Gazluks Keep is easier than Labrynth and more rewarding

So I havn't seen many people give balancing feedback because obviously all numbers are going to change but I wanted to give feedback on lab/GK and start discussion around it, perhaps so we end up with more Labrynths in the future.


Labrynth is a lower level zone that to me(and many others I've heard) feels harder. I have run GK something like 10 times now and to be completely honest I don't know a single mechanic of anything in there besides swap all your stuff to non physical damage to kill the gargoyle and don't hit the spiders for 8k damage. No mobs have interesting mechanics, everything is easily pulled into hallways, everything drops lots of good loot from the moment you walk in.

Labs on the other hand has several way more brutal mechanics(knockbacks everywhere, lamia disabling your skills) which usually results in more dying and an overall harder feeling, I have failed to complete labs several times even though I'm a full geared level 70 usually running it with at least another 70 and usually the rest of the parties being 60, maybe a 50. I cleared GK on my first run while watching anime on my second screen because I had to do literally nothing but wait for the meat sacks to die. You have to get keys from different hard mobs to get the chests in labs while the trash ones drop them along the way in GK.

The individual boss loot makes sense for actual bosses but when it's applied to every mob in a zone it makes it feel... off. The very first mob as you walk into GK drops loot for the party, labs has a whole floor before you get to the mass bosses and when you do there are more trash mobs strewn about AND the bosses(minotaur/giant beetles) actually feel mini-bossy, unlike Orc Guy who feels like an absolute trash mob. I'm sure others disagree but I don't think a single dungeon run should result not in 200 pieces of 'good' gear dropping for each party member.

Ewww no! Please do not turn this into world of Warcraft where only bosses drop individual loot. Gross!

The problem with GK is not the loot system, its the difficulty of group mobs. Its a problem that was discussed in this thread:

https://forum.projectgorgon.com/show...-Combat-System

Citan responded with:

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Originally Posted by Citan

We'll definitely see more group roles in the future... and we've had tanky content in the past. In fact, I can probably restore the "tank" role to Gazluk Keep with a single change that gives group mobs their hit points back. They were nerfed because when there were ~50 people online, there were simply no tanks available. Most players do not want to tank at all. It's not a popular role in general and never has been. And while it's definitely possible to build practically-invincible tank characters, they do take a lot of preparation. Lots of gear.

So anyway, right now, the monsters can all be burst-DPS'ed to death, and so people do that. If I give group monsters more mitigation, armor, and health, players won't be able to DPS them efficiently -- meaning they'll have to take lots of damage in the fight -- and support and tank roles will be more useful. Lots of tuning needs to happen beyond that, of course, but often in the past what has happened is that players just choose to solo instead. There weren't enough players to form groups. We do have a lot more players online right now... and probably enough to reliably have some tanks and supports... but I'm not sure if enough are high level yet.

So I'm torn -- I may restore GK elites and bosses in this upcoming update. That would be useful because we can see where things are at, and what needs to change. But I don't want to make GK basically unplayable again. So might wait another few updates for more players to get higher-level. (The somewhat lower-level dungeon known as the Labyrinth could also be made more tanky pretty easily, but again, pretty high-level.)


Also: as you may know, we have another support skill, the Priest, waiting in the wings. I haven't bothered getting it ready to go because, well, no grouping means no need for healers. But it can be made to go with a couple weeks' work. Combined with the existing healing builds, that will give us lots of coverage of the basic trinity roles. I'd like to add some other roles as well, including armor-removal and crowd control. It will take iterations and lots of feedback, but it'll happen.

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P.S. Knocking people off the map in labyrinth is not a 'brutal' feature, its a bug.

Lab requires more tactic but less power. It's harder to defeat just by coming back with a bigger hammer, contrary to GK where indeed you can pretty much kill everything with one or two strategies.

On the loot front, GK is perhaps giving too much compared to Lab but that's only true at zone-in. Once you reach the elite mobs section I think the drop rate is similar. And bosses give more (a lot more).

Lab is much more rewarding, to me it's a true dungeons so many different mechanics, same with Dark Chapel, i they are TRUE dungeons seems GK was put together fast not much thought in making it challenging, GK is so easy it's monotonous same things over and over, loot drop ridiculous high, one week of hunting and everyone got a full suit of yellow, maybe not modded but the basic pieces are collected, also the gear in it should be diluted, why so much gear drop, best and easiest place to farm gear, getting transmutation from lv 63 to 70 in 3-4 hours in GK run, joke. Nice phlog in the hundreds in a few hours, good thing pets don't wear gear they'll have a fully suit too in no time.

I would have to disagree Labyrinth is more rewarding (at least from a material reward; feeling fulfilled/being a good dungeon is subjective), solely for the fact Gazluk Keep has elites for most mobs. I'm also unsure if Labyrinth requires more tactics compared to Gazluk Keep, mainly because the main group I run both dungeons with are to a level of skill and equipment that we can carelessly pull large groups at once and survive. The only time the group has to pause and coordinate is with bosses in both dungeons.

Also, I feel like you might have missed some of the "unique" mob mechanics in Gazluk Keep, which is surprising you didn't notice if you ran the dungeon at least 10 times. Knockback is quite present in Gazluk Keep with the wizards and the Golem boss (which also is resistant to fire if I'm not mistaken, so anyone who uses FM is almost useless unless they switch; similar to Gargoyle boss needed non-physical and having to switch), disables are present with the Tacticians and the Golem boss (arguably worse than Lamias because it is an AoE disable; a bad pull can result in multiple Tacticians chaining disables to wipe a group, or a chain of Golem disables can wreck a group), and the actual trash mobs in GK can use Pin to trap a puller and risk a bad pull. A final note, even though it's not really an "ability", is that the orc wielding flame weapons deal elemental damage, so anyone trying to tank with Staff's Defensive Stance immediately hits a big obstacle because they no longer can absorb that damage.

I also find that you claiming that GK is just pulling mobs into hallways is silly, since that's the exact same strategy for pulling in Labyrinth. Both maps feature large hallways and rooms you can pull one mob at a time into to get your group to pile on to. It's a problem I have with how the game is right now is that most dungeons that have some form of difficulty is "Just let the puller get spotted by 1-2 mobs, then run back to the group away from the rest of the mobs, EZ". Something needs to be changed in that regard, in my opinion.

As for everything dropping good loot in GK, yeah, I'll agree with that. No argument from me there. I would like to see the tougher/tougher to deal with enemies drop the loot, perhaps the Tacticians or something, or make the Lieutenants mini-bosses and have them drop the loot.

@Daimes, been GKing for past 6-8 months easy.

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Originally Posted by Aionlasting

Ewww no! Please do not turn this into world of Warcraft where only bosses drop individual loot. Gross!


P.S. Knocking people off the map in labyrinth is not a 'brutal' feature, its a bug.

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I have never played WoW so you'd have to explain to me the loot system there, I am use to games where nothing at all drops individual loot and I quite liked this games style of bosses dropping individual loot but once I got to a higher level where everything is an elite it seemed rather stupid.

I have also never been knocked off the map in labrynth and did not factor that into the 'difficulty' at all.

I think a partial solution to the 'pull everything into hallway' would be making grouped mobs(ie how they work in EQ2) - If you pull an Orc Lieutenant then a Ranger and Thautermage come with him because they are grouped together. This would introduce stuff like aggro control and allow more mechanics to be put into fights without having the lietenant himself just have Very Big Numbers and accidently pulling 2 resulting in a wipe(space seperate groups out more with a few solo mobs in between that can be pulled at the same time)

To use GK as an example I think the lieutenants and maybe another few mobs should be buffed and remain elites, while things like rangers and thautermages(I can't remember what wasn't elites in there, perhaps it was the thauts) lose their elite status.

I get knocked through walls in Lab. To the point that I wont go back there. Gk that only happens if I try to fight a mage in a stairwell.

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Originally Posted by Quanzhigao

I think a partial solution to the 'pull everything into hallway' would be making grouped mobs (ie how they work in EQ2) - If you pull an Orc Lieutenant then a Ranger and Thautermage come with him because they are grouped together. This would introduce stuff like aggro control and allow more mechanics to be put into fights without having the lietenant himself just have Very Big Numbers and accidently pulling 2 resulting in a wipe(space seperate groups out more with a few solo mobs in between that can be pulled at the same time).

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If I remember correctly, Citan posted that code for something similar is in the work.

Some interesting observations and perceptions, some of which do not align to my own e.g. it is easier than Lab, you don't have to concentrate, etc.

I prefer Lab to GK as it has more variety in monsters plus it feels to me that it has more of a story (& depth). Having said that, GK is fairly repetitive and linear.
Of the two, as a level 70 max crafted with augments tester, GK (especially on level 2) is still much harder than Lab, more complex and still a challenge.

GK does drop too much loot (as reported when it launched) and it has been reduced (chests now require 3 keys, rather than 1).

I have run GK dozens (100s ?) of times and I have never been able to watch anime, etc. whilst doing so, it has always taken my full attention to survive. That said I can solo the patrols, clear level 1 with 2 other guild members (excluding bosses), but one wrong pull and it is a 'wipe', even with a full group of 6. Lab on the other hand (including bosses) has been soloed by level 70 geared vets.

It maybe that some people are benefiting from the experience and gear of players who have made a build specifically created for GK?

My experience is that groups cannot just DPS in GK and succeed. It requires a blend of damage, crowd control and healing /repair with a geared puller and stunner /trapper to reliably progress in GK.
Since GK launched, some vets have literally spent weeks working on how to survive and progress in GK.

I might also suggest that anyone not focussing on the mobs is being carried by the group.
However, to make it much more 'interesting', it would be 'fun' if the 'Hook' shot mobs (using the original features) were re-introduced. Completion rates of GK runs would be greatly reduced, gear drops reduced and groups would not be able to carry people at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quanzhigao

I think a partial solution to the 'pull everything into hallway' would be making grouped mobs(ie how they work in EQ2) - If you pull an Orc Lieutenant then a Ranger and Thautermage come with him because they are grouped together.

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This mechanic, and the resulting over simplification of pulling as a 'profession' compared to EQ1, was the primary reason why I stopped playing EQ2. While I recognize that my dislike of it is unusually intense, I had never actually come across someone in support of it before.