Conversations: On groups, Druids, Dungeons, Lock Out

The 'Lock Out' system been a pain point with druid Events and organic grouping in dungeons for a while now. And this convo came up in Discord that I though really hit alot of the points that players are feeling about the Grouping changes and could be used as a conversation starting point. What do YOU think about groups/lock out/Druid events/Dungeon grouping.

I know its a bit of a large talking space for a single thread but they are all intertwined heavily with grouping mechanics itself, so lets just see where it takes us. :)

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Yaffy
So does anyone else dislike the new limitations on groups and the new loot system
I really hate the new loot system for sure
My friends and I keep hoping everyone we meet in dungeons dies so they can't steal our stuff
Rather than us being able to team up on bosses spontaneously

Yaffy
Also I miss 20+ man raids


EasyLivin
steal what stuff?
i dont like the new group size or loot limits, kinda turned me off combat in general


fortior
I get why they did it (tagging along with lame skills to get a bag full of 60/60 epics probably wasn't intended) but it's too much man


Yaffy
Steal boss drops
Like if my group sees another group near a boss then everyone instantly bolts for the boss to try and tag it
I'm also not 100% sure, but I think the tagging system lets groups KS solo players too[COLOR=rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.2)](edited)
Before if you met another player you could gang up on it, which was great especially when fighting bosses too strong for both of you
Now you gotta tag the boss before the other guy does
And if you try to say, make a party with strangers so you can share, that gives them a free chance to tag the boss
It's like prisoner's dilemma
Where you can both get the loot but if the other guy tries to grab it first (Because he's worried you'll try to do the same) then only one person does

EasyLivin
in theory that shouldn't happen in GK


Yaffy
But trying to always steal the loot first is the most rational decision because it always has a good outcome for you


EasyLivin
groups should be far enough away from eachother that they cannot steal bosses

Yaffy
It has the biggest effect in the crypt for sure
Where there's a lot of low level players running around yet there are tough bosses in comparison to the enemies there

EasyLivin
yea. i havent been in there with a low level after the change

Yaffy
That's also where I made the most spontaneous friends too when I started
Where I would be farming spiders but the mega spider was too tough
But then any time you bumped into another player nearby you could silently agree to team up on the mega spider
Which was great
Same with Ursula too[COLOR=rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.2)](edited)


EasyLivin
yea

Yaffy
Most of the time when I bumped into other players in dungeons it was a good thing, so I felt like I was friendly with a lot of players
Now other players are like an obstacle that's there to steal my loot


EasyLivin
i agree
druid events are terrible


Yaffy
That's my biggest gripe with the whole thing
Oh yeah, Druid events are AWFUL
Especially the Kraken one where you have to be ranged


fortior
druid events suck now. they both nerfed the dropped loot and the looting system


EasyLivin
yep


Yaffy
Or else like half of the krakens you try to tag in the water get yoinked from you by ranged characters


fortior
If they're supposed to suck, okay. But just make them free-loot so I don't have to rush and tag a mob before killing it

Yaffy
I was the tank for my party and was purely melee
But I kept getting ks'd by ranged dudes who could shoot the Krakens in the water while I had to awkwardly swim to them
It was really annoying


fortior
I don't see why bosses can't be free-loot with better loot for the killing party or something, or some sort of rule that if you do 10% of the damage you're included in the looting group


Yaffy
So now I have to run something ranged just to prevent myself from getting ks'd

fortior
This tagging system sucks


Yaffy
I've found the best strategy for stuff like Krakens or Droaches is to run around with tons of movement speed buffs


Yaffy
And spam ranged AoEs just to tag everything
Then worry about the consequences later
Even if you die you'll get something
But of course that'll piss of everyone else

fortior
I just kill one and then go do something else for a while, there's always parties running around tagging and killing everything anyway
Maybe it's selfish but it's what the current system supports. The party GUI isn't nearly good enough for even overworld events to be constrained to the tagging rule


Yaffy
The tagging system is definitely selfish
For stuff like normal mobs it's ok (In fact it's more generous than other games since you can still get exp)
But for bosses or elite mobs people should definitely be able to all get loot
Like, I'm guessing the point of the tagging system is to... prevent too many people from getting items? Or is it to prevent people from getting freebies in fights they didn't even really help in?

fortior
yeah some sort of damage threshold maybe, like at least 5 or 10% damage done


Yaffy
Or maybe it's to try and limit people to parties of 6 to make things easier to balance


fortior
I think it's to prevent manticores and all being a huge item pinata
people used to bring alts to manticores to get more loot


Yaffy
I definitely think some sort of effort based loot reward system would be better
It probably shouldn't just be DPS just because that would be annoying to heavy healers/support
They can probably use the aggro system minus influence from taunt bonuses
...Although to be honest I still don't really understand exactly how aggro works in this game
Although mind you purely going off of aggro has problems too
My build has always been around pound to slag so I can do a huge burst AoE damage at the start of fights
It would be unfair if people were denied loot just because someone can insta kill mobs
It could be time based then maybe
Where as long as you were in combat for more than 20% of the fight then you get loot
So some guy doesn't run in at the end while the boss has 5hp and get everything
I'm pretty sure there's already some sort of anti-feeding mechanic in place anyways
Because I was helping my low level friends with bosses in the crypt
And the bosses would always lock on to the lowest level friend, even when I had like 250% taunt bonus and was obviously doing more damage
We've actually taken advantage of it sometimes
Where we get the weakest friend to just sit on top of a cliff where enemies can't hit him and then everyone else hits the enemies in the back until they die
Since they absolutely refuse to stop trying to kill the squishiest party member
It's funny more than anything


fortior
"So some guy doesn't run in at the end while the boss has 5hp and get everything" I mean, backspawns take care of that IMO, and should they really gimp normal players' experience just to prevent the leechiest leeches
You can feed people items anyway by just inviting them to party now. Hell, party members don't have to do anything to get loot, so it's even easier


Yaffy
Yeah, I agree
But I'm just guessing that might have been what they were going for


fortior
They should just have gibbed the alts of people bringing alts to manticores instead of coming up with this, haha



Yaffy
Should have given manticores an AoE attack
That cleans up the blatantly low level players pretty well
Or are you talking about logging in with alts and looting the bodies before they despawn
Without even entering combat

fortior
That's what people did


Yaffy
Yeah, sounds about right
I miss the days of having like 20 level 40-50 people running through lab
Those were so fun
And a good way to bring a community together


fortior
Yeah it was cool

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PS: This is a conversation for all of us, so lets all get along eh? We all just want to have fun.

Edit: the text color hold no significance to relevancy/highlighting, its just the color scheme that the text already was when I copied it

I will say, the nights I've tried, I haven't had a level-appropriate dungeon run. I get stone silence; they always want someone higher level to jump in last and save them.

I really don't like the locking system. If a group doesn't attack something, it should go to the old rules; solos and spread out groups shouldn't be able to snag all the loot :P

My best run so far was with someone who was tired of transmuting for coin so I literally got access to the loot because they were there. Otherwise I'd be shut out.

Druid events are broken as far as I'm concerned, Can't get a group normally, can solo some but have to race around trying to snag something for loot that's useless and worth maybe 500 coins it's not worth the effort so I seldom do them now. I'll just do what I'm doing and suffer the exp loss.

I dislike the smaller groups it promotes elitism and cuts out the weaker/newer/unguilded players. I can see that a more tactical approach to the dungeons would perhaps be better than the 10 man mob handed approach but I still struggle with it.
When I am on I don't see anyone trying to get groups for nexus,DC or even lab are they even run anymore?

There are still other things I find more off putting though, the current 2 skill gear is a nightmare for someone who has most skills in there 60's and likes to mix up the classes often.I just can't face getting my head around the storage and amount of gear farming required so simply mess around aimlessly half the time now. Still miss using belts to farm for gear for the skills I'd be playing next also to be honest.

I normally play solo, where I'd normally run around killing what was in my way and not caring too much, now I find I need to be more careful as it seems my actions can impact other players more as any AOE attack can easily cause them a little grief.

I play lots of games and its strange that even with its current issues and all the development that has negatively impacted my enjoyment, I still keep coming back and still enjoy my time here very much, whilst all other titles gather dust and seldom see a revisit.

Yeah, I think the current system promotes selfish play instead of rewarding group tactics. I could understand implementing it in cutting-edge content like the highest-level dungeon at any given time, but it really shouldn't exist in mid-level content (and overworld content) because all that does is hinder everyone's progression/gameplay while maybe possibly stopping a few bad apples from leeching gear with alts or something.

I think a system that allows you to participate in a group's looting by doing 5-10% total damage would make more sense, or just making elites free-loot in all areas bar the highest 1 or 2. Yeah, I agree that it shouldn't be easy to tag along with much higher level players and get what they 'worked for', but right now the system is basically telling you to play like a jerk or not get any loot at all. Previously, if I saw someone in need of help I'd help them out. Now, the system screws you over with regards to loot - it's essentially telling you to let the other player die in this example.

I know I'm a minority but I like the group limiting and locking. The reasons

1. No more zergs! (sorry but yay!). The worst experiences I had in P:G in the way of grouping was Lab runs with 10+ people. It's boring boring and boring(also an fps killer and pretty please particle effects disabling option). Also boring.
2. More strategy involved and more accent on group roles. More thought put into individual builds.
3.It eliminates (not entirely) leeching

"I dislike the smaller groups it promotes elitism and cuts out the weaker/newer/unguilded players". I disagree, I am usually in a group that adds whoever happens to be around. I agree that it discourages lower level players from being carried through a higher level dungeon but that is actually a good thing imho *cough cough* leeching.

About what others mentioned, this system being okay for GK but not good for mid level content. Let's not pretend anyone actually does the mid level content in groups. I constantly farm various things in lower level dungeons (like wolf cave, hand dungeon, DC). Absolutely no groups run nexus, DC, wolf cave or Kur tower. It's full of people soloing which is a shame because they could group for bosses and elites and I don't mean a group of lvl 25-35 being carried by a 70. I mean groups of level 45ish players properly running a dungeon and learning how to play in a group and figuring out their builds while doing so. Honest question-when did anyone run DC in a group besides full moon? I bet very few though many players in the 40s level bracket seem to be complaining about the lack of gear options. There's where gear drops and it can't be done solo.

Druid events- no comment here, I hated them from the start and that hasn't changed:) Not gonna repeat the whole lot of arguments but I always thought they were just a loot fest and very limiting level-wise. I would've liked druid events that actually involved some degree of individual effort.

Something else someone mentioned in that discord convo-alts at manticores. I noticed some people multiboxing or leveling their afk friends in dungeons (yeah, I reported but still) not only at manticores. I even saw the peak of laziness, keeping a music bot at a dungeon's entrance, I saw people running 2-3 chars at GK entrance. I think we should stop doing that and actually try to play in groups. That is with real players other than ourselves. Call me insane but I think that's the concept behind an MMO. We have soloing options now, let's keep multiple characters out of groups. If all 6 group members are actual players running a level appropriate dungeon a group of 6 is just fine. Yes, it excludes lower level players who are there just for loot or exp but again, I think that's a positive.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

I know I'm a minority but I like the group limiting and locking. The reasons

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No, there's clearly good things and bad.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

About what others mentioned, this system being okay for GK but not good for mid level content. Let's not pretend anyone actually does the mid level content in groups. I constantly farm various things in lower level dungeons (like wolf cave, hand dungeon, DC). Absolutely no groups run nexus, DC, wolf cave or Kur tower. It's full of people soloing which is a shame because they could group for bosses and elites

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

I mean groups of level 45ish players properly running a dungeon and learning how to play in a group and figuring out their builds while doing so.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

many players in the 40s level bracket seem to be complaining about the lack of gear options. There's where gear drops and it can't be done solo.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

1. No more zergs! (sorry but yay!). The worst experiences I had in P:G in the way of grouping was Lab runs with 10+ people.

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Labs was a top-level dungeon. Have you tried to at-level a dungeon recently? We don't have a system of Looking For Group or any way for groups to care to even check.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

2. More strategy involved and more accent on group roles. More thought put into individual builds.

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...More chances for your build not to be useful to a particular group. There's no way for me to tell people my stun/resiliency build is useful unless they're used to playing that way.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

3.It eliminates (not entirely) leeching

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...Why was this important? It eliminates groups helping filed groups clear curses, too.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

"I dislike the smaller groups it promotes elitism and cuts out the weaker/newer/unguilded players". I disagree, I am usually in a group that adds whoever happens to be around.

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You're great! But you're not trying to level through 40s now. So your second point...

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

I agree that it discourages lower level players from being carried through a higher level dungeon but that is actually a good thing imho *cough cough* leeching.

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...But how does it not encourage this? Now it's more important to have over-leveled players in your group. Before you could muddle through with a couple under-leveled. Now a single over-leveled player is more important.

You are missing my points entirely Crissa. To make it short and simple-I believe 6 players of adequate level are perfectly able to run dungeons. Where I see a problem is people saying it's not without actually testing, it's false feedback. Maybe not intentionally false but arguments like "it encourages elitism, it excludes lower level players" are not arguments that should impact the game mechanics. I get that everyone wants to help friends/guildies or level some alts but a game shouldn't modify its design to suit that imho.

Try running Kur tower with a group of 6 people in the 46-50s bracket, DC with a group of 48-55 and offer accurate feedback. If you prove that a group of 6 is insufficient I'm sure Citan would take that into consideration.

"...More chances for your build not to be useful to a particular group. There's no way for me to tell people my stun/resiliency build is useful unless they're used to playing that way" I fail to see any logic in it, used to what? Having cc in group? Wiping few times because of not including players with utility builds is the best way to learn, you are making my point for me. Yes, everyone wipes many times, it's part of the learning curve, grouping doesn't equal "follow X level 70 player and loot".

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druid events are terrible

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because of the lockouts. before lockouts they were ok, could use work. now with lockouts they are creating a toxic environment and it isnt fun.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

You are missing my points entirely Crissa.

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

Try running Kur tower with a group of 6 people in the...

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

...grouping doesn't equal "follow X level 70 player and loot".

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Did you read your point? You just said it's riskier to run a balanced group. so they're not trying.

When a group gets into trouble, it's not, 'hey, we need to fix things ourselves or our level' it's 'let's call a 70 for fix things'. That means they don't, in fact, learn the lessons you're trying to teach them. They learn they'll out-level the content eventually and it won't matter for them to learn.

And those of us looking to group just are ignored.

Okay sorry, had this crazy idea about looting so not sure if it would help anything but, here goes.
What if in big group events, to get loot you got to replace it with alternate loot. You got the lock on the Desert Overseer or Druid Event Droach. You (Your group) got first dibs on the loot, but to get your individual loot you each got to add something to the mob, that something(s) has to be worth say, half of the value of the given loot being taken. (Maybe how much is required to put in is based on what % of damage you didn't do) That continues for each individual, group in line to get loot. Maybe it even reverts back so anyone could loot the corpse, but you would be getting the items left behind. The order of looting maybe determined by damage or aggro, after the lock group gets theirs. Maybe an option to pay in councils, or make up the difference so you can quickly get your loot if you want. This prevents powerful gear from become easily looted by non-damagers, tag-alongs.

To make things speedy, wondering if some sort of claim ticket system could be added to the above setup. So instead of having to decide right that second what to give up in alt loot, you kind of leave an IOU and the person holding the IOU gets something when you got time to decide. If you don't make a decision by a certain point, then maybe it would pull from your councils or from future loots, maybe even working it way to zero from loots, skins and meat and foraging items as you get them.

I'm sure there are things I'm overlooking that would need to be addressed. But why not be creative, when trying to address these issues?