Not Everyone Should Get Everything

[Lord ManHammer]

This game has potential in a way but it will not last. Games that allow every player to have the same stuff as, not only your realm mates, but the enemy side as well.

Sure you can make abilities as intricate as you want but the shelf life of that kind of play is short lived. Look how fast ESO sucked and they actually have specific class abilities you can use but even that gets old as everyone uses the same meta when games give everything to everyone. Its boring and shelf life dwindles fast.

Looking around to see every person have the same several 'builds' will get old. Game will be new and everyone will explore and people will say hey that allows people to experiment and come up with a build all their own......an that sounds great.

But it never happens after content has been out for more than 2 weeks because everyone figures out the new tweek to use an then everyone but a few weirdos follow and meta meta meta god that sucks.

Races should have very specific abilities and race defining characteristics that MEAN SOMETHING.

Gender would be nice to have different traits for each.

And Class biggest of all should be VERY different and defining and this game? Just a mish mash of abilities that players will level up to max very fast and then everyones the same after 3-6mo.

Gaming companies that just open window abilities to every race, class, gender are just lazy and are making a huge mistake. The only way to make that last is to have updates every few months to change the meta or itll just be the same ole same ole.

Really had hope for this game beta testing and everything else seems pretty good, not buggy as I would have thought. But the EVERYONE GETS A MEDAL with abilities with nothing special for class and race is a game killer and certainly will kill this game fairly quickly.

Sad thing is it is likely far too late to even change that direction so this game is just doomed. Its not even as cool as ESO and that game tanked far worse than anyone wanted.

Because everyone getting the same thing gets old, creates meta builds so not only do you have the same abilities but to compete due to the last patch #31324 (https://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=31324) you need meta build adfad vs meta build asdrfas that was good 2 weeks ago, now is broken.

Superfans will just either dismiss or rage at this, doesnt really matter, after ESO im done with dull companies that kick out bland games that are already lockboxed into a playstyle of wait for the new meta when new patch x comes out. That is just lazy bullshitake. Rant all you want about this post but 6mo into the game release watch it dwindle.

Like every other game that pulls this lazy crap.

[BetaNotus]

Hopefully this response neither dismisses or rages at your post.
The races currently in the game are only the starter races, and the upcoming races will have varying levels of mechanics that match what you suggest, with abilities specific to those races. Already, characters who choose to become Druids or Lycanthropes see themselves restricted in some ways, and the same could be said about the animal forms.

Upcoming races include Fairies, Orcs, and Dwarves. Looking at Sword, we can see some changes recently made that will impact how different races learn skills. Humans, Elves, Rakshasa, and Orcs will automatically learn sword abilities as they level the skill, but it appears that Dwarves and Fae will not. I would expect (and like the idea) that some other skills will be updated to follow this race-based unlock in the future.

I can see the potential problem you speak of being further mitigated with the more specialized sub-skills the devs have talked about in the past. Rapier may end up as a sub-skill of sword, and a staff fighter may unlock the spear fighter sub-skill if they want. Wands have also been mentioned. The sheer number of combinations, plus player preference and stubbornness, will push Gorgon away from a meta build track.

As a last note, I've been around for a while, and can't remember any time where I've seen anything resembling a meta-build form. Sure, there were times in recent history where Hammer and Mentalism quickly grew in popularity for a short time, but I have yet to see any set of builds dominate the player base.

[Oxlazr]

Over-powered builds do pop up from time to time, but I don't usually see everyone jump on the bandwagon as they're usually pushed back into line pretty quickly.

That said, I do agree with the overall sentiment of your post - though I know there's already been talk of things like this popping up in the future (even for the base races, you'll be able to opt-in to certain racial features, as I understand it).

The main reason I only stop by every major patch at the moment is because I can do everything on a single character, and I don't really want to play that character anymore. I've been making challenge modes and such, and they sometimes work if people jump on board, but for the most part the game doesn't really push alts all that much right now. Eventually I reckon that'll change, but I'm still super keen to see some official challenge leagues pop up from time to time with different rules, much like the weekend events.

I tend to enjoy the lower level content more than the high-end content anyways.

A lot of modern games try to design content in a way that it's seen by the most people possible, though - I can respect that in some capacity Project Gorgon doesn't design everything to be for everyone. Some degree of accessibility is appreciated, should people want to pursue a particular option, but having a character goal in mind & making sacrifices along the way can be a fresh way to play the game.

[Ste.L]

Hey Lord ManHammer, i'm curious about your post. Project Gorgon is one of the more original MMO's out there with countless class combinations, i.e anything from the classic rpg style for example; tank (sword/sheild) mage (fire/ice) healer (psych/ment) to very unusual choices like playing as a pig, deer bat etc etc. there are numerous different combinations with a wide range of different available. So basically it's nothing like ESO or probably any other of the games from "lazy" game companys you've played.

So how long have you been playing ? if you're still on the starter island and seeing everyone running around with the sword/unarmed or sword/psych build and wearing very similar gear than yes i can understand your viewpoint. But the starter island is just basically that, i.e. the starter area and is a number of other areas to explore, different skills to learn, gear to craft etc etc.

From what I understand Project Gorgon has been built up from the ground from a very small group of hardworking and dedicated developers (Citan, Srand, Silvonus) and has been mostly self funded with contributions from kickstarter and donations. And as already mentioned it has numerous class/ combat skill combinations so basically it's limited by your imagination as to what kind of character you what to play. Sure some combinations are more popular and give better dps or survivablity but thats to be expected in any game.

Although it would be good to have more diversity in the racial starting characteristics, as mentioned by previous reply i'm sure the devs have that planned for future updates.

So what build are you and how long have you been playing ?

[Khaylara]

"Looking around to see every person have the same several 'builds' will get old. Game will be new and everyone will explore and people will say hey that allows people to experiment and come up with a build all their own......an that sounds great.

But it never happens after content has been out for more than 2 weeks because everyone figures out the new tweek to use an then everyone but a few weirdos follow and meta meta meta god that sucks."

I tend to agree with Ste.L on this, your experience must be a tad limited. The player base can't take the "same build" and replicate it for a very simple reason-what can seem like an ideal build for a dungeon or a zone is completely useless for another. Try killing manti with sword+psychology.

"Races should have very specific abilities and race defining characteristics that MEAN SOMETHING.

Gender would be nice to have different traits for each."


The current races are, as BetaNotus mentioned, only the newbie races and they still have some racial traits-obsession with hygiene, loneliness etc

Gender - hell, no, not another gender locking MMO. I don't want to be forced to play male so I can choose a swordsman.

"And Class biggest of all should be VERY different and defining and this game? Just a mish mash of abilities that players will level up to max very fast and then everyones the same after 3-6mo."

This game doesn't have classes, it's exactly meant to me a "mish mash of abilities" so players can customize their builds accordingly.


edit - just by checking out this thread https://forum.projectgorgon.com/showthread.php?634-What-skills-build-are-you-guys-using-and-how-is-it-working-out it's obvious builds are quite diverse.

[kazeandi]

I take issue with 2 points made in this posting:

1) "if things won't work as I say, it's crap"

and

2) "the devs must be lazy"

Point 1 makes you sound egocentric and immature, while point 2 makes your knowledge of this game look insufficient, as you can see from the replies so far.
Normally, I would now debate and write where I think your POV is mistaken, but given point 1, all I will say is

,,l,,

[srand]

Khaylara: I think I have permanent eye damage now.
kazeandi: You're walking a bit close to the line of taking it from discussion to personal. I'd appreciate if you could back off that a bit. You know, maybe not finish with the ASCII finger? :)

[kazeandi]

ASCII finger? :)

Sowwy :D
/10 char

[Khaylara]

Khaylara: I think I have permanent eye damage now.


Blame it on the forum admin xD I think it's bright and cheerful!

(edit-I haven't figured out how to do multiple quotes just yet)

[Tagamogi]

Gender - hell, no, not another gender locking MMO. I don't want to be forced to play male so I can choose a swordsman.

Hah, exactly what I was thinking. I'm happy to play as an orc, elf, human, intelligent walrus, whatever, but as soon as a game tries to trick me into making a male character of whichever species, I tend to lose all interest.

This was actually a point in the OP that I found mildly interesting - I think having some minor different benefits/drawbacks for each race makes sense and makes the race choice more interesting than just picking a particular set of looks. Having similar differences for gender may make logical sense, but I really hate it whenever a game decides to do that. I'm not sure whether that's because gender isn't really much of a character choice for me, or whether it's that the benefits for my preferred gender never match up to what class/skills I actually want to play.

[Khaylara]

The racial traits I think are in their infancy, they will be more fleshed out in the future (from what I understand). For example orcs will be born in Gazluk (if I understood correctly) and have high cold mitigation, faeries will be winged and able to throw knives by default etc., I can only imagine that elves, rakkies and humans will have more features added to them as the game progresses in development.
I would add more racial strengths and vulnerabilities (i.e. rakkies not liking water much) but maybe that's already planned. I would also like my chars to actually look female (@Citan, boob slider please sir!).
But (referring to OP now) there's really no point mixing feedback (and personal opinions) with offensive statements, any valid points one might have get lost because of the tone and phrasing.

[Tagamogi]

Ok, this is going totally off-topic here but I love derails and the OP deserves it anyway: I thought "rakkie" was a derogatory term? The only NPC I recall using it is Gretchen, and she has certain ... problems. Then again, when faced with a long word like "rakshasa", I often refer to my character as a "kitty" and that is probably worse.

I kind of like the current racial effects the way they are. I'm a bit wary of racial effects that significantly impact combat abilities, so the current race strengths suit me fine. On the other hand, I am really looking forward to seeing how fairies will work. :)

[Khaylara]

Since I'm cat people myself I can probably use the term considered derogatory:P I only have a problem when Gretchen and a certain skeleton use it (although technically the skeleton might've been rakshasa when he was alive...not undead that is...so he's probably okay to call us rakkies).

I'm okay with certain racial traits (like orcs having high cold mitigation, I'd add some desert buff to the rakkies so they don't need to wear the tail ring) as long as they're more of a lore and immersion thing and only offer small buffs in places like Gazluk, Kur or Ilmari and Rahu (since orcs and raks seem to be the natives of those places each of them should be able to cope better with the weather conditions from their respective birthplaces).
I'm looking forward to dwarves, hope we get above-mentioned boob slider first so we can tell what gender our char is.

[Tagamogi]

I'm okay with certain racial traits (like orcs having high cold mitigation, I'd add some desert buff to the rakkies so they don't need to wear the tail ring) as long as they're more of a lore and immersion thing and only offer small buffs in places like Gazluk, Kur or Ilmari and Rahu (since orcs and raks seem to be the natives of those places each of them should be able to cope better with the weather conditions from their respective birthplaces).
Yes, stuff like that makes sense to me. I didn't like the water aversion debuff for rakshasa that you suggested earlier though, just because my cat has been happily splashing ever since she saw her first crab on the beach in Anagoge. Starting to suddenly dislike water would be weird. I'm pretty happy to leave existing races as they are just because people are used to it.



I'm looking forward to dwarves, hope we get above-mentioned boob slider first so we can tell what gender our char is.
And then characters with bigger boobs could get a bonus to bodyslam and knockback resistance, while characters with smaller boobs could get a bonus to evasion and speed... Sorry, couldn't resist that one. Just kidding, of course.

It might be nice to have that silder at some point, although I'm really more into hair than boobs, and fortunately I'm quite happy with the existing hair styles. I did go into the crypt today with about 100 armor less than I could have just because I really wanted to wear my dwarven soldier breastplate, aka bikini top, and I have been hanging onto this breastplate for the last year because it maximizes my cleavage, so it's possible that boobs are more important to me than I think.

[kazeandi]

Actually, some nicer models than the Minecraft toons we have now would be great ;)

And lots and lots of animations. Some of my spells don't have any, like Super Fireball. None of the hits feel heavy or impactful.

All this has a lot more priority in my opinion, because, let's face it, only 1% of the potential new players coming in through Steam will "survive" Anagoge, or even only the character generation, they'll never know how good this game is.

[walpurgisnacht]

Sure you can make abilities as intricate as you want but the shelf life of that kind of play is short lived. Looking around to see every person have the same several 'builds' will get old. Game will be new and everyone will explore and people will say hey that allows people to experiment and come up with a build all their own......an that sounds great.

But it never happens after content has been out for more than 2 weeks because everyone figures out the new tweek to use an then everyone but a few weirdos follow and meta meta meta god that sucks.


.


ESO is actually one of the more populated games out there. Its design is fail for me for three reasons A) they didnt give you the same thing as Skyrim, and instead had this weird class version obviously designed by the suits currently making massively multiplayer online role playing games boring (imagine this in a Shegorath style tone). I find the model of "skill up by doing" which is also vanilla EQ too to be a very appealing concept and why Im drawn to Gorgon.

B) They made it impossible to roleplay or even just party with your friends in PvE because of their boring quest system. This is the main reason why Archeage was so fail for me, as you couldnt get xp really unless doing their menial task quests. Most MMO quest systems are similar to paper collating jobs I used to train mentally handicapped people in when I was a staff at an non-profit place for mentally handicapped peeps, I mean if I've gotten to level 50 mostly by etiher going and killing 12 <insert monster found in one or two areas that are marked on your map here> (rinse repeat) or doing an endless GW2 model WvW zerg - it sort of takes the epic out of the accomplishment.

C) The PvP zone. Basically once you got to level ten, you could just stay in the PvP zone until max level even in beta. As I mentioned, this version of GW2 WvW was obvious evidence the game was smithed by RPG hating suits who like the term "BSC" when discussing creative ideas.

Though I do agree with the OP on the idea that allowing people to be every class becomes lame on the ultimate level. The things that makes a game playable at endgame are 1) other players *needing* your character 2) you enjoying that your character "feels special".

If you take away the ability to craft a unique, special character that groups need and try to get in touch with - the game loses its interest level. Especially with all the people these days who take a perverse pleasure in zerging to max level before everyone else can and then monopolizing a server by making life hell for new players. These people do exist, and you dont see them in Gorgon right now that much because its set aside in an obscure corner of the interwebs. The odd thing is, if you keep them occupied well, they can add life to a server rather than dooming it - just make sure they are too busy with something to spend their time dissuading people other than their "clan" to enjoy the server and gather resources/form guilds/level up. Neverwinter and Daybreak EQ progression servers come to mind as bad examples.

If someone was to ask me, as I am a person who has been designing a pen and paper RPG with commerical intents for years now - trunucated specialization would be a way to go for Project Gorgon. You are already partially there with things like Hardcore armors, Werewolves and Druids, and sub-skills it seems.

Like people have said, the game is exciting at lower levels where you explore all the options. You dont need to eliminate the current model in any way. Just create branch off specialist path options that allow a person to focus more. So, you would have the core game as you have now, and then branches where a person does one thing but does it well. Sacrifice paths at higher levels in order to have a class that is especially a buffer - especially a crafter of arms or magic spells and potions - especially a sneak thief - especially a transportation hub. But avoid the whole lynchpin classes being specialists - healer, tank, dps. This then avoids the whole power build problem without requiring character conformity.