic materials through 50 and will likely do it through 70 in the future.

I think the best thing for fire would be to have a different rune drop for 55-60 but still use explosive runes for 65-70.

Overall it would probably be best to reprice fire and the runes so that nobody is training up fire to the tune of 500k and nobody is training it up for like 75k either.

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Originally Posted by Ranperre

Fire magic is extremely attractive for alts. It does a lot of base damage and has one of the better speed bonuses for traveling. People leveling alts also tend to have more than enough cash to buy their way up and it wouldn't take more than a couple of people per month buying their way through fire magic to have a drastic effect on prices.

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Are alts a thing?! In a game where all the skills seem to run together (and you need things like 40 levels in spider for an alchemy bonus) I kinda doubt that explanation. Leveling an alt would have so many yucky aspects..... gourmand, teleportation (recall beginnings), and endurance would make that such a huge pain. Do not want!

Fire can do a lot of damage (remember the good old pre nerf days?) but as far as the travel angle goes fire sucks for movement. It may seem like +14 movement speed is nice until it drops the second you get attacked. So the place where it would seem the most useful (running around gazluk) ends up making it pretty crap. Fire also has one little tiny drawback that can cause a lot of headaches... excess rage. Most of the time it doesn't matter but when it does you really do not want a lot of excess fire/burning rage.

Bird form is better and cheaper (unless you are more devoted and go bat/mental). This is why everyone is a druid. The alternative is battlechemistry/shield which runs stupidly fast (bats aren't the only ones who can fly over the gap in the wolf cave). The only problem there is that you're talking about at least 4 pieces of gear to make that switch. But say you forgot and left it in the bank you can just fly over annoying areas.... unless for some silly reason you aren't a druid. I mean really the downsides are near zero.... why NOT be a druid? Trying to survey without duck form in Kur would be awful.