Inventory, Banking, and Travel

[Arundel]

I know this has been discussed before as I have seen previous discussions referenced here, on reddit, etc. I wanted to bring up the issues of storage and travel however and give my thoughts. I am definitely for somewhat limiting a player to make choices but I am not sure that the current balance is working and here is why.

When you start off you can max favor and keep most items you find, but eventually as you max numerous crafting skills you end up needing to keep hundreds of items just to craft stuff for basic work orders or the skills you use (tailoring requires its own bank at minimum to even remotely attempt to make money or gear out with it). Different threads, cloths, cotton, carded cotton, etc. and not just one stack but numerous. Don't even get me started on toolcrafting as the number of items is staggering. Cooking and alchemy are no better. I ended up spending almost all my time running around different zones to my different banks just to craft work orders or make a few items, even with great organization and items bunched together by what you are doing it is still not possible to craft or be fairly self sufficient without making serious concession in time.

(If the economy were more robust then maybe we could keep less items and just make work orders to get things "in a bind" so to speak. However I don't believe this will hold up after launch either as players tend to want to make their own stuff and will not want to wait for orders to be filled; or they are like me and love to get their own stuff and be as self sufficient as possible.)

The end result of this process is that we spend a majority of our time running to the various banks and hoarding items just to be able to craft. Now, I understand part of this is a design decision but I see more comments with people being frustrated by this than nearly any other topic. There has to be some balance between "difficulty" and "fun" or you end up with a game that isn't just challenging but also tedious and burning people out to get around the "difficulty" in making storage decisions.

Currently the majority of players I talk to are using alt accounts to bank to make the game playable, unless you are trying to force additional sales of the game (number of copies I mean, at launch) I would think that this is an indicator that there isn't a good balance in how much storage we get per zone. Also having your storage spread between 3 zones (minimum) makes the tedium get pretty bad.

My suggestion to reach some balance is to extend the maximum storage count for each NPC once we reach soul mates and also allow us to buy slots for reasonable prices (like the storage in Serbule) to extend how much storage we get. Say 100 councils for 1 extra slot, 200 for 2, etc. I don't care what the council cost is but the ability to spend money to have more bank space on my main account is nice and might even lead to us not needing "alt accounts" or "bank accounts" as many have. We also "need" the transfer storage that is currently 8 slots extended to at least 20. Muling items is a total chore and this isn't fun game play.

I am of the mindset that I will just end up running 2 or 3 accounts to get around this and don't mind as I have done this in other games, but I think this suggests that the storage and travel system isn't balanced and ask you to reconsider it with an alternative: in this scenario the "cost" of keeping these items isn't just making choices as much or giving up items, but being willing to spend councils (or seriously, even cash) to extend the banks to some extent. My preference is to do this vs. "making" us have mule accounts as both cost real money but one is far less tedious (having it all on one account). I am not suggesting a "pay to win" type mechanic as I hate this stuff and just came from a game where this was around, but in the end if we can trade then to some extent another account will be equivalent of just buying storage space; but more tedious. For example if the game costs $50 per account but I can buy the same amount of storage with a "VIP" system for my main account then obviously most would choose to have the "VIP" system instead.

[Silvonis]

Thanks for posting your feedback. As you know, this has been discussed many times and we have addressed it many times. The short and concise answer is that it is indeed a design decision. It's not intended that players max out every skill or collect/store everything along the way. There are many ways to increase storage but there will always be a limit. As for traveling, mounts will be introduced later in development which will help with travel and storage as they will have their own storage availability.

The VIP subscription will add additional player storage and perhaps additional storage in general. Again though, storage is intentionally limited.

Thanks again for your feedback!

[ShieldBreaker]

Yes, many people feel the need for mules and find the restriction to storage annoying at times. However, there are already planned changes to storage for the future. The biggest of which will be bags and/or containers. These will let you sort stuff and I believe the idea is it will also in some ways expand inventory. And we are not sure what other systems are planned on top of that even. With the zone centralized storage we also gained easy access to our other forms storage, although this is probably temporary, it certainly changed the storage dynamic greatly.

Travel is exactly the same, new systems are planned. The mount system is one. Also with just this last update totally new teleport locations and recipes were added, given that things were in place for part of it for a long time, i think this new system was planned from very early on. It certainly addresses part of the lack that teleporting had. And new creative systems to add onto teleporting might also be in the works, like those we just got.

Most people will agree with you, things need to change. There has already been hints and clues that changes will be made and until all the systems are in place it would just be more work to make patch work changes, that need to be undone later. The devs need to know that we don't find it fun, but we need to understand that the game isn't finished and we can look up info that changes are planned already to make things more interesting.

[Asashoryu]

A better solution to storage would be to have shared storage associated with most professional groups (alchemy, cooking, leatherworking, tailoring, etc.) along with an item storage and a general storage... then have those items shared between relevant NPCs. In other words, you storage with joeh would be the same as your storage with hogan which would be the same as your storage with other weapon/armor vendors that have storage. Similarly your storage with innkeeps would be shared with other innkeeps, your tailoring storage with tailors would be shared among other tailors, etc. NPC favor then not only becomes a means of expanding available storage, but expanding points of access to that available storage.

Storage constraints, along with travel speed, poor soloing options for some skills and skill costs (particularly the 51+ and 61+ tiers), are a few of the things that kick newer players harder than long time players. They're also choices that will unnecessarily limit the game's potential audience.

[Tagamogi]

While we are on this topic again, I have a couple random suggestions:

How about adding temporary storage for newbies? When they first come to Serbule, Nelson Ballard could offer to store their items for a month or two until they find a better place for them. Anything still stored with Nelson after that time will be sold (or maybe put into withdraw-only storage).

I think storage is especially important to newbies - they don't know what items are useful yet, they don't have favor with the storage NPCs and if they follow the in-game tip to hang on to stuff they don't know about, they will run out of space very fast. And then probably try to make room by selling a stupid random item like a stomach, and hate themselves later for it. (Yes, they could ask in chat about an item before selling it, but there are a lot of items in PG...) So, I think giving them some breathing room to get oriented in the game and figure out what items are what would be really nice.

Along the temporary storage lines, giving players the option to rent space on a weekly or monthly basis could be helpful (maybe even paying for it with certain items instead of councils). I'm not that fond of that idea since I want all storage to be mine forever, but it's something that could be used in addition to storage crates if someone just wants to go adventuring right now and worry about inventory management later. Another possibility could be storage where players pay each time they deposit and/or withdraw an item.

Something that I'd personally love is a town-based delivery service that could deliver gifts to NPCs or deposit items in remote bank storage locations. Found a piece of great druid gear that you know Silvia would love, but you have no room in your bank and no time to sail to Sun Vale? Just pay the handy imp delivery service the low, low fee of 50 councils, and they'll make sure it gets to Silvia on time and gift-wrapped. Got a couple nightmare flesh and pork shoulders you want to store in your existing ice fishing stash with Ukorga? Use the delivery service.
(Currently, I don't really use storage in zones outside of Serbule except as a temporary dumping ground for clearing out my personal inventory. Depositing items is the big issue for me there. I wouldn't mind, for example, designating Eltibule to be my flower growing spot and visiting Sie Antry every time I want to get out my flower seeds and garden. However, I do not want to go to Eltibule every time I accumulate 2 daisy seeds, 3 marigolds and 1 strange dirt in my inventory and need to store them somewhere until I'm ready to use them.)

[kazeandi]

Delivery service is a great idea. Use one of the empty houses in the towns for a post station. Maybe costs could be coupled with distance. You could mail stuff from your warehouse in X to your storage in Y, too.

Also, the "muling box" should be expandable a bit.

[Dragone]

You have one storage with Hulon we already have it implemented that we can access from other zone, should be made available to all areas. when you unlock a storage from npc it goes to Hulon that means removing the recently introduced storage shelf, all unlocked npc storage would go to Hulon every single one you unlocked in all the regions you could be in Rahu opening up and rummaging through unlocked storage from Serb or Kur.

[Atis]

As a week old player I got 4 characters with full inventories and storages and I dont even craft for real yet. I don't know what will be useful in next quest or after next patch, I dont know if that new item i got is rare or not. Managing my items takes like 30% of my playtime and sucks a lot of fun from game. I'm pretty sure space would be valuable and limiting even if current amount was quadrupled. Simply foraging, surveying and hunting at single location can easily get more loot than I can carry. If I drop most items I'll end up grinding more when I'll need those items. Not sure what's a point of that. Drop and farm later or run to Serb for 20 minutes session of moving items around - both options seem like a timesink without purpose.

Another thing that would help a bit would be an option to turn in quest loot partially. If NPC wants 2 super oak logs and I have only 1, i'd like to give it to him and not drag it with me until i get second one.

[Khaylara]

I think we will have a mailing feature incoming (i'm not 100 % on that, just a guess). The storage system improved A LOT, now we have a viewing point per zone and a search function, another guess is those are just the start, we definitely will have a fleshed out storage system. Atis my suggestion would be to take things 2-3 at a time or you'll go insane. I.e. focus on tanning+leatherworking+cooking and gardening, maybe some surveying, get those up, start tailoring and alchemy, etc. Some crafting skills go well in pairs like alchemy and sigils scripting, gardening and tailoring+cooking.
Not sure this helps but what I did-start by getting all storage in serbule (so u don't need alts) then use the remote storage options to stash things that you will be using later (for example I stored all my mushrooms+stomachs in the crystal dungeon for months till i was ready to start cheesemaking).
As a week old player you don't need alts, you need to up the favor and unlock more and more storage, that's how this feature is intended to work. Alts bypass the system, they become necessary at some point but at higher levels when you have various crafts already maxed and the need to stash the materials for all these crafts.

[Atis]

Sorry, i was under impression it's exploration game, not standard run to level cap. Efficiency is cool when I know what I'd like to minmax but at my first weeks I would prefer to explore, including trying out different skills, talking with all NPCs about their quests, looking under every rock and that requires lots of storage space. Why would i want to up "tanning+leatherworking+cooking and gardening, maybe some surveying", what's in it for me? What's so magical awaiting at last level of tanning? Ability to tan a Whooping Cool Skin instead of Shoddy Skin?

Game is not advertised as a typical grinder, maybe storage and other systems should be less about cold hard efficiency and more about explosive curiosity?

[Dragone]

Atis Best thing you could do is try to hit as many npc in multiple zones start quests this way you know what to save up for quests/favor, the rest? You might need later but for now sell, just keep real valuable stuff.

[Silvonis]

Game is not advertised as a typical grinder, maybe storage and other systems should be less about cold hard efficiency and more about explosive curiosity?


There won't be 'unlimited' storage because we are not designing the game with the intention that one character master every skill and collect every item along the way. You are certainly free to explore the skills but you will have to go about it in a way that makes sense for you with the storage limitations that are in place. Since we are in alpha, there are certain things not yet implemented related to the overall storage design that will ease some of the issues but it is safe to say that storage will be limited when compared to the number of skills availible in the game.

Typically, an MMO will limit your trade skills (or skills in general) and you will only collect mats for those limited skills. In Project: Gorgon, we don't have a cap on the skills so a lot of people have the mentality that they want to max out everything and collect everything along the way. While that is fine, we aren't designing the game with those intenions in mind - so a by product of that will be the sense that storage is limited as you look to collect the numerous mats for the vast array of skills.

TL;dr: As we progress through development, there will be updates that ease a lot of the current issues but storage will always be viewed as 'limited' when compared to the number of skills availible.

[Atis]

Dragone By following your advice I would lose rare stuff like stomachs, because I would NPCed them to clear storage space before I would know they were valuable. I would sell rare quest loot and farm long hours to get it back later or spend all that tiny money a new player can scrape to buy that stuff. Many NPCs are far from noob friendly zones it would take a while to get to them and take quests.
Silvonis I said nothing about maxing everything, it was veteran players who pointed in that direction. Current storage is not even nearly enough to TRY different skills, pass quests naturally within reasonable time or even participate in market at newbie level. I can see many exploration type players being turned away by such chores, I dont see what game wins by having 32 slots in some NPC instead of 128. Players who want everything will do everything, just in strict order: max 1 skill, clear storage - max another skill - clear storage etc. That makes this game more linear and limiting. Pretty sure there are enough games on MMO market for players who want a linear game.

[Tagamogi]

Atis - a couple bandaid ideas for your storage problems:

Keep in mind that pretty much anything you find while exploring early on can be easily replaced/farmed by you later on when you are higher level and know why you might want something. So, don't be afraid to sell stuff, and give away everything you can to the NPCs for favor. Dragone's suggestion to talk to all NPCs in the starter zones to find out what they like is a good one. However, don't go overboard with it either. If you find a single favor item in one zone, don't bother running two zones over to gift it to an NPC unless you know you really, really want to make friends with them. Just sell the item and move on with your life. It may not be the optimal way of disposing of it, but it gets you a free inventory slot which is valuable, too.

Spoiler comment on items:

Stomachs and poetry books are pretty much the only must-hang-on-to-items I can think of. Anything else, just vendor/gift it. You may get half for an item what you could get from a player, but in terms of time it's worth it.

Wood and metal slabs are also worth hanging on to in my opinion since you need a lot of them for crafting, but in the grand scheme of things, selling a single piece of maple wood here and there won't bankrupt you. Metal slabs can always be obtained from surveying, too, and wood is much easier to get now that we have trees.



Checking the vendor used tabs gives you a pretty good idea which items are not valuable. If there is a stack of 100 items in a used tab, the odds are pretty good that this is an item frequently sold by other players, and if you ever really need it, you can just buy it at that time. In the meantime, sell it, and celebrate your inventory space.

Don't bother hanging on to gear unless you know you want to use it. This is usually my big downfall since I love collecting twink gear. I think I've been hanging on to this awesome pig/necromancy helmet for over a year now, and I don't like necromancy and have never been a pig... Anyway, do as I say and not as I do. ;) Gear with nice mods drops very frequently, so if you decide you want to try different skills later on, just switch to them and then look for matching gear, you should find it pretty quickly. No need to hoard gear for skills you may never use in the meantime.

If you really can't bear to part with stuff and you are running out of space, create a second account. This is obviously only a temporary solution until the game needs to be bought on Steam, but can save you a bit of hassle in the meantime. The nice thing about having your storage alt on a different account is that you can trade directly with them, 25 items at a time and if you trade more than their inventory can handle, the traded items will go into overflow where they are still in their inventory but no longer visible and directly accessible. Clicking on Sort may make some overflowed items show up again, depending on the sort order. You can trade back and forth with an overflowed inventory and as you move stuff out of your inventory, the previously hidden overflowed items will start showing up at the bottom. It's not ideal, but it can be a nice way to dump stuff if you don't want to worry about it for a bit. Just be warned that it's possible to accumulate a lot of crap that way. I cleared out an alt with 154 overflowed items last week. It took a few hours, and I found myself asking the question whether I'd really care or notice if that alt got hit by meteorite and lost her entire inventory. Sadly, the answer was no...

I definitely understand your inventory pains and I agree 100% with your response to Silvonis. The inventory issue has been discussed many times in the forum, but it's good to have a new player perspective on it. Our usual argument tends to be "we need more space" vs "just sell the stuff you know you don't need" as you may have noticed. :) This rather overlooks the people who don't know what they need yet and who don't want to spoil things for themselves by looking everything up. There have been improvements to the inventory - the new /isearch function is great. There will be more improvements with the new UI. I'm hoping we'll get to a point where we reach some compromise between the vision of limited storage space and storage management not getting in the way of actually playing the game. In the meantime, I hope you'll stick around and not let inventory spoil your enjoyment of the game.

[Crissa]

Many of the basic things you might store are also good for favor, if you ask around.

That's what I did with stuff until I favored up in Serb and had an idea what I wanted to do.

(I would like some sort of command to just dump things into banks. Like, I hate forgetting to move that stack over to the bank and then getting back out to the dungeon and seeing it sitting there while I have something on the ground... Combining stacks and sorting just needs to be flat easier across storage. Same for giving gifts.)

[Atis]

can be easily replaced/farmed by you later on when you are higher level and know why you might want something.

I might find out i need it 20 minutes later, when I'm still low level and it could be rare drop. I could get some shields and oranges in Serb and Elti and NPC them and then need them for favor with Tyler in South Serb. My inventory woudn't wait till i get to South Serb it would be full way before. Yes, I can farm them again but I would be pissed off by game, making me re-do same work for nothing. Eve Online isn't happy with reputation of Spreadsheet Simulator and PG won't be happy with reputation of Wiki Memorize Online.

I'm considering to make second account and ofc i see that as poor storage design.

[Arundel]

There won't be 'unlimited' storage because we are not designing the game with the intention that one character master every skill and collect every item along the way. You are certainly free to explore the skills but you will have to go about it in a way that makes sense for you with the storage limitations that are in place. Since we are in alpha, there are certain things not yet implemented related to the overall storage design that will ease some of the issues but it is safe to say that storage will be limited when compared to the number of skills availible in the game.

Typically, an MMO will limit your trade skills (or skills in general) and you will only collect mats for those limited skills. In Project: Gorgon, we don't have a cap on the skills so a lot of people have the mentality that they want to max out everything and collect everything along the way. While that is fine, we aren't designing the game with those intenions in mind - so a by product of that will be the sense that storage is limited as you look to collect the numerous mats for the vast array of skills.

TL;dr: As we progress through development, there will be updates that ease a lot of the current issues but storage will always be viewed as 'limited' when compared to the number of skills availible.

I have played MMO's for a long time and actually appreciate some of the difficulty, mystery, and limits of this game as I feel that to some extent they are helpful in creating meaningful gameplay. That said, you really won't be able to stop players from keeping all of their items. A dedicated player will just get more accounts to store stuff and buy all storage on all of them. I am sure that the dev team has considered this, but I feel that limiting storage so much as to "limit" players isn't possible - the type of player who wants everything will end up with it due to dedication and the type that is casual and just wants to participate in a few skills, learn, and play the market a bit (the "average" player) will end up losing out by not being able to do so without committing to another account. I hope you guys considerably increase the amount of storage available by launch - but in the meantime also consider that current limitations only punish your casual or average player.

[Tagamogi]

I might find out i need it 20 minutes later, when I'm still low level and it could be rare drop. I could get some shields and oranges in Serb and Elti and NPC them and then need them for favor with Tyler in South Serb. My inventory woudn't wait till i get to South Serb it would be full way before. Yes, I can farm them again but I would be pissed off by game, making me re-do same work for nothing. Eve Online isn't happy with reputation of Spreadsheet Simulator and PG won't be happy with reputation of Wiki Memorize Online.

I'm considering to make second account and ofc i see that as poor storage design.
Yeah. What I'm trying to get at is that it's less stressful to play as if there are no rare drops and nothing is irreplacable. That is generally correct, with the stomach and poetry books exception, and even those are not remotely irreplacable, just a sad loss of money if you happen to vendor them.

I think players tend to take two approaches to loot: One set of players is focused on what they need right now and treats any other loot as random vendor trash loot. The other set is focused on what loot they get and how that loot can be used to do different things in the game, so anything with a potential use is valuable. And of course this is an oversimplification and there are overlapping playstyles, etc, but I think part of the storage argument is just that development is pretty firmly in the vendor-the-random-loot camp. I'm quite firmly in the squirrel camp and my quality of life way improved once I set up some storage alts, even though I think that the concept of storage alts is just stupid...

Anyway. To go back to your Tyler example: The "correct" PG way to approach that problem is to ask yourself whether you want to use the shield combat skill. If the answer is yes, then vendor those bows you've been saving for Elahil since you can't use a bow and a shield at the same time anyway. If the answer is no, then vendor the shields and don't worry about Tyler. You may or may not want to save the oranges since they stack and can be used in cooking recipes. With the new orange trees in Eltibule, it's amazingly easy to get oranges now, though. If you want to raise favor with Tyler later, you will be higher level and getting higher level random shield loot which will tend to raise his favor more than lower level shields since they are worth more.

The above being said, I can't do it. Hence my storage alts. :p What does help for me:
- Don't worry about NPCs you haven't met yet. You will always be able to find stuff for them after you actually meet them and decide if it's worth your time to be friends with them.
- Don't worry about NPCs that like gems or food. Both of these can be easily obtained and stack. So, if you find a sword in Eltibule, no need to drag it back all the way to Serbule for Joeh. You can just make him some sausages or bacon later, and he'll be just as happy.
- Don't worry about completing quests. The most common reward for quests is favor, and if you don't have an immediate need to raise favor with an NPC, there's no need to go crazy over completing their quest. I still enjoy turning in stuff as I find it but since there is no limit to the quest log, it's ok to accumulate quests. (Quest log improvements coming in the new UI...)
- Citan's latest post on the launch wipe said there will likely be a favor wipe. So, when the question becomes not "Do I want to level psychology someday?" but "Am I going to need training in level 60 psychology before the end of 2018?", raising favor with the advanced psychology trainer becomes much, much less urgent.
- Focus on what you enjoy doing, and don't worry too much about the NPCs that don't seem relevant yet. Of course, this is much easier advice if you know what you want to do in the game and have decided what combat skills to level. :) Still, deciding to switch combat skills later on isn't hard, and people switch skills all the time.

[Atis]

The "correct" PG way to approach that problem is to ask yourself whether you want to use the shield combat skill.
And to not try the skill before deciding? But muh exploration...



The above being said, I can't do it. Hence my storage alts. :p What does help for me:
- Don't worry about NPCs you haven't met yet. You will always be able to find stuff for them after you actually meet them and decide if it's worth your time to be friends with them.
- Don't worry about NPCs that like gems or food. Both of these can be easily obtained and stack. So, if you find a sword in Eltibule, no need to drag it back all the way to Serbule for Joeh. You can just make him some sausages or bacon later, and he'll be just as happy.
- Don't worry about completing quests. The most common reward for quests is favor, and if you don't have an immediate need to raise favor with an NPC, there's no need to go crazy over completing their quest. I still enjoy turning in stuff as I find it but since there is no limit to the quest log, it's ok to accumulate quests. (Quest log improvements coming in the new UI...)
- Citan's latest post on the launch wipe said there will likely be a favor wipe. So, when the question becomes not "Do I want to level psychology someday?" but "Am I going to need training in level 60 psychology before the end of 2018?", raising favor with the advanced psychology trainer becomes much, much less urgent.
- Focus on what you enjoy doing, and don't worry too much about the NPCs that don't seem relevant yet. Of course, this is much easier advice if you know what you want to do in the game and have decided what combat skills to level. :) Still, deciding to switch combat skills later on isn't hard, and people switch skills all the time.
Wont help to me.
- Not always it will be within reasonable time, plus known npc can have new task at next favour level.
- Food and gems can easily take dozens of storage slots even with 1 stack of each. And some are not easy for new player.
- Some quests unlock access, like with staff skill or crystal cave. And I dont know which one, unless I play wiki more than I play the game. To find new things I need to do all quests.
- Wiped favour wont wipe skills i got from it.
- i enjoy finding new things. If i wanted to just level 2 combat skill lines, why would I play PG?

[Crissa]

Certainly keep fruit. It stacks, it's edible, and is a reasonable food until later levels, and can be cooked. And other players will always buy it from you.

Gems are iffy. They're worthwhile to keep, but there's too many of them. So there's no rush.

The idea of checking vendor panes is a good one...

...The problem is when it comes to things like Fire Dust or Sulfur or other rare-while-lowbie items; because there re lowbie recipes and quests which need one or two of these dang things. Or some of the poetry. You feel like an idiot for not stacking these.

And some players can be a real jerk when you just need one of even common items. If you need just one, is it worth dumping all the ingredients you just stacked in your inventory to run to a dungeon and then farm for another hour hoping for just one to drop.

Once I came up one short for parasol mushrooms when I was in the rat cave and came back to Serb. One parasol! I asked around, and no one had one. I went behind Jack's, I went to the mushroom circles, I went back to the rat cave (but someone with high speed bonuses was picking them all) I orbited Serb to no avail and I was going stir-crazy for this most common of mushrooms while I built a stack of mycena. Ugh.

[Dibbuk]

First, I do not want to dumb-down the game.

However, I would like to suggest that the current storage desks be adjusted to allow access to all qualified storage, regardless of zone, and that there be such a desk in every zone.

Players would still need to travel and gain favor to open the various storage options, but would have access to contents in whichever zone they were in. Thus, if you were in Sunvale, and needed an item stored in Ilmari, you could retrieve it from the storage desk without having to spend the time traveling back and forth.

[Kelemvor]

I agree with a lot of the comments in here, especially the original poster. I know this thread is a year old, but it doesn't seem like much has changed and mounts aren't released with storage. It still feels the exact same as what's described in here. I personally find the design choice to just really only make the game more grindy, it doesn't really seem to add anything to the experience, besides a ton of micromanagement.

And I think Dibbuk made a great suggestion, simply as a small change, more of a global access on storage options so we don't have to run back and forth constantly.

[Arundel]

I think literally every review I have seen of the game has mentioned some minor/major frustration with the storage and travel issues.

I have to believe this is very important. I don't think any of us want this game to be WoW or some mainstream MMO, obviously we came here for something different. But if you see the same comments in every review and from the playerbase maybe we can suggest ideas and see what you think? I want to point out some possibilities that basically support Dibbuk's suggestion as a balance but my explanation is lengthy and I draw comparisons to other gameplay. This post is mainly for the devs but leaving it in the forums cause I believe its a community issue as well. Also, I do not want this post to be interpreted as whiny. I actually would like to see change, but feel no major discomfort with the issue currently as I have maxed all my storage and my main is a cow that moves at the speed of light: so I don't spend as much time anymore being frustrated by this issue, though I know it hurts my enjoyment of the game still. My statements are for the new players and general balance and I wanted to clear that up so you know my context. So here it goes:

WARNING: long tangent that is used to draw a comparison in balancing gameplay for activity/community vs. difficulty/realism. Can cause massive brain trauma if you do not like reading lengthy explanations.

I actually started playing again actively when the market golems were released because I have always enjoyed shopping in games but with there being like 100+ stores open at once I just got tired of searching (it was fun for a few weeks). Now I can search and still often check a multitude of shops, but if I have little time I will just run searches on what I'm immediately after and that is game changing for many of us. We are able to do more real tasks now. Let's face it, people love to craft either to make money or to make equipment, consumables whatever - for themselves, or others, and its a core component of the game. This one change allowed far more actual production and gameplay and less tedium. I still appreciate a number of things about the market board and player shops, primarily realism (and it just being cute) and it really hurts auction house botters. These exist in all other MMO's I have played and its just much harder here. Basically, that change led to a balanced gameplay style of difficulty vs. actual gameplay that I think overall improved the game and what follows is an explanation of how this marketplace issue mirrors the storage/travel issues (in my opinion).

Back to the point about moving between zones and storage: I do like that we have to manage our inventory but feel that Dibbuk's suggestion would ease the pain a bit just as the golems did. I'm not having major storage issues but I am unable to multi-task with limited time because for example with my limited time I would have to run to another zone to get my cooking goods (because you literally have to make choices about what to keep and where) but then I need additional mats for another skill and I keep running in circles trying to get it all together. Even for experienced crafters, it's a tedious task. Yes, we can refine our playstyle and so on but being able to look at the storage I've unlocked in all zones or (maybe in one neighboring zone) and take items from it would allow me to multi-task and achieve a lot more while still needing to do all the work to unlock max storage and make decisions about what to keep.

Tangent ends here.

TLDR: For me the issue is a balance between enjoying the struggle the devs intended: "choosing items to keep" and being able to actually use the ones I do keep. As we progress we get stacks and stacks of items and for crafters we kind of have to have huge amounts of stuff. I mean, tailoring alone can require an obscene amount of storage to do anything with it. Same goes with surveying and whatnot. We'd still have to make choices if we had all the storage accessible from one point (the bank) but I feel like it would lead to more interactions, more actual gameplay, more crafting and economic interactions, because we wouldn't be playing "Project: Run Across Zones" to complete crafts because multiple items are used across multiple skills and it is just simply too hard to craft right now. I hope this doesn't sound whiny, cause I really enjoy my time in game and don't worry about much since the golems were added - but I can't even imagine how much more I could do with my limited playtime if I had access to more storage. We'd still go to those zones for the gameplay there but we wouldn't feel as worn down by it. Yesterday was a perfect example. I had to give up on my task because the banking/storage issues consumed all my time and then I didn't complete my task and had to log - it was not an enjoyable day in the game for me. No big deal, but I think with Dibbuk's suggestion implemented I would have completed several tasks and been able to help friends as well.

Conclusion: Please consider Dibbuk's suggestion. I think it would ease the actual ability to play the game while still causing us to make choices about what we keep.
Edit: I just saw Kelemvor's post above mine and he sums it up in a more concise manner than I did. But I guess that means I 3rd Dibbuk's suggestion.

[mrwarp]

Global access (NPC) storage is a novel idea, but I don't think it should be freely given. I would have to say come up with a method where a player can work up to unlocking this feature...

example: Get that next favor step beyond Soul Mates to add that NPC's storage to the global list or make a "folder" on the council storage machine.

Alternatively, that ability could be unlocked as a VIP perk if you want to take the lazy route. Perhaps VIP could allow you to pick 3 NPC storages to add to the global list or something to that effect. That way if you cancel VIP you lose them from the global list if the favor requirement is not met.

[preechr]

I second Rumm’s suggestion to make it a paid feature

The game needs relevant reasons to interest players in any VIP subscription, and if every single review and player would like having one thing, that’s a perfect thing to charge extra for

The game is perfectly playable without it, as moving around, planning and clicking are all the basics of playing any game either way, so I think this falls a bit short of “everyone” needs this or the game is ruined and more in the realm of a matter of convenience

[Raviollius]

What's happening is that people want to hoard everything to level their crafting skills themselves and not "lose" potential gains. Games like wow have even LESS storage overall, the thing is that they have stuff that is purely vendor trash. There's not many things that really are vendor trash in PG, people notice that some stuff you get from a roughly level 20 mob is used in mid-to-high level recipes too. So they want to hoard. Limited weekly vendor cash and high cost for skill past a certain point amplify the issue.

[urgatorb8]

I just skimmed through most of this thread and there are a ton of great ideas here. I, too, am one who loves the game but is very frustrated trying to make my storage options work for me. I'm only a month into PG but I have spent a huge percentage of that time mindlessly grinding for favor items to unlock some of the storage items. I've got Marna to Soul Mates, unlocked Ivyn and have purchased slots with Hulon to the point where the next slot costs 1300 (still a ways to go with him). I have Sie Antry at Close Friends and have a bit further to go with her. I also have a few limited number of slots with some others in remote locations but I'm not currently using them because what's the point - I don't want to spend 30 minutes running slowly across the game world just to place, or retrieve, an item there.

I have always viewed storage and inventory management in games as one area of game mechanics where developers should avoid (to an extent) limitations and unnecessary tedium. I, like a lot of others, like to be fairly self-sufficient and in order to do so, I feel compelled to hold onto most items that I think I might need later. There are so many different items in this game - and almost everything has a use. It does not sit right with me to dump this stuff now (especially the more rare drops) when I know I am going to need it later on when I get that higher level recipe or take up the new craft 2 months from now.

I am perfectly happy to work hard to unlock storage options and capacity BUT... at the end, there needs to be AMPLE (considerably more than there is now) storage capacity and it needs to be easily accessed in one place, or preferably a handful of places nicely spread throughout the game world. I would also like to see better mechanics to allow me to sort and organize items within my storage space so that it works according to my needs not one big pool that auto-sorts.

While we are on the storage topic... why can't I withdraw a few items from a stack in my vault instead of having to withdraw the whole stack, then split it, then return it to the vault, and then drag it to the slot that I want it in? I know the game is still in development, but I hope things like this are being considered for future updates.

Thanks for the great game. Despite the aforementioned inconveniences, I am enjoying the game (when I am not focused on storage related tasks) :)

EDIT: One more thing.... it drives me crazy to unlock a storage vendor only to learn that I can only store items of a certain type there. One of the biggest storage centers I have is Joeh but I can only store equipment there. I have hardly any need to store equipment at this point in the game - it sits largely unused and I'd beg, plead, and grovel to be able to use that space for Alchemy or Cooking items. Those limitations seem like an unneeded limitation that only serves to frustrate. Please consider removing those restrictions - if we have unlocked it, we should be able to put what we want there. Thanks.

[Quanzhigao]

I mentioned elsewhere(the patch notes where storage came up?)

Overall storage is quite fine. What sucks is being a newbie without having favor up with every NPC, most games have a very sizable bank and a fairly static inventory. In PG you start with a decent inventory that slowly expands and essentially no banking.

Stuff like initial council storage should be increased and marna/baroness should have more councils and offer more storage, with players directed to those NPC's.

I think the overall limitations are fine and most complaints are coming from people that want to do everything, maxing all the tradeskills themselves and that's on them but the game is currently extremely punishing towards newbies which is never a good thing.

>why can't I withdraw a few items from a stack in my vault instead of having to withdraw the whole stack, then split it, then return it to the vault, and then drag it to the slot that I want it in? I know the game is still in development, but I hope things like this are being considered for future updates.

This and a search/sort storage buttons(like the ones we have for inventory) would go a long way for managing things.

[preechr]

When a game mechanic is frustrating to you, I think it may be helpful to take a moment to objectively look at what is going on...

All game mechanics have an intention in their design (though some may be poorly designed and some, in a beta especially, may just be unfinished,) so what is the mechanic trying to get you to do? Hint: It most likely does not exist only to frustrate or torture you

Pretty sure there are notes on loading screens that encourage new players to sell items to other players, which makes sense in terms of encouraging a healthy game economy... Maybe instead of hoarding everything, the idea is that new players limit themselves to one or two crafting skills and sell everything else so they can save up for the large chunks of cash needed to upgrade their skills and purchase higher level abilities at 50+

Of course, you don't HAVE to do that, but the more players that do the more the economy will function as planned, if this is the plan... I dunno... I'm just guessing here

If this is the plan, it makes sense to me because this creates a viable market for new players that have no money so they can sell their loot to higher level players that have an easier time making money

High level players have had the time to favor up all the NPCs so they are getting full-price on all that fat loot they are dragging out of end-game dungeons with their huge inventories and super-speed, so they have plenty of money to spend on buying up stacks of oak and cotton from poor noobs that need the money and don't have the space to store it all

IF this is the plan, newer players that try to horde everything they find and do all the crafting they can all at once are maybe over-thinking stuff and should think about letting the game do its thing...

For those that insist, sure, put a price-tag on it and lump it in with VIP

[Kelemvor]

When a game mechanic is frustrating to you, I think it may be helpful to take a moment to objectively look at what is going on...

All game mechanics have an intention in their design (though some may be poorly designed and some, in a beta especially, may just be unfinished,) so what is the mechanic trying to get you to do? Hint: It most likely does not exist only to frustrate or torture you

Pretty sure there are notes on loading screens that encourage new players to sell items to other players, which makes sense in terms of encouraging a healthy game economy... Maybe instead of hoarding everything, the idea is that new players limit themselves to one or two crafting skills and sell everything else so they can save up for the large chunks of cash needed to upgrade their skills and purchase higher level abilities at 50+

Of course, you don't HAVE to do that, but the more players that do the more the economy will function as planned, if this is the plan... I dunno... I'm just guessing here

If this is the plan, it makes sense to me because this creates a viable market for new players that have no money so they can sell their loot to higher level players that have an easier time making money

High level players have had the time to favor up all the NPCs so they are getting full-price on all that fat loot they are dragging out of end-game dungeons with their huge inventories and super-speed, so they have plenty of money to spend on buying up stacks of oak and cotton from poor noobs that need the money and don't have the space to store it all

IF this is the plan, newer players that try to horde everything they find and do all the crafting they can all at once are maybe over-thinking stuff and should think about letting the game do its thing...

For those that insist, sure, put a price-tag on it and lump it in with VIP

Look at it this way, they don't need to change their design choices. This is the biggest and most consistent complaint amongst new and veteran players alike. It effects both in different ways, new players come into a game with such limited initial storage that they're forced to drop stuff. Veteran players are forced into running back and forth in zones to use all storage, just a complete waste of time and 'grind' which isn't going to affect the economy, it's just an annoyance.

A universal banking option without constantly having to travel would be enough, a small ~15-20 slot increase for all players would be HUGE. Especially for new players where this is just a nightmare and pushes away people. Sure, this would be good for a VIP option, but I honestly think these two small changes are necessary for everyone, you don't realize how many people dislike how severely limited it is currently. I truly think there's a lack of space when new players can only kill stuff and forage for like 15 minutes before having a full inventory..

Playing the game and unlocking endurance space plus favor and pockets alleviates it drastically, but you still have this annoying micromanagement and constantly running between zones. Then if you've played a lot, the space we have is still not enough for people playing thousands of hours, when you reach that point of course you're going to do everything, because you've already done things slowly overtime, we are ultimately forced into having alts if we keep playing the game. So I think having a favor level after soul mates that veterans can work towards which gives big boosts in storage could be a good choice as well.

[Quanzhigao]

we are ultimately forced into having alts if we keep playing the game.

A lot of new players join the discord and ask about running 2 clients/best way to transfer between characters, it's not just a problem you run into eventually.

The fact that a lot of players are trying to circumvent the item management entirely should say something.

[Kryshael]

A lot of new players join the discord and ask about running 2 clients/best way to transfer between characters

If new players are running into this problem, then they need to learn how to prioritize. Everyone who plays this game should know how to increase your bank space. It hasn't changed. Those "new" people you are talking about are just not wanting to put in the effort to do what they need to do to fix it themselves. They want an easy way out.

Last time I looked, this game is NOT about having the "easy" way out be given to you on a silver platter.

[Crissa]

That's a longer version of the unhelpful 'Git gud' trolling.

*sigh* They know inventory is a problem. We're supposed to sell most of it.

But digging through it to find the things I want to interact with still consumes a greater part of my playing time.

[Kryshael]

Was not meant to be a 'Git gud" trolling. Just an observation of how most games are played nowadays. (I am in mgmt irl and am all too familiar with this nowadays with the workforce as well)

[Mikhaila]

Frankly, I think the expectation of being able to save everything for later is just silly. You will never have enough room. If it upsets people that they "sold something that I'll need later", then realize that damn near everything has a use. And you just can't save all of it.

And so much of the crap doesn't need to be saved. When you are just starting out, it's so much easier to sell the stuff, and buy what you need, when you need it, later down the line. Saving a stack of crafting material doesn't mean a whole lot when you need 30 stacks of it down the line. Or 100.

And the longer you play, the easier it gets to make money and buy what you need. Or to use the money to buy more bank slots.

[preechr]

At the end of the day, I think it’s pretty clear that there was thought put into the way inventory and storage works, so I doubt (and hope) that several people claiming to represent everyone else will spur a rethink of a core system

That may sound a bit harsh, but personally experience has taught me to be skeptical of any demands made for other people on subjects like this

This forum is open to everyone, so if everyone has a problem they would be posting here... bolstering your claim with other voices actually weakens your position

There is no shortage of storage or inventory in this game so to claim otherwise sounds fairly disingenuous

I do believe the present system is healthy for the economy and that it was planned to be, and a healthy economy always has constraints that cause some discomfort... it’s up to each of us to decide if we can live with the system or if we are going to let it irritate us and stress us out

I suggest trying to see the wisdom in it and enjoy playing the game

[Crissa]

There is a huge shortage of storage. When you enter a dungeon, it's only a few minutes until your inventory is full and you need to throw things out.

And you know the worst place to be sorting through your inventory is?

A dungeon.

[preechr]

There is a huge shortage of storage. When you enter a dungeon, it's only a few minutes until your inventory is full and you need to throw things out.

And you know the worst place to be sorting through your inventory is?

A dungeon.

How many inventory slots do you have?

I have over a hundred and I don't recall playing an MMO with so much bag space

[Quanzhigao]

I have over a hundred and I don't recall playing an MMO with so much bag space

EQ2 not long after launch you could get 192 inventory slots+equipped gear. Storage was similarly huge being able to store like 1000 items. Loot was split. You kill a boss and it drops 3-4 items split between a party. In PG you kill a trash mob at the start of gazluks keep and each person gets a drop.

Ragnarok online had 100 inventory slots however most items also stacked way more - If you farmed on one particular map you'd use like 5-10 inventory slots for stackable loot and find a few pieces of equipment, storage was universal and large(600 items account shared, easily able to make a merchant alt that can hold 200 items) - Ragnarok also had a weight system but that only really affected some classes(hunter as they had no str+had to carry lots of arrows) and oftentimes travelling to store/sell and getting back to the map would take a few minutes.


Speaking of which, every other game you can sell everything to any given NPC. Filled up 100 slots? No problem, dump it all at the closest NPC in literally a minute. Gorgon does not use this system so you have to store items, run around a lot after every dungeon to gift it everywhere or just not take loot.

Far more loot drops in PG and it is far more time consuming to make any use of it. Gazluk keep groups stop every 20 minutes to transmute for 10 minutes. If you join a party and you are wanting to spend money let's say at level 50, you start killing some droaches. It is most efficient for you to bail on the party after 20 minutes to go sell OR to constantly be transmuting shit while your party is fighting.

[urgatorb8]

If new players are running into this problem, then they need to learn how to prioritize. Everyone who plays this game should know how to increase your bank space. It hasn't changed. Those "new" people you are talking about are just not wanting to put in the effort to do what they need to do to fix it themselves. They want an easy way out.

Last time I looked, this game is NOT about having the "easy" way out be given to you on a silver platter.

You're mistaking tedium with difficulty. I respectfully, disagree on your points.

I am one of those new players and I found the whole inventory situation a real bugger. I DID put forth the tremendous amount of effort to unlock additional storage - and still have a ways to go - but that only addresses the issue of total storage space. The is also the inconvenient method of access to deal with. "Prioritizing" what to keep when you have limited space is like pissing in the wind when there are literally soooo many items in the game that are tied to numerous skills that you either are, or will soon want to, level. One thing that would help (not solve) the issue is if an item was only tied to ONE (maybe 2) skills or didn't have so many uses. A single random drop I may find could be used for Alchemy, Lore, Shamanistic Infusion, and Cooking. And..... it might also be a good favor item for 4 different people some of whom I may not quite yet know about.

Let's say I do what some have suggested and focus on leveling two non-combat skills at the same time and the handful of NPCs that offer storage. That alone would mean I would need to be stockpiling tons of items in storage and inventory until I can get to those folks a zone or two away.

But the problem doesn't stop there, the fact that lower level drops are frequently used in higher level crafting or for favor with NPCs you haven't even got to yet - and vice versa, where higher level drops are needed for low level combines, only exacerbates the the issue.

Don't get me wrong, I love the complexity and interdependence within the game but I think there is room for improvement in many of these areas.

[urgatorb8]

How many inventory slots do you have?

I have over a hundred and I don't recall playing an MMO with so much bag space

My God.... I know I am a newer player but I thought the max was like around 65 on your person. You're telling me it's 100? I'm glad to hear it but I'm 50/50 right now and only have about 50-ish (off the top of my head).

[preechr]

Well, my main is mid fifties on staff/unarmed, but also a little over 50 on BC and shield and close to 50 on archery, necromancy, hammer and bard... I started playing with an old friend of mine that had to take off a fair amount of time over the Summer and I didn't want to leave him behind so I've been focusing on horizontal progression, and I've avoided power-leveling so I've gotten my butt kicked a ton, which increases endurance

I've also got a winter coat with pockets that I bought from a player stall, which helps

I've no idea how much personal inventory space is eventually available past that, but I'm sure its significant

Excellent response from another newish player on the other thread talking about space:


One of the things that attracts me to this game is the problem solving. I was also frustrated with the travel times at first. But then I actually started to enjoy figuring out how to solve this issue. First thing I did was bind a teleportation pad that was in the middle of everything. This way I knew my commute was also the same distance wherever I needed to go. That worked for while until I was multi tasking in several areas. So then I discovered that speed potions are concocted at very low levels and are made with extremely common ingredients: pink powder stuff, water, clown fish fillets. I gotta admit, solving this issue was more rewarding than defeating a boss. I also discovered that Druids and Battle Chems love to help out. I seriously just walk into a town and say "Can someone hit me with some extra toes?" All of a sudden I will have like 3 speed buffs.... druids are good people. All of this was accomplished right around level 15.

The second biggest frustration I hear about is the infamous inventory...... I literally sell everything that I don't need at the moment. I load up on my immediate use stuff, and favor items for whomever I am trying to gain favor with. Everything else goes. If I need something I once sold, I just hit the open market. In my real life I work in construction materials so I've learned that time is money. The time you spend fussing with inventory sorting is money/experience lost. If I am trying to level up a certain skill like Shamanic infusion (for low level augmentation) I will bank items needed to level that skill at the universal bank. But I only level 1, maybe, 2 trade skills at a time. I think players feel like they need to level every single thing at once which just creates problems. Keep it simple and supplement what you need with the player market. Keep in mind, the more you spend on the player market, the stronger the economy will be.

https://forum.projectgorgon.com/showthread.php?1691-One-Month-In-The-quot-PG-Noob-Experience-quot-Streamer-s-Long-Winded-Comprehensive-Feedback/page3

[Tagamogi]

I'm going to pick on a single sentence here to launch off on an essay of my own, sorry in advance Mikhaila:

Saving a stack of crafting material doesn't mean a whole lot when you need 30 stacks of it down the line.

I will never need 30 stacks of a particular crafting material at a time though. I greatly enjoy crafting but in small chunks - I really don't like accumulating a bunch of material and then sitting down for hours and leveling a skill from 0 to 100 in one sitting. That feels pointless to me: First I'd do a bunch of non-fun grinding to get the mats, then I'd do a bunch of non-fun crafting repeats to get the skillups, and then I'd be max level and my main feeling would be "gah, what a drag, I hate this skill."

The way I like to craft, I want to level slowly but feel like I'm doing something useful while crafting, beyond "gain a point in this skill". ( PG works really well for that type of crafting experience for me, with some exceptions like meditation and calligraphy that just level too slowly when using them on an as-needed basis.)

I also like to try everything. I don't have a particular need to max out anything, but if a skill is there, I want to at least dabble in it for a little bit to see how I like it.

When it comes to storage, all of the above means that I'll be accumulating lots and lots of tiny stacks of everything. When I get loot, it's a bit like finding a puzzle piece - ok, this thing can be used in this recipe for that skill, let's hang on to it until I find a couple more pieces to complete my recipe puzzle. I don't like farming - it's boring and I consider it a failure of efficiency and advance preparation, i.e. keeping things when I find them.

That point I'm trying to slowly get to here is that no amount of someone telling me I should be selling everything I can't use immediately is going to make me enjoy that concept. I don't play that way, I don't like playing that way and I'm always going to look for ways around it.

I don't want unlimited storage. Keeping everything is surprisingly not fun either since it then takes far too much time to actually sort through my hoard. :) So a system that gently nudges me to occasionally sell off some crap I really don't need it is actually good. What I want is storage that is "reasonably" large and that allows me to organize stuff into categories, so I'll be able to find it again quickly. I'd love it if bank storage worked similarly to inventory folders - one overall storage size that can be subdivided into custom-named compartments. Only more than 4 of course. Lots more. ;) What would also help me is a parcel mailing system, so that I can mail things to an alt who has been designated the owner of items for crafting skill x. Mail is much better than shared storage here since mail allows me to fire off an arbitrary number of items that I want to get out of my current inventory and then retrieve them from the mailbox later when I am ready - an hour or a month from now. If it's a shared storage space instead, it will require managing and logging in and out of characters to get it cleaned up.

I'm not sure if I want global storage only or prefer the zone-specific storage. Global storage would obviously be vastly more convenient, but also take away a bit of the individual zone atmosphere.

Oh, and I said it before, but I like the inventory slot limitation and the "drop stuff or run back to town?" choices. This part feels vastly different to me than the bank storage limits.

[Tagamogi]

One thing that would help (not solve) the issue is if an item was only tied to ONE (maybe 2) skills or didn't have so many uses. A single random drop I may find could be used for Alchemy, Lore, Shamanistic Infusion, and Cooking. And..... it might also be a good favor item for 4 different people some of whom I may not quite yet know about.

[ ... ]

But the problem doesn't stop there, the fact that lower level drops are frequently used in higher level crafting or for favor with NPCs you haven't even got to yet - and vice versa, where higher level drops are needed for low level combines, only exacerbates the the issue.

Don't get me wrong, I love the complexity and interdependence within the game but I think there is room for improvement in many of these areas.

Yeah, that. I love the many different possible uses for every single item in PG but it makes making decisions about what to do with an item extremely difficult at times.

I'm definitely in the packrat camp but MMO storage has never been a problem for me before. In other MMOs, I'd make different alts to try out different classes, designate alts as crafters for certain skills and then give items to the appropriate class/crafter. Easy, since items had a single use.

I like it that PG is different. I love not being restricted in combat skills or crafting skills. I also like the multi-use items - being able to use the same item in multiple different ways feels both cool and realistic to me. Plus I think it makes adding multiple crafting skills later easier since the new skills can just piggyback on some items that are already out there.

It just also means that I have a lot more items to deal with, and I wish I had more and better tools for that.

[urgatorb8]

Well, my main is mid fifties on staff/unarmed, but also a little over 50 on BC and shield and close to 50 on archery, necromancy, hammer and bard... I started playing with an old friend of mine that had to take off a fair amount of time over the Summer and I didn't want to leave him behind so I've been focusing on horizontal progression, and I've avoided power-leveling so I've gotten my butt kicked a ton, which increases endurance

I've also got a winter coat with pockets that I bought from a player stall, which helps

I've no idea how much personal inventory space is eventually available past that, but I'm sure its significant

Excellent response from another newish player on the other thread talking about space:



https://forum.projectgorgon.com/showthread.php?1691-One-Month-In-The-quot-PG-Noob-Experience-quot-Streamer-s-Long-Winded-Comprehensive-Feedback/page3

Thanks for sharing the other poster's post....

I'm like him in that I like to solve problems, and I am constantly doing that in PG. I still contend that an approach like he is offering does not work very well. Here's why... you can't get very far by saying that you're going to focus on a few things at a time and sell everything you don't need for those few things. Advancing almost anything in the game requires you to also being doing 5 other concurrent things. Ok, maybe that's a bit of a stretch, but not a very big one. This may be a weak example but it's all I can come up with here at work. I need to make a recipe that includes butter for a quest turn-in. Since I've been leveling Cooking and stashing all the materials I need for that I go to chase down the recipe for Butter. To get the recipe for butter I need to get favor with Braigon which requires collecting the things she likes. But also once I get her favor up I see from the wiki I also need to make a Butter Muslin. Guess what, in order to craft one I need to modestly level Textile Creation with some other guy. So now I'm stashing some cotton and carded cotton and canvas or something. And I've come across some other more extreme inter-dependencies.

I could maybe be persuaded by the argument that people should just sell what they don't need at the moment, IF (huge IF) buying and selling wasn't so convoluted. Most items that are worth selling for cash, can hardly be sold for full price. I know some pay more for some things than others but even with Soul Mates on a number of NPCs, I can't get them to pay me what things are worth. It's honestly a bigger frustration that the inventory capacity. I either have to sell at a big loss or run around all of creation trying to find someone who has the cash, is willing to pay me the cash, and usually ending up selling short and being disappointed or just using it for favor (when I really needed the money). Also when it comes time to buy what I had already looted but had to sell due to a lack of inventory space, I either have to be gouged by the player stalls - IF I can even find it at all. Shouting in Trade channel isn't much better. And it's frustrating at those times because at one point you HAD that item.

Honestly, I'm not trying to sound like a gripe. I really do like much of the game and I'm just trying to offer my thoughts on some things that would make it better from my perspective. I realize there are likely changes coming down the road that may help with some or all of this.

TL : DR - We either need more inventory space OR we need better selling/buying tools (meaning vendors always pay full price - maybe after a certain favor level or the ones that do buy most things have way more cash). Also the fact that stalls are gated behind Industry (and as I understand it a 7k council per week fee) does not favor the guy starting out who is trying to make a little cash and also a way to offload all this stuff I have no room to store.

[preechr]

I get exactly where you are coming from, in fact, that exact same butter scenario drove me nuts as well

The thing is, this is one of those places where the game is trying to teach you to play it, in my opinion: Though you may feel compelled to make that butter, you don't have to, and if you do, its you making that decision, not the game forcing you to do anything

Just as in life, if you did everything everyone wanted you to do, you would starve to death in a week if you didn't die from helping that guy that wants you to help test the drugs he made in his bathtub... Braigon also wants you to give him a bunch of free stomachs, but I wouldn't recommend doing that either

That being said, I did make my own butter muslin and I made my own butter, and I made alts to store all kinds of garbage, but not because I felt like I had to - I did that because I chose to, and there's a huge difference between those two things

Last night I spent hours running back and forth between Serbule, Sie Antry's Farm, Eltibule Keep and Hogan's Keep just to get three levels of cheesemaking... and I shouldn't even be fooling around with cheese yet, but I want to

I was cussing the whole time, but I also rearranged my storage in hopes of avoiding some of that frustration next time I wanna make cheese, and I knew throughout all of it that my choice was the source of my aggravation, so I was OK with it

Long story short: Don't make cheese... but if you do, know going in its a pain in the ass lol

Like you and Tagamogi, I want to keep piles of stuff on hand, even though the game expects me not to and even though it makes the game harder for me, but I enjoy it because if I need something I usually have it and if someone in game is having a hard time finding something I can help

I pay the price for that gladly because I get a kick out of helping people and from doing things the hard way

I also believe what I said when I said that new players selling their loot and higher level players buying it is foundational to a healthy economy, and that the way storage and inventory works is a great mechanism for supporting and growing it

Feedback is what we are all here to provide, but try to consider these thoughts and the game as a whole when possible... it may be that if you can look at storage in a slightly different light it will bug you less, like doing so did for me

[urgatorb8]

I also believe what I said when I said that new players selling their loot and higher level players buying it is foundational to a healthy economy, and that the way storage and inventory works is a great mechanism for supporting and growing it



Hey, good overall points to consider. Well thought out and not argumentative :) I agree with much of what you say about it being choices - but in some cases (my butter examples not being one of them) the convoluted interdependence of skills/items/favor is NOT much of a choice, like in the case of when you need to unlock skill progression but you can't until you have achieved a favor level with someone, and you need to do his quests to get the favor at a reasonable pace, and those two or three quests require you to either craft some items or buy them from someone. That's IF you can find someone selling those items - and IF they are not gouging the hell out of you with their price. I prefer to not be so reliant on buying overpriced items from people.

But my biggest rebuttal to your point about selling my items I can't use right now to higher level players is that if that's the intended game design in terms of the economy, etc. then the game needs to provide better selling tools to the low/mid level player. Vendor stalls are gated behind Industry which isn't easy to level and requires you to be pretty capable in a number of crafting professions AND, as I understand, has a prohibitive 7k weekly council fee to run. No low/mid level player is going to be able to do that. Spamming stuff in Trade chat isn't a good or efficient option. Consignments take some time to unlock and are so limited it now forces another mini-game of which 4 items do I pick to sell. This mini-game immediately follows the other min-game of which items do I not want to hold onto. And once I choose which couple of items I want to consign, I have to wait a week before I can do more - it's not enough. I would be very happy if the consignment limit was maybe 50 items per week. I think that could work.

I just think the game is too limiting in many areas that it doesn't really need to be.

[preechr]

Citan hinted at the inclusion of future tools for sales when the golems rolled out here: https://forum.projectgorgon.com/entry.php?32-Dev-Blog-June-18-2018

...and he seems committed to a multi-faceted retail environment that is rewarding and fun without any sort of Auction House, which is great

I couldn't easily find the pricing for vendor stalls, and I'm not in game now, but I believe you start with inexpensive rent on a 24 hour stall that gives XP in retail management and the more you set up stalls you gain more XP which earns you longer time limits and increased inventory and other benefits, but the rental price goes up based on how many days in a month you've set up a stall (and probably how "big" it is and how long your "lease" is)

I've heard of players paying 8k for rental, but that's the very top end of the price scale, not what you should expect to pay starting out

Anyone with actual experience in retail, please feel free to chime in here... not my jam atm

Industry is not only easy to level, doing so is a huge profit source (especially early on) so get out there and fill some work orders, man! (just filled one for trophy panther skins worth 27k so I could buy some upgrades for BC)

Personally, I've never set up a stall or consigned an item... I prefer the player interaction of meeting a need on a one-to one level, and 99% of the time I prefer to trust the buyer with pricing rather than researching what various bits and bobbles I found on the ground are worth

When I need money for something, I spend about an hour collecting strange dirt and bonemeal so I can grow cotton... that's the one thing I'll sell at market price, and I've never had a problem finding a buyer in /trade (in fact, when I get a buyer for the first 5 stacks I sell they've almost always asked me to contact them when I have more, which I do)

So, since I don't really need NPC money, I can use nearly all my loot for favor or crafting material, though I'll save armor, weapons and jewelry drops worth over 200c to sell to Joeh and Larsen (and, yeah... I keep stockpiles of items I know are useful on alts for selling/sharing)

I'm sharing my usual activity to show that there is at least one player that's having fun and progressing in the game as it is in hope that frustrated players can see around perceived obstacles to finding their own less-stressful way to play

If you're not in the mood for advice, you can skip this next part...

One thing I've learned in life that I apply to games is all human happiness is only fueled by one's sense of accomplishment, so since my goal in playing is to be happy, I focus on what I can accomplish easily

I get no sense of accomplishment from watching TV Shows, which is why I play games

P:G, specifically, allows me a wide range of easy-to-accomplish tasks and mini-goals that I can take on no matter how little time I might have to play, my level of patience at the moment, or whether I'm in the mood for killing stuff, collecting stuff, exploring, chatting, dancing... whatever... and if I find whatever I'm doing to be tedious I just do something else (it all gives XP)

When I find something that doesn't seem to be working correctly, I put in a bug report or suggestion and move on, which also gives me a sense of accomplishment

There are no necessarily lineal paths in this game, which sets it apart from 90% of what else is out there in this genre and allows me a pretty high up-time of happy thoughts regardless of mechanical limitations, but that's mostly because of the way I choose to think about progress

The only thing you can control in life is your own attitude and the only thing you can change is your mind... If you can live by that and always seek positive accomplishment in any form, I believe you'll be as happy as possible

Yeah, that's not really talking about inventory and storage, and none of it is directed at anyone in particular, but I thought it might help with perspective in discussions about changing major game mechanics... Maybe its better to go with the flow and see where what we have takes us rather than let past experiences in other games set standards for this one

[Tagamogi]

...and he seems committed to a multi-faceted retail environment that is rewarding and fun without any sort of Auction House, which is great

I couldn't easily find the pricing for vendor stalls, and I'm not in game now, but I believe you start with inexpensive rent on a 24 hour stall that gives XP in retail management and the more you set up stalls you gain more XP which earns you longer time limits and increased inventory and other benefits, but the rental price goes up based on how many days in a month you've set up a stall (and probably how "big" it is and how long your "lease" is)

I've heard of players paying 8k for rental, but that's the very top end of the price scale, not what you should expect to pay starting out

Also not in game right now but iirc the cost for a stall is 250 + 125 * number_of_days_you_rented_a_stall_in_the_last_30_d ays. So, if you rent a stall once or twice a month, your cost will be 250-375 per day. Hm, using my formula that puts the max price as 250 + 125 * 30 = 4000, which sounds a bit lower than 8K - it's quite possible I'm missing something but if you don't use the stall that much, the cost is definitely affordable.

The only thing that affects the cost is the number of recent days rented. At higher levels of retail management, you get more stall inventory slots and the option to pre-pay the rent, but it's still the same per day cost.

I'm not convinced the vendor stalls are much of an inventory saver. In order to make the most profit, you want to have a full stall, so that means collecting items you plan on selling until you have enough to fill up your shop before actually opening the shop. And that takes storage space again. :p (But yes, vendor stalls are good and fun. )



P:G, specifically, allows me a wide range of easy-to-accomplish tasks and mini-goals that I can take on no matter how little time I might have to play, my level of patience at the moment, or whether I'm in the mood for killing stuff, collecting stuff, exploring, chatting, dancing... whatever... and if I find whatever I'm doing to be tedious I just do something else (it all gives XP)

When I find something that doesn't seem to be working correctly, I put in a bug report or suggestion and move on, which also gives me a sense of accomplishment

There are no necessarily lineal paths in this game, which sets it apart from 90% of what else is out there in this genre and allows me a pretty high up-time of happy thoughts regardless of mechanical limitations, but that's mostly because of the way I choose to think about progress

Possibly surprisingly, that's very much the way I play PG as well. As much as I like to whine about certain things, I'm definitely having fun in the game. Inventory's just the thing where it can feel that no matter what I want to do, I have to clean up my inventory first instead. It's definitely gotten better since I started playing, and I'm confident there will be further improvements. And no, I'm not planning on letting the inventory stop me from having fun. :D

[urgatorb8]

Possibly surprisingly, that's very much the way I play PG as well. As much as I like to whine about certain things, I'm definitely having fun in the game. Inventory's just the thing where it can feel that no matter what I want to do, I have to clean up my inventory first instead. It's definitely gotten better since I started playing, and I'm confident there will be further improvements. And no, I'm not planning on letting the inventory stop me from having fun. :D

Sounds like there's at least three of us that have a similar mindset on games. For all the griping I've done about storage and selling, I am really enjoying PG and I do focus my attention on what I CAN accomplish which is sometimes contrary to what I WANT to accomplish - problem exacerbated by the near-limitless tings you can do in the game. That's good. My biggest problem sometimes is patience, it's always been challenging for me. But it's funny because I'm never anywhere close to the guy who is at end-game the fastest. In fact, I'm usually perpetually playing catch up. I like making progress as quick as I can in whatever endeavor I choose to focus on but try not to rush too fast. Case in point - I've been playing PG for about a month. I got to 50/50 Sword/Psych after about 2 weeks while only ever stepping foot in Serb, Serb Hills and Elt. And for these last two weeks I focused my efforts farming mats and leveling some crafts and farming loot for cash to buy upgraded skills, recipes, getting favor up on a number of NPCs (mostly ones who offer storage) - all before deciding to take a peek at the other zones like Kur, Sun Vale and others. I went two weeks killing stuff while not being able to gain exp on my main skills. That was ok.

Main focus now is to get to 50 Alchemy so I can finally do BC. I'm at 45 now. And boy how wonderful it would be if I can find an NPC to buy my endless supply of Willpower Gels and Cranium Balms at full price and with some volume cash available (perhaps there's one I don't know about yet?). I digress...

And thanks for clarifying the vendor stall stuff. That's helpful. I did do some work orders early on and you're right, the cash is pretty good. I should probably look at some again. I just spent almost all my cash unlocking an advanced Psych skill as well as unlocking Psych 51+. Now I'm tapped again. Still got to unlock 51+ harvesting from Jesina once I can faction her a bit more.
preechr... Nice tip on the Trophy Panther work order. I'm sitting on 20 or so in the bank. Also have 42 Stomachs which I'm seeing how long I can hold onto as a "savings account" to put towards an unlock of a 61+ skill.

Anyways.... I've gotten off track here. Thanks again for all the tips and advice.

[preechr]

No Worries!

Don't forget about the Work Order Boards in Sun Vale and Eltibule (Hogan's Keep) ...those have the more advanced and higher value orders

Honestly, I just drank all my Willpower Gels (got some Death XP for having a stroke that way too)

That being said, if you favor up Flia she will buy inks you can craft with Alchemy and you may make a bit of a profit that way, though you'll have to farm mats (level 3 inks need fish scales and fire powder)

BC is worth it though

[urgatorb8]

No Worries!

Don't forget about the Work Order Boards in Sun Vale and Eltibule (Hogan's Keep) ...those have the more advanced and higher value orders

Honestly, I just drank all my Willpower Gels (got some Death XP for having a stroke that way too)

That being said, if you favor up Flia she will buy inks you can craft with Alchemy and you may make a bit of a profit that way, though you'll have to farm mats (level 3 inks need fish scales and fire powder)

BC is worth it though

Everything I've seen and read about BC supports what you just said.

I think my Industry might be around level 10 right now.

I haven't got any of the ink recipes yet. I just haven't wanted to spend the cash on the recipe books. I've been getting all discovery exp once and then mostly grinding Willpower Gels and then, when I have the mats, turning some of them into Cranium Balms. Those have a value of 600 council but I can't easily find any NPCs to buy them at full value except the Baron Lady in Serb Hills. Of course, she only has 2400 per week so I'm selling them 4 at a time LOL. So far I've never had more then 2 stacks at a time so it's not hurting my inventory space much. Sure wish you could store them in Charles' stash! :p Also Making Gur-Hortas when I can, too. Lots of Beet growing and Parasol farming for me lately. Five more levels to go.... but it'll be worth it, as you say.

[Tagamogi]

Main focus now is to get to 50 Alchemy so I can finally do BC. I'm at 45 now. And boy how wonderful it would be if I can find an NPC to buy my endless supply of Willpower Gels and Cranium Balms at full price and with some volume cash available (perhaps there's one I don't know about yet?). I digress...


Before I forget: One possible use for the willpower gels would be to turn them into enhanced pineal juice and gift them to Yagreet in Sun Vale. I'm not sure if it's the best way to level favor with her, but I always find myself running out of oils long before she will teach me the recipes I want.

[urgatorb8]

Before I forget: One possible use for the willpower gels would be to turn them into enhanced pineal juice and gift them to Yagreet in Sun Vale. I'm not sure if it's the best way to level favor with her, but I always find myself running out of oils long before she will teach me the recipes I want.

Yeah I have been making some of those, too, and gifting them but not to Yagreet. I haven't been to Sun Vale yet. I have made a few Enhances Pinneal Juices but needing the additional beet and the milk slows that down a bit. I always figured from an experience point of view, if I have to grow another beet to do the recipe, I might as well just do another Willpower Gel since getting 2 Parasols are easier/cheaper to get than 3 brains and a milk. But it certainly makes sense if you need the oils for Favor.

I've got everything ready to do what should be my final 165 combines (according to my calculations) to get to 50 Alchemy. Then I need to figure out how to get rid of the several hundred Willpower Gels I'll have. That's about 30-35k council (if I can find someone who has a good supply of council) or maybe use some of them for Favor (not sure who would be best though. Will do some research on that - might be someone I haven't yet got to. Suggestions welcome.

[Tagamogi]

The reason I mentioned Yagreet is that you probably want favor with her eventually.


She teaches the resuscitate ability and being able to rez someone is obviously a super-useful ability if you ever group. It requires a high first aid skill also, though, so you may not be interested in favor with Yagreet until you leveled up first aid some more first.

I'm not sure about the current prices of silver, so silver may or may not be a more cost-effective way to get favor with her. I tend to be a bit fixated on Yagreet favor since it felt like it took me forever to get favor with her at first and now I have two alts that I need to also get friendly with her and I'm just kind of dreading the idea. :)


It may not be the best of all possible uses for your gels, especially since you have to get milk, too. I'd be curious to see what other people suggest. One other idea that comes to my mind is that willpower gel is used in a quest, so you could also just try selling it to other players (assuming you can find an effective way of doing that ;) ).

[urgatorb8]

The reason I mentioned Yagreet is that you probably want favor with her eventually.


She teaches the resuscitate ability and being able to rez someone is obviously a super-useful ability if you ever group. It requires a high first aid skill also, though, so you may not be interested in favor with Yagreet until you leveled up first aid some more first.

I'm not sure about the current prices of silver, so silver may or may not be a more cost-effective way to get favor with her. I tend to be a bit fixated on Yagreet favor since it felt like it took me forever to get favor with her at first and now I have two alts that I need to also get friendly with her and I'm just kind of dreading the idea. :)


It may not be the best of all possible uses for your gels, especially since you have to get milk, too. I'd be curious to see what other people suggest. One other idea that comes to my mind is that willpower gel is used in a quest, so you could also just try selling it to other players (assuming you can find an effective way of doing that ;) ).

Awesome, thanks for the tips. I was not aware of that ability. I think my First Aid is around level 27 or so, I'm really terrible about using it routinely. Sames with Armor Patch. I need to get on that. I figure with so many Willpower Gels at my disposal, I could likely use a bunch to make the Pinneal Juice to get her to the favor level I need for the skill you mention and still have a boat-ton to sell or do other things for.

I searched the wiki (very inefficiently) to see if any other NPCs like the Willpower Gel. Off the top of my head, Kleave likes them but I've got him to something like Friends or Best Friends already. I am thinking of doing Leatherworking much later on down the road so that could be a decent use as well. Flia takes them as well but I haven't felt she's of much use to me, frankly. Although her spending limits seems sweet if you get a ton of recipe books and the like.

[Tagamogi]

Kleave likes skins and loves onyx, so I find her favor quite easy to level using that and probably wouldn't bother with other stuff. If a person likes a specific item as opposed to a general item category, giving them that item will usually result in greatly increased favor, so her loving onyx instead of just "gems" means you are going to get a lot of favor for your onyx gift. Most players also find skins pretty easy to accumulate.

Flia - yeah, I don't talk to her much either now that I've finally gotten the last of my unarmed abilities. It looks like she likes willpower gels because they are in the general "potion" category, so while it seems like a decent way to level up favor with her, you will most likely not get quite as much favor as when gifting it to an NPC who specifically likes "willpower gel". Of course, I'm not sure if there is such a person...

[urgatorb8]

Kleave likes skins and loves onyx, so I find her favor quite easy to level using that and probably wouldn't bother with other stuff. If a person likes a specific item as opposed to a general item category, giving them that item will usually result in greatly increased favor, so her loving onyx instead of just "gems" means you are going to get a lot of favor for your onyx gift. Most players also find skins pretty easy to accumulate.

Flia - yeah, I don't talk to her much either now that I've finally gotten the last of my unarmed abilities. It looks like she likes willpower gels because they are in the general "potion" category, so while it seems like a decent way to level up favor with her, you will most likely not get quite as much favor as when gifting it to an NPC who specifically likes "willpower gel". Of course, I'm not sure if there is such a person...

I hadn't really thought about it that way but what you say makes perfect sense. The part about a specific item versus a more broad category of item that your specific item falls into. Gems versus Onyx. That's handy.

I looked through the wiki checking almost every NPCs favor item list and I did not see anybody who specifically like "Willpower Gel". Oh well. I think I'll probably use a bunch of them to make the Enhanced Pineal Juice and give them to Yagreet and then sell the rest to get cash towards unlocking Harvesting and/or some BC skills now that I should be able to unlock that tonight. Very exciting times for me in P:G :)

[Crissa]

I just want storage I don't have to think about.

Sure, I'm only trying to collect a few things at a time... But there are always stacks of inconvenient items or leftover food in my bank, and I would really, really like a 'consolidate stacks into bank button'.

That would save me soo much time.

Btw I'm level 49/36 and have 113 inventory slots, of which 31 are equipment. I can fill that inventory very quickly in a dungeon, and if I want to actually take down bosses I can't just be wearing my pocket gear!

[Kelemvor]

What's been suggested before a ton of people changed the topic. Also, I don't think anyone has suggested unlimited storage but I see a lot of people arguing against it for some reason.

* +10-20 basic inventory increase

* Change the main bank to show -all- storage in the game you've unlocked for universal access.
((In my opinion, we've already got it, being forced to run back and forth around the map spending countless hours and playing micromanagement isn't that fun. There are also a lot of storage areas I personally don't use because of this, serbule hills and kur for instance.))

* Add auto-sort to storage

* Maybe add a favor level after soul mates for storage related NPCs for more storage space so people that have played a long time have something to work toward instead of using alts.

[urgatorb8]

* +10-20 basic inventory increase

* Change the main bank to show -all- storage in the game you've unlocked for universal access.
((In my opinion, we've already got it, being forced to run back and forth around the map spending countless hours and playing micromanagement isn't that fun. There are also a lot of storage areas I personally don't use because of this, serbule hills and kur for instance.))


I agree with your two points noted above but would add the following...

* Allow me to split a stack directly from the bank instead of having to first move it to my inventory, split it, return it to the bank (first goes to the first open position), then have to re-position it to where that item was sorted before I moved it to my inventory.

* Allow me to place items in the bank in the specific slot that I want - this means that if I want to have an empty space between two items, I can do so.

Some clarifications I would make around my support for your "universal access" suggestion... I would like to see these features:

- I would still like to have each chest I have unlocked with an NPC shown separately and not just one big lump of space (although I would take that too).

- Or, better yet, have it be one big space but you can create up to 15-20(?) tabs just like you get in your personal inventory. This way you can still sort and segregate your items into categories or by crafting skill or purpose

-If storage became universal then I would be fine with one access point per zone (dungeons excluded)

- If storage is to not be universal then I would suggest that ALL storage within that zone have a universal access point within that zone (think bookcases). BUT this should include any storage unlocked within any dungeons within that zone. Drives me nuts that I have decent storage space unlocked in the Crypt and Crystal Caverns but I am never realistically going to use it due to it being out of the way and having out-leveled the area. PLUS situations like Hulon not being part of the bookcase in Serbule is annoying.

Summed up: Give me one single place in each major zone where I can access ALL the storage I have earned in the game, or at least that specific zone (dungeons included).

Thanks

[Crissa]

I would like more things to stack, rather than more spaces. If I have a pile of rings or cloaks or armor from the dungeon, can't it be just a pile? I don't mind sorting through these things. I just hate doing it in the dungeon. And I hate that I lose things in my inventory. And I hate that I forget to grab things out of the bank (or whatever storage) for a recipe.

What a pain inventory is.

[urgatorb8]

I agree that having everything stack to at least 99 would be an amazing change - how hard can that be and why would that be game breaking? I'm looking at you fertilizers, waters, empty bottles, milk, potions....

Doing rings, as you suggest however, isn't not easy nor likely to happen. With each item's unique mods, they are not longer "the same item".

[Crissa]

There's no particular reason why not. A 'pile' of loot could just be a container that you can't add things to and can only remove everything from all at once. Or loot could be a stacking object 'Armor' that you have to 'examine' to get the armor just like you have to empty 'coin purse' to get the coins.

[Mizunogaki]

Storage: Agrees with connected storage and a delivery option between cities.

Request to ingredients: What about to create a separate unlimited bag for ingredients that you can use from everywhere?

Banking: Instead of players market create the market square with different NPCs in every big city where players can buy and sell goods (auction house). There are tailor, blacksmith, alchemist etc. This is a loud place with people, voices, and if u wanna sell or buy so just talk with an NPC and you get access to Auction house. "Do favor" for them and unlock more cells for selling goods via the market.