Conversations: On groups, Druids, Dungeons, Lock Out

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Originally Posted by ShieldBreaker

Okay sorry, had this crazy idea about looting...

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I'm not entirely clear what your suggestions are, but I think you're suggesting a mix of loot-generating points? So mobs would have loot that would spawn for the first group, for the most damage, for some damage, for some aggro... Some crazy mix of things. And based upon which lists you were on would be what loot was visible to you?

That's a pretty cool idea. The bosses already have different slots of loot they generate; signature items, gear slots, mob type slots... And we have had keys before to exchange for loot.

Your idea kinda is worthy of its own post. Maybe break the ideas into segments so it's more easily readable?

Anyhow, I'm glad people are thinking of this stuff.

Just a couple thoughts.

First, zerging through dungeons/content was never intended and without instances it has to be controlled in other ways.

Second, I know people are playing as if Project: Gorgon is a released title. I.E running dungeons with Op players. It would be much more helpful for testers to run dungeons with level appropriate players to help provide feedback.

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Originally Posted by Silvonis

Just a couple thoughts.

First, zerging through dungeons/content was never intended and without instances it has to be controlled in other ways.

Second, I know people are playing as if Project: Gorgon is a released title. I.E running dungeons with Op players. It would be much more helpful for testers to run dungeons with level appropriate players to help provide feedback.

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1) Ofcourse not, I don't think anyone offering genuine feedback really thought that zerging would last forever. Just pointing out that the current game systems (druid events, groups locking, dungeon groups, ect.) are fighting each other in what they want to accomplish and could use some thought. Is it a game breaker and need intimidate change? No, not at the moment, but it is causing player friction and really wants that.

To expand on what I think: I don't mind that groups can tag dungeon mobs and they get locked to that group, it prevents many cases of player griefing and supports/encourages players to group up to do more difficult content. It can occasionally be a problem when more than 1 group tries to do the same content, but that is a 'amount of content' issue. This is mostly solved once players go beyond Serbule as the dungeons are large 'enough' that 2 groups (and more in most) can coexist without too much shoulder jostling.

This would bring us to what I see to be the biggest clash between two systems: druid events vs group locking mechanics. One one hand we have an event that encourages (pretty much tells you tbh) go here and help each other kill these things, or else. But on the hand, participating in these events seems to be a atrocious affair as you have alot of players running everywhere tagging things, intentional or not, with AOE or otherwise, it's just.. chaotic. It's a good event vibe, with giving a nice feeling to 'o crap nature is calling' but all these mobs are tagged so participants are being deprived of perceived rewards. So, somehow need to clarify what rewards ppl should expect from participating in events with mobs. My suggestion would be to lower the value of individual mob loot drop, to almost nothing give or take maybe a hidden gem somewhere to keep it interesting, and increase the value to people that participate. The lesser loot means the single mobs don't matter as much, the end result is what matters. Not that someone didn't get loot, cause there is no loot to be had, relatively. (I stay away from suggesting doing away with loot lock for the event as I don't know how that would play with every other mob having it and the hoops that would need to be jumped to get that to work)


2) Yes, and this is why you don't really find me doing dungeons unless I need something that is there. :) Just using abilities and armor of lower levels helps i suppose but after a point with bonuses from other skills it kinda throws everything sideways.

My point is that by flat locking groups to a 'number of players' it doesn't, in fact, encourage players to recruit people of the appropriate level: It does the opposite, encourages them to recruit the most powerful person to fit in that slot.

What we need is something to make the at-level character somehow a reasonable swap with an over-leveled character.

I'd suggest that we limit the level of abilities used in dungeons either as a pastiche of abilities or a limiting effect. Just like when you're leveling up a lower level combat ability, but have the dungeons or content do it for your. So you enter a level 30 dungeon, and you're limited to level 30 or below abilities. It could downgrade the buttons automatically to their lower level. That way you don't really have a big benefit of having an over-leveled character in a dungeon.

Some gear abilities would also have to downgrade, but since everything has higher and lower levels, that is plausible...

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Originally Posted by Crissa

My point is that by flat locking groups to a 'number of players' it doesn't, in fact, encourage players to recruit people of the appropriate level: It does the opposite, encourages them to recruit the most powerful person to fit in that slot.

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That is an unlikely scenario unless applied to True Form Khyrulek or Lomas (or whatever his name is, the ice magic boss). Groups wanting more members for wolf cave for example will not find anyone even 60 wanting to join. It doesn't encourage groups to "recruit the most powerful person"...simply because this OP player will not have any interest in running a low level dungeon.

Also from what everyone is saying the main problem is a conflict between the lock mechanic and the druid events. Druid events are not a significant part of the server activity though. So maybe revisit an older suggestion, reward participation with Dreva blessings only. Or remove the current form of druid events, that works too:P

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Originally Posted by Khaylara

It doesn't encourage groups to "recruit the most powerful person"...simply because this OP player will not have any interest in running a low level dungeon.

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I'm sorry, Khay, you're cool and all, but that argument stinks.

You have at-level people saying they can't get invites to groups because groups are looking for someone over-leveled.

You have at-level people saying they can't get loot because over-leveled people are farming the dungeons.

And your argument is that over-leveled people won't be interested?

How does that affect these observations? How does that even begin to touch the argument that set-number groups encourage groups to invite the most powerful person they can get?

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Originally Posted by Crissa

I'm sorry, Khay, you're cool and all, but that argument stinks.

You have at-level people saying they can't get invites to groups because groups are looking for someone over-leveled.

You have at-level people saying they can't get loot because over-leveled people are farming the dungeons.

And your argument is that over-leveled people won't be interested?

How does that affect these observations? How does that even begin to touch the argument that set-number groups encourage groups to invite the most powerful person they can get?

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Groups looking for someone over leveled does NOT mean the over leveled players will join.

Yes, high level people sometimes solo farm but again, my observations are based on experience (You assumed I don't know how it is to level through 40s but I so happen to be leveling BC on a char right now and she is level 39). Every time I level a new combat skill I go to DC and guess what?! There's nobody there, not a single soul, not to mention groups. Stop the crazy arguments please and let's offer honest feedback>many lower levels want to get to max level fast and they prefer solo farming or joining high level groups. Until recently that was possible. Why? Because a group had 10 slots so we'd have 4-6 high level players for Lab or manticores and we'd add some lower levels to help them get gear. Now there's no room for the lower levels in group, group members have to be of appropriate level and have at least 1 ress and endurance matching their combat skills levels.

I am max level "OP" and I can guarantee you that I would not join a group for any low level dungeon unless I'm helping with ice magic or necromancy (which I probably shouldn't because they are intentionally harder to get). I have NO MOTIVATION to join a group for any dungeon under Lab level.



edit-solo farming dungeons has to be somehow discouraged, I saw griefing happening in Kur tower (one high level mage AoEs everything and there's no room for anyone else). The only dungeons I see as a problem though are crypt and Kur Tower (both first level, nobody seems to be at second level). And it's more of an issue because some players are being dickish, not the game mechanic itself.

The health of the game can be seen in the vendors npc, since the lock mechanism/group reduction there's been a steady decline on the variety being available to purchase, coincidence but it seems like the game population has decreased. Lower level being cast out of high level dungeons it's a normal occurrence this sets a chain reaction that's hurting this game because people going to quit after failed attempts to participate at getting better equipment to improve inventory to keep up with the leveling curve. What we need is a system that has ability to change the numbers for the dungeon let's say 6 lv 70, 5 lv 70 2 lv 60, you can fluctuate a group from 6-10 people based on their level.
Before you had lower levels "leeching" now the lower levels are being outcast.

i think it's important, when discussing any of these pertinent issues, that solutions have to be geared towards larger populations. the game doesnt have a large player base now, but i would anticipate huge leaps in population when the game goes public and early access. this in turn leads to the eternal quandry: keeping the game alive and vivid for new players, while at the same time improving/adding content (as well as fixing long-standing bugs & system issues) for the veteran player,..

it has also been my experience that dungeon play so far still accommodates newer players grouping to tackle difficult content, while at the same both general and guild both seem to be very willing to have older players running younger players thru dungeons for curse-removal and tagging specific skills (like necromancy)

not sure i had any point to this other than my two cents :)

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Originally Posted by Dragone

The health of the game can be seen in the vendors npc, since the lock mechanism/group reduction there's been a steady decline on the variety being available to purchase, coincidence but it seems like the game population has decreased. Lower level being cast out of high level dungeons it's a normal occurrence this sets a chain reaction that's hurting this game because people going to quit after failed attempts to participate at getting better equipment to improve inventory to keep up with the leveling curve. What we need is a system that has ability to change the numbers for the dungeon let's say 6 lv 70, 5 lv 70 2 lv 60, you can fluctuate a group from 6-10 people based on their level.
Before you had lower levels "leeching" now the lower levels are being outcast.

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The point is newer players CAN get better equipment but this game is not geared towards fast track. This is why I didn't like druid event mobs, once people get used to gear falling out of the sky in their lap it's very hard to get used to NOT having that.
Everyone keeps mentioning high level players. I'm kinda slow to level things so it took me 3 years, it took others 6 months to a year to accomplish the same things, it just has to be done via hard work, leveling non-combat skills. And that takes time. A new player can be level 40 in combat skills in 2 days if they ignore everything else. Again, speaking from experience, I helped enough players get started to know: many focus exclusively on combat skills and end up with level 33 gear at level 55, w/o favor with vendors and w/o basic things like food. Because they only get gear via combat and skip even the content that could bring them that gear. Why don't lvl 45 people run DC? I'm no expert but pretty sure Sedge's sword is still a very desirable item that is perfectly adequate for lab.
Lower levels being "cast out" of high level dungeons is normal, I don't expect to be running wolf cave at level 30, do you? I don't understand the chain reaction argument, if people can't adapt to changes in alpha then the grinding involved is not their cup of tea. Cause this is a grindy game, not in the boring way but it is.\
There's no need to scale groups according to dungeons, a group of 6 lvl 20ish is perfectly able to down the megaspider or Ursula.

The truth is that until now people leveled solo till 50 at least then they were joining mants or Lab groups to get gear. Because of the new system that's no longer an option and people simply can't/don't want to adapt to it. I find hard to adapt to things that happened a year ago (like the belts determining the drops mods - someone already mentioned it|) but I either stop playing or adapt. I do recommend leatherworking and carpentry for gear, it's much better in most cases than dungeon drops.