Updating Calligraphy and Meditation

[Varnoc]

With the removal of combos on gear some time back, Calligraphy and Meditation combos have become increasingly out of place. I've not had a good solution for their rigid combo structure until now, so I've not said anything.

I'd like to see the combos provided by these skills changed to follow this sort of structure, do keep in mind these are just examples:


(BasicAttack) + (AnySkill) + (NiceAttack) + (SpecificSwordSkill)
(SignatureDebuff) + (AnySkill) + (SpecificSwordSkill)
(EpicAttack) + (BasicAttack) + (CoreAttack) + (SpecificSwordSkill)
(AnySkill) + (CoreAttack) + (BasicAttack) + (SpecificSwordSkill)
(CoreAttack) + (SignatureDebuff) + (SpecificSwordSkill)


This sort of structure would allow the player to mix in abilities from different skills with freedom, while retaining the bonuses to the Sword or Unarmed skills.

This also makes abilities currently unused in Calligraphy/Meditation combos usable, allowing players to use the abilities they want to, rather than the ones they feel obligated to due to higher numbers.

An additional Note: I'd like to see players gain Calligraphy/Meditation experience for performing combos in combat, that would make it much less of a grind-fest to level, making it feel a bit more natural.

[Niph]

It seems to me Meditation is supposed to be the ancillary skill of Unarmed, and Calligraphy the ancillary skill of Sword. So, even though your suggestion has merit, I think they are really intended to remain specific to these combat skills.

Perhaps we could have some new skill for "generic" combos.

[Varnoc]

That was my thought too, but it runs contrary to Citan's stated desire to have two skill builds work more effectively than single skill builds.

Added on top of the fact that those combos are highly rigid, and often include abilities you simply don't care for, you end up being put in a position where it feels beeter to simply ignore Calligraphy's combos altogether.

I doubt the latter ramblings will ever make it into the game under Calligraphy/Meditation, but the former, I feel, runs quite well with what Citan's stated he wants to push combat towards.

[Greyfyn]

I enjoy the work of figuring out the timing of using my combos. I have picked specific combos to use for both sword/calligraphy and unarmed/meditation and built for using them. The timing with the other skill sometimes means I put myself at risk because I can't use a psych heal when I need to, but that's part of the exercise. Just because there are more combos out there, doesn't mean I'm gonna use them. Find ones that work and build for them.

Sword NEEDS calligraphy do to adequate damage. If you're doing sword and you are not at least using the % damage buff calligraphy gives you, you are likely just not gonna do the damage of other skill lines. I don't see that OTHER skill lines really need to use what is intended to enhance sword and unarmed. The fact that archers can up their piercing % by using a calligraphy is a side effect. If there were some additional calligraphy for everyone to use, than the calligraphy for sword only would need to be buffed, because sword is not the powerhouse damage producer it really could be.

There's little wonder that people just starting out get frustrated with sword. Really. But that's another discussion.

As for unarmed, the meditations might not be clear. You get the combo from the specific meditation you chose, the combo from the pillar you use, and the daily combo. Playing with being able to use those combos at any specific time is part of the fun. I do use my second skill, psychology, quite a lot. I just do it in the interim times between combos. Timing! Sometimes it spectacularly fails.

Both calligraphy and meditation got a somewhat temporary fix by having a generic skill inserted into the combo, which allows flexibility we didn't previously have. There are lots of combos no one will use, but I don't find that surprising. There are lots of cooking recipes no one will use once they have leveled past them.

From my perspective, being able to insert actions from other skill-lines into combos just weakens sword and unarmed. If you're gonna do that, you might as well add a wet noodle skill to sword so I can stand there while the druid archers take care of everything for me.

[Varnoc]

I don't see that OTHER skill lines really need to use what is intended to enhance sword and unarmed.

I think there's a misunderstanding here.

Other skills WOULD NOT benefit from Calligraphy or Meditation. I think we can all agree that would be busted.

What I'm asking for is more flexible combos. The option to use abilities from other skill sets (Necro, Mentalism, Shield, Psych, Etc.) IN the combo. Other skills wouldn't get any more damage or utility from it. Period. The combos would always end in a specific Sword or Unarmed skill, and thus the effect is tied to those skill sets.

All this does is further reinforce the idea of two-skill combat, and free people up to combo the way they want to. You still need to use Sword/Unarmed to get the benefit of your Calligraphy/Meditation.

---

On the subject of passive bonuses, I honestly think they should go. Tie the damage into the combo itself, it's more interesting that way and prevents other skills from abusing it.

[Crissa]

The combos from Meditation just don't work once you start getting gear. If I get a punch-hipcheck combo, I'm just not going to use it because I don't have punch+hipcheck gear. And when punch was prohibited from animals, well, there was only one combo that didn't need a punch.

I liked the idea of more generic combos - if anything it lets you use combos that match your gear. Back when I started, they were cool, but...

...Now I get half my damage from 'bonus to knee kick' and 'bonus to barrage' so I never use them. I'll never take barrage or knee kick off my bar (and probably not mamba and front kick, either) since I solo alot.

(something that might help with Meditation is if it didn't expire while I was near a meditation point or in the inn, so I could mess with my bars without burning the effect time.)

PS: Also the combos don't mesh well with another skill. Animal skills have kicks, so some worked, but... Psych always breaks the combos. I'd really like if the combos and 'nice attack' etc had generic icons in the text or maybe in the lower corner of the ability icon? I need some training aids here.)

[Greyfyn]

Varnoc

My original post may not have directly addressed yours. I was thinking more of things I've read in game chat recently and attempted to address some of the confusion new players have experienced.

Yes, it would be wonderful if calligraphy became more functional for sword. As you discussed elsewhere, calligraphy requires stupidly prohibitive items in a lot of cases where meditation just has one easy to get item. Just looking at the two side by side, the archaic organization of the calligraphy window is impenetrable in comparison to the neat and tidy meditation list. Alphabetical listing of calligraphy spell names makes me want to sneeze just looking at it. It would be great if it could be restructured for accessibility.

Your suggestion of how to make calligraphy more fluid and useful is a good one. Being able to better integrate combos with other skill lines will help make sword and calligraphy work better together. My sense of IRK with sword/calligraphy is long standing and your idea could resolve some of that irritation.

Removing the passive damage bonus and tying that damage directly to a successful combo would be great. Yes!

[Spiritfingers]

How about this for an idea. Have cross skill combos. Maybe have a condition that Meditation meets that allows calligraphy to work. That would be crazy balancing work. Maybe my idea is too much.

[Tagamogi]

It would be lovely if calligraphy and medititation were reworked to be a bit more flexible. I really like the concept of these two skills, but in practice I just tend to not use them that much.

Adding a possibly redundant mid-level perspective:
I recently decided to play sword a bit more, and went through the list of calligraphy recipes available to me at level 31. After reviewing my recipes, I decided to only use the Secrets straight % buff, since none of the combos really looked worthwhile to me. A lot of the combos were sword slash + sword slash which I don't like since I like to smash buttons and don't want to wait on the cooldown, and the other combos just didn't seem that exciting compared to what damage I could get by focusing on the abilities buffed by my gear instead.

Meditation is pretty much the reason I don't enjoy unarmed. I feel I need to keep track of which combo does what and where I can get it from, just in case there is an amazing combo somewhere that's better than my gear effects and this whole tracking thing just feels like way too much hassle. (And I'm saying that as the person who recently started a spreadsheet of possible workorders to keep track of what I turned in when, and who keeps a list of NPC hangouts.:P) I've been totally ignoring the daily combo buffs, too, because I like planning ahead, so having a combo that's only going to work for one day isn't too appealing to me.
I also don't like having to go to a meditation pillar - I keep thinking I'll be right in the middle of something really fun when my buff runs out, and then I'll have to stop what I'm doing to find a meditation pillar. It's good that calligraphy and meditation have different ways of working, but meditation to me seems far more inconvenient, so it seems it should have stronger effects to compensate then. (Or maybe it already does, and I just haven't found the right pillar or reached the right level...)

[Crissa]

There are meditation pillars near the entrance to most of the dungeons; you just need to remember to meditate right before doing your run. It's a nice long buff, but...
...The moment you have to run back to town or something you basically have the start again. Same for food buffs.

I know we want big-wold feeling things, but we also sorta need a way to put a 'pause' on game effects so we can head RL or RP calls.

[Varnoc]

Adding to this because it was brought up: Not being able to see the actual combo that the recipe results in is very annoying, given the rigid nature of them, if they're not listed somewhere (like on the wiki, which is partial right now), you're kinda shooting blind.

Effects I'd like to see in some manner for Calligraphy (as I'm afraid I'm not too familiar with Meditation):


Flashing Strike - An AoE effect. Being able to use this in Undead-infested areas would make it useful without being overbearing elsewhere.
Parry / Riposte - Another AoE. This already exists on both gear and a current combo for Parry. I'd like to see the effect moved exclusively to Calligraphy. It's very powerful because it's essentially a 2-fer-1, as Riposte can be used in place of Parry during combos. This becomes the de-facto choice for AoE rage control.
Hacking Blade - Two for this ability. One making it an AoE, to bleed down multiple enemies at a time, the other a stronger single-target bleed, reinforcing the identity of this ability as the king of damage over time for sword.
Heart Piercer - An effect that causes the target to "bleed" out a portion of their rage over a period of time would be neat. I've always seen this ability as the answer to high rage on a single target, while Riposte, Parry, and Precision Pierce were good for killing time in between (though Parry/Riposte certainly outpace it heavily right now).
Some sort of Taunt increase effect. +X% taunting for a few seconds after completing the combo would make it an interesting choice for people that wish to seek after tanking with Sword+______
Guaranteed knockback effect on completion of combo. This makes knocking a target backwards completely voluntary, allowing the player to intentionally break the combo if they choose to do so without locking them into the effect.


Obviously, these are just examples of the sort of thing I'd like to see. Weather or not they are good for the game's health or not is up for debate, but hopefully they get the idea across. Barring the first few recipes, none of the effects should really be "useless", only situational. We can afford to have fewer calligraphy recipes in total if the method of leveling up the skill isn't tied to the number of times you complete the recipe, and instead to the performing of combos in combat.

[Eachna]

I think there's a misunderstanding here.

Other skills WOULD NOT benefit from Calligraphy or Meditation. I think we can all agree that would be busted.

What I'm asking for is more flexible combos. The option to use abilities from other skill sets (Necro, Mentalism, Shield, Psych, Etc.) IN the combo. Other skills wouldn't get any more damage or utility from it. Period. The combos would always end in a specific Sword or Unarmed skill, and thus the effect is tied to those skill sets.

All this does is further reinforce the idea of two-skill combat, and free people up to combo the way they want to. You still need to use Sword/Unarmed to get the benefit of your Calligraphy/Meditation.

I really like this suggestion and something like this would make me more likely to consider sword and unarmed as fighting styles. I've tried both and given up on them because they were too fiddly to get the buffs.


On the subject of passive bonuses, I honestly think they should go. Tie the damage into the combo itself, it's more interesting that way and prevents other skills from abusing it.

I dislike passive bonuses also. An always-on bonus is almost exactly like having no bonus at all (because Citan has to balance mobs to overcome players using them).

When the bonus is tied to the attack, it gives you a real decision. Do you take a slower, longer DoT that does more damage over time or a single medium-impact hit that can be followed by another single hit?

[cr00cy]

Biggest (in my opinion) problems with meditation combos:
1) most of them are use;ess, either becasue effect is not good(why would i want stun for combo that ends with barrage?(ok i migh use it with Headbutt, but still its not great)), or have too long paths.
2)Too mcuh focus on certain skills. I dont knwo how to explain it well, but bascily often "good" combos have teh same skills in them. For exampel, most fo lv 50+ combos uses Hip throw - somethign not everyone would liek to use.
3) Too many combos, too low diversity. We got 1 combo per skil level, but honestly thats too much. Cutting it by half ( keeping the ones with additional bonuses liek +hp), and increasing diveristy in effects would be good.

Also if we would have ore utility bonuses it would be great. Combo that restores 40 hp is very good for low lv palyers but "meh" at best for high lv one.

But combo that gives one of your skills aoe is equaly usefull for lv 1 and lv 60 player.

[pilotfisherman]

I have wondered why Meditation combos are transparent and Calligraphy combos are not.

I don't use a sword but I do go to the +7% Crushing damage buff Secret Calligraphy: Clenched Fist when playing with Pig + Unarmed skill sets. Still slowly leveling it through reapplication every eight hours thanks to Carpentry's bench recipe buff. Carpentry level is also creeping along. I like that the normal and secret calligraphy buffs do not occupy the "buff slot" from any other source.

They are their own thing with no trade off aside from consumable resources.

A few Meditations and Meditation Pillar combos I like and why:

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Meditation #11 (http://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=11) Receive +3 Max Breath, plus the two combos from a Meditation Pillar, plus a third combo for Kick+Kick+Kick, which stuns the enemy.
Meditation #27 (http://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=27) Receive +5 Max Breath, plus the two combos from a Meditation Pillar, plus a third combo for Barrage+Punch+Hip Throw, which slows the enemy's run speed by 25%.
Meditation #37 (http://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=37) Receive +7 Max Breath, plus the two combos from a Meditation Pillar, plus a third combo for Barrage+Punch+Punch, which deals 40 extra damage.

+7 Max Breath is a pretty big buff considering what a player's base Breath is.

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Meditation Pillar Combo: Crowd Surprise - Combo: Kick + Punch + Cobra Strike: final step hits all enemies within 5 meters
(Near Leonard Alleson in Serbule)

Meditation Pillar Combo: Bruising Strike - Combo: Bruising Blow + Punch + Cobra Strike: final step affects all targets within 5 meters and deals 60 extra damage.
(North East of Animal Town) Sadly the 5m AoE effect is not working but the +60 damage seems to be. Bug report was filed.

I had a chance to remake some equipment during the winter event for my Pig + Unarmed Load-Out. With some editing and squeezing had successfully stacked new mods -

Mamba Strike deals +200% Crushing damage and +300 Trauma damage (if target's armor is below 33%), but reuse timer is +8 seconds
Mamba Strike and Front Kick deal 65 Trauma damage over 15 seconds

Mamba is interchangeable with Cobra step of Crowd Surprise and Bruising Strike combos. I like these combos because they make investing into offensive Mamba Strike mods more worthwhile. I also like that Mamba Strike has the dual unarmed weapon requirement in light of how offensive this is. I like how through single target armor damage or selective targeting the combo gains AoE power.

Most Bodyslam and + Unarmed damage mods remain to fill out the rest of the Unarmed half of the Pig + Unarmed Load-Out and build in more AoE offense.

Meditation #64 (http://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=64) Receive the two combos from a Meditation Pillar, plus a third combo for Bruising Blow+Kick+Hip Throw, which hits all enemies within 8 meters and deals +55 damage.
Meditation #65 (http://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=65) Receive +30 Max Health, plus the two combos from a Meditation Pillar, plus a third combo for Bruising Blow+Kick+Hip Throw, which hits all enemies within 8 meters and deals +55 damage.

If you enjoy using epic attacks and are considering channeling that excitement through Bodyslam, this combo's damage addition explodes through the +% damage of Bodyslam mods on your gear. The mods which increase Bodyslam damage can consume most of your available Unarmed mod slots across all of your gear if you include additions to flat + Unarmed damage, and +% Unarmed damage. This combo helps that kind of investment mean much more. Combos are the only way to grant Bodyslam AoE.(currently this combo in-game reads as deals "+150 damage" since about +700% damage to Bodyslam mods were removed. That was a good change but I am being lazy and copy/pasting outdated wiki.)

The remnants of the reasons for Bodyslam to exist aside, I would think it might be ok if Bodyslam required two Unarmed weapons and Hip Throw did not. It would immediately contribute to much needed reasons to slot Hip Throw at all. This would heighten the synergy of the new mod that lets Slashing Strike lower Hip Throw's cooldown with a Staff + Unarmed build in mind.
Amulna's Meditation Pillar Combo: Sapping Vigor - Combo: Hip Throw + Punch + Cobra Strike + Kick: final step restores 20 power to you. This combo had always bugged be because I felt that at best you would be dealing with the 15 second cooldown of Hip Throw with weak utility as the result. Letting Hip Throw remain in a power recovery combo seems like a better idea now that one can build for Hip Throw cooldown reduction. I like the idea of a combo to supplement combat refresh and armor choices regarding power recovery.

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Meditation #06 (http://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=06) Receive the two combos from a Meditation Pillar, plus a third combo for Barrage+Punch+Kick, which heals you for 20 health.
Meditation #07 (http://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=07) Receive +5 Max Health, plus the two combos from a Meditation Pillar, plus a third combo for Barrage+Punch+Kick, which heals you for 20 health.

Meditation #56 (http://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=56) Receive the two combos from a Meditation Pillar, plus a third combo for Barrage+Punch+Kick, which heals you for 50 health.
Meditation #57 (http://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=57) Receive +20% Electricity Resistance, plus the two combos from a Meditation Pillar, plus a third combo for Barrage+Punch+Kick, which heals you for 50 health.

I like these HP recovery combos because of how they layer in to this one.

Meditation Pillar Combo: Breather - Combo: Barrage + Punch + Kick + Cobra Strike: final step heals you for 25% of your max health.
(Near the giant stone gorgon's left hand. In Serbule)

The HP and Armor recovery mods one can focus on for these four skills, feels useful enough to build for to further the survival themed layered combo's effect.
The skills with the longest cooldowns of 10-12 seconds, Barrage/ Headbutt and Kick/ Knee Kick, can be doubled up on. This would open up the possibility to never wait on cooldowns to execute this layered combo. The flexibility to be able to double down on this utility while pointedly investing in a similar theme through gear, is my favorite reason for keeping Unarmed skill cooldowns unshared. (Unlike Pin and Pinning Slash for example. They share a cooldown) If the skills need to be powered down as a result, I think the fun in flexibility could be worth the trade off.

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Meditation #40 (http://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=40) Receive the two combos from a Meditation Pillar, plus a third combo for Barrage+Punch+Kick+Punch, which affects all targets within 5 meters and ignites them, dealing 60 damage over 15 seconds.
Meditation #41 (http://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=41) Receive +20% Psychic Resistance, plus the two combos from a Meditation Pillar, plus a third combo for Barrage+Punch+Kick+Punch, which affects all targets within 5 meters and ignites them, dealing 60 damage over 15 seconds.

Meditation Pillar Combo: Simplicity of Fate - Combo: Punch + Punch: final step deals +50% damage
(In Rahu near Council Storage)

I like these combos because neither of them require dual Unarmed weapons and they both would receive Infuriating Fist well.

Daily Combo: Kick + Punch + Punch: final step hits all enemies within 5 meters
(No name for this combo. It is one of ten which repeat a cycle. I think.)

I love this daily because it is so simple, would be fun to use with Infuriating Fist and layers over Simplicity of Fate.

As Carpentry grows with everything else, I expect Meditation Stool buffs would grow to 12 hour duration or more. Anticipating your favorite daily combo's presence, using a high level stool on the right day would preserve the buff for a couple of days out of your real life week of play time. From there I can imagine a group sized amount of consumables and carpentry items gathered and processed through some sort of Ritual skill to grant a group buff to Meditation duration. The duration could last for 240 hours if there are 10 different daily combo days, allowing for the buff to drop when the next chance to reapply comes along.

[Hood]

Varnoc, I like your suggestion a lot. I think that most of the callig's and med's could stay just the way they are and there could be just a handful of these Any-Skill combos so that the supplementary skills become a bit more useful for a larger variety of combat skills.

Changing all of them to Any-Skill combos would be a bit overkill but I don't remember you suggesting that :)

[pilotfisherman]

1) most of them are use;ess, either becasue effect is not good(why would i want stun for combo that ends with barrage?(ok i migh use it with Headbutt, but still its not great)), or have too long paths.

If you are thinking of the pillar Combo: Stunning Bruises - Combo: Cobra Strike + Bruising Blow + Barrage: final step stuns the enemy, I agree it isn't good but not because I wouldn't want a stun on Headbutt. I might really want a stun on Headbutt and this may be the only way to get that. This might be important if I were using a build with only one hand dedicated to Unarmed because Barrage is exclusive to dual Unarmed and Headbutt isn't. The fact that Cobra is in the combo, foils my ability to get a Barrage-like stun from Headbutt while using only one hand dedicated to Unarmed. It would be a more useful combo if it excluded dual Unarmed exclusive skills like Cobra Strike.

[cr00cy]

If you are thinking of the pillar Combo: Stunning Bruises - Combo: Cobra Strike + Bruising Blow + Barrage: final step stuns the enemy, I agree it isn't good but not because I wouldn't want a stun on Headbutt. I might really want a stun on Headbutt and this may be the only way to get that. This might be important if I were using a build with only one hand dedicated to Unarmed because Barrage is exclusive to dual Unarmed and Headbutt isn't. The fact that Cobra is in the combo, foils my ability to get a Barrage-like stun from Headbutt while using only one hand dedicated to Unarmed. It would be a more useful combo if it excluded dual Unarmed exclusive skills like Cobra Strike.

Yeh thats part of why its bad too. Other thing i dont like is that many combos taht give effect i woudl actualy like to ahve (liek aoe on CS or Kick) all requie simialr skills - in that case Hip throw.

And otehr thing i notice drecently - not really about combos but Unarmed in general. So this skills si describvet as l;ow dmg, low power cost, high cc one. While low damge and high cc is there (i checked and differenc ein dmage between unarmed and other skilsl is noticable) power copst are rather simialr than other skills.

[Hood]

South of Orc Camp pillar in Gazluk:

Pillar Meditation
Tame the Horde: Hip Throw + Kick + Any Melee + Kick = AOE within 5 meters.

[Dagimir]

With the removal of combos on gear some time back, Calligraphy and Meditation combos have become increasingly out of place. I've not had a good solution for their rigid combo structure until now, so I've not said anything.

I'd like to see the combos provided by these skills changed to follow this sort of structure, do keep in mind these are just examples:


(BasicAttack) + (AnySkill) + (NiceAttack) + (SpecificSwordSkill)
(SignatureDebuff) + (AnySkill) + (SpecificSwordSkill)
(EpicAttack) + (BasicAttack) + (CoreAttack) + (SpecificSwordSkill)
(AnySkill) + (CoreAttack) + (BasicAttack) + (SpecificSwordSkill)
(CoreAttack) + (SignatureDebuff) + (SpecificSwordSkill)


This sort of structure would allow the player to mix in abilities from different skills with freedom, while retaining the bonuses to the Sword or Unarmed skills.

This also makes abilities currently unused in Calligraphy/Meditation combos usable, allowing players to use the abilities they want to, rather than the ones they feel obligated to due to higher numbers.

An additional Note: I'd like to see players gain Calligraphy/Meditation experience for performing combos in combat, that would make it much less of a grind-fest to level, making it feel a bit more natural.


I love this idea. I think its a great change in the right direction!