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Let me try a more direct question. Is there anybody feels that mentalism healing is on par with priest? (we can rotate through all the options one by one).
Consider 3 categories:
1. Number of heals and power of heals
2. Utility abilities (including rez)
3. prevention/removal abilities
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golliathe
Don't argue against one specific situation by bringing up another situation, especially when I have addressed both. You'll only run a discussion around in circles if you jump back and forth and ignore what doesn't fit your narrative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Golliathe
See? This is the problem with your arguments. Cutting out everything and choosing only the part that you think is supporting your argument even when it really doesn't. First off, he said "You are right in your reasoning that thick skin is still decent because it provides as much mitigation as several hundred armor." So how is that bingo when your argument was that skin is worthless? And second of all, armor disappearing in a single hit or two means skin is even that much BETTER than armor since skin won't disappear after getting hit. So you're saying the issue with skin is because armor can disappear really fast? That makes skin even more important right? What you quoted as "bingo" does not support what you have been saying at all. Anyway, I give up trying to make sense of this. Rant away. Peace out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Golliathe
If I want to heal, I'll choose Priest over any other skill (Note: I'm not druid). Then I'll pair it with another skill that can heal. I use Pyschology, but Mentalism would work, I just prefer the former. Someone mentioned Pig, it would probably be the best second skill (again, I can't comment on Druid).Quote:
Originally Posted by Golliathe
I don't think that makes Priest particularly OP. One of the skills has to be the best choice for the majority.
For strong healing I use Mentalism /Druid as it provides great AOE Healing (+ armor and power regeneration) with 3 large instant heals.
I consider Pig to be 'better' for group work, but as we can't have Pig /Druid, I use Mentalism.
With Mentalism /Druid, I am also consistently third highest damage on GK group runs.
Regarding grouping skills, I have found that they all add value and have their place and a group with priest, Bard, druid, BC and Mentalism skills in it is exceedingly strong.
As mentioned earlier, priest is the only healing skill that I don't use for healing - mainly due to the extended casting times and the near certainty in GK that you are going to be interrupted whilst casting.
To be honest I prefer druids over priests when it comes to healing for versatility becuase when you go down deep into gazkeep sometime those eyeball things can rek your entire day up and cut the raid short I would prefer aoe heals to anyone nearby will get healed no targeting requiredQuote:
Originally Posted by poulter
That is what almost everyone does; thank you for making that point. When one skill is better than every other skill at doing something ... it just might be better?Quote:
Originally Posted by Niph
Necro:Fire::Mental:Priest
Most people agree rather universally Necro sucks. This largely has to do with pets universally being in a bad spot and there is a very recent discussion about it in the necro feedback thread.
Fire is godly when compared to necro. I think fire got overtuned with the molten veins damage (probably needs base damage reduced by 60% and mods just give a flat bonus after effect to be about half of what it is now) but is otherwise a good example of a well tuned class. It has high damage but most mobs are resistant to that damage. Additionally the skill makes lots of rage and that can make some fights way more difficult. Fire can't heal itself and it even has a completely worthless pet! Ok that's not 100% true the firewall is fantastic for warming you up in cold areas. Fire even has an out of combat sprint and necro doesn't.
I am suggesting priest is even more overtuned relative to mentalism (and the other healing options) when compared to fire and necro.
If I were dead wrong you would see lots of non-priest healers with another secondary. The fact remains that most people leveling to be a main healer pick priest. Why? Because it is hands down the best choice.
There is a big difference if you compare two skills and say one is 8/10/8 vs 6/6/9 (healing,utility,damage) comparatively to saying this class over here is a 9 for dps and this class over here is a solid 8.5 for damage. But in this case comparing priest to mental it is more of the first comparison than the second.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niph
My argument is that for healing group purposes priest makes mentalism look like a poor choice by comparison. Here are some undeniable facts comparing the two classes:
1. Both skills have an epic attack and can be setup to be a good damage dealer.
2. One skill has a rez the other doesn't.
3. One skill has the ability to remove any nasty debuff you encounter and the other has nothing.
4. One skill has 4 heals while the other has 2 (and some other skills that lock each other out - which can sometimes heal).
5. The only thing mentalism does better are group buffs like adrenaline wave and power wave. But using those waves messes up your healing potential so be careful using them! (note: priest does not have this inferior design problem)
Didn't someone just finish explaining that power isn't an issue most of the time? Let us remember that priest can have built in power regen when not getting hit (aka self power wave).
Considering that % boosts also just got nerfed hardcore I think we can see why Adrenaline wave is an inferior design.Adrenaline wave is completely flawed because unless you literally designed the perfect team in mind you would never have the right mod on your adrenaline wave (unless you were playing mental/hammer : Psi Adrenaline Wave increases all targets' Electricity damage +8% for 20 seconds, Psi Adrenaline Wave increases all targets' Crushing damage +8% for 20 seconds. Note people ALSO forget to think about those mods when they look at the old hammer setup - it was very easy to stack way too much % damage increase).
In another thread I compared two city of heroes power sets that did the same thing and one was just better. I will repeat the idea that it is poor design to have one skill be a 9 (darkness) when there is another option available that is no better than a 4 (poison). It is 100% not ok to have two game career skills to be so inherently imbalanced. You end up with everyone picking option A over option B.
Where is the inherent downside of priest? It is a relatively new power that currently really doesn't seem have an Achilles heel relative to the other options.
Bard has position issues and limited direct healing.
Bc has position issues, no rez/epic attack, and limited direct healing (depending on golems mood)
Mentalism effectively does everything you *want* to do as a healer worse than priest.
Druid and Pig get paried with priest very often - much more so than the above three options. Why is that? What is that saying again about the path of least resistance?
I don't want to be rude, but you keep saying "Priest is overtuned" over and over again, even though many people have refuted your points many times. It doesn't matter how many times you say it, it doesn't suddenly become true just because you repeat yourself. The only thing you might do is mislead some people who don't know better.
The fact that you keep stating the exact same reasons why you believe priest is the best even though people have stated why your reasoning isn't a valid reason just shows you don't want to listen to other people. It's fine to have your own opinion, but it is hard to believe you want a real discussion when you are clearly ignore factual statements about why you're incorrect.
For example, you are still stating that epic attacks are inherently useful and powerful when it has been brought up several times that epic attacks are not always useful. I even used Agonize as an example of a poor epic attack in group play and you brought it up again stating that it's good just because it's labeled as an epic attack. Not only that, but now you have gone from saying Priest's ability to cure poison and broken bones is too good to straight up "Priest has the ability to remove any nasty debuff you encounter" when people have told you how pointless those two abilities are. This clearly tells everyone who has been trying to argue with you that you aren't listening and are just doubling down.
I don't even completely disagree with you, I think priest is a great skill and very useful. But I disagree with basically everything you've commented about the skill. The majority of your argument comes from already believing you are correct. For example you give arbitrary ratings to different skills, and then argue based on the assumption that your ratings are correct even though you have not given any sort of metric on what these ratings are based off of. For example:
You claim this rating is because of things like more healing and damage, but you clearly have not measured it. If you could provide some sort of metric to which you based these ratings on (Ex. Priest can do 1000 DPS while other support skills do 600-800 DPS) then your rating system would make more sense. Currently you are just assuming you are correct that priest is better and therefore it deserves a higher rating, and then using this arbitrary rating to argue that priest is too strong. It is fine to have your own personal ranking for the skill's strength based on what you believe, but you are using yourself as a reference for your own argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Golliathe
Additionally, you claim some very strict facts which I do not believe you actually know are facts. For example:
How can you state this as a fact? Do you know this for sure? Unless if you are polling players I don't believe you would know this. Not only are you claiming priest is the most popular skill for healers, but you are also claiming you know exactly why they picked it. If you are just "Guessing" based on what you know, then it is no more valid than my belief that BC is more popular than Priest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Golliathe
It is hard to make a post like this because many people will assume I am trying to personally attack you when in reality I just want to ask you to listen to other people's comments and make better arguments if you want them to continue discussing in your threads. You've even had claims that you are outright trolling and there seem to be several people who seem upset at you (Or at least as upset as I am right now) in this very thread. If you want to continue what you're doing then fine, but if so please do not use statements I have made in the past in arguments with other people. Otherwise you are dragging me into your arguments like you did earlier.
One aspect to consider is that the game is designed to use two skills, not just one.
An individual skill might be a bit 'meh', but when combined with another (& the 'right' mods) might shine / be the 'best' at a specific activity.
e.g. Spider /Necro using 5 pets. Very frustrating to use due to pet AI and pathing issues, but surprisingly effective.
What do we mean by 'overpowered'?
If it relates to no downside, then try Fire /Staff
e.g. against most melee mobs (e.g. panthers) & if you can kill them (even if in a pack) in under 10 seconds, then an AOE Fire /Staff build is supreme.
One Staff spell makes you immune to their damage and you can farm them with impunity.
or
Priest /Mentalism - high damage, able to ignore cold debuffs plus unlimited flying
Are these performing as designed?
To my mind these are overpowered, but within the currently accepted game framework. Personally, I don't find it entertaining to be able to farm with no /negligible danger.
If Citan thinks something is not performing as designed, then it will be changed. We've seen this a few times (Archery, Fire, Bard, Werewolf). Priest will not be exempt, but personally I think that current Priest healing is a bit 'meh' and needs a review.
As I follow this thread, I would say; I am glad that the various skills are in fact different and not cookie cutter of other skills with different names. I get the impression the OP would like that. but I may be reading that into his posts.
If one skill excels in another area such as healing like the OP says. That's why skills are in fact different. If you want to play a healer, go for the best skill suited for that. If that is what makes you enjoy the game more.
I for one don't care for being a "healer" but I am currently leveling Priest and Unarmed. Using Priest as more of a combat skill than healing. Sure it may not be the best combination but I find it very enjoyable to play. Only in the mid 40's on both skills, and probably wont be a good combination towards current end game.
The game is still in Beta. There will undoubtedly be some re-balancing in the future.
Keep the input coming for the Devs.
You can click on people and look at their class choices. You can recognize most of the sounds they make if you have been playing for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaffy
Did you place characters into different guilds and look at what they are playing? You might have not done this but I have (not necessarily explictly for this purpose - but more of a dual purpose thing). Some people talk more than others but you can hear quite a few things if you listen (read) to what they have to say. You can also dig for info on people when they shout for a group for things like GK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaffy
I have seen 5-10 priests for every bard/bc/mental/psych healer in the past ~120 days. I do talk to people and ask them questions especially on low level shopping/storage characters. I find it interesting that priest seems most popular among SEA, EU and NA players; usually culturally different peoples play games with very different mindsets.
Call it an unofficial survey but it is something I have been thinking about for a long time.
It would have taken a lot less effort to just say hey go read the damn thread. But I doubt he would have bothered. But on the brightside you are here and can add to the discussion. Im not trying to make anyone mad by the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaffy
Yaffy, do you agree with these points? Is having a rez better than not having a rez? It is a simple question. I have noted that you consider debuff removal pointless. Most people in GK do not consider unfetter pointless. It allows for much faster and safer pulls of monsters. Poison removal is fantastic in a few places in the game; most of the time it's pretty crap but when it is relevant it is nice to have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Golliathe
You seem to want to undervalue epic attacks but honestly for a healer who uses 4 heals and maybe 2 attacks you can make some decent damage with an epic and one other power (depending on mod availability). Are you going to tell me an epic attack is not well suited to do good damage? Most of them do exactly that.
I'm wanting to see all the heal classes be equally viable. Some of them are more equal than others right now. Unfortunately people who have a vested interest in playing class X will get mad if you want to negatively change it (by making it comparatively weaker by buffing competing options).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarmengar
How do you justify the healing potential of a class that heals less, doesn't have a rez and has fewer heals than a competing option?
I have made efforts to say rework these things and necro might be pretty good (without even buffing the skills themselves but mechanics around the skillset). I would love to see necro be a good class; not that I want to play it.
I want to play neither priest or mentalism as a healer but it doesn't take much effort to realize one is much better than the other.
From memory (of old patch notes) & my personal experience /bias:
Priest is the only specifically designed group healer
Druid is a jack-of-all trades (& possibly best in class for AOE healing)
Psychology is a balanced damage /single target healer (i.e. yourself)
Mentalism is a group focused buffer with decent damage and healing capabilities
Pig is a variation of all the above & before priest arrived, best in class for group healing when combined with another healing skill
All the above are already viable & occupy different niches in the game.
They do not need to be equal & I, for one, welcome that they have different pros and cons.
No single skill should be good at everything, especially if there are other options available e.g. resurrections.
I can accept the entire premise might be flawed if priest is supposed to be the only full healer class; but if that is the case then maybe priest damage should be examined a bit?Quote:
Originally Posted by poulter
You can make a very high damaging priest and make it very close to a build like mentalism (using an online tool or ingame mods). It doesn't exactly seem right that priest gets to be the best healer and have high damage potential. Imagine if you slashed priest damage literally in half. There would not be a need for this thread - priest would heal more but it would suck at damage. Note I am not saying that should be done I just wanted to point out what I see to be a flaw with priest : it has high potential for damage, it can be built to heal super well, and has nice utility options (not necessarily all at the same time). You cannot say the same for any of the other classes in this thread.
I am fully understanding that maybe we don't have the full picture. Mentalism for example might have way more damage if crits can go much higher via level 100 or 125 phrenology.
Consider for a moment the fact that we might get weather witch in the near future (some were hoping for this patch). Imagine if it ran fast in combat, could fly, had great potential to build AoE as well as single target and because it has a weather element could rather easily ignore cold effects. That would be a terrible power creep as it would pretty much 100% replace fire. When you play as priest, and play along priest when compared to other classes you can see that maybe something is amiss.
Suppose for a moment all of the following is true:
1. Priest was built to be the best full party healer
2. Priest can be built to do very high damage
3. Priest will ever only be the class to have lots of removal buffs
Do you feel that would devalue the support healing of other classes? I for one feel it would as you could level up priest to 70 and have a high damage class if you want it or the best healing class if you want it.
One perk that I think we have not considered much is that priest works as an animal form. To me that gives it another +1 in terms of is this better than that when you consider there are support classes like bard/bc that pretty much lose all function as an animal. What I don't see are lots of -1's to make priest not be the ultimate option (as in my witch exmple)
Can you throw out some dps numbers of priest vs mentalism and other classes from on the testing you've done? I can no longer take these kinds of statements from you as fact anymore based on your past history of this thread and others where you've been more often wrong than right. I mean it surely can't be that one single epic attack on a 60 second recast timer that you've mentioned at least 10x right? Because I assure you that mentalism dps > priest dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Golliathe
I think the guiding principle is: Yes, it can, but not all at the same time. You are limited by having 6 spells available at a time & the available mod combinations.
The same approach can be seen in Bard, Archery & Druid.
Bard has 3 songs, but realistically you can only build for 2 of them at a time
Archery can be built as Single target damage with crowd control, DOT or AOE, but you effectively have to choose 2 of the 3 in any build
Druid can be debuffer, healer or damage dealer (via poison). Again, only 2 of the 3 are viable in the same build
To my mind, Priest is no different. You cannot enjoy all of its' capabilities in 1 build.
However, combine Archery (Single target & AOE) build with Druid (Debuff & Healing) build and you can mitigate most weaknesses plus produce a combo that can solo most elements of the game at level 70.
Are you saying then that you see no problem with priest (if it is in fact a better healer than another class in the list and has very good damage potential)?Quote:
Originally Posted by poulter
Doesn't that make competing options very unappealing?
Class Build option 1: amazing capability as healer, has rez, has other nice perks, and you can swap gear sets and be a great damage dealer.
Class Build option 2: below average options as healer, has no rez, and can be a great damage dealer.
Given an informed choice nobody is going to pick the second option (in this case mentalism). That is the very definition of poor balance.
The issue is that priest healing is massively better than mentalism (along with better perks like having a rez and being able to remove afflictions). In other words Priest damage doesn't suck but mentalism healing is lackluster compared to priest healing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarlaxle
If that is true the only thing that makes sense from a balance standpoint comparing these two classes is to either buff mentalism or nerf priest (I will ask you to remember that I don't really think priest should get nerfed. But can you tell me any game where the "raid healer" has great damage potential on par with a dps character?)
I think I presented several options on how to make mentalism be a lot more fun to play (less tedious) and perhaps better balanced.
Caution: My recent experience is based on current end-game content using best-in-slot (BIS) gear. My views may not be representative of those experienced by most level 70 players.
I do see a problem with priest - namely the extended casting /channeling times.
My preference is to use instant cast or heal over time (HOT) spells, especially when solo.
I find druid suits my requirements much closer than priest. As mentioned before, I don't use priest for mainstream healing.
As for other healing options, I find bard /druid or mentalism /druid far more forgiving & reliable when running GK in a group.
Priest resurrection spell is only useful in a group & (from memory) doesn't apply to the caster. It is useful when someone takes a rage crit & dies, but is very niche /situational plus can take too long to activate if it is the puller that is dead.
I find that Bard AOE resurrection is a game changer & is a better fit.
Plus in a geared group, most players have 2 resses each and (often) self-ress capability.
Gear:
I carry 3 sets of gear in GK and change to suit the party composition and area of GK or boss. This still gives me c. 50 free inventory slots plus a 20-slot crate.
At a press of a button, I can adjust my capabilities and play-style to suit the need.
Holy Trinity aka Tank, Healer, Damage
My experience of running GK several hundred times, is that unless the group is doing a speed run (often via Gut Ache to the second level), or still using level 60 gear, no dedicated healer is required. A geared puller using a secondary healing spec. plus two other players using healing secondary skills (e.g. BC or mentalism) are usually sufficient to clear GK.
Mentalism:
Personally, I use it in preference to priest for healing.
I also have a Ment /Psych build that can 1-shot kill the outdoor mobs in Gazluk followed by 2 lesser nukes that can 2-shot kill a second mob during the same fight.
Priest is a better healer than Mentalism, but can't match the flexibility that Meant provides.
Priest damage vs. Fire Magic
If I need fire damage (e.g. for Zuk in GK) then I find fire magic damage output to be higher and more sustainable. It is common in some Zuk fights that nearly half the damage done is from a single fire magic player. Priest can come close to this, but only due to the synergies provided by the secondary skill (which for me is often Mentalism).
And hopefully, after the latest patch a Hammer /Mentalism (Electric) build that is back on par with Fire and Archery.
And in a group setting the weakness of priest with cast time is largely avoided because you're not thinking oh my goodness I need this heal for me right now!Quote:
Originally Posted by poulter
To max out mentalism you are running 2 waves. That means you are constantly juggling cast A - Cast B which for me takes 3-4x the effort for me to do constantly compared to other main heal builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by poulter
I find mentalism not fun/easy to play unless you are just using one wave. The problem there is that you are losing potential.
I find in a geared guild group not many people are dying. If you get into a discipline with abilities like mez/root/snare/fear you can kill bosses without a tank in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by poulter
My motto for is that space is money lost when you cant carry things: "You pick the one right tool".Quote:
Originally Posted by poulter
I have to respect that is a lot of times clearing GK.Quote:
Originally Posted by poulter
Ok so we both agree priest heals better - progress. Can you define flexibility in that sense? I assume you mean its good in build A (for maybe flying), good in build B psych/mental, and also can be used to heal. Mentalism has no frills when it comes to combat benefits in my mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by poulter
My argument is that priest is also extremely flexible. Comparing potential builds I argue that you get more when healing, good enough when damage dealing, and you have tons of frill when healing (mid- battle): rez/status cures.
This is an apples and oranges comparison. You can build say a priest/fire dps set with -taunt gear and you will have nearly infinite power for a super high dps build that does well for AoE and ST.Quote:
Originally Posted by poulter
Killing stuff solo priest can do perfectly fine on its own with a damage spec build. Mentalism heals worse than a full spec healer and while it does more damage as a damage spec is the damage sky high compared to priest? No. I see that as a design problem.
Given the choice of two classes with rpg ratings for healing, utility and damage: if one choice is one is S, S, A and the other is B, D, S who is really likely to pick the second over the first? You may disagree on my rating values but clearly priest has a lot of heals, has lots of debuff removal and rez.
Regardless of the value you place on things like broken bone removal, unfetter, rez - mentalism has nothing on par to offer there. When you need those things mentalism sucks by comparison. That in my mind is a design problem.
What is mentalism good for? It's great in a ST dps build. It's great for flying around. It's great if you want to not have to eat food for low tier content.
It is not great by comparison to other heal classes when you consider the whole picture.
The fix to this in my mind is to make mentalism easier to play while making it closer to priest in terms of utility. How do we do that? Alter how the waves work.
If mentalism for example could just go into a fight and cast wave 1, wave 2, wave 3, wave 4 : that would be a completely different feeling of utility that might be on par or stronger.
If there were a lvl 70 mod that let you have 2,3 or 4 waves activate simultaneously when you activate any wave (maybe 2 armor pieces for +1 mod each?) that would also give mentalism some "Oooooo Ahhhhhh" appeal.
This debate is going in circles and you're just repeating things for the 5th time. I'm just gonna say mentalism isn't a healer and the class is fine. Read the previous replies from other people to answer what you just posted. This is a marathon and you win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Golliathe
Why the hel is this thread still living