PDA

View Full Version : Gazluk Keep feedback



Niph
04-10-2017, 03:51 PM
I have explored Gazluk Keep (GK) with several groups since the last change (march 25th), so this is feedback with the new group size (6 max), loot rules and with pull abilities such as Hook Shot removed.


First of all, GK is in my opinion a well-designed area in term of layout, population and atmosphere. Despite some empty areas that perhaps will be populated later, and of course the fact that the way to third floor is closed off.


Elites mobs (infiltrators, tacticians, etc.) are sufficiently challenging to be difficult to solo, but doable as a duo. As you progress within GK tunnels, a third member is necessary or you won't be able to beat the respawn, and finally with 4 people in the group you can crawl through mobs and still be able to survive the occasional bad pull.


With Hook Shot and Grappling Web no longer usable as pulling tool, body pull is again the only way to bring mobs to the group. Given the design of the place, an experienced puller is required or eventually a mistake will happen, resulting in a wipe. Even then, with all the roamers it's sometimes hard to avoid pulling several mobs together. All in all, a challenging place doable with discipline and practice.


Some bosses are sufficiently difficult that a group of 4 can easily wipe to them, even with good gear, but still doable with a full group. I don't think I ever wiped in the later configuration.


Now for things that could be improved:


1. As a group-only dungeon, one might expect people to wait at entrance in the hope that someone shows up and a group can get started. However, currently entrance in GK is pretty hard to solo, and waiting outside probably doesn't work, because of respawn and because in other games I've always seen people waiting inside a dungeon, not outside.
So my suggestion would be to populate entrance with, for instance, the same mobs as outside, or with mobs with the same RvR.


2. We noticed that one of the quadrants (NE?) on second floor has observers in it, and these mobs pretty much require a druid to be killable. At least we guess, since the last two groups I went there with either didn't have a druid or the druid did not have the proper staff to play.
Is this area designed for some druid event? We did not see any boss there. Anyway, in the past a group of 10 was likely to have a druid in it, but it's not so true in a group of 6.


3. The result of respawn is unchanged. Respawn = you wipe, always. I haven't survived a respawn since the beginning of the year. I can understand the desire, from a game design perspective, to prevent camping an area, and sort of force groups to move all the time. But I think it's too harsh right now.
My suggestion would be to have a respawn queue per area, with something like a five second interval. If mobs all pop together, a group has no chance, but if they spawned one at a time every five second (for instance) then the group might be able to survive it.


4. GK is huge, that means going somewhere takes time. This is OK with people like me, that can commit to play for hours. It works with groups of 6, but as time passes odds are one or more members of the group will want to take a break (they can't, remember respawn?) or stop altogether. In practice it means few groups will actually go down to the second floor and play there consistently. GK may be huge, but if groups don't have the time and commitment to reach its deepest parts, what's the point?
(As I write this, someone just offered to start a GK group, but people declined because it's 22:30 and that's too late.)
Suggestion: there are several possibilities depending on where the game is going:
. Add shortcuts so that people can go quickly from point A to point B (secret passages, portals).
. Add an ability to summon people to the group, to replace a group member that has to leave without requiring the entire group to return to zone in.
. Add some auto-follow feature for people that need to take a short break. Probably a bad idea because it would make the game too easy to bot, I guess.


On a more general note, I would say that DPS is still king. On trash (including elite mobs), the best tactic is often to stun the mob and burn it down. Two stunners usually keep one mob stun-locked long enough (less than 10 seconds) to avoid any damage it might do. So, mobs that actually damage the group are those with long range attacks (infiltrators, mage) and those that manage a rage attack that disables all abilities (tactician). Even then, there is often little to heal. Of course a bad pull will change that, but the most effective tactic then seems to be to AoE everything hard.
And finally, bosses are the extreme case of DPS requirement. It currently does not seem possible to keep aggro with tanking skills, so the goal of the group is to burn down the boss before it manages to wipe them. The most successful groups I've been with would do it in 30s or less, beyond that characters start to bite the dust.

Crissa
04-10-2017, 06:25 PM
The respawn and no safe zones seem both challenging and... Not actually good for players who have biological needs. o-o

Khaylara
04-10-2017, 07:05 PM
Strongly agree with points 3 and 4 and with the suggestions.

Niph is a great puller but it's something that bothered me since the start in dungeons: the holding aggro problem. The lack of something that could be called a tank who can taunt and hold aggro properly. In the GK groups I've been (after archers became obsolete as tanks) we either have Niph (utility+heals) or a swordsman who dies every few minutes religiously:) Imho the skillsets which are made to be tanky (cow, shield, staff) should probably have the tools to survive and hold aggro.
At the moment it's not working, the best example is the golem in GK aggroing on me repeatedly although the only skill I used was Blocking stance (I used Blocking stance once then started running in all honesty, I have no idea why the aggro). From autopsies I'd say it's broken. My autopsies in GK fail a lot so I can't offer accurate data but I can see the mobs aggroing randomly on party members who heal or buff or use defensive skills (not GK related but I checked few manticore autopsies that confirm it).

Crissa
04-10-2017, 10:34 PM
I know I'm pretty good at holding aggro, but I've noticed alot of threat comes from gear, and that seems antithetical to actually surviving.

Niph
04-11-2017, 01:17 AM
I forgot to mention in the positive feedback that there are some safe spots, I know at least two.

Khaylara
04-11-2017, 07:39 AM
I forgot to mention in the positive feedback that there are some safe spots, I know at least two.


When the respawn mechanics were changed a while ago I'm sure you were in winter nexus after. It was pretty horrible, about 11 mobs would respawn on top of the group while we were killing still the first wave of mobs.
I experienced that the other day in GK, I'm not sure it's intentional or not working properly though. If the respawn mechanic is kept as it is now it kinda punishes groups that move slower (less dps based groups) along with preventing camping. Also not sure if camping is a bad thing in GK? Few small groups camping rooms where a lot of mobs spawn i mean.

Aedorn
04-11-2017, 07:57 AM
At the moment it's not working, the best example is the golem in GK aggroing on me repeatedly although the only skill I used was Blocking stance (I used Blocking stance once then started running in all honesty, I have no idea why the aggro). From autopsies I'd say it's broken. My autopsies in GK fail a lot so I can't offer accurate data but I can see the mobs aggroing randomly on party members who heal or buff or use defensive skills (not GK related but I checked few manticore autopsies that confirm it).

That's because all threat right now is living in opposite world. Lowest means most targeted, and highest means never hit. You can easily see this in action by nearly killing something, and then having someone run by too close. Person that runs by will then be targeted, which if they're still running and the thing you were fighting is a fast runner, it's the most annoying thing in the world.

So if it's going in order of a list, said list is inverted, or the direction of traversal is.

As for respawns, I agree. Then again, I've probably complained about it the most. The problem is that the whole respawning system right now is a very double edged sword. On one hand, you need to be able to repopulate an area sufficiently enough so that it's not in a constant cleared state and people have something to work through. On the other hand, it kills everyone when it's on top, and that happens more than not. It's not just GK, either, as you can have it happen everywhere. We've died to it in Labs where otherwise we would never die, or solo out in the wilds because an entire area could be cleared and the entirety of it would just respawn at the same time leaving no place (or time) to run to and be safe.

Caustic
04-13-2017, 09:52 AM
Being Euro based I loved playing on weekends and catching USA players and other off peak people to go do labs. You would get maybe 1-2 labs during the week and maybe 2-3 at the weekend. In fact you would turn some down.

Add Gazluk and the same applied, was invited to groups or would see a server tell that a group was starting.

Since the group change, I have had zero chances to go to Gazluk. As predicted guilds now keep it to themselves as they can generally get enough people.

Maybe its as im a Euro player but my interest in the game since I finished levelling my last skill combo to 70 is now ZERO. I have no chance or at best very limited chance to get the top end gear.

Whilst the numbers are so low adding these kind of restrictions is way too painful.

Well until there is a change in the group system or more people then reluctantly I just cant play a game with no chance at getting reasonable top end gear when I am playing hardcore. I might log on for my alt occasionally but for now I have stopped playing, which is a shame as I previously have found the game addictive (I was playing every day for multiple hours) but I am now effectively with that change a second class player.

Niph
04-13-2017, 11:48 AM
You can duo entrance. Not everyone likes to just duo difficult mobs, but maybe you can find someone, and with time eventually a group of regulars might form.

Khaylara
04-13-2017, 12:36 PM
Caustic if you mean hardcore player as in HC mode I don't know much about it but according to Niph it's not the best armor in game anymore.

Also something that's not just personal opinion. The GK armor is not the top tier, top quality gear. The top is still the crafted gear and when you said that you leveled your skillsets to 70 I'm assuming you mean combat skillsets. I would lvl craftskills if I'm maxed in combat skillsets, lw, carpentry, etc would yield much better results than GK farming.

Caustic
04-14-2017, 07:50 AM
I have 3 sets of combat skills of level 70 with gear. I am maxed (all main ones that are useful to me and i.e. at least 70+) in all tradeskills and I can assure you that tradeskilled gear is NOT better than drop gear. The only exception I can think of offhand to that is with staffs (even that is debatable as the GK staffs for staff fighting are better)

My mistake, I meant hardcore as in playing a lot at the top end not as in hardcore gear which is borked at the moment as you quite rightly said.
Niph Yes I could stay in the entrance but I cant solo so I would need at least one other and tbh my life isnt that bad when I need to stay somewhere hoping that people *might* turn up and find that when they do they already are in a group of 6..... cause they are unlikely to go there without 6 stated in your post :)

Hoxard
04-14-2017, 01:04 PM
Ever since the group size changes, I haven't even set foot in Gazluk at all. There is absolutely no chance of me getting into a group for GK, doing well and enjoying the run. I may be in a full set of level 70 max-enchanted yellow/magenta gear, but I'm still dead weight in GK and I no longer have any reason to go there except to level orcish and maybe get a better ring and necklace.

Once the dungeon is no longer the current end game, I can't imagine anyone doing GK at the appropriate level. It seems about as plausible as a group of level 30s doing Dark Chapel.

Niph
04-14-2017, 04:30 PM
I may be in a full set of level 70 max-enchanted yellow/magenta gear, but I'm still dead weight in GK[...]

Can you elaborate? I don't see how that's possible.

Hoxard
04-14-2017, 06:17 PM
Deer/Mentalism.
Head is max-enchanted magenta
Chest is max-enchanted yellow
Pants are max-enchanted yellow(only level 60 though because the recipe is bugged)
Gloves are max-enchanted yellow
Shoes are normal magenta, since there's no max-enchanted deer shoes
Main hand is a yellow drop from GK
Offhand is a magenta drop from GK
Necklace is a level 50 yellow from Rahu
Ring is a level 65 magenta from the overworld orcs around GK

My contribution during a typical GK run is typically 1-2 attacks before the mob is dead and the pull is over. I never get the most damage done on trash mobs except during large pulls when I can use agonize and cuteness overload on a target nobody else is attacking. On bosses, I'm typically 3rd or 4th damage done at best, usually lower. The only time I actually contribute anything meaningful is when too many mobs are pulled at once and I get to use panic charge+king of the forest, this usually does not prevent a wipe though. My only utility is one heal, two stuns and two rage reducers, though that's because I use an offensive mentalism setup(better for soloing).

The build is excellent for solo content and works just fine for lower level group content, but it has no meaningful contribution in GK.

sudostahp
04-14-2017, 09:48 PM
The build is excellent for solo content and works just fine for lower level group content, but it has no meaningful contribution in GK.

That's how I feel about Battle Chemistry in GK. Good enough for solo content, but laughable where single target DPS is important.

Caustic
04-15-2017, 02:52 PM
Hoxard - with mentalism your main use is to play power with mods. You will keep the group perma full. Thats major use without anything else. But yes I can see your problem, only agonise and panic charge are good dmg in ment really. No idea on the deer, not something I did.

Niph
04-15-2017, 03:56 PM
Just to clarify, my suggestion in general (GK or elsewhere) is to look for someone else to duo with *before* going to the dungeon. Two people unable to solo make the beginning of a group able to duo. This can be done in the global or help chat while doing something else. There is no shame in asking, and for every group of 2 or 6, there is someone that dared starting it.

As for Deer/Mentalism, I've never tried this combo but it sounds decent if not built to DPS. The fact that Deer can't perform as tank certainly doesn't help, of course. But remember, in every group, with no exception, there is always one that performs the best and one that performs the worst. And a group of five with you (the reader of this) is better than a group of five without.

Crissa
04-15-2017, 04:30 PM
That's an interesting problem - that support abilities that play out in longer combats don't really work in group nova play and that gear that specializes in group support skills is really, really useless outside of that one niche.

Hmm.

Sasho
04-18-2017, 03:48 PM
The hardest part of Fort Gazluk is finding the time to go through it. It's become a "weekend dungeon." It can easily take around 4 hours to do one portion of the dungeon because, 1) the time it just takes to gather there, and 2) the pace we take to move through it safely. The last 5 runs I've done have consisted of just doing half of the top half of the first floor before everyone is either dead or done. Fort Gazluk just isn't fun anymore for me right now.

I'd like to see hook shot revived, and also a higher drop rate of keys.

Khaylara
04-18-2017, 04:07 PM
Niph suggested some shortcuts because you are right, it takes too long to do a run, even a partial one. In which time you have to clear the same area twice in some cases. I run it more than on weekends but I get really burnt out if I do more than 4 runs per week. It's hard to pass cause it's good cash and it's fun with the right group but it really requires a player to be glued to the computer for 3-4 hours with very short breaks.
Imho hook shot removal is fine cause now we have to run with a real puller and be more disciplined with nukes and positioning. Keys yes, maybe require 1 or 2 instead of 3 they really don't drop that often anymore.