Barl..., sorry, Brewing feedback!

[Niph]

I just finished Brewing (level 70 + 1 bonus level). Here is some feedback that I hope will be useful to devs and also other players.


Low level recipes have given me no problem at all. Finding the right NPC to obtain them, and getting the favor, follows the usual pattern. It was interesting to see who is involved in brewing, and finding the NPC or getting the favor up required some work.


Recipes require a lot of ingredients, and are a bit expensive (compared to other skills). I actually ran into trouble finding the low level stuff, like mandrake root or oregano. Fortunately for me, I already had a large stock so I didn't have to farm too much. But a new player would be in trouble trying to skill up regularly. Accumulating components consumes storage, and given the number of combines to do, you really want to get some crafting bonus before brewing beer and liquor in batches.


The most notable thing about brewing is, of course, the incredible amount of Barley you need to reach the top. I have been growing my own stuff, and used Beet Vodka at low level (and later, Rhum) rather than beer to skill up. Also, I've been using Huge Dragon statues (+10%) and "Hard Work" auguries (+16%) crafting bonus -dancing just doesn't happen in my time zone- to increase the XP I get per combine. Yet, with a somewhat optimized path, I had to grow 3380 barley to get there.


Three thousand and four hundred Barleys!


Definitions of a what a grind is may vary, but Brewing, I think, qualifies as grindy. It is a good thing that you need different fruits, mushrooms and mob loot at different levels, it adds some novelty and raise morale as you get the new recipes. But the Barley...


I was able to map all beers at level 60 (they share pattern with level 70) and liquors at level 1 (they share pattern at all levels), so hopefully I'm now able to make all beverages I could want. Most of them aren't terribly interesting, but there are some pearls and once I get a high alcohol tolerance, I should be able to get nice combat bonuses or miscellaneous effects (as well as other people: beer and bourbon can be shared).


As far as I'm concerned, this skill has 4 remaining issues:
. The "Check Alcohol Barrels" window doesn't tell you what's currently aging, only the remaining time. Mushroom boxes are more informative.
. Green Apple is not obtainable in game. For me it means I can't brew the +Max Health beer that works for elves.
. There are weird combinations of effects, already reported for liquor, that also exist in beers. For instance one beer gives +42 max health, another +62, and yet another +33. I can see why you would want that (vs +42 Max Armor instead of health), but I'm not sure it's the intent so that why I'm mentioning it.
. You better NOT do some combines. In particular, I skipped "Hegemony Lager Keg", because it takes 5.6 more Barley to make, but only gives 3.3 times the XP a single beer gives. The Barley-phobia was so bad at the time, that the trade-off of obtaining a good keg wasn't enough to make me waste Barley on that...

[Niph]

There seems to be a bug with the way recipes for low-level liquors carry over to high level ones: they don't give the same result.


I have brewed all 6 tiers (all done after september 1st hotfix). Assuming an ingredient for a given slot is expressed with a 1-based number, I brewed each time the recipe 2,2,5,2. I triple checked ingredients, and I'm writing this based on the final item description:


Potatoe Vodka of Toughness. Effect: Max Armor +10
Flavored with: Grapes, Mycena Mushroom Flakes, Basic Fish Scales, Madrake Root.


Beet Vodka of Toughness. Effect: Max Armor +24
Flavored with: Banana, Mycena Mushroom Flakes, Basic Fish Scales, Madrake Root.


Pale Rhum of Toughness. Effect: Max Armor +32
Flavored with: Banana, Blusher Mushroom Flakes, Basic Fish Scales, Madrake Root.


Partier's Whisky. Effect: Dance Appreciation Extra-Effect Chance Boost +9%, Dance Appreciation Boost +7
Flavored with: Banana, Blusher Mushroom Flakes, Bear Gallbladder, Madrake Root.


Partier's Tequila. Effect: Dance Appreciation Extra-Effect Chance Boost +12%, Dance Appreciation Boost +8
Flavored with: Banana, Blusher Mushroom Flakes, Bear Gallbladder, Muntok Peppercorns.


Bourbon. Effect: Your attacks deals +30 damage to Crone-Kin
Flavored with: Peach, Groxmax Powder, Barghest Flesh, Honey.


As you can see, there is a break at level level 40, and another at level 70. It looks like a bug, because we've been told one could experiment at low level and obtain, for a given number of ingredients (all liquors follow the 3-4-5-4 pattern) the same result at higher levels. Quoting Brianna Willer (from the Wiki):

"[...]This is tricky to explain to a new brewer. Here's an example: Orcish Bock, a very fancy brew, takes four special ingredients: one of four possible vegetables, one of three kinds of fruit, one of four mushrooms, and one of three garnish items. That means it's 4-3-4-3. Brown Ale's ingredients are different, but they work out to the same number: 4-3-4-3. You can predict how your ingredients are going to work between these two recipes, because their ingredient combinations are the same.[...]"


"[...]And that special trick I just mentioned is even more important for hard liquor, because every kind of hard liquor has the exact same number of ingredients for each slot. That means that if you find an ingredient combo that makes Muscle Vodka, you can translate that recipe into other hard liquors -- Muscle Gin or whatever.[...]"

[Shaz]

i believed Brianna when she said that going by the numbers its the same effect across all liquors, i actually did all the 240 different recipes for the potato vodka, writing down the results on an excel spreadsheet, i got corresponding results for the potato vodka, applejack, beet vodka and pale rum, that result being the dance appreciation combo of 1-2-3-3

but when it came to the whisky using the same combo, 1-2-3-3, i got the fisherman's and when doing the tequila, 1-2-3-3, i got the elite killing
the beers orcish bock 1-2-1-1, is supposed to be +armor, but the brown ale, same number combo, 1-2-1-1, i got raka max health

i don't think its the type of ingredient either, the apple jack uses squash in the second slot, beet vodka uses mycena flakes in the second slot, and pale rum uses blusher flakes in the second slot, but all three yielded the same dance appreciation.

whereas whisky, tequila and pale rum all use guavas in the first slot but all three yield a different result from each other.

i'll be putting the brewing on hold for a while till its fixed. I'm not about to do the 240 recipes for tequila, 8 cactus juices per, not a chance.

i'll also post a bug report, and maybe just making tons of some cheap ingredient liquor and then emptying it just for the xp.

[Gruffon]

As long as you've mapped out all 240 combinations for Potato Vodka, it should be possible to deduce which combination of ingredients in a higher level recipe will produce the same effect.

For example, I created 2 batches of Dry Gin, the 1st using Pear, Porcini Flakes, Panther Tail, and Muntok Peppercorns, and the 2nd using Pear, Coral Powder, Dino Claw, and Seaweed, which yielded the effects of -DMG% Taunt and Nature/Electricity/Crushing mitigation, respectively. Having mapped out all my combinations using Applejack, this narrowed down the possibilities to a handful of combos:

-DMG% Taunt:
1/3/2/2
2/1/5/1
3/1/5/2

Nature/Electricity/Crushing Mitigation:
1/1/4/1
1/4/4/2

Because both combinations of the mitigation batch contain Red Apple (1), Pear corresponds to Red Apple. Because of that, the combination 1/3/2/2 of the first patch is the only possible option, from which we can conclude that Broccoli (3) corresponds to Porcini, Cat Eye (2) to Panther Tail, and Mandrake (2) to Muntok. Additionally, we can also conclude that the combo 1/1/4/1 from the 2nd batch is correct, since the combo 1/4/4/2 would need to contain Muntok, not Seaweed. From that, we can deduce that Beet (1) corresponds to Coral, and Rat Tail (4) to Dino Claw. From then on you would make additional batches to determine what the remaining ingredients correspond to until you can apply that knowledge for recreating desirable combinations.

Hope this helps!

[Niph]

So what you are saying is that, if the description of the high level recipes had mats ordered differently, they would match? Or do you think they would match once the correspondence is discovered, but the correspondence is different for everyone?

[Gruffon]

It's a little hard to say. Just from looking at Shaz's samples, it looks like the first 2 subsets of hard liquor ingredients correspond to eachother 1:1, which matches my results. But it's entirely possible that they differ from person to person.

[Shaz]

the ingredients, (apples, coral mushrooms, green apples, etc), aren't really the issue, its the slot it fills in the recipe. here's my example, stay with me, its going to get a little numbery here

on the 3-4-5-4 combos, which are ALL of the hard liquors, meaning there's 3 ingredients that can go into the first slot, 4 ingredients that can go into the second slot, 5 ingredients that can go into the third slot, and 4 ingredients that can go into the forth slot, thus the 3-4-5-4 combo

and since there are so many different ingredients in four slots, that's 240 different UNIQUE recipes for EACH liquor, unique to you

so my fisherman's liquor came to be three different unique recipes using 1-1-1-3, 1-1-5-3 and 1-2-4-3, all three of these unique recipes that use different ingredients in the different slots for potato vodka made the fisherman's liquor.

so when i mapped out all 240 potato vodka recipes i found the ones i really wanted to make at the higher levels, and according to the wiki, every time i make a liquor using the 1-1-1-3, 1-1-5-3 or 1-2-4-3 it should be fisherman's, every time, for every liquor no matter the ingredients or level liquor, from potato vodka at lvl 1, to bourbon at lvl 70.
i just have to make sure i put the ingredient that's called out 1st, in the first slot, the 1st ingredient in the second slot, the 1st ingredient in the third slot and the 3rd ingredient in the forth slot, (1-1-1-3), every time should make the fishermen's liquor.

i know green apples aren't in game yet, so if the slot calls for that ingredient i can use a different combo for the fisherman's either the 1-1-5-3 or the 1-2-4-3.

that works great for potato vodka, applejack, beet vodka and pale rum, but when you get to whisky and then tequila the recipe goes off the rails, the formula doesn't work.

your back to having to make all 240 recipes, for whisky then again for tequila, getting your personal combos by experimenting, putting the results on your excel spreadsheet, etc, something i'm not doing

I would love for the high lvl brewers to make one of each of the liquors using one of your known unique recipes, if the combo doesn't give the predictable results, there's a bug in the system.

and none of the beers matched their combos, beers being 4-3-4-3, and yes i made all 180 possible recipes of the orchish bock, and they don't match with the brown ale

but i may bail on the brewing anyway, its only 15 minutes of hazy, spinning, skill swapping, unintelligible speech, that's really pretty expensive to create
would be nice to be able to have the effects last longer than that, maybe if your a lvl 70+ brewer, brewing your own stuff, and your alcohol tolerance is 100, you get a whole hour out of it, but if its someone else's brew, and your alcohol tolerance is 100 you get only 30 minutes
15 minutes doesn't seem like any kind of reward for all the massive grinding it takes to get brewing to a high level, and alcohol tolerance still, even at high levels, spins you around, mixes up your skills bar, and makes you feel like your underwater with bad goggles.

but it is nice when one of the admins drops a dance appreciation keg in the square, but i'm not going thru the grind to get to that, not until the bug is fixed.

[Citan]

The bug you describe is not something I'm aware of, and I definitely did not see that during testing (when I made about a thousand kegs of hard liquor). That was a while ago, but I don't really see how the system could get out of sync, offhand. All hard liquors use the format of (one of 3), (one of 4), (one of 5), and (one of 4), for a total of 240 combinations, and all hard liquors use the same result set. As long as you figure out which of the new ingredients maps to which of the old ingredients in a previously-figured-out recipe, you should be able to calculate the new recipe.

So if you have a reproducible scenario where that's not true, please report it in game with details of exactly what you're doing (which two recipes you're comparing and which things you're putting in them) and we can try to reproduce and fix it. Thanks!

[Extractum11]

As long as you figure out which of the new ingredients maps to which of the old ingredients in a previously-figured-out recipe, you should be able to calculate the new recipe.

So we do actually have to figure out how ingredients map to each other?

When I read Brianna Willer's tips, I did notice that she didn't explicitly say the mapping is based on slots, but it seemed clear that that was what she meant. I think most other players assumed the same thing.

In my head:
If a recipe calls for (3 choices)-(4 choices)-(5 choices)-(4 choices), then 1-1-1-1 (using the first choice in each slot) gives you the same effect across all matching recipes. 1-1-1-2 is the same effect across all recipes. And so on

Actual (?) system:
If a recipe calls for (3 choices)-(4 choices)-(5 choices)-(4 choices), then specific ingredients just map to other ingredients. The first ingredient in slot 1 of the level 1 liquor might map to the first ingredient in slot 1 of the level 70 liquor, or it might map to the second or third ingredient.

- It's very confusing when the player gets results matching the first system for the first 4 liquor recipes (levels 1-30), and then finds out that system is actually incorrect at level 40. Bit of a bait-and-switch, a little jarring.
- The second system is a lot more involved, and could be potentially frustrating. Once you get the ball rolling and figure out a few mappings, everything falls into place (like in Gruffon's example), but it could easily take you many tries to get to that starting point. Also, even if I personally enjoy it, this kind of logic-game is probably just tedious for a decent chunk of the playerbase.

I get that this is mostly spilled milk, since Brewing's been out for ~20 months and changing the system now means messing with data that players have already collected. But maybe Brianna could just straight-up tell you how the system works? Could add a nominal fee to it, something like you bribe her with X councils and get her to give up some trade secrets. It'd be great if Brianna gave an actual example of what the mapping between two of her personal recipes looks like.

[Niph]

As long as you figure out which of the new ingredients maps to which of the old ingredients in a previously-figured-out recipe, you should be able to calculate the new recipe.

With this additional piece of information, I was able to map all recipes up to level 50. So as far as I can see it's working. The fact that, at least for me and apparently for others too, the first mapping of old ingredients to new ingredients is 1->1, 2->2 and so on, was quite confusing. That's why we thought the system is bugged when you reach whisky.

Update

I have finished mapping level 60 and 70, and updated the wiki. Here is my complete list (from level 1 to 70, ignoring one to one mapping):



Boar Tusk -> Rabbit's Foot
Cat eyeball -> Panther Tail
Snail Sinew -> Bear Gallbladder
Rat Tail -> Deinonychus Claw
Basic Fish Scale -> Wolf Teeth




Oregano -> Seaweed
Mandrake Root -> Muntok Peppercorns
Peppercorns -> Cinnamon
Grass -> Myconian Jelly




Wolf Teeth -> Worm Tooth
Panther Tail -> Ectoplasm
Deinonychus Claw -> Cockatrice Beak
Rabbit's Foot -> Barghest Flesh
Bear Gallbladder -> Powdered Mammal




Cinnamon -> Almonds
Muntok Peppercorns -> Honey
Seaweed -> Juniper Berries
Myconian Jelly -> Mint


If someone can confirm that they must use a different mapping, I think it's all figured out now.