Total Character Wipe

[Delceri]

Hey All,

I read the August 13th post that no full character wipe will happen as "payment" for alpha testing. Isn't this extremely unfair to new comers? I hadn't even heard about this game until recently. I've been taking notes of various npcs, quests & rewards, locations for mobs, etc(before someone says wiki, the wiki is wrong or missing info entirely in several places) to get a good start and fully expecting to wipe, only to realize people are going to retain *most of their skills*. Getting rid of their money and gear won't add real balance, as high level players will easily just farm back what they need(nobody needs millions of councils, just a solid set of gear). I realize that if I continue to play now, by release time I can catch up in skills if I focus on a few things. However I still find this unfair to even newer players, and I also like the idea of competing/building with others from a blank slate with the game fully completed(ish, no launch is perfect).

A lot of games don't wipe their *final wave* of *beta testing*, but alpha? Isn't there a better alternative here? One of the benefits of being a tester is having vast amounts of knowledge over other players for a solid edge anyways.

TLDR; Full Character Wipe should happen at launch or near to launch.

[Niph]

There are several things to consider.

1. If you want testers that stay long enough to test the end game, you need to reward them in some way. Currently, PG is so good that playing it is in itself a reward, but a full wipe would kill that.

2. It's a blessing for new players because they have established guilds and veteran players to provide guidance and come their help, should they be cursed for instance.

3. If you like competition when starting blank, that's a valid reason to play but PG can't please every style. Maybe there is another game around that is more for you then.

4. If the game is really successful, they might start new servers, and you wish will be fulfilled.

Regarding the wiki, it's a moving target, hence imperfect. Please fill the blanks. :)

[ANT3RA]

In what way do you see it as being "unfair" to newcomers?

Would you feel that way if you stepped into PG 2 years after release, and needed to "catch up" as you put it? You are still a newcomer and other players have more then you do at that point.

Is it how quickly Player A (alpha tester) can reach Point X in the game before a new player can? Does this really affect the experience of a new player? The new player would have no clue at this point that Player A even existed. I really do not envisage players going for "world firsts" in this game.

Is it how quickly someone can accumulate wealth and the ability to craft as a result, upon game release? How does this affect the way a new player plays or experiences the game? This is only beneficial to the new player who can get assistance and maybe gear and coin from the seasoned and skilled up players.

What will be so out of balance, as you put it? The economy? The player vendors and the community will dictate economy, and this will always be fluctuating according to the demand and supply of items on any given day. Very very rarely is an in game economy governed by a handful of well organised players.

PG has been around in the testing phase for over 2 years as far as i know. I would like to think that constantly having our skills and items changed and deleted etc due to development stages gives credence to some form of gratitude from the developers. The no skills (some) reset is just that. As the developers put it, testing a game is hard work, putting up with bugs, constant changes, broken skills and mechanics etc. All of us who play the game in its current ever-changing state do so with a passion to make PG a success. Some of us even provide financial assistance to make it happen.

There is nothing to compete about in this game from a player to player perspective. I would argue that this game is about community and helping each other out, not concerning ourselves over who has more of something, or who can piss the farthest. If it is PVP, then FYI PVP is and always will play second fiddle to PVE in PG. So PVP is not a real reason. I know this paragraph can be argued and many have different opinions about this subject.

If you are worried that a player who has been playing since day one of pre-alpha has better gear or other items then you then you are going to be disappointed to know that someone will always have something better then you in an MMO. This is regardless of when you started the game.

FYI the wiki is a living document, you could say it is also in alpha stage, juts like the game. Only so much can be put on the wiki that will remain current until the next patch etc. Over time with the development of the game, the wiki will go through many edits and structure changes. Use the wiki at your own discretion. There is a disclaimer and caveats of its use on the front page for a reason.

I hope you enjoy PG as much as I and many others do. I personally think we are lucky to be involved in the development of the game as testers.

The concerns and opinions you have expressed are valid, as is anyone else's opinion about other game related matters on these forums. I do however think it is hardly game breaking or progression breaking for new players. That is my opinion on the subject.

Cheers
Ants

[Mortitia]

A lot of games don't wipe their *final wave* of *beta testing*, but alpha?

This is the key point and i think part of the misunderstanding, and maybe a mistake from the devs. I dont feel and i dont think we are in alpha, it's more like a long beta and sometimes i play it like a finished game. The devs say alpha to lower the pressure from players or mmo websites. That said, players who dont know the game will just take the option to wait after "alpha" when they could just hop on now and have fun with us, removing their potential gap at release.

[Khaylara]

"PG has been around in the testing phase for over 2 years as far as i know."

Small correction, more like 5 years going on 6 I believe.:) First time I checked it and it was playable was 2012 I think. I effectively started playing in 2014 and some of the players that I see often were around then and obviously more advanced than me. Some of them actually helped me get started, I got lots of useful tips and advice.
Even if we were to get a full wipe (which would be wiping years of playing for some of us) anyone with some game experience would progress much, much faster than a real newbie. I'd rather use my game knowledge to help new players than to focus on remaking my characters.

[ANT3RA]

"PG has been around in the testing phase for over 2 years as far as i know."

Small correction, more like 5 years going on 6 I believe.:) First time I checked it and it was playable was 2012 I think. I effectively started playing in 2014 and some of the players that I see often were around then and obviously more advanced than me. Some of them actually helped me get started, I got lots of useful tips and advice.
Even if we were to get a full wipe (which would be wiping years of playing for some of us) anyone with some game experience would progress much, much faster than a real newbie. I'd rather use my game knowledge to help new players than to focus on remaking my characters.

Thanks for clarifying. I thought I was wrong when i typed that.

[Hood]

Trolls, the least you can do is search the forums for similar posts *before* starting another terrible thread regarding the same tired thing that's brought up each month.

[Aionlasting]

Its really not unfair considering the amount of sweat blood and tears that go into a character's development. This isn't like other MMO's. There isn't some end game content you need to rush too so youre not at a disadvantage unless your goal is to play through the game as quickly as possible or reach 'the end' first. This isn't a race. I've been playing 2 years and i'd say i'm middle of the pack as far as accomplishments and progression but I wouldn't want those two years erased.

[Tchey]

Considering PG is not competitive thanks mostly to its PvE-only factor, i fully don't care about a wipe.

Me, myself and i, we will anyway start a new toon from zero, beside the huge bonus of knowledge about the game by itself.

I'd be curious to know who will start from zero, or why not.

[Niph]

I'd be curious to know who will start from zero, or why not.

I don't know anyone who would start from zero when the rest of the population doesn't. As for why not, my toon has acquired a lot of skill points through grinding (Poetry 40 for instance). I wouldn't redo this grinding, unless it's done with different content.

Think of it as enjoying a journey rather than enjoying reaching the destination. When I'm at the end, redoing the same journey from the beginning isn't terribly attractive. I rather see new landscape.

[ShieldBreaker]

If one wants to start from scratch why not look forward to playing as one of the to-be-added player races. And if things go well expansions will include new playing races that we don't even suspect yet, so there will be things that have a start point that everyone post launch can maybe get in on.

Personally with new races going to start from zero at least a couple more times. One will receive aid from his alter-egos, one is going to go it entirely alone.

In real life everyone born before you got a head start, but it doesn't really matter does it? Things should even out with time. And it would be difficult to change the stated intent that it is not total wipe. There is going to be enough drama with the partial wipe, with pleas for more wipe, less wipe and why my absolute favorite thing going to be diminished.

[tangar]

In general I like wipes in MMORPG, they give game a new birth. Fresh start always encouraging for old and new players. Newbie time - it's the best time in any MMORPG and I always glad to repeat it again and again :) Newbie locations full of players - the best spectacle lol

But I'll be glad to play PG in any case - with or without wipes :) Devs know their stuff and would make everything perfect I belive :) (http://mmoforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=353&p=651)

[rastaah]

This is usual as in every Alpha/Beta I have played this always comes up .

I am not for a wipe even though I just got here not very long ago myself. Why? I don't care that much is why , I am easy going, I play for fun, I am casual, not hardcore and I take the game at my own pace. I just don't care to play another 'zoom for cool items and status' game and is why I love this game is what matters here is the actual game content not shiny purple swords

Let them keep their characters they worked so hard on.

Ill just keep trucking along

[asalts]

1. Currently, PG is so good that playing it is in itself a reward, but a full wipe would kill that.


That's a contradiction

[cratoh]

It is brought up each month as a new bunch of people come and play, realise there is not going to be a wipe, and quit. Which I fully understand.

I still am keeping my fingers crossed for a second server with a fresh start.

[Easylivin]

It is brought up each month as a new bunch of people come and play, realise there is not going to be a wipe, and quit. Which I fully understand.

I still am keeping my fingers crossed for a second server with a fresh start.

who is quitting?

[cratoh]

The people who don't want to play a game where there is no wipe at the end of test phase, the people who like a level playing field at a launch where the only advantage is knowledge, the people who don't want to plunge headlong into play PG in it's present state and play it as a 'finished' game and want to wait for launch but won't because there is no wipe.

I believe there are many people who try the game and don't continue cos of the confusion surrounding what will/won't be wiped.

I understand about people wanting to hang on to all the different levels they have raised, I personally have invested a ton of time into the game, I've maxed several combat skills, taken many more to 60 and high 40s, and levelled loads of companion and craft skills, and level alts and have intricate storage/cash earning systems. I'd still relish the chance to do it all over again though from scratch on a new server. I have changed my tune a little, as I really was vocal about a complete wipe before, but I've come to relaise how massively attached some people are to these testing characters, and empathise with their feelings that they are owed a physical advantage at laucnh, knowledge not being enough, and the testing experience not being enough of a reward, which is why I don't mind the idea of the current server becoming a sort of legacy server.

However, I want the game to succeed, and by succeed I mean have a much larger player base - hence why I would like to see two servers at launch - the current one for people who tested with no wipe at all, keep everything - BUT no ne players allowed to roll on it. And a second server, starting from fresh like Eden, being the only server that new people can roll a character on. And allowing vet players from Alpha/Beta the opportunity to roll again. As in, the same character slot available on the virgin server. Just the only thing testers would take with them would be knowledge.

Cos lets be honest - on launch week, if you started playing a brand new game, but when you logged in there were already some high level characters running around it could well be off putting - and that might make for a rocky launch and less new players.

[Crissa]

I don't believe those people exist.

What is the point of having a game that retained from session to session if you have to start on a specific day and race forward and then have everything removed only to do it all again?

[cratoh]

Anyone up for a challenge? Take you main character, strip down to your keks and start on tutorial isle then see how many hours it takes to be hunting gazluk caves.

[Dunaden]

I just joined this game two weeks ago, so I can definitely see the perspective of how someone buying the game at the official launch and logging in to find an already established community, with established relationships and in-jokes, may find that a bit daunting and feel like they missed out on exploring virgin territory. But if they are warmly welcomed into the community, it should work out.

This is becoming the new model for online games, with Steam selling "early access" to games, and people paying to join Betas, there is always someone going to be there before you. And the MMO developers need these early players to test the thousands of items, quests, zones, and mechanics in the games as well as stress test the servers so they will be ready for the official launches.

I haven't seen anything stating if PG is launching with more than one server. If it is that is the case, the discussion of a wipe is moot. New players at launch can be given the option of joining an established veteran community of Alpha and Beta players or join a fresh server and help establish a new community there.

[Delceri]

A lot more responses than I expected. I am probably only going to reply to this many replies at one time only once. Sorry if anything comes off harsh, just trying to tackle through all of it quickly..no time for tact.


There are several things to consider.

1. If you want testers that stay long enough to test the end game, you need to reward them in some way. Currently, PG is so good that playing it is in itself a reward, but a full wipe would kill that.

2. It's a blessing for new players because they have established guilds and veteran players to provide guidance and come their help, should they be cursed for instance.

3. If you like competition when starting blank, that's a valid reason to play but PG can't please every style. Maybe there is another game around that is more for you then.

4. If the game is really successful, they might start new servers, and you wish will be fulfilled.

Regarding the wiki, it's a moving target, hence imperfect. Please fill the blanks. :)

1] A bit of a contradiction, but I'm not disagreeing with you on the point that they should reward testers, I just think the manner in which it is being done is suboptimal.
2] A wipe wouldn't change this. Guilds would still reform and veterans would still be educated, help can still be dished out.
3] I don't think pointing me to a different game is a good answer. But thanks for the reply anyways as at least you are being genuine.
4] That is true, however this type of decision can also impact the success of the game. I paid the $100 dollar pack, and I plan on playing even without a wipe, I just *personally* think its really really shitty. I wouldn't have even made this post but after talking to several other people about it who felt the same I decided to post. Some people I spoke to knew players who've already left after hearing this decision but I imagine that was awhile ago now.
5] (Wiki) yup.


In what way do you see it as being "unfair" to newcomers?

1] Would you feel that way if you stepped into PG 2 years after release, and needed to "catch up" as you put it? You are still a newcomer and other players have more then you do at that point.

2] Is it how quickly Player A (alpha tester) can reach Point X in the game before a new player can? Does this really affect the experience of a new player? The new player would have no clue at this point that Player A even existed. I really do not envisage players going for "world firsts" in this game.

3] Is it how quickly someone can accumulate wealth and the ability to craft as a result, upon game release? How does this affect the way a new player plays or experiences the game? This is only beneficial to the new player who can get assistance and maybe gear and coin from the seasoned and skilled up players.

4] What will be so out of balance, as you put it? The economy? The player vendors and the community will dictate economy, and this will always be fluctuating according to the demand and supply of items on any given day. Very very rarely is an in game economy governed by a handful of well organised players.

5] PG has been around in the testing phase for over 2 years as far as i know. I would like to think that constantly having our skills and items changed and deleted etc due to development stages gives credence to some form of gratitude from the developers. The no skills (some) reset is just that. As the developers put it, testing a game is hard work, putting up with bugs, constant changes, broken skills and mechanics etc. All of us who play the game in its current ever-changing state do so with a passion to make PG a success. Some of us even provide financial assistance to make it happen.

6] There is nothing to compete about in this game from a player to player perspective. I would argue that this game is about community and helping each other out, not concerning ourselves over who has more of something, or who can piss the farthest. If it is PVP, then FYI PVP is and always will play second fiddle to PVE in PG. So PVP is not a real reason. I know this paragraph can be argued and many have different opinions about this subject.

7] If you are worried that a player who has been playing since day one of pre-alpha has better gear or other items then you then you are going to be disappointed to know that someone will always have something better then you in an MMO. This is regardless of when you started the game.

8] FYI the wiki is a living document, you could say it is also in alpha stage, juts like the game. Only so much can be put on the wiki that will remain current until the next patch etc. Over time with the development of the game, the wiki will go through many edits and structure changes. Use the wiki at your own discretion. There is a disclaimer and caveats of its use on the front page for a reason.

9] I hope you enjoy PG as much as I and many others do. I personally think we are lucky to be involved in the development of the game as testers.

10] The concerns and opinions you have expressed are valid, as is anyone else's opinion about other game related matters on these forums. I do however think it is hardly game breaking or progression breaking for new players. That is my opinion on the subject.

Cheers
Ants

1] No I obviously would not feel that way, because the game would have been officially released for 2 years. This *is* factually entirely different and otherwise is your opinion of what a released game looks like.

2] Yes it does matter for players like me. If you aren't naturally competitive, you wouldn't understand.

3] Similar to #2 (https://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=2) . From your perspective, you are looking at how advanced players can help you speed up your game. Players like me want to trudge through the dirt and race other players to the end-game. Can I decide to not interact with advanced players, purchase their goods, etc? You might think yes, but the answer is no. Player vendors still would exist on a fresh slate, and I could in good conscience purchase items from them for example, do trades, etc to progress forward in the game and be "cheating"(how I would describe it). Furthermore, the farther you get in the game, the more valuable your own crafting becomes and your own traders. If players have far superior skills than me, they can easily farm materials faster and craft higher level gear way faster than I can.

4] "Very rarely." You might think that, but the reverse is true in my own experiences with video games. Additionally, money in this game isn't so hard to get, skills differences amongst themselves would be pretty out of balance. I won't deny that councils are valuable, but having skill advantages over a player is much more valuable and can also tip that financial balance amongst other things.

5] I agree, long time vets probably should receive some kind of award. I don't like the idea of players retaining their skills as a reward and that is my opinion. I've also dropped $100 dollars into this game and will subscribe to it, so yes...money..?

6] See #2 (https://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=2) , #3 (https://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=3) . You don't come off as the competitive type based on your answers. Nothing wrong with that.

7] It's not about the fact that someone "has more than me", its the rush of a fresh start and the whole experience. If other players are already OP, it will throw off the experience of creating and building a fresh character. See #3 (https://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=3) .

8] I honestly just threw the wiki thing in there as a very minor point. Surprised how much defense a wiki is getting, I realize that it's a wiki and that it isn't going to be 100% in alpha stage. It was more of a call for awareness "I've been working up data, btw your wiki is broke"(not just missing data). Clearly people are aware of that, I see that now.

9/10] Indeed, thanks for your opinion. In summary I think you are on the far opposite end of being a competitive player, so we'll never quite see eye to eye. I do really like this game, which is why I dropped money in, and will continue to play. However not having a wipe really kills any excitement I have for official release. I'll play the game, and enjoy it, again I just think that not wiping realllllllly sucks and will also suck for many new people.


A lot of games don't wipe their *final wave* of *beta testing*, but alpha?

1] This is the key point and i think part of the misunderstanding, and maybe a mistake from the devs. I dont feel and i dont think we are in alpha, it's more like a long beta and sometimes i play it like a finished game. The devs say alpha to lower the pressure from players or mmo websites. That said, players who dont know the game will just take the option to wait after "alpha" when they could just hop on now and have fun with us, removing their potential gap at release.

1] If you look at this game, you will see it is in alpha. They focused a lot on certain aspects of the game, so it feels like a "beta" in certain contexts, but it is extremely lacking in other departments like visuals. They call it an alpha, and I agree that is in alpha. You can't speak on behalf of the devs unless you can quote them that this is why they are calling it an alpha.


Its really not unfair considering the amount of sweat blood and tears that go into a character's development. This isn't like other MMO's. There isn't some end game content you need to rush too so youre not at a disadvantage unless your goal is to play through the game as quickly as possible or reach 'the end' first. This isn't a race. I've been playing 2 years and i'd say i'm middle of the pack as far as accomplishments and progression but I wouldn't want those two years erased.

2 years man. Brutal, that would suck for you, but I still hold my opinion.


Considering PG is not competitive thanks mostly to its PvE-only factor, i fully don't care about a wipe.

Me, myself and i, we will anyway start a new toon from zero, beside the huge bonus of knowledge about the game by itself.

I'd be curious to know who will start from zero, or why not.

I have a similar mindset to this. I don't think anyone will be starting from zero however, if there is no wipe.


I don't know anyone who would start from zero when the rest of the population doesn't. As for why not, my toon has acquired a lot of skill points through grinding (Poetry 40 for instance). I wouldn't redo this grinding, unless it's done with different content.

Think of it as enjoying a journey rather than enjoying reaching the destination. When I'm at the end, redoing the same journey from the beginning isn't terribly attractive. I rather see new landscape.

Yea that is another opinion. Thanks for the response.


If one wants to start from scratch why not look forward to playing as one of the to-be-added player races. And if things go well expansions will include new playing races that we don't even suspect yet, so there will be things that have a start point that everyone post launch can maybe get in on.

Personally with new races going to start from zero at least a couple more times. One will receive aid from his alter-egos, one is going to go it entirely alone.

In real life everyone born before you got a head start, but it doesn't really matter does it? Things should even out with time. And it would be difficult to change the stated intent that it is not total wipe. There is going to be enough drama with the partial wipe, with pleas for more wipe, less wipe and why my absolute favorite thing going to be diminished.

See my response to ANT3RA, #3 (https://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=3) . I am looking forward to making alts with the new races, despite the fact that some players are likely going to instantly be able to pick them and there will already be a monster economy / high level players to juice your character.


In general I like wipes in MMORPG, they give game a new birth. Fresh start always encouraging for old and new players. Newbie time - it's the best time in any MMORPG and I always glad to repeat it again and again :) Newbie locations full of players - the best spectacle lol

But I'll be glad to play PG in any case - with or without wipes :) Devs know their stuff and would make everything perfect I belive :) (http://mmoforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=353&p=651)

Devs will try to make everything perfect, but it isn't possible lol. I pretty much agree with this, and as a player who's been on games that wiped 1-2 years later and restarted... I had no problem personally. If the game is actually good, restarting is no problem. At some point however, a foot needs to be put down and say *no more wipes* so that people can rest easy. I think it's a bit early for PG to do that...hence this thread.


This is usual as in every Alpha/Beta I have played this always comes up .

I am not for a wipe even though I just got here not very long ago myself. Why? I don't care that much is why , I am easy going, I play for fun, I am casual, not hardcore and I take the game at my own pace. I just don't care to play another 'zoom for cool items and status' game and is why I love this game is what matters here is the actual game content not shiny purple swords

Let them keep their characters they worked so hard on.

Ill just keep trucking along

This was kind of a Billy Madison response for me.



That's a contradiction
Indeed.


The people who don't want to play a game where there is no wipe at the end of test phase, the people who like a level playing field at a launch where the only advantage is knowledge, the people who don't want to plunge headlong into play PG in it's present state and play it as a 'finished' game and want to wait for launch but won't because there is no wipe.

I believe there are many people who try the game and don't continue cos of the confusion surrounding what will/won't be wiped.

I understand about people wanting to hang on to all the different levels they have raised, I personally have invested a ton of time into the game, I've maxed several combat skills, taken many more to 60 and high 40s, and levelled loads of companion and craft skills, and level alts and have intricate storage/cash earning systems. I'd still relish the chance to do it all over again though from scratch on a new server. I have changed my tune a little, as I really was vocal about a complete wipe before, but I've come to relaise how massively attached some people are to these testing characters, and empathise with their feelings that they are owed a physical advantage at laucnh, knowledge not being enough, and the testing experience not being enough of a reward, which is why I don't mind the idea of the current server becoming a sort of legacy server.

However, I want the game to succeed, and by succeed I mean have a much larger player base - hence why I would like to see two servers at launch - the current one for people who tested with no wipe at all, keep everything - BUT no ne players allowed to roll on it. And a second server, starting from fresh like Eden, being the only server that new people can roll a character on. And allowing vet players from Alpha/Beta the opportunity to roll again. As in, the same character slot available on the virgin server. Just the only thing testers would take with them would be knowledge.

Cos lets be honest - on launch week, if you started playing a brand new game, but when you logged in there were already some high level characters running around it could well be off putting - and that might make for a rocky launch and less new players.

Depending on the reviews the game receives before official launch, and player size, I agree with this. 2 servers could actually be ideal if there are enough people to support it.


I just joined this game two weeks ago, so I can definitely see the perspective of how someone buying the game at the official launch and logging in to find an already established community, with established relationships and in-jokes, may find that a bit daunting and feel like they missed out on exploring virgin territory. But if they are warmly welcomed into the community, it should work out.

This is becoming the new model for online games, with Steam selling "early access" to games, and people paying to join Betas, there is always someone going to be there before you. And the MMO developers need these early players to test the thousands of items, quests, zones, and mechanics in the games as well as stress test the servers so they will be ready for the official launches.

I haven't seen anything stating if PG is launching with more than one server. If it is that is the case, the discussion of a wipe is moot. New players at launch can be given the option of joining an established veteran community of Alpha and Beta players or join a fresh server and help establish a new community there.


Purchasable early access games are almost always unethical by their very nature, and should die in a blaze of fire. Steam is filled with garbage now. Please do not repeat that it is the new model for online games, I'd like to think that the early purchase model is dying out because people are catching on and what you are saying is poison to my ears(or eyes, technically). I make an exception for a team like Project Gorgon because you can tell they are dedicated and care about their game. Otherwise, I really like the friendliness of your response lol thanks. I don't believe you understand my perspective at a first glance which is that I don't want to be helped by advanced players. I'd like to be at the front of the line, digging my way through it and working alongside players without the adverse affect of having op characters exist(in comparison to a new char).

Made it through, only 1 troll who didn't even bother to read my post. Obviously a lot of the current players are going to be biased towards keeping their characters if they feel that way, but in the grand scale of the game's release I think these opinions wouldn't be so loud.

[FURY]

I believe there are many people who try the game and don't continue cos of the confusion surrounding what will/won't be wiped.


Not sure where this is coming from, as they have stated quite clearly what will and will not be wiped.

Player Economy will be wiped. That means that all player gold and items.


They have also stated they *MAY* reduce/wipe economy skills like leather working, blacksmithing, tailoring, ect, simply because those skills can heavily effect player economy.

The only thing they haven't commented on is NPC favor which can be gotten fairly easily, if a bit of a grind.

[sudostahp]

9/10] Indeed, thanks for your opinion. In summary I think you are on the far opposite end of being a competitive player, so we'll never quite see eye to eye. I do really like this game, which is why I dropped money in, and will continue to play. However not having a wipe really kills any excitement I have for official release. I'll play the game, and enjoy it, again I just think that not wiping realllllllly sucks and will also suck for many new people.


ANT3RA might not be a competitive player, but I am. I enjoy grindy games and chasing world and server firsts. It took me about three months to max my first set of combat skills from when I started playing. It took me about a week to max Bard. I work full time and I'm working on my second master's part-time. Someone with fewer time commitments could 1-70 in just a few days or a week tops. It's a relatively short grind compared to other games, and knowledge is far more important than anything else. There's no point in a combat skill wipe. Veterans will have a strong advantage and be back on top before you leave Eltibule. Crafting skills are another story, but the only practical purpose of crafting is to fill high-end work orders. There's nothing to buy once you're maxed in a yellow suit aside from chasing cheesemaking and poetry appreciation, so I'm not sure that'll make much of a difference at all.

[lilibat]

If they wipe leatherworking they might as well completely wipe as far as I'm concerned. Raising crafting is much more work than leveling adventuring skills.

[sudostahp]

If they wipe leatherworking they might as well completely wipe as far as I'm concerned. Raising crafting is much more work than leveling adventuring skills.

True that. Some are better than others, but leather working and tailoring are an expensive and boring slog. Crafted gear is pretty much worthless without rare mats like vervadium, so there's no reason I can think of for wiping it. Industry and retail management, perhaps.

[Khaylara]

I agree with Niph and Ant3ra. It wouldn't be hard starting over but it would be boring af. I already did that 3 times and it's getting old. Imho people leaving because there will be no character wipe is kinda bs. For few reasons:

-older players help new players a LOT. If older players would be caught up in remaking their old chars they won't have time to help with tips or anything else.
-seeing what older players can do/make is an incentive for newer players to get to that level.

I saw people logging in, asking "Does this game has pvp??" when the answer is semi-negative they never log again. People leaving cause "there's no wipe" kinda falls into the same category, it's just not really to their taste otherwise they'd give it a shot.

And competitive in P:G? Rush towards...what? Compete with who? As someone put it, in a purely PVE game it's the journey not the destination.

PS -I didn't even bring up the "You played for a week or two and want my 3 years work erased" argument. Not even going there.

[rastaah]

Well, my vote is no wipe. And I have already purchased anything I will ever purchase on this game so this is not from someone who is not really into the game, I really am committed for the long term.

I just think we have a great game here, a great community, why ruin it. Let them be. A new server would scatter the community which is why I have always been against Server changes (ie paid server transfers) because in WOW that ruined our Kel'thuzad community big time as did character name changes. WOW was never the same after. (in my humble opinion)

Just something to think about. We are many of us, here for community and the long haul ......and if that is the case why does it matter?

I am trying to understand so if I am missing a reason it matters let me know. I am new, so I understand the whole 'coming into an established community' thing but that is any community :)

You always have to break through.

[Tsugumori]

Objectively, there are reasonable arguments for both viewpoints. If I may however give some perspective...

If the situation arises where a full wipe is perhaps necessary to make the game more appealing, accessible or new player friendly, I'm all for it. I'd rather have a wiped PG than no PG. That said a partial wipe is preferential, obviously, if the wipe is unavoidable.

Just in regards to some points some of you brought up, (not bothered quoting):

TLDR: I don't care about the wipe personally, nor do I care that you care.

- The 'alternate server' idea was addressed by Silvonis I believe? At face value - dumb idea. I remember when it was first brought up, a legacy server that only alpha players could use, along those lines. Lets focus on launch, then the niche - and I really mean -niche-, can have their little snowglobe 'legacy' server.

- I only think players who have been playing for a number of years can really comment on the wipe. If you've been playing a few months and decide to weigh in you just come off as entitled or desperate. I think I am in the minority when it comes to this topic as a whole i.e. I honestly don't care either way. Wipe, no wipe, I'll be on PG whatever happens. In terms of play time I'm in limbo, I'm not a new player but I'm not one of the longtime players - even if I was the latter or former I doubt my opinion would be different. I plough on and do my thing, levelling in this and that and helping out new players.

- There seems to be the notion of competition in the air? Silly thought really, anyone who I've gotten to know in the PG community only ever competes with themselves. "I have to level x skill today" "I want to get to level xx over the weekend". I find spurring yourself on to complete or accomplish things is fine, but thinking you have to out-do others? Maybe instead of playing PG go to an arcade and find something actually competitive, try beat [billyboy69xd]'s time on Road Race: Nobody Cares Edition.

- Not to bash the OP or anything, (I don't know you mate but you seem like a swell guy/gal), but I find the whole thing of a new player commenting on a post from last year about a topic they shouldn't really be addressing kind of... Well, I find it sigh inducing. I get that forums are for bant, chats, speculation and discussion but I mean come on. I get some people go on about "time investment" or "worth of play" but seriously..

New players worrying about being behind? They're new, they'll get over it. A lot of things tend to be first come first served but there isn't special treatment for longtime PG players. They're known and listened to but that comes with commitment to the game. Since PG is community based if anyone sticks around and gets involved you become known quickly. I'm from Ireland and there are a lot of small towns with small communities, everyone knows everyone and such is PG. While everyone doesn't know everyone here, the same names tend to pop up, and THAT is what PG is. Comrades, friends, familiarity. Put aside the thoughts of "unfair" and "advantage", new players may be behind in skill levels or knowledge, but with the way you go on about it no longtime players or higher levelled players will want to help, and that is the lifeblood of PG. Communicating, helping and talking.

It is for this reason that I believe a wipe doesn't matter, some people try and sound deep with the tired line "its the journey not the destination" yada yada whatever. Personally I think its who you do it with, and I hope the friends I play PG with stick around because they are among the reasons of why I play.

[Celler]

I just don't really see how game is that competitive that it requires a lvl restart.

To me even removing items and gold etc has somewhat destroyed my interest in playing currently.Though I'd imagine there are those with millions in gold and tons of alts full to brimming with rare crap.
I'd prefer a gold cap and a few sets of gear to carry over but who knows what will happen.

That said I've always played gorgon as a great game that keeps improving and adding more rather than the testing to find flaws as I'm supposed to, I feel many do this, though there are a few I know that take testing very seriously.

When guilds were new I was in a guild with 30 or more others I had 2 years worth of play they had maybe 1 or 2 months. For a few weeks I showed them a few things helped them out, within a month most had maxed at least 2 skillsets and some had higher lvls than me in some of the games tougher crafting skills. Sure they lacked my characters depth didn't have the storage or favor I've built up, but I'm a lazy leisurely player, they could run rings round me when they wanted to by specialization or just the fact some were damn good gamers.

In all my time playing I've never really seen much competitive play, though I imagine with current loot system there maybe a little more group/guild competition at times now.

Also feel the games model needs to be taken into account even now that numbers are growing again the issues with 1 big open world and no instances shows.If steam release brings 50 new players to starter isle within first few hours it will be a mess. If you add a player base of 1000 or so players that currently play to that it will be interesting.
I feel it only supports a hundred players because there all doing different things you put everybody competing at start it will not thin out until people are in Kur at least.Of course this is just my speculation.

I've always felt with this game the only person your competing against is yourself. There are always those with more time, money, friends or intelligence. If I've tried and enjoyed myself I can honestly say I don't really care what others do, I do hope they have fun and treat others reasonably though.

Imagine if there was a complete wipe I'd still play, the change to belts and change to double skill gear were both game spoilers for me as is current loot/group system, but I'm still here now and then at least.

[Khaylara]

"It is for this reason that I believe a wipe doesn't matter, some people try and sound deep with the tired line "its the journey not the destination" yada yada whatever"

...That was Niph and me agreeing with Niph. Which translates to "I don't care for being level 70 within a week, if I take longer is because I had fun doing so" (Khay translation).

Also this
"They're known and listened to but that comes with commitment to the game." (quote Tsugufoofoo) is not really accurate. I have been playing without many breaks since 2014 and I can tell you that the devs don't listen to older players in particular. If anything, Citan actually told me that I dislike parts of the game cause I'm bored. Side note-no, I'm defs not bored, you made an awesome game...but after 3 years I have the same beef with inventory and storage I had 3 years ago and he still doesn't believe I hate it cause I hate it not cause I'm bored xD

I'm not saying older players are being dissed but any developer would actually be more interested in fresh opinions in order to see what the first impression is. From this perspective, if someone makes claims that "People are quitting in droves cause there's confusion about wipes" without stating clear facts and numbers, it's actually very detrimental. Let's not go down that road again... "You have to change X feature cause look! People are leaving if you don't". It's false feedback unless it's backed by actual research on the topic. Just because 1-2 very vocal people want a wipe that doesn't mean it's a server scale problem mmmkay?


To actually answer the question someone asked, yes, I would play even with a full wipe but I'm not sure I'd have the mental resources not to fall asleep while re-leveling some skills (cause...the journey you know...it's one thing to level in new places, with friends, and another to solo re-grind tailoring). I would not find it enjoyable at all and I don't get how my boredom would make things better for new players. If you start a game 2 weeks or a month after its launch you would be behind the other new players anyway. So full wipe for what? Just so everyone can hold hands and sing kumbaya on day one of the steam release on anagoge lol, after that the uneven field will be quickly reinstated. Within a week or two some of us would be level 100 while real newbies would still run goblin dungeon. Not saying this in an offensive way but it's the truth, the wipe partisans think a full chars wipe would level the playing field. It would not.

[cratoh]

It's not one or two very vocal people who want a wipe. It's multiple new people who bring it up in game, and occasionally on forums, an very few very vocal people who come and shout at them every time, naming no names, it quite obvious who. They get ridiculed for asking, or called trolls or just shouted at and pointed to ambiguous posts about it.

The OP answered a lot of the quite silly claims made by people who don't want one, in a very reasonable manner and yet still here we go the same.

If I didn't hear about P:G till launch I would do a little research, realise people had a game breaking advantage and just not bother. Or, I might try it for a bit, but I really hate the idea of joining a game where the whole economy is driven by a few old vets.

People say that there is no competitive edge to this game, well there is. There is totally a competitive edge. And it's cash. Going into the new release with skills intact gives people a massive advantage as they have millions upon millions invested in their characters in terms of storage, training, favour. Also guilds. They should be wiped as well or there will just be a few extremely attractive 'pre-made' guilds that people will want to join for all the perks.

Make no mistake, there will loads more stuff by launch, and all of it will be effected by a partial wipe, or only cash wipe.

I think that the vets posting in this thread about how a wipe is not important are being utterly disingenuous by listing all the reasons for not wanting a wipe, when the bottom line is that I think you are putting yourselves above the health of the game at launch. We've had our playground - that's what Alphas, and testing phases are. Playgrounds, but you want it to continue after launch, I've seen so many disparaging remarks about Steam launch and 'being swamped' etc etc, but Eric needs those people, we need them - to keep the cash flowing in, and to build a great community.

No wipe will equate to a ruling class of elite testers with a complete financial stranglehold over the rest of the server, dictating prices and values, getting any prestige items such possibly prime real estate when that is added, or BiS items in auction, or buying up items needed for new skills, or maintaining vendor stalls at a loss or whatever. One can argue that this isn't what will happen, but it really is, wait and see if no wipe.

A wipe will not completely prevent this - but it will help to make a launch more balanced. I've said it before and I'll say it again - the perk of Alpha - the payment for testing IS the testing - not what comes after.

EDITED to remove a couple of names from my post and instead just make it generic to people posting in this thread

[Andelas]

I have a vested interest in no complete wipe as I have been here for a while and have a large number of currently maxed out skills, in addition I am a guild-master of one of the largest guilds. I have also backed the game.

If there were a complete wipe I'd be quite annoyed especially since it has been stated by the developers that this will not happen. However, we have strong guild and we know the content and mechanics we are also on excellent terms with the other established guilds and their players. In the event of a complete wipe many of the vets would leave as there are parts of the game they would not wish to repeat. The remaining vets would probably form into one or two guilds and race through a lot of the early content.

Project Gorgon is a PvE MMORPG it doesn't have published statistics about world firsts or monsters killed. It is not a competition nor do I wish to make it into one. On launch if the game is successful there will be a need for multiple servers/realms. Some servers could be for new characters only, thus your call for a complete wipe is made redundant.

[Khaylara]

Every couple of weeks we pick up this tired old argument.

@OP and no offense intended - If you played for few weeks and purchased the game you probably like it. What if you played for 4 years and also bought the game? How would you feel if at the proper launch someone would ask you to drop all your characters worked through alpha and beta testing, rerolled, nerfed, remade, thousands of hours of playing, hundreds of bug reports etc? Cause if you don't you are selfish and unfair to the newer players.
I don't think anyone carefully read Mortitia's reply (total nub who's been around for many years) ...well he said that "alpha testing" is a convention used by the dev because they don't want to deal with the pressure from the players. During alpha the game is free to play so Citan can have the creative freedom with his game and not be pressured by the "paying customer base" aka us to deliver.
Small side note, this game got into this stage thanks to us too, ofc it's mainly Citan but I'd like to think we contributed and helped him. That's his idea of rewarding us for our help. The fact that we enjoyed playing for years is a bonus ofc but when opening this kind of thread try a quick search on the old forums to see where he stands on this topic.
@Finabarr
"I think that you guys, Khay, Hood, Celler, Tsugu etc are being utterly disingenuous by listing all the reasons for not wanting a wipe, when the bottom line is that I think you are putting yourselves above the health of the game at launch. We've had our playground - that's what Alphas, and testing phases are. Playgrounds, but you want it to continue after launch, I've seen so many disparaging remarks about Steam launch and 'being swamped' etc etc, but Eric needs those people, we need them - to keep the cash flowing in, and to build a great community.

No wipe will equate to a ruling class of elite testers with a complete financial stranglehold over the rest of the server, dictating prices and values, getting any prestige items such possibly prime real estate when that is added, or BiS items in auction, or buying up items needed for new skills, or maintaining vendor stalls at a loss or whatever. One can argue that this isn't what will happen, but it really is, wait and see if no wipe. "

Leaving aside the personal jabs (uncalled for but meh) the players you just listed will not be in favor of your argument. Why? Cause you probably picked the most laid back, casual, "idc to be the best, idc about game money" people you can pick lol. Also quite helpful if i can say so myself. To say that we are selfish and don't care about the game's future is laughable. I hate to remind you but I did help you with any question you had when you started, patiently inspite of your heated tone back then, and did that for many, many people (probably cause I don't care about having new players) . To say that we will be controlling the market and driving the prices is also laughable. All I can think of is...projecting. I can't speak for Celler but I guarantee that none of the others you mentioned has any interest in becoming the PG market king (or queen). There's no competition among us, there's no edge, there's nothing of the sort. You are the proof that contradicts all your argument. You started a year and a half after me and I'm absolutely sure you have more skills maxed, more cash and more items. Where's my massive advantage then? I maxed those skills way before you and still you playing with long breaks and caught up and outleveled me (which doesn't affect me or anyone else btw so I don't see where the competition is, maybe just bragging rights). So...logic and less "feels". Can we drop the animosity now?

My opinion on the whole Steam shtick. We won't have many genuinely new players when the game goes on Steam. Most Steam crowd will look at the graphics, will see it's PvE and won't buy it. Maybe few nostalgics will. The Steam playerbase will be the same 800-1000 people who bought early access already or will buy it off Steam. More clearly put - us, people who already tried it, backed it and are either still playing it or on a break till the early access.
Since I see the same few people advocating for wipe, a poll would be interesting to see how many actually want a wipe and how many don't or don't care. Regardless, the decision to keep or wipe the characters is Citan's and his alone no matter how many pages we write.

PS Idc at all about having a "legacy server". It would not be financially viable to maintain a separate server just for old players and iirc the devs didn't like the idea either.

[cratoh]

We have it every few weeks because people come, realise no wipe and either stay, or leave.

It wasn't a dig, I am just saying that I feel like people are being, as I said, disingenuous - whether they realise it or not.

Stop making it personal, it's not.

People are totally missing the point of how not having to spend millions of gold at launch is going to skew things.

[Easylivin]

When I see threads like this I can only think that someone is envious of another player or group of players. That envy keeps them awake at night thinking of the most bizarre reasoning for rationalizing a full player wipe.

What if I told you that if there was a full player wipe the folks that played for the last 2-3 years would leave? And the damage, bad press, done by suggesting there wouldn't be a wipe then saying "meh f-it this guy cratoah on the internet said a wipe is a good idea so lets do it" would stop others from joining the game? I can make stories up too.

Khay, Hood, Celler, and Tsugu have been around for a long time. They have been through the good and bad. They want this game to succeed and for you to suggest they don't is absurd. You might think the only way to success if through a wipe, others disagree including the dev. Please stop trying to make it happen, it wont and if it does it wont be because you made a thread about it.

[cratoh]

When I see threads like this I can only think that someone is envious of another player or group of players. That envy keeps them awake at night thinking of the most bizarre reasoning for rationalizing a full player wipe.

What if I told you that if there was a full player wipe the folks that played for the last 2-3 years would leave? And the damage, bad press, done by suggesting there wouldn't be a wipe then saying "meh f-it this guy cratoah on the internet said a wipe is a good idea so lets do it" would stop others from joining the game? I can make stories up too.

Khay, Hood, Celler, and Tsugu have been around for a long time. They have been through the good and bad. They want this game to succeed and for you to suggest they don't is absurd. You might think the only way to success if through a wipe, others disagree including the dev. Please stop trying to make it happen, it wont and if it does it wont be because you made a thread about it.

I'm Finbarr ingame, and again, you're making it personal. I'm not talking about bad press or anything else, have a read, stay relaxed and see what you think.

[cratoh]

And the whole bloody point of alpha testing, and forums is to discuss stuff. And the reason people keep bringin this up, is because its something that alot of people find unfathomable.

And, believe it or not, I couldn't give a flying - about what any other player has or hasn't got, or what progress they have made. I'm not even the OP, or shouting about a wipe - if you read the thread you will see I made an alternative suggestion.

[Easylivin]

We have it every few weeks because people come, realise no wipe and either stay, or leave.

It wasn't a dig, I am just saying that I feel like people are being, as I said, disingenuous - whether they realise it or not.

Stop making it personal, it's not.

People are totally missing the point of how not having to spend millions of gold at launch is going to skew things.

You can't say that. How do you know what will be available at launch?

What if alpha/beta testing stops at lvl 70? 80-125 could cost millions or billions and 1-70 is NOTHING compared to 80-125.

We already saw a huge increase from 60 to 70. You also dont know what is planned for 80+ abilities. What if 50% of the abilities had to be looted? Or what if they required multiple hangouts? Or some new tech that hasn't been introduced yet?

[Delceri]

Not sure where this is coming from, as they have stated quite clearly what will and will not be wiped.

Player Economy will be wiped. That means that all player gold and items.


They have also stated they *MAY* reduce/wipe economy skills like leather working, blacksmithing, tailoring, ect, simply because those skills can heavily effect player economy.

The only thing they haven't commented on is NPC favor which can be gotten fairly easily, if a bit of a grind.

". . .they have stated quite clearly what will and will not be wiped . . . *MAY* reduce/wipe economy skills . . . haven't commented on is NPC favor . . ."
Just pointing out what you wrote.


Well, my vote is no wipe. And I have already purchased anything I will ever purchase on this game so this is not from someone who is not really into the game, I really am committed for the long term.

I just think we have a great game here, a great community, why ruin it. Let them be. A new server would scatter the community which is why I have always been against Server changes (ie paid server transfers) because in WOW that ruined our Kel'thuzad community big time as did character name changes. WOW was never the same after. (in my humble opinion)

Just something to think about. We are many of us, here for community and the long haul ......and if that is the case why does it matter?

I am trying to understand so if I am missing a reason it matters let me know. I am new, so I understand the whole 'coming into an established community' thing but that is any community :)

You always have to break through.
It matters, in my first response you can find some of the reasons. Honestly, starting to become apathetic about it because some people in this thread(not you) are just ridiculous and spewing the same stuff. There are few other perspectives here other than "I've played for 1-3 years... there's a community." The devs shouldn't be making a decision about a wipe(or not to wipe) so early when diverse perspectives are scarce. You seem nice, hope that didn't come off wrong.


Objectively, there are reasonable arguments for both viewpoints. If I may however give some perspective...

If the situation arises where a full wipe is perhaps necessary to make the game more appealing, accessible or new player friendly, I'm all for it. I'd rather have a wiped PG than no PG. That said a partial wipe is preferential, obviously, if the wipe is unavoidable.

Just in regards to some points some of you brought up, (not bothered quoting):

TLDR: I don't care about the wipe personally, nor do I care that you care.

- I only think players who have been playing for a number of years can really comment on the wipe. If you've been playing a few months and decide to weigh in you just come off as entitled or desperate. I think I am in the minority when it comes to this topic as a whole i.e. I honestly don't care either way. Wipe, no wipe, I'll be on PG whatever happens. In terms of play time I'm in limbo, I'm not a new player but I'm not one of the longtime players - even if I was the latter or former I doubt my opinion would be different. I plough on and do my thing, levelling in this and that and helping out new players.

- There seems to be the notion of competition in the air? Silly thought really, anyone who I've gotten to know in the PG community only ever competes with themselves. "I have to level x skill today" "I want to get to level xx over the weekend". I find spurring yourself on to complete or accomplish things is fine, but thinking you have to out-do others? Maybe instead of playing PG go to an arcade and find something actually competitive, try beat [billyboy69xd]'s time on Road Race: Nobody Cares Edition.

- Not to bash the OP or anything, (I don't know you mate but you seem like a swell guy/gal), but I find the whole thing of a new player commenting on a post from last year about a topic they shouldn't really be addressing kind of... Well, I find it sigh inducing. I get that forums are for bant, chats, speculation and discussion but I mean come on. I get some people go on about "time investment" or "worth of play" but seriously..

New players worrying about being behind? They're new, they'll get over it. A lot of things tend to be first come first served but there isn't special treatment for longtime PG players. They're known and listened to but that comes with commitment to the game. Since PG is community based if anyone sticks around and gets involved you become known quickly. I'm from Ireland and there are a lot of small towns with small communities, everyone knows everyone and such is PG. While everyone doesn't know everyone here, the same names tend to pop up, and THAT is what PG is. Comrades, friends, familiarity. Put aside the thoughts of "unfair" and "advantage", new players may be behind in skill levels or knowledge, but with the way you go on about it no longtime players or higher levelled players will want to help, and that is the lifeblood of PG. Communicating, helping and talking.

It is for this reason that I believe a wipe doesn't matter, some people try and sound deep with the tired line "its the journey not the destination" yada yada whatever. Personally I think its who you do it with, and I hope the friends I play PG with stick around because they are among the reasons of why I play.

1] "TLDR: I don't care about the wipe personally, nor do I care that you care"
(continues to write an essay despite not caring)

2] " The 'alternate server' idea was addressed by Silvonis I believe? At face value - dumb idea. I remember when it was first brought up, a legacy server that only alpha players could use, along those lines. Lets focus on launch, then the niche - and I really mean -niche-, can have their little snowglobe 'legacy' server."

Thanks for pointing that out, I thought they meant 2 servers where one retained characters(but new players could join).
3] " I only think players who have been playing for a number of years can really comment on the wipe. If you've been playing a few months and decide to weigh in you just come off as entitled or desperate."
It's not a sense of entitlement. It's an opinion. I already stated that I will be playing this game regardless and have already made a purchase. I've asked a question that was, "Isn't this extremely unfair to new comers?".

4] Not to bash the OP or anything, (I don't know you mate but you seem like a swell guy/gal), but
BUT.....ima bash you anyway. Then you proceed to make no point (thus just bashing)

5] "New players worrying about being behind? They're new, they'll get over it. A lot of things tend to be first come first served but there isn't special treatment for longtime PG players. They're known and listened to but that comes with commitment to the game. Since PG is community based if anyone sticks around and gets involved you become known quickly. I'm from Ireland and there are a lot of small towns with small communities, everyone knows everyone and such is PG. While everyone doesn't know everyone here, the same names tend to pop up, and THAT is what PG is. Comrades, friends, familiarity. Put aside the thoughts of "unfair" and "advantage", new players may be behind in skill levels or knowledge, but with the way you go on about it no longtime players or higher levelled players will want to help, and that is the lifeblood of PG. Communicating, helping and talking."
This was the only thing you should have said. However, you are wrong in several places. New players who stay will get over it, not all people. There is special treatment for longtime PG players, and that is evident because of that is exactly what we are discussing. Some special treatment is warranted, and that point has already been made. You're comparing PG to a small community and small towns, that is extremely accurate. I don't think the developers want their game on release to still be a small town game with population 150. I am sure they appreciate it now and would even like to capture and keep that feeling. If you had read my first response, you'd know that I explicitly stated that I don't want the help of higher level players at launch time. Their knowledge, yes, their character support as an OP character, absolutely not. Communicating, helping and talking can still exist with a character wipe.

This will likely be the last time I reply to you if you decide to post again.



I feel it only supports a hundred players because there all doing different things you put everybody competing at start it will not thin out until people are in Kur at least.Of course this is just my speculation.
Everything else excluded(it's been said already or answered), interesting point is the noobie island. You are right that it probably can't support a bunch of new players, because the island tempts you to complete the few puzzles it has. If a server wipe did happen, the developers should take note of this and fix it.

@ Everyone who posted "This game is not a competition", that is a subjective truth. Please bother to read some of the replies, or if you are doing that, consider those other perspectives before trying to make what you are saying is fact. I get it, some people don't think it's a competition. I disagree and your point has been noted.


I'm not convinced Khaylara actually read my response to other people before posting. If you are going to write books for responses then you should at least read my own post that was lengthier(I even broke it up into a very easy way to read). For example,
"I don't think anyone carefully read Mortitia's reply (total nub who's been around for many years) ...well he said that "alpha testing" is a convention used by the dev because they don't want to deal with the pressure from the players. During alpha the game is free to play so Citan can have the creative freedom with his game and not be pressured by the "paying customer base" aka us to deliver."
Even though I clearly responded to the exact point in my first post.

And when you wrote comments such as:
"Within a week or two some of us would be level 100 while real newbies would still run goblin dungeon. Not saying this in an offensive way but it's the truth, the wipe partisans think a full chars wipe would level the playing field. It would not."

I'm going to just stop here. I guess I didn't know what I was getting myself into asking asking why a wipe isn't going to happen in a game that is in alpha.

Kill the thread. I didn't think it through enough. I expected a discussion but it's mostly veterans with the same arguments. I asked for a wipe, it's mostly selfish, I also made the post for people who have similar viewpoints to me(potentially future players too). At least some of you vets could admit *not* wiping is selfish.

I won't be checking this thread again.

[Khaylara]

"Because people don't agree with me I'm not going to bother to read anything they say".

Bluntly put you found a game you like but you don't want the people who helped make it good to at least keep their characters if nothing else. So the staff should cater to you and "potentially future players" (who might or might not buy the game or stick around for longer than a month) ignoring the ones they already have. Also, it's a forum, potential new players can create their own threads or could have contributed to your thread to support this idea but it didn't happen.Yes I read your responses carefully and all I can see is "this is like this and that is like that". Your original post expresses your opinion as being the absolute truth and not an opinion. You are asking the rest of us to validate that opinion and that's not happening either.

Since you made fun of my lengthy posts calculate how much of my time went into 3 years of forum feedback and rethink slamming the "bunch of vets".

Agreed this kind of thread needs to stop popping, use the search tool before reviving an issue that's been discussed to exhaustion.

Something I would like though just for curiosity's sake is to actually be given an example of player/players who quit before they found out there's not going to be a character wipe. I don't know of any. Finbarr kicked a fuss about it when he was new but he hasn't left or quit. I don't know anyone who quit for this particular reason (and I know a lot of people in this game)
Character names, numbers, anything concrete besides vague statements?

PS Because I read carefully I couldn't help but notice the only players who are pro-wipe are OP and Finbarr, surprisingly even new players like it the way it is.

[drivendawn]

I will be wiping my own character at launch because I want to start fresh. That being said I think it's fine to keep the battle skill lvls for those who want to. Mainly because unlike other games this one kept its servers open all the time during testing. Most of the time in alphas/betas they invite selected players to come in and test the game at specific times and with specific builds for the game here and there through out a couple of years. I think Eric and company are making the right choice considering how they decided to run their alpha/beta.

[alleryn]

PS Because I read carefully I couldn't help but notice the only players who are pro-wipe are OP and Finbarr, surprisingly even new players like it the way it is.

Given the tone this thread has taken, this should hardly be surprising. Anyone who comes out as pro-wipe is pretty much asking for it. It's not exactly an anonymous poll. I'd say it's more akin to walking around Salem asking who is pro- or anti- witch.

[Khaylara]

I will be wiping my own character at launch because I want to start fresh. That being said I think it's fine to keep the battle skill lvls for those who want to. Mainly because unlike other games this one kept its servers open all the time during testing. Most of the time in alphas/betas they invite selected players to come in and test the game at specific times and with specific builds for the game here and there through out a couple of years. I think Eric and company are making the right choice considering how they decided to run their alpha/beta.

Your character (all our characters) might be completely stripped with only their names left, who knows. I'm happy if I get to keep my chars's names, I'm kinda attached to them. I started a char fresh w/o using resources from my main char and it was fun and I didn't have to delete my main character for that. I just have 2 mains now.

[drivendawn]

Your character (all our characters) might be completely stripped with only their names left, who knows. I'm happy if I get to keep my chars's names, I'm kinda attached to them. I started a char fresh w/o using resources from my main char and it was fun and I didn't have to delete my main character for that. I just have 2 mains now.

True, I only have one character though. It was the same for me in AC and FFXI all with the same name lol. Drivendawn since summer of 2000 :D

[Extractum11]

Somewhat organized thoughts:

Legacy server - Tbh this strikes me as something that is CLEARLY terrible. A server where people can't join is obviously going to die eventually - most players will realize this and leave, making it die faster. Doing this is just a backhanded way of trying to appease anti-wipe vets, and you have to spend extra money on it. A legacy server is possibly the worst way to address the wipe issue.

Competition - I hear this. All games can inherently be made competitive, pvp mmos, pve mmos, even single player games. Many players (me included) take a sense of pride in being X level in combat or crafting or having excellent gear. I strongly remember a certain someone saying that your opinions were worthless unless you had 4k skill points. But still, we're in the minority...PG just doesn't draw that kind of crowd. Altogether not a very convincing reason to wipe.

Launch - I think the main divide here is that pro-wipe players see the launch as a clear, definitive point in time, where we can say "pre-launch PG and post-launch PG are two totally different things." I'd say that this is sort of an outdated view. Rag on Steam EA and perma-Betas all you want, but the game industry's changed a lot since the days of clear alpha->beta->release progressions. Mortitia nailed it - the game's already been playable for years and years. Devs have also said that development will continue after launch (pseudo-expansions), so I don't think there's anything particularly special about launch. To me, it just seems like another patch.
QFT:


This is the key point and i think part of the misunderstanding, and maybe a mistake from the devs. I dont feel and i dont think we are in alpha, it's more like a long beta and sometimes i play it like a finished game. The devs say alpha to lower the pressure from players or mmo websites.


Economy - I don't think that players having tons of gold will drastically affect the economy on launch. Even if it does, the same players will very quickly rise to the top and dominate the economy all the same. I can guarantee you that if there was a complete wipe, I'd no-life it and be back at max level in probably a couple weeks. The money would follow soon after. The main "slowdown" as a new player is that you take time to explore the game, explore the skills, complete quests, learn the systems, learn rotations. Old players will skip these sections entirely, and might not even ever revisit them. So 1) I don't see how the economy will be SIGNIFICANTLY hurt by not wiping on launch and 2) it seems likely that we'll soon be the same situation after a wipe anyway.

Related to economy - In this hypothetical wipe, there are plenty of players that will beat me to 100 and be back at millions within a month or two. While they're doing this, they'll be collectively ravaging the mobs/wood/seeds/fruits/dungeons. Not only will organized players shit all over new players during launch, there'll also be tension between groups of vets as they move through the zones. Unless there's a dynamic spawn system that's 100% worked out, it doesn't seem wise to force this situation by wiping.

On powerleveling and skipping content - Personally, I rarely read books or watch shows multiple times, even my favorites. The early flavor text and systems introduction in PG is incredible and incredibly endearing, but I wouldn't really enjoy re-doing it much, if at all. And some parts (grinding) would be flat-out boring.

Selfishness - I agree that both sides of this argument are selfish. Not really any point in bringing this up.



Given the tone this thread has taken, this should hardly be surprising. Anyone who comes out as pro-wipe is pretty much asking for it. It's not exactly an anonymous poll. I'd say it's more akin to walking around Salem asking who is pro- or anti- witch.

Yeah, I actually feel like this happens to a lot of criticism. After the first couple comments the claws come out and people rush to defend PG.



It is brought up each month as a new bunch of people come and play, realise there is not going to be a wipe, and quit.
Citation needed. I read most of the comments on kickstarters/mmo sites/mmorpg subreddit and haven't really seen this sentiment. What I HAVE seen are people saying that they will wait until the game is "actually launched" to start playing, or that they will wait for a finished product. Another relevant quote from Mort:

That said, players who dont know the game will just take the option to wait after "alpha" when they could just hop on now and have fun with us, removing their potential gap at release.

All that said, I wouldn't hate having a wipe. I do feel like it'd be fun to race people to endgame, and I like the 'fresh start' aspect of it. I think it might also increase the game's longevity (since it'd take longer for people to feel like they 'beat' it), even if some players leave over it.

All THAT said, this whole discussion is pretty moot. The devs have said multiple times that they will not wipe, and I would think that for them to go back on it now, there would have to be a really great reason. IMO nothing in this thread has come close to that (sorry).

[Crissa]

It's kinda weird that people asking about a wipe suddenly means there's support for one.

The only posts in favor of a wipe I know of are right here. And clearly not a majority.

[Tchey]

I have a similar mindset to this. I don't think anyone will be starting from zero however, if there is no wipe.

Well, i'm not a regular player, i just play for a few weeks, and stop for a few months, and come back, and again... So i can test some, and see new content and features without being bored too fast. So i'm pretty certain i will drop my spider and my bat 30ish, and my musician... so i can re-enjoy again all the content and progression, making "better" choices (i'd not be druid again for example), having a complete view of what a real noob would have, etc.

When you released the new noob island to replace the previous cave introduction, i restarted again, for example.

I've alpha/beta tested a great amount of games, MMOG or not, and in most of them, i always start from fresh when the developers believe the game is ready to be a "version 1.0".

For Project Gorgon, i'll very certainly do the same.

[Tsugumori]

1] "TLDR: I don't care about the wipe personally, nor do I care that you care"
(continues to write an essay despite not caring)

4] Not to bash the OP or anything, (I don't know you mate but you seem like a swell guy/gal), but
BUT.....ima bash you anyway. Then you proceed to make no point (thus just bashing)

I won't be checking this thread again.

I don't care that you care about a wipe. I don't care if other people care. I'd prefer if more people shared my thoughts of "does it really matter?" Everyone has their own take on it, but I wrote out why I don't care to pitch the view of the third party involved in this asides from the "Full Vs Semi/No" (Wipe).

I didn't bash you and I did make numerous points as to why topic is just spinning wheels (speculation/pointless). If they went over your head that's probably because you were too busy looking at your keyboard preparing your responses.

I wasn't trying to take the moral high ground but in terms of belittling opinions, I basically said "why do you care, you shouldn't care" and I got a "hmmff whatever" in return.

Maybe its just my self righteous, dick-headed nature but I think more people should join me on the fence. I don't plan on getting down and I have beers.

What do you have? Oh, a thread that you abandoned because people disagreed with you. Good luck with that. Cheers!

[Easylivin]

I will be wiping my own character at launch because I want to start fresh. That being said I think it's fine to keep the battle skill lvls for those who want to. Mainly because unlike other games this one kept its servers open all the time during testing. Most of the time in alphas/betas they invite selected players to come in and test the game at specific times and with specific builds for the game here and there through out a couple of years. I think Eric and company are making the right choice considering how they decided to run their alpha/beta.

This is the way to go. No discussion needed, its your character do what you want.

Btw, before you delete your character I would check with someone at PG team to make sure you can still get your name, if you want it.

[drivendawn]

This is the way to go. No discussion needed, its your character do what you want.

Btw, before you delete your character I would check with someone at PG team to make sure you can still get your name, if you want it.

Will do, and thanks for the heads up.

[Khaylara]

It's something that kinda baffles me. When I started playing PG one of the first people I was in contact with was Erdrick (he gave me and another newbie a necro run day one). He was darn OP lol. Then I saw AnimalRights, BetaNotus and Awatu, all high level and very well geared. I knew very early on that the chars won't be wiped at launch but it hasn't crossed my mind AT ALL that I would want these players' characters wiped so I can get an "even playing field". I'm not being "disingenuous" (hate the word btw, just say plain liar lol) but if anything I wanted to have a char like Erdrick who was soloing crypt level 2. Ofc that's by no means OP in today's terms but it motivated me to get better at this game. What good would it do to me if other players, older than me would lose their chars?

So srsly i genuinely don't understand this "I want everything wipe" thing. Mainly because as much as I try to think from a new players's perspective I come to the same conclusion really. Even as a newb I didn't want a wipe, I'd rather have people who can help me with advice than people I have to compete with for popular leveling spots.
It was mentioned already, we'd trample over newbies in all the popular leveling spots...I think that would be a more valid reason to quit: starting a game, trying to kill a mob to level and finding everything dead and the ground littered. If anyone remembers how it was around kickstarter when we got lots of new people, that's how bad it's gonna be x100 in case of a full wipe. It's an open world and competing for resources with hordes of vets set on relevelling will drive new people away for sure.

What Finbarr for example doesn't understand is that - beside the sentimental reasons to keep our chars - a wipe would actually benefit the vets willing to restart. We'd have all the tools to be the best players on the server again (the know how).

PS I can't even say I'm pro or anti wipe, I just took Citan's statement for a fact and moved on. I occasionally try to change his mind about storage or other features but this one I just didn't see the need to debate, it's his decision if he keeps or wipes anything or how much of it or whatever. I personally disagree with a Steam launch, I hate Steam and using their launcher but whatever you know, he thinks that's the best way to market PG, I'll have to put up with Steam and bluescreens if I wanna play it. Just move on and move away from topics like wipe, PvP, Unity etc where he clearly stated his position a bazillion times already.

[Celler]

Ruling class or merchant elite, nice titles but frankly lazy arse or flat broke would better suit me.

I next to never sell stuff if i do its not at the current stupid prices. I played when things were shared between the players and I share what I have now still despite the changing game model. Fin you should know this.

Whole thread has turned catty so not really looking to stir it up more, just wanted to add a couple of small things, firstly that I enjoy meeting new players helping them a little here and there. The idea of a server which has no new life is frankly unappealing to me.

I can somewhat understand that newer players can look at the mountain of work in front of them and instead of playing catch up which is more than possible, they may feel it's easier to bring the others down. The trouble is this game has been a few months from going live for ever, at least it has seemed that way to me at least. Perhaps the steam launch is weeks away, but it wouldn't surprise me if it didn't happen this year at all. No disrespect intended just dev is full of ideas and there always seems to be something else being added.

Make no mistake I do not want to keep my character for the sake of greed or power it is all down to the fact I'm far too lazy to do half the boring crap again.

[tangar]

There are also another two aspects:

1) Bugs. Due alpha/beta there are loads of bugs which some players used to advance their chars. In release version this bugs would be fixed and people who used it in the past got certain advantages in compare to new, 'legit' players.
2) It's hard to 'return' to sandbox game. I felt it when I returned PG after two months break (check my past stream...). You don't remember anything, you got loads of unfinished in the past stuff which you don't remember where to do. So if there is a wipe - it's much easier to start from scratch, than going on with 'old' problems :) (http://mmoforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=353&p=652#p652)

[cratoh]

Sorry Khaylara! The reason I used disingenuous instead of lying is that it feels to me that people come and say 'Hey why no wipe? Vets will be OP' then people come and shout at them, and give every reason in the world for not wiping 'its payment for alpha/won't skew launch/not competitive/won't effect you/I wouldn't want a wipe if I was a new player/it's not really alpha' etc... When actually what it actually sounds more like is 'I've sunk so many hours into playing I better damn well be uber at launch' And as liar and disingenuous have sublty different meanings, that's why I used it.
Celler Hey man, sorry - I like you, didn;t mean to offend you, but I still feel that supporting no wipe is just shortsighted in the process of getting new players.

@People saying 'where's the proof, how do you know people are leaving?' OK - I honestly don't. But I know that people like me, and others research games to play, we're old gamers, we've been playing for years, we also have busy lives, businesses, wives, kids, animals, houses etc and enough of the peopel that read no wipe and don't liek aren't going to bother posting about it.

[cratoh]

There are also another two aspects:

1) Bugs. Due alpha/beta there are loads of bugs which some players used to advance their chars. In release version this bugs would be fixed and people who used it in the past got certain advantages in compare to new, 'legit' players.
2) It's hard to 'return' to sandbox game. I felt it when I returned PG after two months break (check my past stream...). You don't remember anything, you got loads of unfinished in the past stuff which you don't remember where to do. So if there is a wipe - it's much easier to start from scratch, than going on with 'old' problems :) (http://mmoforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=353&p=652#p652)

1. This. It's happened a lot by mistake. Prices have been radically slashed on so many ways of making money that weren't apparent bugs, and so not only do new players have to try and catch up all the skill costs, and whatever else isn't wiped, they have to do it on a slower cash farm.

2. This is such a good point as well. So many people have tried PG, loved it, and left to come back later. They might, but with no wipe, they might not. If there was a wipe or a new server, they would be more inclined.

Lastly - I always get shit when I post on threads on this topic - and tbh, it isn't at all nice. I've contributed a lot to this game, I help people when they need it with crafted items, advice, useful drops, cash, directions or just a chat. I've supported the game financially. I have friends in game and enjoy group and solo content contrary to what some people post about me. I chat with Srand when I get to, I love the game and same as anyone else that plays it, I want it to succeed.

It's a forum, this is alpha, we're asked for our opinions.
None of the stuff about wipe is 100% anyway, it keeps getting opened by new people.
YOU may support no wipe, ME, I support a wipe. Whenever it gets opened I will restate my opinion as I engage whoever posted about it in the thread.

Devs change their minds. They do it based on feedback, and what they think is good for a game.

What is very BAD for a game is people scaring other members of the community into not posting about something they are concerned about. Yes, you can grief people for starting a new topic. Some people don't want to necro post a topic, they want to start one.

Deal with it.

Peace.

FINBARR

[Tagamogi]

It was mentioned already, we'd trample over newbies in all the popular leveling spots...I think that would be a more valid reason to quit: starting a game, trying to kill a mob to level and finding everything dead and the ground littered.

Spreading out the player population seems like one of the best arguments against a complete wipe to me. Of course, I'm biased since I don't like crowds. :) The game could try to work around the overcrowding problem by providing many many newbie zones but then if it succeeds in attracting all those competitive people that like to race to the top, those newbie zones would be virtually empty pretty shortly and a waste of development time in the long run.

If I'm a new player in a game, I personally do feel discouraged if it seems everyone is lightyears ahead of me. My key trigger is "everyone" though - if there is a sufficiently large crowd at the same level as me, I can ignore the level 1000 people. It's also going to be much easier for me to not feel envious of the more experienced players if we aren't forced into the same leveling zones together.

Obviously, people's feelings about this can vary.

[Khaylara]

Sorry Khaylara! The reason I used disingenuous instead of lying is that it feels to me that people come and say 'Hey why no wipe? Vets will be OP' then people come and shout at them, and give every reason in the world for not wiping 'its payment for alpha/won't skew launch/not competitive/won't effect you/I wouldn't want a wipe if I was a new player/it's not really alpha' etc... When actually what it actually sounds more like is 'I've sunk so many hours into playing I better damn well be uber at launch' And as liar and disingenuous have sublty different meanings, that's why I used it.
Celler Hey man, sorry - I like you, didn;t mean to offend you, but I still feel that supporting no wipe is just shortsighted in the process of getting new players.

@People saying 'where's the proof, how do you know people are leaving?' OK - I honestly don't. But I know that people like me, and others research games to play, we're old gamers, we've been playing for years, we also have busy lives, businesses, wives, kids, animals, houses etc and enough of the peopel that read no wipe and don't liek aren't going to bother posting about it.

Since you don't seem to care if you offend me (and you did repeatedly every opportunity you had), I'm gonna be blunt m8. If anyone cares about being "uber at launch" that's you. Don't project whatever you feel on us. I'm not uber now nor do I aspire to be. I'm never going to put up cheap WO to make cash off the newbies you seem to care so much about. I'm never going to run a guild full of my own alts to exploit the guild storage and credits. Stop. Projecting.

Exploits and whatever unfair advantages people think we have-the only "exploit" I've ever done iirc was pick up paintings from goblin dungeons when mobs weren't attacking me. Which I was doing legit anyway when the dungeon broke, reported few times and went back the next day. If that is gamebreaking for anyone else please Citan, downgrade my art history! Or delete the whole thing, I'll be back to 50 within hours. I hope that helps new players join the game. Bugs exist now so technically anyone exploiting them should be not wiped at launch but banned. Plain and simple. Not wipe, ban. And people were banned for exploits already.

The tone of this thread was dictated by OP with his entitled post and by you Fin who keep pushing the same arguments nobody cares about. Bashing anyone who disagrees with you won't get you fans. Two days into the game you were already arguing with older players to the point where you pissed off one of the nicest players I know. When a newbie asks for details about launch ingame I never jump at their throat for it. I explained the stages of development and the plans to numerous newbies, I also directed them to the developer blog. The only one who can't discuss it in a civil way is you.

About how people are busy with their real lives and can't spare the time to make a quick post on a topic they supposedly care about, I call bs on that. Again plain and simple. I can assure you my household doesn't get neglected because I write a forum post.


Now let's drop the topic alltogether shall we?

PS unrelated but I also disagree that there are less ways to make cash now.

[cratoh]

Since you don't seem to care if you offend me (and you did repeatedly every opportunity you had), I'm gonna be blunt m8. If anyone cares about being "uber at launch" that's you. Don't project whatever you feel on us. I'm not uber now nor do I aspire to be. I'm never going to put up cheap WO to make cash off the newbies you seem to care so much about. I'm never going to run a guild full of my own alts to exploit the guild storage and credits. Stop. Projecting.

Exploits and whatever unfair advantages people think we have-the only "exploit" I've ever done iirc was pick up paintings from goblin dungeons when mobs weren't attacking me. Which I was doing legit anyway when the dungeon broke, reported few times and went back the next day. If that is gamebreaking for anyone else please Citan, downgrade my art history! Or delete the whole thing, I'll be back to 50 within hours. I hope that helps new players join the game. Bugs exist now so technically anyone exploiting them should be not wiped at launch but banned. Plain and simple. Not wipe, ban. And people were banned for exploits already.

The tone of this thread was dictated by OP with his entitled post and by you Fin who keep pushing the same arguments nobody cares about. Bashing anyone who disagrees with you won't get you fans. Two days into the game you were already arguing with older players to the point where you pissed off one of the nicest players I know. When a newbie asks for details about launch ingame I never jump at their throat for it. I explained the stages of development and the plans to numerous newbies, I also directed them to the developer blog. The only one who can't discuss it in a civil way is you.

About how people are busy with their real lives and can't spare the time to make a quick post on a topic they supposedly care about, I call bs on that. Again plain and simple. I can assure you my household doesn't get neglected because I write a forum post.


Now let's drop the topic alltogether shall we?

PS unrelated but I also disagree that there are less ways to make cash now.

Really going off now eh. Maybe I should just only post if I agree with you, and not have contrary opinions, and maybe I should just play exactly how you want me to.

I really don't care what you call bullshit on or not, most people cba to post on forums on a game they are trying. I discuss plenty of stuff in perfectly reasonable ways, just because i have a differing opinion does not make it uncivil.

[Khaylara]

Calling us out and spewing "selfish, disingenuous" at few people is not civil m8. Editing your post doesn't change the fact that you were offensive and downright rude. Get used to get a response on the same tone. And stop making up imaginary friends with busy lives to back up your argument.

Can we stop posting now.

[Easylivin]

Devs change their minds. They do it based on feedback, and what they think is good for a game.


So I should make a no wipe thread?

[alleryn]

I can't help but wonder how much of this is a capitalist vs communist thing, with communists thinking that new players would want to see an equal start and capitalists thinking new players want to see elite players to give them hope of upward social mobility. Just a passing thought...

[pilotfisherman]

I am looking forward to subscribing monthly to pay for more content. It has nothing to do with using current character slots. I can appreciate the inexplicable need to change one's mind about this kind of project.

[Eachna]

However I still find this unfair to even newer players, and I also like the idea of competing/building with others from a blank slate with the game fully completed(ish, no launch is perfect).

A lot of games don't wipe their *final wave* of *beta testing*, but alpha? Isn't there a better alternative here? One of the benefits of being a tester is having vast amounts of knowledge over other players for a solid edge anyways.

TLDR; Full Character Wipe should happen at launch or near to launch.

I feel like the no-wipe thing is a bribe, plain and simple.

The dev team is tiny. It's 2 people (or 3 people if you count the forum/web person). They contract out for some stuff. But the core team is tiny and there are human limits to how quickly the game will be built.

Players have already had to stick around for years and there will be more years in the future.

By not wiping at launch they attracted the sort of people who would be okay with being involved in a game that would take a long time to build. *IF* you keep your character skills on launch then the time it takes to get to launch isn't as important as if there's going to be a final wipe.

With a final wipe people want to get to the wipe ASAP so they can get to the point where they get to start keeping everything.

Is it "fair" to new people or highly competitive people? No.

Does it make sense given how long the game will take to build? Absolutely.


There are also another two aspects:

1) Bugs. Due alpha/beta there are loads of bugs which some players used to advance their chars. In release version this bugs would be fixed and people who used it in the past got certain advantages in compare to new, 'legit' players.


It's not just bugs. This is just part of testing.

Before I started playing, players did "stuff" a certain way. Gear mods worked differently. Then there was a big mod change (which was a mini-wipe of sort as it broke all the gear), right when I started playing. I started a little while before the 2016 Halloween event and I ended up with a lot more cash and loot than I "should" have had. I unlocked a bunch of favor and bank slots with it.

People came after me. They didn't have that advantage, but they were still able to get Battle Chemistry easily.

As of a few updates ago, Battle Chemistry is gated by skill and location. But the players who can't get Battle Chemistry easily can still unlock something else easily now that will be gated later on.

There will be *something* that "all" the alpha players got easily that will be made hard.



Make no mistake I do not want to keep my character for the sake of greed or power it is all down to the fact I'm far too lazy to do half the boring crap again.

I agree. I worry a little that we're going to have to re-do some things that haven't been clearly defined one way or another like re-buying favor or recipes. I'd really hate having to unlock all that stuff again.

[Khaylara]

There will be *something* that "all" the alpha players got easily that will be made hard.

Most things actually got easier as the development progressed I find. We get a lot more materials in general these days, more mobs implemented that drop materials, more stuff to gather and the WO really help with buying skills. More zones, larger dungeons, way more gear drops. We have never had dungeons that had so much in the way of drops as Lab and GK (which are relatively newly added). Cotton yields extra harvest, stomachs are really not that rare anymore, we got music buffs and dancing buffs now, fire mats drop a lot better etc. (that's why I'm baffled when people say "stomachs are stupid rare, that's broken" because they drop so much better than before).
Overall I find it's way easier to progress now than a year ago for sure,I started a new character with completely new skillsets and even with the reduced exp rate she had a less harsh upbringing. It's easy to imagine older players had some sort of advantage in the past (because newer players don't have anything to compare with) but judging by the majority of my game friends the only advantage is understanding how the game works better than new players.

[Silvonis]

This thread has been mostly civil, but I want to step in to remind everyone that we encourage the free exchange of ideas, suggestions, etc. If you disagree with someone, feel free to share your thoughts in a constructive manner. Personally attacking or harping on someone for their views is not needed and stiffles a free and open discussion.

[Khaylara]

Is there a need to continue this though? Citan repeatedly posted where he stands and the whole "wipe" thing is based on assumptions anyway. We have no clue what or how much he intends to keep and, with that in mind, starting this conversation over and over is kinda pointless. Imho we should just wait and see, I wouldn't be surprised if at Steam launch we'd be all naked level 1 cows with no other skills teleported on Anagoge. He never clearly said what skills he intends to keep, wipe or change.

[Eachna]

I have been playing without many breaks since 2014 and I can tell you that the devs don't listen to older players in particular. If anything, Citan actually told me that I dislike parts of the game cause I'm bored. Side note-no, I'm defs not bored, you made an awesome game...but after 3 years I have the same beef with inventory and storage I had 3 years ago and he still doesn't believe I hate it cause I hate it not cause I'm bored xD

Really? Did Citan say you're just bored about storage? Or was it just in general? Was this a post? If it was, do you know where it is? I'd love to read it if it's public.

[Khaylara]

Yep it's somewhere on the old forum but I understand the reaction lmao (I kinda think it's funny). He thought I was bored because at the time there wasn't much new content so I was annoying him with my storage issues=)) I do tend to go in pitbull mode when I want something and I can be very very nagging till I get what I want so...yeah lol. I think I must've started a storage thread per month just to stay in shape.
He's very helpful when we have game problems but with storage my guess will be that he has some master plan so we'll have to put up with it for a bit longer. He definitely knows we hate storage:P

edit-sorry for off topic

[Eachna]

Trolls, the least you can do is search the forums for similar posts *before* starting another terrible thread regarding the same tired thing that's brought up each month.


I suppose if they wanted to do that they would have. You might try not telling them how to post.

[Silvonis]

Is there a need to continue this though? Citan repeatedly posted where he stands and the whole "wipe" thing is based on assumptions anyway. We have no clue what or how much he intends to keep and, with that in mind, starting this conversation over and over is kinda pointless. Imho we should just wait and see, I wouldn't be surprised if at Steam launch we'd be all naked level 1 cows with no other skills teleported on Anagoge. He never clearly said what skills he intends to keep, wipe or change.

We allow open discussion, even after we have made an announcement. Since you've brought up storage in this thread, I will use that as an example. You’ve made your opinion known on storage, but you’ve continued to let us know your opinion even after Citan responded to you. We know that you have a strong opinion on this and other topics, but please allow others the freedom to express their opinion without the need for suggesting they shouldn’t.

As for the official stance on character wipes, this is it: "Characters will not be completely wiped at launch. We will be wiping some aspects of your characters, but not everything. In particular, we will be wiping items and money, but we won't be wiping most skill levels. Please note, this is subject to change as we progress through development."

[Khaylara]

Citan never actually responded to the storage thing:) All I know is that he has plans to improve it and in more recent blogs I saw there will be improvements.

"Please note, this is subject to change as we progress through development" - also this. Exactly what I said, the part about keeping characters skills is subject to change (see level 1 cows naked on Anagoge) so starting a thread based on the assumption he intends to keep ALL the skills and complaining it's unfair is only that, an assumption and a whole "unfair" scenario based on a decision that is not final.
In all the threads I made about storage you will never find me saying "X Y and Z players have been playing way longer than me, they have more storage therefor you should wipe all our storage so we can all start fresh". I am critical of the storage system, yup, but for all I know all the storage and favor could be wiped anyway so why care about what others have?
Of course people are free to give their opinion but they should be able to accept other opinions without resorting to personal attacks.
I mean everyone is entitled to their opinion but in the interest of a civil conversation (and for the sake of giving actual feedback) make it about the game and not about other players. When one stops bringing logic to the table and discussing a game feature and instead starts spewing insults towards other players there's when we stop having a civil conversation.


P.S. to understand better what I mean about a change of tone, check pages 3 and 4 of this thread. "This reallllly sucks, that is garbage" are not really valid arguments.:rolleyes:

[Easylivin]

There will be *something* that "all" the alpha players got easily that will be made hard.

Most things actually got easier as the development progressed I find. We get a lot more materials in general these days, more mobs implemented that drop materials, more stuff to gather and the WO really help with buying skills. More zones, larger dungeons, way more gear drops. We have never had dungeons that had so much in the way of drops as Lab and GK (which are relatively newly added). Cotton yields extra harvest, stomachs are really not that rare anymore, we got music buffs and dancing buffs now, fire mats drop a lot better etc. (that's why I'm baffled when people say "stomachs are stupid rare, that's broken" because they drop so much better than before).
Overall I find it's way easier to progress now than a year ago for sure,I started a new character with completely new skillsets and even with the reduced exp rate she had a less harsh upbringing. It's easy to imagine older players had some sort of advantage in the past (because newer players don't have anything to compare with) but judging by the majority of my game friends the only advantage is understanding how the game works better than new players.

bat poop is easy to get now...

[ArkadyRandom]

If they don't do a full character wipe (except names) then I think they should offer a new server. Not doing a full character wipe is probably the only decision they've made that I would say is really bad. They've sort of dug a hole for themselves by essentially promising it in all but the most dire circumstances.

A benefit of existing characters with powers is that it fleshes out the world in a more realistic way for a role playing game. It's a much more organic way for an RPG to be populated with characters of varying power levels. From that perspective I think it's a rather clever approach to that dilemma.

On the other hand this is a very community centered MMO and the importance of community to should take preference to the RPG, not much but it is the defining factor in reference to other RPGs. It's been my experience that not fully wiping is more detrimental than not.

It depends on what type of community you want to create as a foundation really. Do you want to create a community with a stratified social structure, or are you okay with that? It can create strong social bonds, but it can also create an atmosphere where newer comers are always treated that way. In the end I think that hampers inclusive adoption.

The other reason I have is that not wiping, keeping testing progress, goes directly against the spirit of the testing outline. If anyone read the "Testing" thread a common theme in that is not to play the game as if it were released and yet the core of character progression is already in release state. It's not consistent.

But in the end it's their decision and I'll roll with it because it's not that big of a deal. If I were making a game (the DM) then I would be making the rules. I'm not the DM so I'll take the rules as they come and it will be okay.

[chill]

----------

[Easylivin]

I'll just throw out a "middle-ground/compromise" idea that popped in my head to add to the discussion, and of course I have no clue if it's actually technically feasible at all.

1) Do a wipe, but save and backup everybody's skill levels/progress right before the wipe.
2) Launch
3) After X amount of time (a few days, a week, a month, whatever), let everyone jump ahead and return back to their old state skill-wise if they want to.

Result: Everyone starts out fresh and everything is rolled back to create a new server experience for new people, but *eventually* alpha testers get their progress back. Vets can choose to play along with everyone or I imagine some would sit out and just wait.

P.S. I'm against a full wipe. I think people are definitely exaggerating how many people won't play without a fresh server. It reminds of Asheron's Call when the new server Verdantine was introduced ... everyone claimed they would come back to the game only if there was a new server where everyone was equal. They introduced the server. Then a few weeks/months later everyone went back to their old servers and this new server was empty. It's a short term problem but wiping everyone's progress is a major and permanent action.

What if the folks that chose to "reset" got an optional title? Like in Call of Duty where players can reset to level 0, after getting max level, for "prestige"

[chill]

----------

[Khaylara]

"They've sort of dug a hole for themselves by essentially promising it in all but the most dire circumstances."

I'd like to detail this for people who are fairly new. Note that by comparison I'm new next to others.

Imagine an indie game developer who started creating a game. There are no money to develop it fast and do a launch, no money to buy an expensive graphic engine, no money to hire more developers, no money for testing (not sure these days but a while ago testers were paid). All you have is probably some family members and enthusiastic friends who want to test it.

What do you do then. You make it free to play, call it "alpha" and see if people are actually interested in it. This way you get to test your game in all its aspects. See how the servers behave, identify bugs, identify balance issues etc. However if you tell these testers "dude I'm gonna wipe your char few times" they might not play/test consistently. It would be impossible to keep people motivated to play for years knowing that's ONLY to help test the game. You have to understand there are many free to play games (not all bad) and there's competition. So knowing that their characters would be wiped people would only pop once in a blue moon to check out game features added. Then they leave again. Some do that even now.

So how do you motivate players/testers to stick with it for 2,3,4,5 years. I agree it's fun but it's also aggravating in some aspects. Playing a finished game doesn't involve 50 % of a player's time sunk in non-working features, testing bugs or helping others. Honestly, let's say it was a finished game I was playing, it was buy to play and subscription based. I would never put up with so many non-working features in a finished game, I'd complain to customer service and cancel my subscription.

My point is the "your reward for testing was the fun you had" doesn't really stand , realistically speaking. It was not all fun, it takes a lot of time to actually write reports, make suggestions etc. I won't go into that again. Things that you wouldn't bother to do in a finished free to play game. So again, from the developer's perspective, how do you keep people involved and motivated? Offering older players perks after launch would be unfair , what else can you offer them for being loyal and sticking with your game? Exactly what Citan offered (in theory) - the hope that not everything will be wiped so people have an incentive to keep logging every day even when they get frustrated with not-working features, bad UI or crappy graphics.

Not sure it all made sense but short story - I think that's the only way for Citan to create and retain the player base we currently have. At some point the average of people online was 10, you can't have a kickstarter with 10-20 people so how do you market it? Exactly how he did imo.

About this wipe at launch potentially not attracting new people. The kickstarter campaign and indiegogo numbers brought around 1k contributing players (maybe more, I don't have the precise count). As a developer what do you do? Risk alienating these existing customers in the hope that you get new ones? Or go the safe route, try to keep these 1,000 people and risk losing 50-100 people who would maybe buy it off Steam (I have my doubts many would, most people here are either former AC players or nostalgics of the genre so to pay 40 bucks on something untested that has pretty old graphics is hard to believe many would).

Although many might think this is selfish reasoning (cause I want to keep my chars) I'm just using facts and logic. Not from my point of view but thinking of the financial reasons above everything else. I don't think many think of this but the dev has to pay for the servers even, bandwidth etc, how much could he stretch 100 k or less (from ks and indiegogo). How would he even support a legacy server with about 50 people on it. He'd have to put up a 100 monthly sub to even keep the server.

Just my thoughts on the topic anyway. After all it's not about what we want but about what would keep this game going and profitable for the future. To me the answer is - you got 1k paying players already, do what you can to keep them and keep them interested.

[Easylivin]

That's an interesting one. But I don't know if just a title would compel someone to voluntarily roll back hundreds or thousands of hours of progress

CoD had like 9 levels of prestige and some people made it all the way to the end...

[Niph]

You have to understand there are many free to play games (not all bad) and there's competition.

Many of them are PvP. When I looked for a PvE game that was new, P:G was the only one I could find. Granted, I didn't *really* look, but still.

[Khaylara]

Neverwinter is PvE and it seems it's still in top, the graphics were a bit better but it didn't catch me, PoE is another f2p decent game with optional PvP. I joined PG after I saw the old TheHiveLeader's video, it just looked funny but many older players seem to be here due to playing AC or EQ. There are alternatives anyway, many people are actually put off by the fact that there's no PvP (I was anyway and I see that question popping very often, much more often than the wipe question).
It's beside the point anyway, the point was that Citan didn't have many options to keep us playing PG instead of Rift, Archeage, PoE, FF etc . Many would call these games cash shop trash but it's a matter of taste you know, when you have to choose between a finished game and an unfinished one any perk counts and honestly I don't think I'd play daily anymore if I knew there was a wipe at the end of it. I'd most likely still play sometimes but not as active. I don't know if most would do the same, just personal choice here.

edit - Not intending a debate about other games, I only mentioned them as examples.

[Crissa]

Since the vast majority of users come in while others are already ahead...

The whole idea of a wipe aside from technical issues is silly. It only rewards a tiny, tiny subset of experiences: Those who are there to show up when the gate opens.

[Luconis]

Just saying, if there was a complete wipe at the end of alpha/beta I'd probably just wait till release to start playing, heck if i wanted to know whats new in game I'd just launch the launcher, have a read through the patch notes, then close it and not touch it for another few months.

[Tsugumori]

CoD had like 9 levels of prestige and some people made it all the way to the end...

The prestige idea is an interesting one but you can't compare a popular cross platform FPS to PG.

Doing prestige got you an icon that let other players know that you had played til cap level and reset, because you're just that badass. However, prestige lost a lot of value seeing as a substantial number started hacking the prestige icons - made the whole thing about challenging yourself as opposed to bragging rights. I don't think this could really be applied to PG because if every alpha player got the same title it'd just be... Not really worth it. If, hypothetically, lv 70 is as high as levels will go for now, then I think a badge/title should be given for every skill players got to 50, but colour coded maybe. (Bronze, silver, gold badges for said skills ranging from lv 50, 60, 70 respectively.)

If PG was going to have some form of 'prestige' and there'd be benefits for resetting I think there should be more incentive to participate than just a title or icon on the line. This whole scenario is humouring chill's idea of the "timed temp. reset" whereby a wipe would happen and alpha players might have the opportunity of climbing back to where they were. I find this very interesting as its sort of the fourth pitch so far, (1 - Wipe | 2 - Partial/No Wipe | 3 - Whichever), a wipe but with a chance to claim back some or all of the levels. I honestly have no idea if I'm for or against this as I do not know what I would do. If a wipe happened I'd just start over but if it didn't or was partial I'd probably just use my main to fund a fae alt. (Assuming there'll be no race change opportunities..)

So.. In summary:

- I think Easy's CoD Prestige idea is good if it's fleshed out for PG
- I also think Chill's idea has merit as if a wipe is going happen, and badges would be given which were determined by skill levels, this would encourage more people to focus on those.

[Eachna]

So.. In summary:

- I think Easy's CoD Prestige idea is good if it's fleshed out for PG
- I also think Chill's idea has merit as if a wipe is going happen, and badges would be given which were determined by skill levels, this would encourage more people to focus on those.

For a prestige-style system that would better work in a MMO, look up how old MUDs used the "remort" feature.

If you're familiar with DDO, it would be something like Reincarnation (before the stacking bonuses got too crazy).

[mrwarp]

Here's the way I see all this nonsense...

If you were to join a game 6 months after it launched and complain that the playing field wasn't level, the typical response would be "You should have been here at launch then". The same concept applies to this situation just different words. You say "Well the alpha/beta testers have an unfair advantage". The typical response to that would be "You should have been here for the Alpha and Beta tests then".

For most practical purposes, the standard protocol for MOST (not all) games is to full wipe at the end of Alpha, and to fully retain or partially retain character data from the Beta going into launch.

For those of us that are here now and have put work into our toons whether it be one month or 5 years.....please never forget....Citan allowing us to keep even some of our character data from this Alpha is a MASSIVELY huge gift. Always cherish and respect that.

For those of you threatening to "take your ball and go home" if your demands are not met....always make damn sure you are 200% prepared to backup that threat. I know a lot of people like to use that to try and force sway, but 99% of the time it doesn't work and you will most likely find yourself in a "put up or shut up" situation and on top of that force a developer to go even further in the opposite direction. I have witnessed that happen in a couple other games.

Ultimately, I don't care which way it goes. This is Citan's game...his decision is final and I will respect whatever he ultimately decides.

[Gorstak]

Here's the way I see all this nonsense...

If you were to join a game 6 months after it launched and complain that the playing field wasn't level, the typical response would be "You should have been here at launch then". The same concept applies to this situation just different words. You say "Well the alpha/beta testers have an unfair advantage". The typical response to that would be "You should have been here for the Alpha and Beta tests then".

For most practical purposes, the standard protocol for MOST (not all) games is to full wipe at the end of Alpha, and to fully retain or partially retain character data from the Beta going into launch.

For those of us that are here now and have put work into our toons whether it be one month or 5 years.....please never forget....Citan allowing us to keep even some of our character data from this Alpha is a MASSIVELY huge gift. Always cherish and respect that.

For those of you threatening to "take your ball and go home" if your demands are not met....always make damn sure you are 200% prepared to backup that threat. I know a lot of people like to use that to try and force sway, but 99% of the time it doesn't work and you will most likely find yourself in a "put up or shut up" situation and on top of that force a developer to go even further in the opposite direction. I have witnessed that happen in a couple other games.

Ultimately, I don't care which way it goes. This is Citan's game...his decision is final and I will respect whatever he ultimately decides.


I completely agree and i yust cant understand how can those who are asking for full wipe are normal ppl with eny sanes in them,

cas if after 4-5 months of game after launch 100 new ppl come into game and say those who played before them are to op and they wona wipe that should be a valid reason for a wipe?

How can this even be argued with blows my mind.

ps my grammar is bad ik.

[DreamerGoat]

So when the game releases, would we lose our characters and such or are we going to be able to keep them? Because I don't think I can go through all of that again as successfully as I did... lol

[alleryn]

So when the game releases, would we lose our characters and such or are we going to be able to keep them? Because I don't think I can go through all of that again as successfully as I did... lol

You can find a response in the FAQ here: https://forum.projectgorgon.com/faq.php?faq=gameplay#faq_characterwipe

Everything is subject to change but the most likely scenario is:
* money and items will be wiped
* skills and abilities will not
* favor, everything else unknown (afaik)

[Zherot]

Is just the obvious choice, if you don't do it, may aswell just tell new players that there will be a few people that will control the economy from the start, the game is in Alpha and everything you do and how you do it will change in the future, people right now could be and im pretty sure ARE doing stuff that is making them profit and in the future that will be unavailable because of updates or other reasons, the point is that the game will be much different from what it is right now to what is going to be when you finally release it and it is really unfair to launch a game where a few people already dominate the economy of your game and they achieved that by doing stuff that can't be done in the game anymore.

Like i said in my Major feedback thread, the game is really imbalanced in terms of how to make money, right now crafting is completely OP in this sense and this people will have all their crafting skills maxed out from the start, that can't be allowed to happen if you want your game to survive and like is aid in my other thread, crafting needs to be nerfed and there needs to be somehting reliable for people that don't want to craft, after all this is a sandbox and right now there is not much option for people that don't like crafting, while crafters have everything, access to all content with no problems and excelent ways to make money.

Either the game needs a character WIPE or the option to start in a fresh new server, i have been playing and have invested time in a character and i don't mind a WIPE in fact i really want that because i think is the most fair and healthy thing that should happen on launch.

[Greyfyn]

http://i.imgur.com/K8omlm9.png

[Crissa]

Yeah, no one has really described how someone else having abilities or some gear really reduces enjoyment or exploration for themself.

Must everything be a race?

[Khaylara]

Zherot I normally don't tldr but some punctuation would help. If I understood right people who level crafts should not make money out of their crafts because it's unfair. You do realize crafts will exist after launch, right? I admit some players who are pro-wipe have some good points but this is not one of them.

Again if I understood correctly you don't wish to level crafts. I'm sorry to say but you will have to if you intend to play and that will not change with or without a wipe.

[takatoka]

i approve of this reply

[Tagamogi]

Zherot I normally don't tldr but some punctuation would help. If I understood right people who level crafts should not make money out of their crafts because it's unfair. You do realize crafts will exist after launch, right? I admit some players who are pro-wipe have some good points but this is not one of them.

Again if I understood correctly you don't wish to level crafts. I'm sorry to say but you will have to if you intend to play and that will not change with or without a wipe.
Hm, I'd hope that leveling crafts is not required in order to play the game ( and I'm saying that as somebody who enjoys crafting). It certainly makes the game much easier, but if you wanted to focus on combat and buy craftable items from other players, why not? I think the main stumbling block right now is transmutation, which to me isn't really a crafting skill as such...

Anyway, what I think Zeroth was getting at was that wiping gold without wiping crafting skills would mean that players with maxed crafting skills could turn in a few work orders and make money back quickly that way. I'm not convinced that's necessarily the case because of the work order cooldown. It's going to take quite a while to get filthy rich doing work orders alone.

[Khaylara]

From my experience a minimum of crafting skills is required, at least foraging, some gardening and cooking. From what I remember, the work orders were introduced to help us level crafting skills (like leatherworking or tailoring which were an excessive cash sink) and I am not convinced they are a permanent game feature. My honest opinion is that we all will have to start from scratch gathering mats, crafting new gear etc.
Either way, I highly doubt anyone can play this game without a minimum of non-combat skills, if anyone accomplished to reach the current end game w/o ANY craft-type skills and they are satisfied with their char I would be very interested and curious to know how they did it.

[Crissa]

I gotta say, none of my crafting skills are anywhere near my combat ones 'cept Transmutation. Crafting helps, but it's not really required. Especially since the player-shops went in, I have had so many things to eat! I hardly eat my own food anymore.

[Maric]

I don't see a negative in having an established Community in game. Not the type of game Headstart will give any leg up on a new player.

[Moki Mofiki]

The biggest thing to consider is that the PG community is so great because we are a community of people helping each other. There is no reason that one person having millions of councils would hurt the player with a few thousand. In fact the one with all the money from my experience is the one that helps the new one get armor and other items needed (in most cases completely free).

When someone is asked for help beating a boss there are several always willing to show up and help. When someone is out of food in the middle of a dungeon someone always hands some over. Its a fun collaboration, not a tedious competition.

EDIT: This is very different from my actual RL political views but seems to hold very true in PG :)

[Malice00]

I have mixed feelings on this topic. I am vested with my Avatar. Mid 60's in Sword & Shield, working other skills into low 50's.

1. To lose this toon when game is released as final retail product and not major or significant changes would be a shame.

2. This is just a game. Why people feel to need to compete or compare their progress verse someone else seems unproductive to me.

I have no interest playing with people who feel the need to boast, brag or belittle others to fulfill some ego driven internal need for feeling accomplished. I for one spend to much time in cyber space. I would love to fish, hunt, boat more...but I have to admit this is cheap entertainment and is addictive. So when I ask for help, please remember your condescending attitude is still your ego getting in the way of a friendship. Just my two councils!