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A shop that doesn't sell usually shuts down, if someone doesn't make a profit (and as result doesn't pay tax) for a number of days, the shop should be shut down and up for rent again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atis
@Tagamogi-you don't need to collect your items and store them, the retail NPC keeps them for you till you re-open the stall.
I'm thinking more of a scenario where i find something new that I know I'd like to sell, but I don't have a vendor stall currently rented. As far as I know, I can't give new items to the retail NPC to hang onto until the next time I open a store. My store actually cleans out pretty well when I run it, so anytime I re-open I may have 4-5 leftover pieces from the last time and then I usually have to get 20-some brand-new items from somewhere in order to make running the store worthwhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaylara
Why would they be empty? The rest work as usual, only some dudes are taking some cool spots near entrance with prices nobody would pay.Quote:
And if the price was high, then what happens if all the venders are empty?
Yay, some vague life wisdom that never works.Quote:
There are cases where every price/tax point breaks. That's why it's silly to think there's one true balance point.
Why?Quote:
A shop that doesn't sell usually shuts down
Perhaps if you didn't have 2 vendors, located in the front room you wouldn't be feeling the crunch of 240,000c a month in rent. The mechanic that you have gripe with is performing as it should. It is draining your income to have two of the best spots around. The fact that you are lobbying to get your rent reduced just shows the danger of monopolies. I always laughed about how easy it was to make sales in this game since there was no sales tax. Lower your prices and sell items that people want or take a 10 day break on vending and the rate returns to a more sustainable amount.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowina
The economy is simply experiencing a summer lull. I am pulling about 50k a day after a break of a few months. 8k on 50k is 16% . So i pay a premium of 16% on my goods to be able to go out and locate more goods to sell instead of having to stop gaming and deal with people in trade channel.
One thing that I did notice is that that spawn rates need to be reduced, OR demand of some items needs to increase. This can be achieved by increasing the useuage of items. My example items are spruce and Tundra Lichen. They both used to be somewhat hard to find on player stalls (for reasonable prices). Currently stacks of spruce go for 150 instead of the 175+ from the beginning of summer
%. Tundra Lichen hasnt dropped below 250 from what I have seen but there are vendors with large stacks of the item. A few months ago this item was in the 250-350 range and people didnt have huge amounts of it. I hate to say it but perhaps we need more bone breaking monsters in the game.
We are watching items deflate in value due to excessive supply. (bat guano used to be 16k per item, recently I bought a stack for 2k, left it in guild chest, and it has gone untouched)
Another good way of keeping supply low would be to introduce mold risk on organic items and brittleness increase on non living items. if someone has items that are past 30 days old their is a risk of losing the item. The fact that we can store food items for indefinite amounts of time with out risk of loss is... well, to me silly. I took a long break and when i came back all my food was fine. Its not like I was storing it in the crypt where underground storage could act like a pantry.
It seems to me that you are trying to adjust the economy here to benefit your store. ( No offense intended, I think I'm doing the same.) This actually sounds like a good argument against fixed-price stall rents to me: You need to be able to sell items for a certain amount in order to make running the store worthwhile and as items fluctuate in value, it may no longer be worth stocking them if their selling price can't compensate for the store rent.Quote:
Originally Posted by HardRock
Please, no. Yes, it would be realistic. Yes, it would be a great money sink. No, having to continuously restock everything isn't fun, and I suspect would deter players from coming back after a break.Quote:
Another good way of keeping supply low would be to introduce mold risk on organic items and brittleness increase on non living items. if someone has items that are past 30 days old their is a risk of losing the item. The fact that we can store food items for indefinite amounts of time with out risk of loss is... well, to me silly. I took a long break and when i came back all my food was fine. Its not like I was storing it in the crypt where underground storage could act like a pantry.
I so agree , although realistic most players would most likely find another game if that were to happen .Quote:
Originally Posted by Tagamogi
Dear mr HR, There is no economy at the moment. having 2 stores is my own business and has its reasons. every morning (my time) when 2 or 3 spots open in the main room i announce it in global chat. unlike you i am trying to make the whole game benefit from good changes while you are benefitting your own pocket. but thats not new as we all know. welcome back btw
I was selling on average 1,200 gems a week for the months I had my stall. I still survey, but what I don't do now is survey so that 1 or 2 players can purchase most of my gems, mark them up and then resell them to others. My friend that was an active surveyor is busy in rl so the market lost 2 of it's most active old lady surveyors at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tagamogi
If you've played in the past few months, you'd notice that the "front" vendor spots have opened up various times. There aren't many that actually keep their spot these days. I've let my "front" vendors go a few times now and I have gotten one of those spots again and again. Regardless of where I've had my vendor, I 've had no issues selling anyway. If you stock certain things often enough, players will come back to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by HardRock
The economy is constantly changing. Players are coming and going, new and old. Some of the veteran high level players can stock up on just about anything they want to, so yeah, some items will be less rare nowadays. Obvious reason, the longer you play, the more you can accumulate, especially ones focused on certain items they know that sell well. There's always a few items that stay pretty stable in the market. (ie: Stomachs for instance)
Just my 2¢ =)
I 2nd this.Quote:
Originally Posted by INXS
Dear Mrs. Rowina if their is no economy why did my shop clear 178k in 26 hours? Mind you that was as soon as I moved my shop next to yours. The front room really is nice, that was my first tour there. Hell I think that rent should continue to rise and not top out at 8k. As we have heard 8k doesn't stop everyone from holding spots indefinitely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowina
What if rents went up each day but was only specific to that stall. Go to a different stall and your timer is back to day 1.
Just to be clear about what you said. You are making the game better for everyone and I only care about my own pocket.. I kinda doubt that the server wants to hear you take jabs at me. Unless of course y'all do, in which case let the roast begin!
The reason i have 2 shops is because unlike you i spend most of the hours of my playing which is daily for hours helping my guild members giving away stuff... taking them to dungeons... explaining to them what to do and spending most of my councils to benefit my guild. So please stop acting like i would expect you to act and leave me alone to your own businessQuote:
Originally Posted by HardRock
and yes @hard rock you are just the same old you... bought off my winterprize only to sell it for a higher price and hog more money! I give good prices to stuff i myself worked hard to get! while you try to destroy the market and not let others the opportunity to buy stuff for a decent price. shame on you
I would imagine part of it was the 70+ stomachs that I purchased at over $1200 each. I would've and have been purchasing them all summer, for me it has nothing to do with where the vendor is located.Quote:
Originally Posted by HardRock
I thought attacking others on the forums for having an opinion or suggestion was frowned on by the devs...
Exactly Nightz, when I was selling gems in the second room I had no problem selling gems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightz2k
The point about having a vendor in the same spot is true in my opinion because then I know where to find my friends and preferred vendors but thinking the main room is a better sell than other rooms is just silly.
Such a shame players can't communicate re the game without people turning it into a verbal pvp. :(
I think this thread has wandered away from good discussion about the various suggestions. Let's bring it back to that, shall we?
High rent- slow sale. Keeping a vendor bot on same stall day after day will cap at 8k if having a vendor and you can't even make 8k back a day then it could be that items being sold are either in the medium/low demand and/or overpriced, the market is always changing and thats true but if you want to make money all you need to do is sell cheese, gems and stomachs. Those items are high demand anything else you selling then you taking a gamble.
As I've stated before there are so many things to do in PG, one of the reasons I love it, I tend to get side-tracked easily. One of the areas I forget about is gourmand. The evening the servers went down I didn't want to start any new projects so I decided to spend some time taste testing the vendors that sell food items. I had a blast doing it!
I don't spend a lot of time "in the PG kitchen," in other words I've been slowly lvling cooking but don't overly pay attention to all the food details. I have no idea how time consuming and expensive it is to make the various food items so I don't know if those vendors are profitable, but I sure do like seeing them.
I've heard others bring up the topic of gourmand and the variety of food items. Any thoughts or feedback from those experienced with it? (I don't mean cheeses.) Is there anything that would help encourage more food vendors, etc?
I kind of like the idea of a food court.
I definitely hope that those who do enjoy specializing in food continue to do so and I like when they make food related names for their shops, it makes it easy to remember you! :)
Well, you wouldn't want the timer to run while the player was offline, of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tagamogi
And lots of times I give up searching vendors after searching the first room. It takes alot of time to visit each one, especially with how I have to move the character around the NPCs with multiple different keystrokes.
@Khaylara
You might want to learn basics of economics first, like kindergarten level at least. Start with costs topic.Quote:
Because that's how businesses work, you can't sell=you're out.
if market spot has potential value and standing there costs you pretty much nothing (because nobody buys your overpriced stuff and entrance fee is negligible), you can stay there forever.
You might want to learn the basics of social behavior (and literacy). This thread is called HIGH RENT, SLOW SALES so "standing there costs you pretty much nothing" does not apply. You're welcome, I just deciphered the thread title for you. Wasted time since you only wrote a random reply just to try a personal attack. ByeQuote:
Originally Posted by Atis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaylara
Besides thread name there are also few pages of text, you might want to read those before commenting, if your literacy level allows that much. Especially Crissa's suggestion to make fee tiny and taxes - high. Which I was answering. You're welcome, I just deciphered the the mystery of reading power for you. Wasted time since you only read thread name and wrote a random reply just to try nitpick on something way beyond your understanding. Bye.
Any further negative comments directed at a player will result in being removed from this thread. Please keep on topic and keep responses constructive.
My suggestion was that the fee and tax needs to vary based upon the economics of the situation. One example was that a low fee and high tax would invite more stores to exist. But if there were enough stores, you might want to raise the fee to increase churn. A high fee, though, might block lower level or mid-level items from being posted; they wouldn't be profitable enough. In that case, a tax would be preferable, as it would hit the profit margin of high and low end items similarly.
But the market changes based upon available coin drops, playerbase, and player concurrent online peaks and troughs. That might mean making one (tax or fee) higher than the other; or that might mean making both higher, or lower. They have different effects on play, and those effects are what I was referring to.
So no, I did not make a specific suggestion that there be a low fee. I took part in a discussion of the effects of those game mechanics. ^-^
I was answering to that.Quote:
The tax would be a way to keep the entrance fee low
Making auto-ajustable fee/tax system effective and fool-proof would probably take more time and effort than making the game itself, devs are not economics experts afaik. And manual adjustments should be rare to let players feel some stability on market.
What were you answering? Because I wrote this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Atis
Because situational economics changes means no one formula will work. The formula will need to change based upon population, drops, and market conditions. Different tools - like surcharges and ranked fees or whatever - can be employed to different effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crissa
This is my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crissa
I did not say anything like that. I did suggest some of it could move based upon how many stalls are occupied; that wouldn't be difficult or hard for players to predict.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atis
Maybe. Without warning or pattern, changes can seem arbitrary and unfair. But it's not like they're tinkering with the numbers each week without warning. And we already have in-game mechanic weekend bonuses for essentially random things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atis
The devs should tinker with the game to get the output they desire. And we should give them feedback if the marketplace isn't giving the economic incentives to sell the things we as players want it to. And many of us have had decades of experience playing various games, making games, running games. So we should offer up that experience. It's part of community.
You're right. I don't expect a foolproof system. That would be silly!
Quick question - any vendor selling masterwork dense arrows?
Should be one in room A, last stall on the right side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakau
I quoted the part I was answering to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crissa
If it's auto-adjustable, it should have damn good algorithm, which devs wont make within reasonable time. And manual changes will look like devs whims, making any economy planning unreliable.Quote:
I did not say anything like that. I did suggest some of it could move based upon how many stalls are occupied; that wouldn't be difficult or hard for players to predict.
So no, I would suggest to not change fee and taxes all the time. Merchants that can be placed anywhere (except abusable spots) would solve this issue better.
How is that any different than messing with the prices?Quote:
Originally Posted by Atis
You still haven't said why it would be back for the prices to vary. Or where I said it had to be automatic.
And varying the price - so that the first stall is cheap and the last stall is more expensive - is not even a fancy or un-thought of algorithm. It's literally what they do at Pike's Place Market. The more stalls are reserved, the higher the price will be to keep the stall. That market opened in 1907. This is the example I was thinking of.
When designing a game, you're playing with the very rules which encourage or discourage player actions. Taking or learning from examples in the real world - from markets to stadium seats' pricing - is one way of doing that without reinventing the wheel. And yet, many times you might have to. Economics is often called a very soft science because the very pool of actions will change depending on information and experience. An experienced pool will have very different reactions to a set of prices than an inexperienced pool of actors. So over time, both the buyers and the sellers have to shift their target around.
Which means literally that there is no one price; that 'right' price will vary; and it won't be just a matter of numbers to get the right price.
The number of vendors available on different days of the week will vary because the game does, in fact, have 'prime times' based upon the population of players. Trying to maximize and entice vendors to stick around and offer things is in itself a game for the devs to play. A game which has a 'right' answer that will never be exactly the same, as the players wil game right back at them.
And that's how economic incentives work!
In all ways possible? Messing with prices is constant extra work for devs, allowing merchants everywhere is one-time work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crissa
>You still haven't said why it would be back for the prices to vary.
I did in my previous post, the one you are answering.
> Or where I said it had to be automatic.
I never said you did. I covered both options - automatic and manual.
Real worlds practices are not applicable here mostly, players don't earn money to live, they just play. Incentives are different from the start to finish. Examples from older open world MMOs are more relevant.
>And that's how economic incentives work!
Not in game. Only incentive to make money is to buy skills. And it's more reliable to just grind money with combat skills without interacting with other players, something impossible in real world. How much players do you know that took some tradeskill to make money? It's totally opposite of real world, where trade is mostly about money and money are made by interacting with other people. Only most basic economics principles are the same, all conditions are different, so it makes no sense to apply something from real market.
I guess if after a new layout is in place, if there are still first/second/third rooms, rent could fluctuate on location. Closer to entrance = higher daily upkeep cost.Quote:
Not only that, but the rooms were intended to be sorted by what was sold! There is an underlying economic structure here and it's designed to avoid people monopolizing that front room. [That said, there's no good reason to have the other rooms sectioned off the way they are; there doesn't need to be "second" or "third" class rooms. THAT can be changed by geographically rotating the walls.
My fear is for when people get 2 accounts and start swapping the merchant between them - forever holding it in place while also keep their rent low. Perhaps there's nothing that can be done to prevent this, but I guess in that case I'll just take solace in the fact that there are more important things in life. lol
I've seen this sort of monopoly control in room E there's 4-6 vendors, is it the same person or a few from same guild not sure but prices across all of them are the same.
There is no option of 'not messing with pricing'. The economics and pricing has to be messed with. Otherwise it will fall off the balance that it's at, one way or another, and then die.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atis
Your statement 'not in game' is completely bs. Literally if grinding is easier to get money than the stores - the stores will die. That's economic incentives. It's not an argument against them.
The only reason for people iRL to accumulate money is the same as the ones in game: To perpetuate playing.
You are welcome to try to not perpetuate playing with 0 money for a month in game and IRL. Would end up way better in game. Then you can taste the difference in incentives, literally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crissa
You can play just fine without giving or getting any money from other players. You wont live long doing same irl. Not exactly comparable reasons to participate in market.
Multiple MMOs live without direct price control just fine. Only games that would suffer from poor markets would be ones where crafters are rare and you cannot do a thing without crafting stuff. In PG everybody except perma-animal players can be a crafter with multiple specs and items don't deteriorate. Market can die and revive once a week and it would be fine.
There is no "if", grinding is a better way to make gold, and stores live, not as a necessity but as a side activity, hobby sometimes. Thats perfectly normal for PG, it's a hangout game with zero competition or survival elements.
All that mush about "fall off the balance and die" cant happen in game where is no balance and nowhere to fall from. You need to build active market first and for that you either limit players in many ways to force them to trade or make trading so easy and convenient it's just silly not to participate. Limiting players is against PG concept and what could be more convenient than having player owned vendors around the world with low fees and loose time limitations?
Okay, I'm done talking to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atis
There is just nothing in your posts but repeated misreading.
If you have no coin in game, you don't get new abilities. As you deftly pointed out. You'd start having trouble making food, keeping your pockets clear, crafting, questing. At least you don't die, but without coin, you will certainly do that more.
If you want to continue arguing, go ahead. But you again pointed out why there is no one single true balance point, and the devs will have to mess with the economics - and in fact, do mess with the economics all the time with their application of drops, fees, etc.
i lurk a lot, play the game from time to time, played plenty of MMO's with personal vendors and played games without, one thing i always wanted to do in AC1 was set up a shop selling wares to peoples, but it was a naive thing to think back then.
having grown up watching mmo's evolve in strange ways, i couldnt help be think that the AC1 vendor system (sold items become stock of the vendor) was a really clever way of doing it, sure it could have done with a better interface (one long continuous bar of goods, poorly organised with no search ability was time consuming to look through in busy areas) but it did the trick, Players got their worth for the items, vendors sold them on, no loot lost or at least no useful loot lost.
now i understand these days that is essentially what auction houses do but it really doesnt have to be as complicated as that, you could even have some clever maths thrown in where the vendor reacts like a player.
you sell/give stock to a vendor, he has a base price and markup that he sells things at, the more of a certain item he has the lower his markup is (supply and demand yeah?) conversely he also has a markdown that he buys things at, the more of an item he has the less he buys it for.
the vendor still has to pay "rent" after all, this can be represented by stall/shop, even to the point of not having a vendor there to sell anything and you having to front the guy in the first place just so he can get a stall/shop running, but having a single guy or a few of them selling ALL players items makes it less crowded and easier to manage, skills in haggling and other financial concepts would result in you getting more money or paying less for your items.
"successful" vendors could then branch out, have more assistants, bigger, fancier shops, perhaps even multiple premises in different cities which share stock, the prices would be controlled by the fact that players want to make the most out of their sales, they will sell to the vendor offering the most and of course would buy from the ones offering the least, i'm sure they would then be a valuable trade market going on.
obviously this is just a ramble and not a fully thought out idea, but i always find masses of player run stalls to look "a bit shit" in games, especially if they are able to put them anywhere they want, i know this has a market hall, but still ... stall after stall after stall probably selling more or less the same stuff, no one has time for that.
tl:dr - player owned stores, Bad, NPC run stores supplied by players, Good.
Pff, "Ingame market works like IRL one!" - "Not it's not, here's why" - "Repeated misreading!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Crissa
You get coin from farm, market can be ignored. If you change that, it's still no biggie. Ye, you don't get abilities, so what? Will you die? will you be unable to do stuff, if already have bunch of abilities? There is no rush to get coin at any cost.
Repeated misreading! I said devs DON'T need to mess with economics if market gets fixed, they need to mess only if market is broken and requires crutches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crissa
Wouldn't that reinforce self-playing game part? Less control at player hands, smaller part of economic is player-run etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadee
That's like saying you can get coin by working in a factory/fishing/playing music on the street instead of owning a store. Of course it exists, but that isn't a feature that makes the market forces less like reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atis