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And yet I sell 20 pieces of crafted armor per day. More if I had the time to make more. And since I need materials, i buy them when i have no time to go get them. Gee, look at the economy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Azarik
Then you make some BS statement: If you cant understand the simple concept of how PVP and PVE have a symbiotic relationship I cant help you more than I already have.
So if you can't actually show how PVP is needed for an economy, just say "you don't understand" and move on.
I like it just the way it is sounds like OP just wants eveything handed to them and not have to work for nothing.
I think it's more that he is used to another game where they had PVP and an economy that support it. It makes me wonder which one and when it died, also.
A lot of what Citan said brought back memories. I played Ultima Online for a long time, until EQ came out. Started in Yew, and never made it to the capitol. I couldn't get there without dying, even with great gear. First single person could handle the roving bands of PVPers who could care less about being flagged as a murderer. And who used good gear anyways? you horded it for times when you were going out with a dozen people to a dungeon. You wore crap gear and stuff you didn't mind losing. Because you were always going to lose it. I remember something of an economy, mostly because there were merchants everywhere. But it was a bit feeble at best.
EQ had a great economy in the early couple of years. Big market places with live people auctioning stuff off, meeting up and selling in person. For my server it was the tunnel in East Commons, for others it was a spot in Greater Faydark. Then they added the hub up on the moon, and an automated market, and it all went silent. Lots of buying and selling, but less personal. It was convenient to find what you wanted immediately, no hunt, no dealing with someone , no trading. Just convenient, and somewhat boring, buy and sell. I miss East Commons.
That is literally the exact opposite of what I have been saying. There are many ways to work, but if I am crafting all my own gear that isn't an MMORPG. As it stands the game plays out like a single player RPG. I craft my own shit, I gather my own resources, I kill mobs by myself. There is literally no reason for me to ever interact with people. At most I might not be able to solo a boss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertabreaker
But I think it is pretty clear the Dev doesn't even understand how an economy works with PVP. But he has cultivated a community of carebears who don't actually understand how older MMOs worked, so I don't know why I expect better.
Eve has been around for 15 years and is 95% PVP and still maintains over 20k players. Only a few people bother with crafting and such there, but it is greatly needed so it works well for those who enjoy it. It works well in ESO too. It has great PVP, not everyone enjoys grinding certain crafting thus it gives rise to people who enjoy PVE.
Like I said though when it comes to this game you are never going to be able to sell swords to blacksmiths, arrows to fletchers, potions to alchemists, etc. I never once suggested forcing people to PVP, all I want is to have the option. Anyone who knows anything about MMOs should be able to understand having options and multiple paths to the same objective. Give a decent sized zone, full loot PVP in there, and be done with it. You never have to go there if you don't want. But you people get triggered more than a tumblrina at a Stormfront convention with the mere mention of letting people PVP, it's incredibly stupid and selfish. My only regret is I gave the game a second chance to try out crafting and such only to find it boils down to basic bitch grunt work and now i'm out $40. I should have listened to my first instinct apparently.
So Azarik, the one with no MMORPG game design knows how a MMORPG economy works but Citan, the one with years of development, including lead development, and who is currently developing this game, doesn't?
Comon man... I agreed with you that the way items drop in the game, in that you always get items specific for your skillset, creates an interesting delima in the market place as you don't need to trade with anyone for gear, but you're definitely in the wrong when it comes to the accusations leveled against Citan. I'm sure he has looked into game economics and had insider knowledge, considering he can influence those economies through design, enough to know what he is doing. He just doesn't have any interest in making this a pvp centric game. An economy revolving around pvp and its losses is certainly a game that has shifted away from pve and towards pvp. This will never be the case here.
I'd love to hear citan's thoughts on the shift away from the 'belt' design that influenced gear drops towards the active combat skills being the deciding factor and if he's happy with how things are playing out in terms of item drops, their effects on the economy, and the perceived lack of trading of those dropped items between players.
Read what he said about it. What he said is easily disproven. But you don't have to shift focus to PVP to give the option. The economy part would simply be that you could sell finished items to these people rather than the entire economy being for basic resources. It's a simple option and people could do what they want from there. Do it, don't do it but it would only add to the game.
I'm just going to say one of the reasons I am sticking with PG is because PVP is not a planned feature. I do not enjoy PVP, I find the people most attracted to PVP to be deeply annoying (that is a personal thing, and I am not saying PVP'ers are all annoying), and I typically avoid PVP in games that have both PVP and PVE.
These days, it seems like all the AAA titles are either totally PVP, or they limit the best gear for the PVP players.
As for the economy here in PG, I am at a loss why so many people say "it's not working" or 'it's crappy". Yes, being able to search of items being sold by players would be really great. Sure, the sometime lag in the Marketplace building sucks. But for goodness sakes, don't call the economy in PG bad just because it's not like the games you have played.
I just migrated from ESO, and while I still love that game, I 100% believe the North American Server economy in ESO is not as healthy as PG's. Among my peeves with ESO is that gear isn't worth much until it's level 160, lower level gear is a horrible grind to find because few sell it, and low level mats are hard to come by. Then there is the "best in slot" concept, which further skews what you do in zone, how you share it with other players, and what you can make for selling it. That's just a summary, and there are annoying facets, but I'm loving the break from this that comes with Project Gorgon.
What I am getting from the way you put this is you are saying you enjoy the game because only your fun is allowed and other people are wrong with how they have fun, so you like that PG neglects giving people options on how to play. Which is kind of a staple in MMORPGs.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoBlue
It looks to me (based on what Azarik has said in this thread and the one about nerfing archery) that Project: Gorgon simply isn't the game he's looking for, so he wants the developers to change it to be that game. The "economy problem" just comes off sounding like an excuse because he keeps coming back to PvP.
As long as i can dance for tips i'd say the economy is doin just fine.