Resurrection Skill Essential to Group Play?

[Lendari]

For an MMO, it's important for group play to be a central theme. By restricting ressurection to people with level 50 first aid or a surplus of guild credits to throw around, you're really working against that right from the start with new players. Many times now I have seen parties split up and then subsequently be left with no choice but to break up just because one person died and there was no way to get them back.

Here's a suggestion for a new ressurrection skill.


The skill leaves both the target and the caster with a serious %age debuff to armor\health\power regen that lasts probably 10-15 minutes.
New players can receive the weakest version of the skill from the boss on Anagouge island.
Improved versions of the skill reduce the debuff duration by using reagents (like diamonds) instead. Higher level version might use large quantities of reagents to return the target back to full combat readiness or even with positive buffs from their near death experience.


This let's low level players continue to work as a team if someone dies accidentally. It also allows the skill to grow in power (for those who invest in the specialty) but in a way that is never an "instant win" button because of the punishing debuff or the high reagent cost.

Make sense?

[drivendawn]

I agree with this, at least make it where the resurrection grass or whatever is more accessible. Mainly when you get to the first group dungeon (Dark Chapel) at lvl 50.

[Tsugumori]

You can get it through the guild board with credits - resurrection grass.

Not to mention the guild res skills.

[Vinnicombe]

It feels horrible being that one guy...I would know, I WAS that guy today! *waves* Hey Lendari, good few runs today, despite my dying xD

[drivendawn]

You can get it through the guild board with credits - resurrection grass.

Not to mention the guild res skills.

Ok I didn't know this as I am not part of a guild and because I only play so often. Good to know and scratch my comment.:D

[Lendari]

Hmm, none of this seems like a real solution that makes the skill accessible prior to the later game.

[rastaah]

Well perhaps have one skill that leads to a player resurrection skill but it is hard to get or level up (but could be done at any level) and that has some costs associated with it.

[Crissa]

Or let us loot while we're dead?

[rastaah]

Yup that too

[Tsugumori]

Hmm, none of this seems like a real solution that makes the skill accessible prior to the later game.

It depends on your definition of "the later game". The first proper -group- dungeon is Dark Chapel (DC) and that's at least 50+ now with a max party of six. Ways to get a res skill...

- Eternal Greens from: [Guild Board with guild credits] OR [a drop from Ciervos (Deer Boss in deep Goblin Dungeon) ]
- Guild credits again to purchase the guild res skills
- Levelling First Aid to lvl 50 to gain access to it's res skill

As far as a solution goes - don't die maybe?

Basic party dynamic is to have the tanky person build up a taunt so that the DPS doesn't get mauled, while PG doesn't require insane strategies or party mechanics there are ways to avoid dying.

We do have res skills but there's no need for them early on. Grind out First Aid if you want it, if I recall you're a member of Holy Order, and I'm fairly certain your guild decimates guild quests, so you should have a lot of credits, (assuming you haven't used them without looking into the options available). So just purchase the first aid skill through the board if you don't feel like grinding FA. [It costs credits to cast so make sure you have some spare :^)) ]


Or let us loot while we're dead?

Iirc this was something people used to be able to do, but if dead people can't cast skills they shouldn't really be able to loot...


Well perhaps have one skill that leads to a player resurrection skill but it is hard to get or level up (but could be done at any level) and that has some costs associated with it.

There's no point having a res skill early on, new players shouldn't just be able to throw themselves at everything and always have a back up like that. Grind First Aid like everyone else or resort to guild quests.

[Hoxard]

I think resurrection is fine how it is, and the real problem is the tuning on the dungeons. The new group size limit is way smaller than the usual group size, and a lot of dungeons were tuned based on the feedback of people running in 10-15 man groups. Obviously this means 6 man runs are going to be a lot more difficult and people will be dying a lot more, which means resurrection is more of a necessity than it perhaps should be.

[Arindor]

I have always disliked low-level resurrection skills, and also feel that the skill is fine as is.

An alternative which might address this problem is the ability to portal a player to a group. I've seen one implementation I rather liked where some number of players with the portal ability join together to pull a player to them. Then, if the player dies, as long as enough group members survived, they could portal the player back to their location.

Of course this immediately raises the same issue with the portal ability if it ends up being a high player level skill. But perhaps it could be offered at a low level which would require more players to join in to portal a player, and at higher levels of the skill, fewer players would be needed.

I liked this portal ability in the game(s) I've seen it. It really does seem to help foster good group gameplay. Some careful consideration would be needed by the PG devs though, since it might allow unexpected bypassing of quests, dungeon levels, etc. We wouldn't want a mechanic that allowed a couple of players to "camp" on the necromancy altar and pull new group members to their location all day long, for example. So some restrictions would also be needed.

[Crissa]

Perhaps there should be a special ability to bring players back at notable requirements: Threshhold of an Elite, or after defeating an Elite? Like, when the last in a boss-battle dies, everyone to damaged/aggro table of the boss gets a free res?

[Lendari]

As far as a solution goes - don't die maybe?

Hmm, the question is not "should people die". That is a straw man. They should not and there should be punishment. However, the question I am posing is more complex: "is the current death experience within the context of a supportive multi-player group working as intended"?

My experience is that this event causes groups to either (1) disband or (2) altruistically re-clear and entire dungeon for one individual.

If you believe that is working as intended, so be it. However, saying "don't die" isn't really contributing to that discussion.

[Tsugumori]

Hmm, the question is not "should people die". That is a straw man. They should not and there should be punishment. However, the question I am posing is more complex: "is the current death experience within the context of a supportive multi-player group working as intended"?

My experience is that this event causes groups to either (1) disband or (2) altruistically re-clear and entire dungeon for one individual.

If you believe that is working as intended, so be it. However, saying "don't die" isn't really contributing to that discussion.

You quoted a small portion of a larger point so kudos to you, buddy.

If that's all you took away from what I said I'm sorry you feel hurt that I countered your silly idea for yet another res skill. Not to mention how silly it is for new or lower level players to have such a skill seeing as there are no lower level dungeons that are particularly large nor can they get very far anyway.

Your scenarios or 'experiences' were what, with parties without the skill? Clearly no boy scouts present, never taught about being always prepared?

PG has the res skills there in the game for those who want them, you merely have to work for them. New/lower level players who don't even know such a skill exists just have to go looking for one if they want one. Otherwise... what's the point? So that death becomes nothing?

Honestly, it just sounds like you're having a rough time without the skill. If you don't want to work for it however - well, that's on you.

[Also it wasn't a straw man, it was more of a "is this guy serious..."]

[Tchey]

I support the idea of another way to rez, and at lower levels (15, 25, 50, 75) with improved effects on the target (more % of full, less debuff...) and the caster (better cooldown, less consumption, faster cast...).

It could be attached to different skills, with variations.

Meditation, Mentalism, First Aid, Battle Chemistry, Necromaniac...

Could be with a debuff, a lock on maxlife for some minutes, the need of a potion, the sacrifice of an object, group only, but also a normal simple rez-cast.

[ShubiMaja]

Bards now have a lvl 50 skill that can mass resurrect under certain conditions



http://cdn.projectgorgon.com/v277/icons/icon_3669.png" alt="icon_3669.png" style="border: none; vertical-align: middle; width: 64px;
50Hymn of ResurrectionA whispered song of prayer restores life to all dead allies nearby. The allies must have heard your Song of Resurgence or Song of Bravery during the last 90 seconds (while they were alive!).

Note: to use this ability, you must be wearing a piece of equipment that enables it.Eligible dead allies return to life with 50% of their Max Health.
Can Be On SidebarGenerates no extra rage.Power Cost: 70
Range: 30
AoE: 30
Coold

[rastaah]

Then don't make it early on :) Just make it later in game or is there already one?

[rastaah]

I would suggest educating people rather than getting all snarky Tsugomori because many, like me, who are newer don't even know if there is one in the game at all. We are just starting out. So how would we know? I did not take your comment at me so much as snarky as the one towards another.

Educate :) That is the best thing to do when you feel someone is not seeing your point rather than jumping to conclusions. For instance, I don't want the game to be too easy with too many rez skills either early on or at all honestly but I am still open to hearing all sides and hashing it out by talking and listening and being educated and in some cases educating.

[cratoh]

Where does that bard rez skill come from please?

[Tsugumori]

I would suggest educating people rather than getting all snarky Tsugomori because many, like me, who are newer don't even know if there is one in the game at all. We are just starting out. So how would we know? I did not take your comment at me so much as snarky as the one towards another.

Educate :) That is the best thing to do when you feel someone is not seeing your point rather than jumping to conclusions. For instance, I don't want the game to be too easy with too many rez skills either early on or at all honestly but I am still open to hearing all sides and hashing it out by talking and listening and being educated and in some cases educating.

I wasn't being "snarky", I was being blunt.

I'm happy to, as you put it, 'educate' when its warranted or wanted.

Read through the thread again, I mentioned where resurrection is possible, either through items or skills. I wasn't negative, passive aggressive or trying to incite something.

I get this is an idea thread for a new res skill and I'm all for 'yada yada free speech' so I merely countered the idea, it would appear Len is perhaps also a new player frustrated with the current system and the lack of an easy to access res. skill, possibly unaware of how potent such a skill is and why it shouldn't be so readily available, but I digress.

Wasn't having a go at you, I just got to the point and addressed what you said, nothing more.

[rastaah]

I guess what I am saying is I don't even know where res is in the game now or if it exists and so just meant to say I myself don't really so much as desire it at lower levels (could care less really) as that I want to say if people are dying say in last few minutes of a boss fight needs to be a way to include them in the loot , heck, even if the tank dies at last minute (that is if we have tanks lol, don't even know that)

I did not take it towards me so much, if you read I mentioned it was towards other guy and only brought it up as many of us are brand spanking new !! We really are newbs (not all of us of course)


And I did not think you were passive aggressive at all.

[Extractum11]

Where does that bard rez skill come from please?

You have to find a weapon with the mod that enables it. Can probably just transmute a bit to get that.

"Your Bard Songs cost -20% Power. In addition, you can use the ability Hymn of Resurrection 2. (Equipping this item will teach you the ability if needed.)"

30 minute cooldown, but the level 70 version brings your allies back at 100% health.

[Crissa]

I wasn't being "snarky", I was being blunt.

You were being an asshole.

Dungeons exist and have multiple levels long, long before level 50. I don't know a dungeon that won't repop long before you finish the boss at level. Even the rat sewer the first rat will repop when you get to the end - and that's at level 50 and it's the shortest I can think of. Let alone someone at level trying to get to their stuff.

Countering the idea by being a jerk is trolling.

[Tsugumori]

You were being an asshole.

Dungeons exist and have multiple levels long, long before level 50. I don't know a dungeon that won't repop long before you finish the boss at level. Even the rat sewer the first rat will repop when you get to the end - and that's at level 50 and it's the shortest I can think of. Let alone someone at level trying to get to their stuff.

Countering the idea by being a jerk is trolling.

Right.

The discussion was group dungeons though... Not every dungeon. The first -proper- group dungeon which required a full party on par with its intended level was Dark Chapel in eltibule. OP's (Len's) idea has only really become relevant since the party size reduction to 6, making dungeon runs harder for the intended levels.

On top of that, "someone trying to get their stuff" - if this refers to hardcore mode that's a whole other thing.

Thanks for quoting me though and not reading anything. o/

[Tagamogi]

The discussion was group dungeons though... Not every dungeon. The first -proper- group dungeon which required a full party on par with its intended level was Dark Chapel in eltibule. OP's (Len's) idea has only really become relevant since the party size reduction to 6, making dungeon runs harder for the intended levels.

Alright, let's talk about "improper" group dungeons. Say you are a in group of 4 roughly at-level people who just took down the Nameless Guardian in the crypt in a nail-biting fight. One of you died just seconds before the guardian went down. The person who died is very very unlikely to make it back in time to loot the boss's corpse before it despawns. If your group wants to continue and give the rhino boss a try, you will need to go all the way back to the entrance of the crypt in order to join up with your missing group member. Is this fun gameplay?

Personally, I'm really in favor of trivializing things here. I like the summon group member idea - that would also help with someone showing up late to join a group that has already started a dungeon run. Trying to figure out the logistics of how to get people in the same group into the same place and making sure that everyone gets loot that they earned tends to be one of my least favorite things in any game, so anything that simplifies that is good, in my opinion. I'm aware that making things too trivial can also be non-fun, though. :D

[rastaah]

Give one of the magic classes a 'moongate' skill and let them open a moon gate and pull people through :D Solved. teehee.
(drawback to moongate can be it can implode killing the person coming through when someone with low skill opens it, the more skill the more stable the gate, and I am directly plagiarizing a skill from DR but it was a grand wonderful skill , even could use it to drag people through unwillingly lol which I know will never happen in this game but was fun . In any case portals/gates etc all work but just make the skill something you have to work for whatever your level is, just make it hard work)

[alleryn]

Personally, I'm really in favor of trivializing things here. I like the summon group member idea - that would also help with someone showing up late to join a group that has already started a dungeon run. Trying to figure out the logistics of how to get people in the same group into the same place and making sure that everyone gets loot that they earned tends to be one of my least favorite things in any game, so anything that simplifies that is good, in my opinion. I'm aware that making things too trivial can also be non-fun, though. :D
To play devil's advocate, this might continue the trend towards dps>all. The more death is a non-issue, the more attractive a group full of glass cannons becomes.

I know the role-structure is still up-in-the-air, but if we want a system where 'unkillable' tanks or rage reducing/placation specialists are valuable party members, keeping downsides to death may be desirable. Just a thought.

[Celler]

I actually think its the other way. I feel it should be an endgame skill that is both hard to use and seldom worth it.

Completing a dungeon when everyone has been revived 2 or 3 times and at times its been close if rezs were ready or groups have had to wait is not a mechanic I like.

We have the items both from guild and druid alters that revive ourselves also now. I completely understand that getting up for that last hit or 2 to finish boss and miss curse is worth it. I just feel it cheapens the whole thing knowing if you die for something worth 5oo gold your up and at them again.

[Crissa]

If rez isn't available, then the lower level dungeons will be abandoned by groups without it. Leveling at-level will become very, very difficult without some high-level to lead you through like sheep.

Basically, making the choice that there's no way to get back to the boss if you die in the boss fight... But only for lower levels? That's crap.

[lilibat]

Full disclosure, I haven't read every post in this thread.

Rez in this game is weird because it isn't class locked. In most MMOs it is and that's how it's gated. The closest similar situation I have recent experience with is FFXIV where several classes get a rez, only some can be used in combat. Anyone can use a phoenix down out of combat but you can only carry one.

The thing about PG, and it is a problem for me because I alway play dedicated healers in MMOs, is... there are no dedicated healers in PG. It has to be gated somehow. The question whether the current gates in the game are really working. As far as I have seen, PG isn't meant to be like most modern MMOs. It's not supposed to be easy or convenient. The devs have to balance that more hardcore/old school feel with the impatience gamers have from playing other easier MMOs. The problem is with it being more DPS oriented it's really hard to capture that old school feel for me. I'm still working on the thinking that you need tank/healer/CC/DPS/DPS/support from my EQ days because those are still the best memories I have, but I digress. Roles really aren't defined here, so no one class has rez. That means it has to really be limited if the devs want the feel of real challenge, death being meaningful, (in this case a mixed blessing), and making players work for things.

From when I was playing regularly: Most players don't seem to want to do the lower level dungeons without a babysitter. There doesn't seem to be much point and it does end up just being an exercise in frustration if you try. Is this what the devs want? For the lower level dungeons to be an experience of being mentored or do they want lower levels to group and run them on their own? If the latter I just never saw that happening. In fact I never saw entirely level appropriate groups till maybe wolf caves in Kur being talked about. That's fine for alpha or beta but once the full scope of levels is opened up, and you no longer have so many higher level people with nothing to do is this really viable? Do we even really know how well appropriate level groups can take crypts or goblin caves? I don't think the question about the accessibility of rez can really be answered till people are forced to go through things at appropriate levels.

Maybe I am wrong and have missed some data here. I am just going on what I have seen. My 2cp, etc.

[Tagamogi]

Rez in this game is weird because it isn't class locked. In most MMOs it is and that's how it's gated. The closest similar situation I have recent experience with is FFXIV where several classes get a rez, only some can be used in combat. Anyone can use a phoenix down out of combat but you can only carry one.

Having a resurrection item that can only be carried in limited quantities could actually be a really good option to limit the number of rezzes on a dungeon run. If that's what we want to do. :)

Another limiting possibility could be to just put a really long cooldown on the rez - say something like 30-60 minutes before the rez can be used again. Higher levels of resuscitate could have a shorter cooldown or other bonuses. (I don't have the currently available rez, so I'm not sure about its cooldown and whether it works in combat.)

Slightly off-topic: I think part of the reason there aren't a lot of lower-level groups is that it can be just hard to actually find a complete group at that level since our playerbase isn't that big and most players tend to be at the current max level. You are correct that it's pretty hard to guess how these dungeons work at level when almost nobody is actually doing them that way.


To play devil's advocate, this might continue the trend towards dps>all. The more death is a non-issue, the more attractive a group full of glass cannons becomes.

I know the role-structure is still up-in-the-air, but if we want a system where 'unkillable' tanks or rage reducing/placation specialists are valuable party members, keeping downsides to death may be desirable. Just a thought.
I'm going to say no to that one, just because all the games I've played that had specific group roles also had pretty easy rezzes available. As lilibat said, those rezzes are typically class-locked but we still didn't bring the healer because we needed rezzes - we brought the healer because without the additional healing, nobody at all in the group would live through the fight. Those games also had some other, minor, penalties to dying, so maybe there's an additional discouragement there too but I've really never seen a group go all dps just because there are rezzes available. Having to stop after combat to rez everyone is still somewhat inefficient compared to just not dying to begin with.

[Crissa]

Why does it have to be gated?

[FURY]

Why does it have to be gated?

Every item that is worth something should have some kind of work associated to get said item, else it ceases to be worth anything as everyone can get it at any time at little apparent cost.



Rez in this game is weird because it isn't class locked. In most MMOs it is and that's how it's gated. The closest similar situation I have recent experience with is FFXIV where several classes get a rez, only some can be used in combat.

The bard skill has a group rez. :D



Now to the main point, that seems to be going in circles at this point I might add, Resurrection. Soo, Death. Its a tough thing, but players have penalties when they die. They get sent back to the start of whatever zone they are in. Rez'ing a player circumvents this by letting the player NOT respawn at the start but at the place of their death, great no downsides!!! Not so much, death is a limiter on player actions. It forces them to quit when they reach their limit and gives the player something to work toward for next time... "i'll be sure that i have enough armor/hp/power to survive khyrulak's rhinos". Taking this away, by giving a rez skill to low level players, devalues time spent PREPARING for dungeons. Not to mention that a low level rez skill would trivialize most of the low level dungeons(and most are doable solo) and their bosses.


So yeh, getting cursed and dying at the bosses feet while he laughs at you isn't 'fun', its a challenge to the player. It is so that they have a (temporary, mostly) reminder that they have work to do if they want their character to progress. And that is part of the fun, overcoming obstacles, removing the obstacles makes the goal(the loot) meaningless. Not gear isn't that noteworthy at lower levels, but its better to not start a slippery slope.

So while I think that more ways to rez would be cool(will have to see what the Bard brings to the table), I think that any new rez skills should still take the same amount of effort that the current rez's take to obtain.


Suggestion then...
The ways to rez currently are: Eternal Greens (boss drop, or 32 guild credits(can only use on yourself)), Guild rez (100 guild credits), lvl 50 First Aid Resuscitate, lvl 50 Bard rez, they all take a bit of work to get to. Hmm, maybe a boss drop that had a time limit to use? Or something that would make it really hard to use in combat like 'sacrifice 75% of your hp to rez a player at 10% hp", even then there would need to be some way to limit the uses, like not stacking in inventory or something maybe.


Anyway, I'm not of the opinion that new players need a rez readily available to them exclusively. But maybe a rez that ONLY they would want to use, because they don't have anything better. They have to give something if they want to take something.

[Crissa]

Well, in that you can't do anything while you're dead is kinda a big downside to dying.

I don't happen to think 'you get screwed out of whatever loot/event you were working towards' is a very fun penalty.

[Tagamogi]

Doing some serious piecemeal quoting here, I hope you don't mind.



Soo, Death. Its a tough thing, but players have penalties when they die. They get sent back to the start of whatever zone they are in. Rez'ing a player circumvents this by letting the player NOT respawn at the start but at the place of their death, great no downsides!!! Not so much, death is a limiter on player actions. It forces them to quit when they reach their limit and gives the player something to work toward for next time... "i'll be sure that i have enough armor/hp/power to survive khyrulak's rhinos".

Sort of yes. If you are playing in a group though, and everyone in the group but one player survives an encounter, it seems a bit unreasonable to cause the group to die at that point because its players are separated now and don't want to start over from scratch. That's not just a limit on the actions of the player who died, that's a limit on the group's actions and in my opinion "the group" did beat the encounter and should not be penalized in this way.



Not to mention that a low level rez skill would trivialize most of the low level dungeons(and most are doable solo) and their bosses.

This is a bit off-track but which low level dungeons have you solo'd at level? It's well possible I just suck at playing, but the only lower level dungeon that comes to my mind right now as "solo" is the Eltibule Crypt. Oh, and the cave in South Serbule. In all the other ones, the mob density and respawn rate is just too high for me to go far if I'm at the same level as the mobs.

It's true that many of the lower level dungeons are a bit smaller and it would be easier for a group to clear back to the entrance, so a rez may not be strictly needed. Still, there's the Serbule Crypt which all by itself justifies a rez ability, in my opinion. ;)


Anyway, I'm not of the opinion that new players need a rez readily available to them exclusively. But maybe a rez that ONLY they would want to use, because they don't have anything better. They have to give something if they want to take something.
Yes, I could go for that. I mostly just don't like the thought of low-level groups breaking up in a long dungeon just because nobody's had the time to level first aid that high yet. Working towards things is fun, but getting to level 50 First Aid takes quite some time unless you want to spam-level it.

[BobLocke]

Tie a rez to Dying and/or Compassion skill. If enough people mourn your death by viewing your grave ("enough" being based on Compassion, maybe boosted by leaving flowers?), you get a message asking you if you'd like to rise from your grave (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOQcnliEjXM) and warp back to where you died. Give it a cooldown that scales based on your Dying level.

This started as a joke suggestion but the more thought I put into it, the more I grew to like it.

[Tagamogi]

Tie a rez to Dying and/or Compassion skill. If enough people mourn your death by viewing your grave ("enough" being based on Compassion, maybe boosted by leaving flowers?), you get a message asking you if you'd like to rise from your grave (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOQcnliEjXM) and warp back to where you died. Give it a cooldown that scales based on your Dying level.

This started as a joke suggestion but the more thought I put into it, the more I grew to like it.
Hah, yes, I love it. :D

[Crissa]

Like a summoning stone in WoW.

Actually, I like it. Then if you're in a group, it'd work, but if you weren't, it wouldn't.

I liked my idea of a Rez having a special refresh 'has killed an elite'.

[rastaah]

Tie a rez to Dying and/or Compassion skill. If enough people mourn your death by viewing your grave ("enough" being based on Compassion, maybe boosted by leaving flowers?), you get a message asking you if you'd like to rise from your grave (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOQcnliEjXM) and warp back to where you died. Give it a cooldown that scales based on your Dying level.

This started as a joke suggestion but the more thought I put into it, the more I grew to like it.

This is actually great and fits this games personality so well :D

[Tchey]

Tie a rez to Dying and/or Compassion skill. If enough people mourn your death by viewing your grave ("enough" being based on Compassion, maybe boosted by leaving flowers?), you get a message asking you if you'd like to rise from your grave (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOQcnliEjXM) and warp back to where you died. Give it a cooldown that scales based on your Dying level.

This started as a joke suggestion but the more thought I put into it, the more I grew to like it.

I think it's an excellent idea, completely fits with the general game's weird atmosfear.

[Dragone]

Where I get the level 50 first aid revive? Only one I'm aware of is Yegreet in SV i got the lv 45 first aid revive from her.

[Eachna]

Tie a rez to Dying and/or Compassion skill. If enough people mourn your death by viewing your grave ("enough" being based on Compassion, maybe boosted by leaving flowers?), you get a message asking you if you'd like to rise from your grave (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOQcnliEjXM) and warp back to where you died. Give it a cooldown that scales based on your Dying level.

This started as a joke suggestion but the more thought I put into it, the more I grew to like it.

I really like this also.