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Amanda
04-02-2017, 07:43 AM
Hello, everyone!

I've loved Gorgon with all my soul from the very first moment. It does things differently, thinking outside the box, innovating, but at the same time returning to what MMOs are supposed to be.
Inspired by this game and many other factors, I started a project with some friends and friends' friends to further understand MMORPGs. We hope we can shine some light on the problems that stall innovation and growth in the genre as whole. I know many of you have tried a number of MMORPGs, so I humbly ask for your help.

Do you feel like MMORPGs are declining as a genre? Why? What would be the problems, if any?

Feel free to stray away from the question and discuss things such as why is gorgon different, if it is so, or other similar analysis.

THANK YOU!
Amanda.

PezOfDoom
04-02-2017, 09:51 AM
To me it seems like a two-fold problem:

1. People are expecting MMOs to have AAA gaming quality graphics along with an almost real-worldesque build of skill trees and economy. One of the reasons I think that everquest took off was because there were no stringent expectations as there are today. I imagine it's pretty hard to make something as outside-the-box when all your investors say "It must have X, Y, and Z, so we can make our money back!"

This is part of the reason it's nice that crowdfunding has taken off as a way to back some of these projects.

I would also say that a lot of the critiques I read from people about what they want from a new MMO seems to be spoken through the tinted goggles of nostalgia as they remember their first/favorite MMO. Every game will have its strengths and weaknesses, the key is for the developer to acknowledge this and decide which items they want to focus on working and which will just be an accepted weakness (at least in the foreseeable future)

2. A lot of projects want to grab the largest market share that they can. I dare say it's near impossible to make an MMO that will reach everyone. There's too many things that just don't carry well across cultures. What makes an MMO desirable to the main gamer community in Asia is different than Europe, which is different than what it would be in North America or South America.

That's one thing I must commend the Elder Games team on is that they know who their target market is, they seem to understand what interests that group and they are focused on developing content around that. People come in and ask for something outside of that plan, the answer isn't "no", but it is "not at this time" because they are well aware of how limited their resources are and can see the amount of work in front of them just to capture (and sustain interest in) the small market segment for which the current iteration of the game is aiming.

alleryn
04-02-2017, 02:40 PM
I try not to be cynical, but in this case i find it difficult.

I'd say the reason is because consumers are idiots. Cash grabs make easier money (on average) than does hiring a dedicated team of developers who really care about their game. If consumers stopped spending money on pay-to-win games fueled by microtransactions, game producers wouldn't keep turning out all the shlock.

This isn't to say making money is the only thing driving people to produce MMOrpgs, but it's certainly one of the bigger reasons people make games.

Crissa
04-03-2017, 11:15 AM
Well, the thing is that most users are paying up-front. And that's the easier way to separate people from cash is up-front.

So games that are better at hype get better cash, which doesn't always translate to better games.

lilibat
04-15-2017, 01:52 AM
My main problem with MMOs tends to be the, uh, other players. Unfortunately even games like Skyrim don't quite have the same depth that MMOs tend to. Thus I end up soloing in MMOs. I'm not saying all players are bad, it's just 1) I have a lot of social anxiety, 2) even with players I generally like, hell even with IRL friends, grouping tends to make me feel rushed. I don't like feeling rushed. I can usually duo with my husband in games and not feel that way, but sometimes even he gets impatient and I do.

The point being for me to really commit to an MMO it needs solid soloing options and accommodations for players in dinky guilds. We need to be able to get really good equipment without having to join uber guilds to do massive raids or end game really ends up just being the end period. If you get to a point where you have to join a massive guild or there is nothing left to do, I'm going to move on. So will my husband who has even less patience for that nonsense than I do. I have done the massive raiding in original EQ and in WoW and the drama in big guilds is just not worth it to me.

I'm currently playing FFXIV. The likelihood of me even doing a pick up raid is pretty slim BUT I can get really good gear just by being a serious crafter, I am, and doing some PUG instances since FFXIV has quite a good matching system. Most of my friends who play are taking a break till the new expansion but I am logging in to keep working on my crafting even though I am level capped in most crafts and in the class I play. That's the kind of thing I want in an MMO, one where even at level cap I am spoiled for choice on what I can do that day to keep making progress even if it's just making stuff to sell or running instances to get even small upgrades.

Oxlazr
04-15-2017, 03:44 AM
The way I see it - big companies don't want to take big risks, so they copy what's worked in the past and you end up with a lot of games that are very similar to existing games. This trend constantly seems to fall flat with western developers, though, and a lot of these games aren't well received or don't meet long-term expectations after the initial hype.

So instead, we see publishers moving over games from Korea and I expect that'll be the trend for AAA MMOs for the next several years at least - most of these end up being cash grabs, designed to pull players in for brief windows while they spend a bunch of money, and then end up moving on to the next thing (only to play the game again later when new content is released) - often we'll get overwhelmed with new content as the game tries to "catch up" to its equivalent.

So for most companies, it just seems more reasonable to make CoD and get a bunch of money time and time again, rather than risk another MMO based entirely on innovation that may or may not be well-received.

This makes indie MMOs a lot more appealing - unfortunately, most of them need money to push their game over the finish line, and we end up with a lot of crowd-funding campaigns that end in disappointment.

So until a couple indie MMOs hit the mark and prove that the genre isn't dead, big publishers are probably only ever going to localise international games that've already had some level of success.

What that entails for the players is a bunch of early-access games that pray on the desperation of a declining genre (spend $150 to play this game right now sort of deal) while we're still waiting for any sort of innovative game to latch on to - a lot of people find that in Project Gorgon.

Gervase
04-15-2017, 06:11 AM
UI and terrible animations. Notice how I don't say graphics.

Lack of difficulty. Doesn't mean put twenty hours of grinding in.

Meaningful rewards.

Sandbox. (And yes, this is an opinion. I would rather have more choice. i.e. To be able to kill you outside of a town and take your stuff.)

Not focusing the game around one aspect (Mainly PvE - Mainly PvP - Mainly RP. Allow for a combination of all)

All manners of crafting being allowed on one character (Which PG has done very nicely.)

Don't shoe horn players into playing with others. Try to have a range of things to do from one player to forty. (Obviously top tier stuff should require a sum of people, if not highly experienced)

I mean I come from a game called Mortal Online. But I've since quit cause its turned into a sandbox mmo to an arena deathmatch on a huge map. Every thing people do is geared towards PvP, the AI and PvE content is bland and generic, and while its most redeeming quality is combat - it has terrible server issues. There are other external issues such as hackers (and hackers who aren't banned, but are -QUITE- public in the community) and terrible support service / staff. Mortal Online would be my choice MMO if it didn't carry a numerous amount of flaws caused by poor design issues.

I would say right now - if Gloria Victis were to push out their combat animation update, and it was really good - I'd probably say that would be my definition of a nice MMO.. At least for me.

lilibat
04-15-2017, 08:48 PM
Oh and something else kind of hit me while thinking about the GK thread, and this is a huge problem I have with PG actually. The trinity. The lack of tanks and healers, pretty much forcing everyone to DPS, I don't think it really scales well. I pretty much always play a healer in MMOS, my husband plays a tank. I don't really enjoy DPS classes that much, I find it's either frustrating or boring. It also pushes people to minmax even more than having a trinity does. I see people complaining that they aren't much use in GK, and I worry as levels rise here it's going to be hard to balance content without groups saying you need to be this/that or this/otherthing or no you can't join if everything is content just for DPS.

I hated Guild Wars 2 because they basically eliminated the trinity I couldn't find a class I actually liked. I just got BORED. I mostly solo but doing stuff in groups is just more fun for me if I can heal, I feel like I am actually contributing since I get bored doing DPS in groups and am just not motivated.

Crissa
04-15-2017, 11:00 PM
The trinity I think is annoying. I really prefer systems where anyone can do either role. The idea that there's someone's job just to stand there and click on other players is... Silly.

alleryn
04-16-2017, 02:52 AM
Oh and something else kind of hit me while thinking about the GK thread, and this is a huge problem I have with PG actually. The trinity. The lack of tanks and healers, pretty much forcing everyone to DPS, I don't think it really scales well. I pretty much always play a healer in MMOS, my husband plays a tank. I don't really enjoy DPS classes that much, I find it's either frustrating or boring. It also pushes people to minmax even more than having a trinity does. I see people complaining that they aren't much use in GK, and I worry as levels rise here it's going to be hard to balance content without groups saying you need to be this/that or this/otherthing or no you can't join if everything is content just for DPS.

I hated Guild Wars 2 because they basically eliminated the trinity I couldn't find a class I actually liked. I just got BORED. I mostly solo but doing stuff in groups is just more fun for me if I can heal, I feel like I am actually contributing since I get bored doing DPS in groups and am just not motivated.

I think i've read somewhere is that part of the issue is that players are outscaling content. Sure a maxed group of 6 with yellows is going to steamroll any challenge, so why not go the fastest route and just dps everything? But, (the theory goes,) if people are in somewhat lesser gear, it won't be so easy, so a more balanced group depenedent on rage management and other types of builds (not necessarily the trinity -- personally i'm fine with it, but some variety in group composition past that would be even better) will be more desirable. Whether this actually comes to pass remains to be seen, or course.

Eachna
04-25-2017, 06:12 AM
The trinity I think is annoying. I really prefer systems where anyone can do either role. The idea that there's someone's job just to stand there and click on other players is... Silly.

Well...I'm not expecting trinity play here (nor advocating for it) but since this sounds a bit like a comment about healing...

Healing in a trinity group is *awesome*. It's a way to play an entirely different game within the larger game. Not because you don't like the basic game, but for the challenge.

Playing as DPS or a tank, you do your thing based on what the boss and adds are doing. The boss and the adds are stupid because they're scripted.

Players might do "stupid" things (the party isn't ready and someone charges the boss screaming their name as a battle cry ;)). But, people are more intelligent than scripts and they do different and smarter kinds of stupid stuff. Humans are amazing and glorious in the kinds of stupid they can produce.

Healers have their own meta-game that revolves around judging the intelligent human stupidity of the other players.

* Are the other players doing what they "should" do?

* If they are, how can I most efficiently and with the least spent resources, do my part?

* If they aren't, am I capable of fixing what they've done? Should I? Can I be bothered? Am I willing to give up resources that probably won't be replaced to save the knuckleheads from themselves?

* When doing the numbers for MMO fights, the designers boost damaging attacks before healing skills. Healers are usually operating at a healing score deficit and so there's not "enough healing" without careful juggling. It takes a lot of fast thinking to handle cooldowns, mana pools, and consumables to make sure you're outputting the healing you're expected to produce while still being able to respond in the case of multiple human stupids. :D

It's the furthest thing from standing there clicking on other players.

Yertle
04-25-2017, 08:33 AM
I think the MMORPG genre is currently on the decline, but not necessarily due to the Games or Gaming Companies, but more so due to the type of culture we live in now. To keep this short, when the early generation MMORPGs hit the internet was still young and the culture was one of experiencing the big huge worlds and of exploration. The culture now is "smaller" due to the growth of the internet and everything at our fingertips so the vastness and awe of exploration has been replaced by being the first to the top or just utilizing resources (Wiki/websites/forums/etc.) to answer the questions. So that along with a culture more inclined for short, quick, and mobile games clashes with many aspects of the MMORPG genre as a whole.
This is just my opinion/view and from a pretty high level.

Crissa
04-25-2017, 11:11 AM
It's the furthest thing from standing there clicking on other players.Meh, I've done it, and it's not really different than playing ranged DPS. You've got a series of target you have to keep hitting; you have to dodge the ranged effects. To me, trinity is boring because your position and action don't change.

I did melee healing in Molten Core back when Clearcasting was a melee thing. Boy, everyone hated that. Whack the flaming critter with a book, run back, cast the big heal on the tank, run back in... Always make sure Regrowth was running on time. Of course, that was before healmeters counted HoTs to the caster so only the big heal counted. Outlands was fun; I could be tanking, use bash, pop to caster, heal my DPS, then dive back in. That was cool.

And it's quite true the broad size of the internet is actually working against community, making it hard to build up that next MMO or whatnot. But it also means there's a place for experiments like PG. ^-^

Tagamogi
04-25-2017, 01:06 PM
I did melee healing in Molten Core back when Clearcasting was a melee thing.

Oh, hi. :D My introduction to raiding was getting tossed into an all-rogue group in Molten Core and being told to keep them alive while they kept running into the aoe from the fire-breathing dog. Oh, and remember to drop totems for them, too. I still think it was one of the funnest things I've ever done.

Dps feels somewhat boring to me - I think of it as trying to do the largest damage possible without pulling aggro, and once you figure out which of your abilities do the most damage, there isn't that much variation. With healing, you don't just have to heal the most amount possible, you have to decide on the appropriate heal for the occasion - big, fast or "oh noes the tank is going to dieeeeee!!!!!!!!" I also like the egotistical aspects of getting credit for single-handedly saving a group from wiping with a timely heal. I played a chanter in EQ even longer ago, and one of the things I enjoyed most there was also being able to save the whole group, just with a timely mez instead of a heal. Playing dps, you are just one of the crowd banging away on the mob...

But hey, tastes differ.

My problem with the holy trinity system is that it often translates into groups not happening because they need one of the absolutely required classes in order to do anything. What I'd really love to see is a system where non-dps players and dps players contribute equally to the group, without one particularly play style being absolutely required for group success. I've no idea how to implement an ideal like that in practical game design, though.

Anikitos
04-28-2017, 06:46 AM
Well where to start with, lets just start with how mmorpgs worked in the past:

Leveling and questing was most of the time a team content. You would go to the open world, often to some spawns and had to team. This way you got to know people too in the process. Moreover, even it can be tedious if no company, games being grindy meant you had to do that for years to get into endgame. That had lead to players staying in a game longer cause most wanted to at least see the endgame. Later on powerleveling and archer/aoe users appeared and they were forming bonds with classes they needed(like healers or tanks or both). Moreover to do teaming and people wanting to team with them people were learning to at least basically socialise - which was important especially on teaching the young players(teens or younger). Add to this there were less mmorpgs and online games in general so the fanbase apart from being more social it was split to less games. Sure the old models had their flaws but promoted the social aspect with many forms. For example the hardcore PVP games being in a group was essensial so you dont get killed indefinitely and have people to play with.

Then WoW changed all. It taught a new generation of gamers that questing should be solo. That you should wait to level up(fast with minimal grind) and do instances, even some raids all alone or at most with 1-2 friends. Friends? You dont need a friendlist in WoW. There are random instance tools for dungeons, raids, pvp...you name it. Guilds were just a place to get passive buffs. No longer guilds were much needed either. To say it more clearly, many online gamers experienced the first mmo experience in WoW(or the various games that tried to copy WoW) learning that social aspect is completely optional and it usually wastes their time.

That lead in part to most of the modern games today feel barren if their server has 1k players whereas old games felt lively with 100+ all because a successful mmo taught most new gamers(consider how many millions passed through WoW even if they dont play it anymore) to play games like a single player. Eventually those players realise that a mmo as a single player has less quality than a game designed to be a single player so they move on.To me that is the number one reason.

Then mmoirpgs get in decent amount every year giving a feeling to the gamers they should at least try-check all. That gives big population shifts hindering even more the long life and social aspect of mmorpgs since ideally they want their players sticking around more and form bonds. So to say it more clear, more mmos are being released than the playerbase can absorb. From personal experience if working a full time job you can play at most 2 mmos having significant presence in both, not more. So a big general problem is a huge amount of players being in a constant mmo "jumping" from an older to a newer to a newer to a newer staying usually between 4 and 6 months per mmo.

Taking the last line up there, mmo companies sensing that players usually dont stay long, and wanting to sell things on their cashshops(and endgamers usually buy most) they made the transitions from a newbie to endgamers ridiculous fast. So by design on many new games the journey doesnt matter, only the destination does. But this has flaws. The biggest flaw is companies cant create fast enough content to accomodate those that reach endgame in 2 months or less. Every new expansion will give probably 1-2 more months. Till next expansion most players move to other games.That had been also done because from the early years lots(even me myself back when I was a teen) complained on grinding so we got our wish.

Bottom line, excluding sandboxes and old-schoolers, is most mmosrpgs went into a trap of becoming mostly towards single player feel with little social interaction, fast to finish content and thus players that stay little jumping from mmo to mmo till they get bored of not finding something to hook them up

giveit
02-25-2018, 11:56 PM
Well, the thing is that most users are paying up-front. And that's the easier way to separate people from cash is up-front.

So games that are better at hype get better cash, which doesn't always translate to better games.

I have seen lots of good mmorpg just end of bad because they don't get the required cash amount.

Crissa
02-26-2018, 04:05 PM
I have seen lots of good mmorpg just end of bad because they don't get the required cash amount.
That is the normal way companies end?

magzu
02-26-2018, 04:28 PM
(messed up my post)

magzu
02-26-2018, 04:28 PM
Anikitos
You hit the spot perfectly, good read!
I totally feel what you are saying. and i actually hope mmorpgs declines so much that we go back to the era before all the single player mentality. Will kinda make mmorpgs a niche thing again which is good.
Screenshotted your post and stored on my pc, i wanna keep this one :)

INXS
02-26-2018, 05:32 PM
I'm not DPS. I've been going to GK on almost every chance i get sometimes multiple days in a row never saw/heard someone being turned away for the skill they playing. I know Guilds run some inviting fellow members. One thing i learned in the past 13 months playing PG is that you don't need the trinity to do dungeons, why? Because each player is the trinity, most skills give you all 3 some lean more a certain way but not all, you can mod gear and be whatever you want to be. You don't need a healer a tank or a dps to do GK, just needs you to attend and participate.

Crissa
02-26-2018, 05:38 PM
It's a bit anachronistic to say that WoW changed MMOs to include more soloing content. Soloing in MUDs and MMOs pre-existed WoW.

Wow did prove there's a huge market for different amounts of grouping, and that people who play solo games will play MMOs. And that there is a huge market for tools to bring together people who want to play now, as opposed to wait until their friends can play. And the grouping tools in WoW sucked for the first few years; it was nearly impossible to do dungeons without having your own guild or outside group of friends. It wasn't until later that their match-making tools even could field a group.

Honestly, I'd say guilding corrupts games as it creates a false level of requirement to access content. In an open-world game, people in guilds ignore the remainder of players. They have theirs, and have no need to form ad-hoc groups. And until other players can organize a guild themselves, they're lost and left behind. It's very anti-social.

maestroanth
06-13-2018, 10:24 AM
Hello, everyone!

Do you feel like MMORPGs are declining as a genre? Why? What would be the problems, if any?

THANK YOU!
Amanda.

Nah, PG single-handily stopped the declination of the genre ;P