Group vs Solo Play

[Spiritfingers]

I was having a really good discussion with a guild earlier today. We were talking about current builds that allow you to solo through almost all content. Would you guys like to see more role oriented content or are you happy with playing solo? If game remains a "dps race", why even have as many combat skills as the game does (even more when deciding on combat combos)?

[Tagamogi]

I usually prefer playing solo. And I really like the many different combat skills - I've been having great fun dabbling in different skills and trying to decide which ones I enjoy playing the most. I still haven't unlocked any of my combat skills to go past 50 and my gear is correspondingly bad, so I'm not exactly a powerful dps soloer.

If you are more of a power player, I'd say that the different skills can give you more flexibility and allow you to take advantage of vulnerabilities of different mobs.

[Kanbe]

I'm not high level expert but I'd wager you could make some support builds but I'm not sure if it would be more or less beneficial than another DPS. But I do love the variety of options for combat skills. I especially love being able to use ice magic and it actually has some punch to it instead of being regulated to just a CC class.

[Greyfyn]

There are a couple of underlying elements here, that need to be taken into consideration. One, a lot of people have been playing a long time and have the resources to have the very best all yellow gear, completely suited to their build. Citan has more than once said that he does not intend that to be necessary to complete content. So basically, there are a lot of players wearing gear that outpaces the content we have so far--they're wearing tuxedos to a beach party.

Two, regardless of whether someone can solo content, all players have the ability use whatever skills they want. While there are a few players who have a primary mode, just about everyone is experimenting with a lot of different skills. I'm a sword/psych, unarmed/psych, archery/whatever, who decided to be a cow tank and am now creating a pigment--a mentalist pig who can either dps or go total support/heals. Meanwhile, there are so many ways to structure a situation, it's refreshing. I like to spend time figuring out group synergies AND do solo play. There's no need to stratify.

And that brings me to my final point, which is that with the way this game works, there a lot more possibilities as to how a group works together. As a cow tank, I've been amused to watch how agro functions. Right now there are several players who can top my huge taunts with blazing dps. And that's not so bad, if as a tank, you also set up good support and heals as well. Recently a lot of classes got a taunt skill, which allows the possibility of flipping the boss around like a beach ball!

If there are some groups that enjoy just mowing things down, that's fine. If there are groups who need traditional support of tank and heals, that's great. And if there are players who don't focus on group activities, that's fantastic too.

So when this discussion happens, and it always will, I'm confident in saying that Project Gorgon will defy standard game expectations. No situation should become predefined or solidified in the way so many mmos have fallen into. As players, let's not let that happen by being open to exploring all the possibilities. Moooooo!

[cr00cy]

Some tiem ago (few months) there was similar discussion. Ciitan the stated that reason why soem palyers cna solo most, if not all content in game is becasue tehya re over-geared. Accordign to what he said, "outdoor" countent should be doable with blue, level appropite gear. Solo dungeons shoudl be duable with pinkish gear, group dungeoins with purple gear.

Right now many players run aroudn with (almost) full yellows. Before last big update, i had max-enchanted sets for 3 diffrent builds.

Accordign to what Citan once said this effectivly mad me aroudn lv 75. In lv 60 content.

This kind of power is not ment to be achived at this point in game. After all i cant imagine anyone will bother making full set of yellow max-enchanted gear for leveling.
Peopel ahve ti becaue lv 60 was "max" for few months now

So i wouldnt worry too much about few people being able to solo most content in game. Not only we are long way from true end-game, there will be tons of balance changes on the way.

[Spiritfingers]

Actually I've heard from many people that they are way over geared for the current content. I like solo and group oriented content. Hopefully not too many of the new players get over-geared before launch. Having weaker builds that can't solo everything is great for people like me who want to group up. I look forward to seeing what kind of balance all builds have with each other and all those builds with mob strength.

[Crissa]

I've had trouble replacing some pieces of gear. Particularly chest pieces. And taunt specials seem too easy to get on gear, too.

But once you have a yellow, sometimes that extra ability is just better than having more of one. Usually more of one you don't need more of...

[lilibat]

I am pretty much always solo unless I am playing with my husband then we duo. I don't really like grouping very much for a multitude of reasons. If I had IRL friends playing PG I'd be more likely to group.

As far as builds I like to find something I enjoy and stick to that. I have been doing mostly Necro/Ment but was getting as little frustrated with it which is why I took a break. I just can't think of any other combo I'd rather do right now. I'll come back probably in a month or so, as I do miss PG.

[Spiritfingers]

I am pretty much always solo unless I am playing with my husband then we duo. I don't really like grouping very much for a multitude of reasons. If I had IRL friends playing PG I'd be more likely to group.

As far as builds I like to find something I enjoy and stick to that. I have been doing mostly Necro/Ment but was getting as little frustrated with it which is why I took a break. I just can't think of any other combo I'd rather do right now. I'll come back probably in a month or so, as I do miss PG.

If that is the only build you like to play, I can see why you stopped. Mentalism was nerfed hard. My hope is PG finds a balance between solo play and group play. I'm hoping the group play isn't only dungeons.

[lilibat]

If that is the only build you like to play, I can see why you stopped. Mentalism was nerfed hard. My hope is PG finds a balance between solo play and group play. I'm hoping the group play isn't only dungeons.


It's not just that. Necro being so completely dependant on pets now, if they die that's it. You're done. Time to start whatever you are doing over from where ever you can resummon them. I just got sick of having to either suicide to get back to the sun vale zone in or having to run back. Back before the necro equipment got chjanged I could just switch to non-pet abilities and get by but since there are fewer equipment buffs for that stuff not having pets isn't viable any more. It's really not fun.

[Spiritfingers]

Aha understand now. That is an especially tough scenario if you like the solo. You can solo on probably every combat skill. Taking a long break will bring you back refreshed to try it all again. I know..I've taken really long breaks in the game before.

[Hood]

I like to play tanky builds that do decent dmg solo. That way I can have a working role in groups and on my own.

[Spiritfingers]

There are so many options for tanky builds in this game. I'm sure you can find a way to solo through the entire game minus Mants/Pask/Dungeons. I'm hoping for group options outside of that. Maybe create cross class combos and make the AI change it's threat meters on the fly. An example of that type of change could be healing or buffing creating threat. Add a variety of attacks to mobs besides just dps. Give them more advanced group tactics.

[Yaksnot]

I was having a really good discussion with a guild earlier today. We were talking about current builds that allow you to solo through almost all content. Would you guys like to see more role oriented content or are you happy with playing solo? If game remains a "dps race", why even have as many combat skills as the game does (even more when deciding on combat combos)?

Hmm. If i am under standing the issue here its a build that you can slowly solo content with VS a group dynimis where you have tank, heals and deeps?

a Couple points:

1) with all the skills i think its very viable to be able to do both, to me thats one of the great things about the load-out ability. So i am thinking thats what the devs have in mind.

2) if a person is maxxed out gears right now and can solo things, i dont feel that is a reflection on how that will work at what the max level cap will be, that being said do i have an issue with someone with max aug-gears with a brilliant set up going out and being able to solo things? no i dont. as long as its not some imba expoilt. if a person can slowly grind max lvl mobs, well done i say.

hope i didnt missunderstand this.

my 2 cents

Yak

[Dibbuk]

My play time is not consistent, and is always subject to interruption. As a result, I tend to do most of my hunting and questing solo.

Spur-of-the-moment questing is fine, but the TIME required to move from one area to another means any quest is likely to require far too much time just to assemble at a given location.

[Oxlazr]

The game lacks a degree of consistency, I think, so it's nearly always better to build your character to suit all situations (i.e. solo) rather than make a group character.

As it stands, all dungeons can be done by simply adding more numbers to the group - regardless of character builds, so this lends preference to solo builds further.

There isn't enough personal investment required to cap out a particular skillset to define your character by that role, as you can easily drop and shuffle around skills at a whim, so naturally people will experiment more and tend towards what works, rather than trying to work off each others weaknesses in a group.

Everything's pooled into a single character, as well. So not only do characters end up being more flexible, they're more powerful (that's a pun, a lot of secondary skills award power bonuses). It seems expected at this stage that players would at least have items available to them for solo-play.

You don't see people looking for X role for specific content. Everyone just looks for numbers; the more the merrier kind of deal. It works in its own way, but I'm not so sure group content benefits for it.

I remember in the past, a lot of dungeons were made less soloable, but instead of grouping up people would just further optimise their builds until they could solo it again.

[snowe]

Some impressions from group play:

- The GUI isn't particularly well-suited to support role players monitoring party member's conditions.

- Few people heal others by skill design, and tank aggro is generally problematic when mobbed, which leads to high-DPS group mates 'soloing together'.

- Experience seems divided in such a way as to discourage grouping to level (which can be fun).

Some observations from solo play:

- Respawn can be too quick when combined with wanderers to pull and clear your way though some level-appropriate areas.

- Soloing the first play through is very fun. Advancing a second skill line pair, however, is not so fun due to content repetition. This has resulted in my late 40's fire magic progression being temporarily arrested by Elite Dangerous.

A balance pass I would like to see:

Instead of balancing group vs. solo (dungeons vs. other) almost exclusively by having large numbers of mobs, with frequent wandering adds and high respawn rates... have a few group areas that are balanced around having fewer mobs that are encountered in a more structured way and are more challenging for that level (the 'elite' mob, if you will) instead. If a dungeon yielded good experience and good loot, and generally required someone to tank and hold aggro, someone to primarily heal and others to primarily apply damage, you might see more people creating structured groups to crawl through level-appropriate content rather than just forming high-dps duos and trios to out-dps respawn.

Note: I have not yet been through the mythical 'labs' dungeon.

[lilibat]

I would be much more enthusiastic about grouping if there was a pure healer ability. Please don't suggest Pig, I HATE pig.

[Spiritfingers]

I would be much more enthusiastic about grouping if there was a pure healer ability. Please don't suggest Pig, I HATE pig.

I haven't had the honor of playing a pig. I think Eric is smart to design all non combat skills to be done solo. I guess I'm looking for more meaningful group opportunities. That definitely would require more specific roles for grouping and different AI for those mobs. I think back to a game like Guild Wars 1. In that game the mobs changed targets all the time and they were able to use the same combat skills that players could. Maybe PG doesn't need to go that extreme with group content...but maybe make mobs more than dps machines. Also a good way to produce grouping opportunities could be through cross build combos. Example, player A can create a water field. Player B cast a fire spell in the area that produces steam, which then blinds mobs in the area of effect.

[lilibat]

Also a good way to produce grouping opportunities could be through cross build combos. Example, player A can create a water field. Player B cast a fire spell in the area that produces steam, which then blinds mobs in the area of effect.

Camelot Unchained is doing that actually. Of course that is a PvP game with no PVE at all.

[Spiritfingers]

Camelot Unchained is doing that actually. Of course that is a PvP game with no PVE at all.

I believe this type of game play would so work in PG. Unfortunately, I don't know if this type of mob AI or combat combos will even be discussed.

[Kanbe]

Also a good way to produce grouping opportunities could be through cross build combos. Example, player A can create a water field. Player B cast a fire spell in the area that produces steam, which then blinds mobs in the area of effect.


Camelot Unchained is doing that actually. Of course that is a PvP game with no PVE at all.


GW2 has this and that is mostly a PvE game. though, at least when I last played, they seemed to mostly just be used for buff stacking.

[drivendawn]

Well we know that if you build yourself right you can make yourself into a role. Whether that be tank, healer, DD, buff debuffer, or even CC is possible. When the new UI gets put in I hope it only allows 5 to 6 players to a group. Then bringing tons of people isn't going to work anymore and there will be more group planing and who will be doing what roles in said groups. Another words allow for more group Interdependency which would make grouping more fun and interesting in the open world but even more so in dungeons.

[alleryn]

Well we know that if you build yourself right you can make yourself into a role. Whether that be tank, healer, DD, buff debuffer, or even CC is possible. When the new UI gets put in I hope it only allows 5 to 6 players to a group. Then bringing tons of people isn't going to work anymore and there will be more group planing and who will be doing what roles in said groups. Another words allow for more group Interdependency which would make grouping more fun and interesting in the open world but even more so in dungeons.

I second this. Outmatching your opponents just by outnumbering them isn't interesting strategically.

[Crissa]

Always having healer-tank isn't interesting, either.

[alleryn]

Always having healer-tank isn't interesting, either.

It's infinitely more interesting than "we outnumber you and outdps you by enough ratio that there is literally no danger if we just press all the buttons at once", imo.

[drivendawn]

It's infinitely more interesting than "we outnumber you and outdps you by enough ratio that there is literally no danger if we just press all the buttons at once", imo.

Indeed, one big chaotic mess if you ask me.:(

[Spiritfingers]

I have played many mmos with specific roles or every class can do everything. If mobs just sit there and take hits, I find the specific role games more fun. Learning how to work with others is always a challenge and for me more fun. If mob AI is more like players, specific roles are definitely more fun in a group. I also agree with Crissa. Healer/tank roles aren't always fun either. The best of both worlds would be to have maybe 4-5 other roles a player can play besides healing/tanking and increase mob intelligence.

[Caustic]

The major advantage in this game is that it is hard to make a mistake with your character. Getting fed up with being the tank? Just switch to other skills.

You will always have people that are "better" geared, they put more time in and optimise their gear. I really really DONT want people to be handed gear etc. That screwed up too many other MMO's due to whining kids thinking that they should always be given everything without working at it. I see the results of that in work all the time.....

[Spiritfingers]

The major advantage in this game is that it is hard to make a mistake with your character. Getting fed up with being the tank? Just switch to other skills.

You will always have people that are "better" geared, they put more time in and optimise their gear. I really really DONT want people to be handed gear etc. That screwed up too many other MMO's due to whining kids thinking that they should always be given everything without working at it. I see the results of that in work all the time.....

If my luck is typical in this game, once you turn 60/60 you will get a purple or yellow piece of gear that actually matches the skills you are using on your hotbar 5% of the time. Now that I'm finally leveling augmentation and transmutation, I'll be able to change better gear in the future. Good hasn't been handed out easily to me at all. I'm been 60/60 since around February of 2015.

[Sasho]

I guess the first step would be to incentivize having a group in the first place, for example making a way for "AoE" spells to be switched to "Group" spells.

Perhaps BC could actually have a stronger heal health / heal armor spell than the one currently there (as 100 health really isn't doing that many people a favor in the 10 meters around you). Then instead of affect those around you on the ground, it can affect all group members in a very large range. Stuff like this would actually give someone the distinct role of healer while also encouraging them to be in an actually "Group," and not just fighting side by side.

[Spiritfingers]

Yeah, there really isn't any reason to group in the game unless you are doing lvl 60 elite stuff. And you are right, healing isn't strong enough and buffing isn't strong enough. What good is it for me to buff your damage by +25 when we are fighting mobs with 10k health?

[kell.shepherd]

It could be in game and I may not have seen the option but my difficulty with grouping is the inability to always have party members health show. Again, I may be missing the option but it's not for a lack of looking (very possibly a lack of seeing).

[Spiritfingers]

It could be in game and I may not have seen the option but my difficulty with grouping is the inability to always have party members health show. Again, I may be missing the option but it's not for a lack of looking (very possibly a lack of seeing).

You can always see party members health and power. You can find it by clicking the bottom icon on the left side of the screen. You can't see the actual numbers but you can see how much of the heart of pink versus gone. Actual health amounts is probably better because healing is a specific amount. If healing was a % then it wouldn't matter.