Feedback: Remove Sexual References and Lower Profanity of NPCs

[Yertle]

While there are quite a few aspects of PG that I am enjoying, one area that I'm not a fan of is the high amount of sexual references and profanity of NPCs. I have two main problems with this text being so prevalent...
1) I sometimes have my younger kids are nearby and possibly reading over my shoulder, so having these types of things going across chat and quests is a drawback.
2) If you want a more mature audience, then I don't think this is the way to go. I actually think you could end up with a less mature audience by feeding sex and profanity (for generalities, think Darktide for an AC reference). I would propose going with deeper questions/lore/riddles than talking about having sex with a tornado.

I realize I'm a bit more conservative in my viewpoints and that there are ways to avoid/remove some of these interactions, but for general feedback of the game and where I could see it actually leading to, I just thought I'd mention it here.

Thanks for a fun (and currently free!) game!
=Yertle

[ANT3RA]

I can understand where you are coming from. I would like to make a couple of points though. For reference i am a 42 years old married male and have played video games religiously since the early 90's.

- Sexual innuendo and sexuality is everywhere in mainstream media, let alone a video game. You would have to isolate yourself from all forms of television, radio, online content and printed media to not see it.

- Profanity is also very prevalent in society and now formally accepted as a common social norm in terms of public use and acceptance. In Australia it is often a part of general banter and conversation.

- It is refreshing to see that a game designer is not adhering to a specific audience and creating a nanny state.

- It is better then seeing blood and gore, decapitations, mutilation and depravity in high definition which is often the case in modern computer games.

Please do not take this as rebellion or a personal attack on your views. I just see it differently is all.

Regards
Ant

[lilibat]

I like it being in there. Kind of cements it being a game for adults. Some of the sexy stuff is just funny, well at least the first 200 times you see it. I like the profanity being in there, again... a game for adults. Plus I swear a lot myself IRL, so I find it oddly comforting. Honestly it's one of the things I love about PG. It's the little things!

Also... a game for adults.

[Greyfyn]

It's an adult game. It's not PG, although the initials are PG. The adult references and comments by NPCs are part of the game and aren't going to change. I refer you to an old post by Citan that was recently brought over from the old forum:

http://forum.projectgorgon.com/showthread.php?286-Gameplan-Old-Forum-Discussion&p=2298&viewfull=1#post2298

From that post:

"This is an adult-rated game.

The game has no ESRB rating or similar yet, but we consider it "rated R" for adult situations, language, drug and alcohol use. There will never be dramatic blood, gore, or (particularly sexy) nudity, however."

[Yertle]

Also... a game for adults.

I get it's a game for adults, but I don't think having these types of interactions means the game will only be played/seen by adults or even that that is in fact what makes it a game for adults. So while my point #1 (http://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) is what is a drawback for me, #2 (http://forum.projectgorgon.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=2) is actually what would concern me more as the game goes GA.

I definitely do agree with Ant in regards to the limited blood/gore is nice and that the level of details of PG are excellent. I'm not offended by opposing views, but I do think different dialogue could make the game even better from my viewpoint.

As far as Greyfyn's "...aren't going to change.", of course things could change. Even when Citan said "never" in regards to PvP he backtracked and said it could be discussed.

[Khaylara]

I actually enjoy that part very much, it can be crude at times but c'mon, shagging a tornado xD It is meant for adults and most of the community is adult (slightly geriatric even). It's probably not a good idea to let your kids watch your screen when you play video games though, especially if they are very young. It's a bit much to ask for a feature to be removed based on "my kids are watching" imho, sorry.

[Tiamat]

So, for instance, why are the elves so sex crazed anyway? Well, there's some history behind that. (http://www.eldergame.com/2011/07/alpha-art-woes-sex-crazed-elves/)

The elf models were rather skimpy, and the females even wore high heels (lol plate metal high heels). As a result...


But it's [the models] distracting. I’m making a city for the elves to live in, and over time this ridiculous sexualization has seeped into its culture. Whenever I create a female shopkeeper or a quest giver or anybody else, they’re hypersexualized. I know I should have ignored their appearance, but when writing dialog for a woman in a slut suit, it’s really hard not to write them as being really kinky.

So I finally decided to run with it. I decided the elven race as a whole is just really sex-addled. They constantly talk about sex. They have inappropriate conversations about it everywhere. They obsess about it. That’s why they never stop being sexy, even when cooking, even when fighting, even when sleeping.

While it’s instantly clear that females are walking sex symbols, the males might be able to go about their lives without having to feel too oversexed. So I fixed that with NPC dialog. Turns out male elves all have very long penises. Two of them. Oh, you can’t see it in the model because their clothes are on, but everybody talks about it (and about how odd those humans are, with their one-penis anatomy). Tada!

Yes, that’s real content. I made it mostly out of frustration. I kind of doubt it will stay in the game, because of how conservative the US culture is about this sort of thing. Heh… but weirder things have happened.

So, yeah, it could change. If it does, that won't be for a long time probably.

[Greyfyn]

Thanks Tia--that's hilarious!

History and backstories make games more interesting. So far, npc dialogues have been more imaginative than in some mmos; I appreciate the difference. Changing the nature of elves by making their statements more neutral to suit the audience removes that bit of flavor.

As for the audience itself, I think it's impractical to assume that players will primarily be from the US. I've encountered people from Bulgaria, Morocco, Sweden, Argentina, Poland.... And of course, we have a lot of players from Australia and New Zealand.

When it comes to sexuality, I like how this game has handled some aspects. Gear for example, looks the same on male or female models. That's significant. Spring Fairy gear--hahahaha.

[alleryn]

I'd agree if the sexuality/profanity were gratuitous, but where i've seen it, i'd categorize it as appropriate/realistic, which to me is what's important.

[Greyfyn]

I found another relevant Citan quote from 2 years and 1 month ago. Since the old forum content might not be accessible in the future, I'll attach it here for reference.




They lost me... Citan 2 years 1 month ago #1928

Yeah, there's no need to crucify somebody for their opinion. I read his post, shrugged, and that was that. If he felt strongly enough to bother posting, then at this point I want to hear it: I did ask for feedback after all! And people have complained about almost every aspect of the game's design. I don't think that's bad. If they weren't complaining, I'd know the game wasn't treading new ground.

There are definitely people who will not play the game because the NPCs say dirty stupid stuff. If those people would also refuse to play a game with "lingerie model armor", then I can't fault them for that: they have beliefs about sexuality, and as long as they aren't hypocritical about it, that's fine by me. (If they're the sort who like women in games to be nearly naked, but to keep their mouths shut about sex, then that doesn't sit as well with me. But still, whatever. I'm not here to lecture people: play or don't.)

The design of the elves came from seeing all the prefabricated "elf models" I could buy when I was developing the game. They were supposed to be mighty archers and swordsmen, but they could never take off their high heels or wear a supportive bra... it was ludicrous. So I did the indie thing and dug into why: if they look like this when they're fighting, they must have a reason, right? They wouldn't dress this way just to entertain the game player. And it became obvious that elves would be pretty into sex.

That artwork is long gone and elves are much more modest in their appearance (which is how I want it). But they remain very "into" sex. I find it a useful racial attribute. Most games have elves which are just "humans but arrogant" and dwarves which are "humans but stubborn". If we have to stereotype a whole race in order to make it work in a fantasy game (and we kinda do -- otherwise they just come across as "humans with different appearances"), we can at least give them new stereotypes!

That stereotype also helps explain racial animosity between humans and elves, provides backstory hooks, and gives roleplaying opportunities. (Although it also has created a few unfortunate "roleplay" scenarios, too, so like every design, it's a double-edged sword.) As the game goes on and we see how each race approaches sexuality, it will let me highlight the differences between the races in a way that few other games manage to do. I find it interesting, and that's basically my litmus test.

If I had to change the elves in order for to be successful, I'd just remove them. I don't really need "humans with long ears and no other discernible differences" in the game -- I'm an indie, and artwork costs a fortune. I need every aspect of the game to pull its weight from a gameplay point of view. Elves weren't in the original design of the game, it was going to be only humans. So I have considered removing the other races and tightening things down -- but at the point I'm not planning to do that. It doesn't seem to be a deal-breaker for most people.

Anyway, as a community we need to avoid jumping on people who have different opinions. It's useful to mention that you disagree, and to say why. But being too hostile will just make this forum an echo chamber where people only post if they have the same views as the majority. That would really be detrimental to the game. So please consider your words carefully when responding to an opinion you disagree with!

[rastaah]

Well I am older as well, lets just say could be oldest one in this thread lol and I am 100% in support of the profanity though I myself may not swear etc , this gives the game its flavour, its character and personality

Lets not start so soon ripping that out.

From one who has children herself....I can assure you they hear worse at school and it may not be the best game for little ones. Perhaps best not to have really little ones playing this game.

Let the NPC's be that way. One reason I quickly got on board with this game was just the personality like that. There are a dime a dozen games out there that do not do this. And not to be dismissive but I just feel like if you don't like it why play the game?

I truly don't mind it and would miss it as it is part of why the game has charm to me is it is realistic. I assure you in medieval times people were not PC. lol.
Have we not had enough PC in the world ?

((I am located in CA/USA by the way just for geographical reference))

[Tagamogi]

It seems we have two separate issues here:

1. Children accidentally reading words they shouldn't over someone's shoulder
2. Adults not enjoying sexual references or profanity

The first could be pretty easily addressed by adding a generic bad word filter to the game that a player could optionally enable if they choose. A word filter wouldn't help much with the second issue though.

I get it that not everyone will enjoy the game's current level of profanity and sexual references. I was thinking about that recently myself - I have some friends that I'd really like to play with again, and I think they'd like Gorgon, except for the language. They left a guild we belonged to because they didn't want to deal with people occasionally cursing in guild chat - I think the chances of them putting up with the language in PG are pretty slim. So, that sucks. But - I still agree with about everything that has been said in favor of Gorgon's language/story in this thread so far. To add my overly verbose two councils in support of the current language:

There are a ton of games/movies/books out there that carefully tone down what they say in order to get the desired kid-friendly audience rating. There are some games/movies/books that instead intentionally include unneeded profanity or sex in order to appear more mature (and usually achieve the opposite in my jaded opinion). Having a game like PG that isn't aiming for a particular rating and just says "fuck" because that happens to be the most appropriate word in the current context is utterly refreshing.

I like the sex-obsessed elves. Again, a lot of other games just throw in some vaguely sexy stuff because under-dressed chicks on the cover sell. PG actually *thinks* about what it's doing - ok, so elves like sex a lot, how does that translate into marital relations and what do other races think of it? I like it that elves are actually notably different from humans in culture and behavior, and not just in some noble, wishy-washy way like "elves like to sing a lot" that would be unlikely to generate any interracial tension.

People in real-life curse. People in real-life tend to gossip a lot about sex, however obliquely, and look down on other people that engage in sexual behaviors they disapprove of. Having some of this brought into a game, in a way that is consistent and makes sense, is pretty cool.

In my opinion. The current level of profanity/references in Gorgon works great for *me*. I'm happy with it about 95% of the time. Sometimes, it does feel a bit overdone to me, but it hasn't really interfered with my enjoyment of the game. Since tastes vary, it's obviously not going to work for everyone. Does that mean it should be changed? I hope not.

[cratoh]

Personally speaking, the first time I heard Rita and Blanche I thought it was sort of funny. Then, over time it totally has lost all of it's appeal. To me at least the smutty stuff doesn't come off as adult, more sort of 14 year old school yard smut and therefore annoying.

I'm far from a prude, and swear all the time, love sex and don't mind any way a conversation turns.

I just dunno, maybe after the 10th time it just sort of loses that novelty and becomes a tad as described.

As for kids watching/playing. It's aimed at adults - that's not the devs/games problem that is up to the responsible adult to prevent the kids seeing the media. I wouldn't let a kid see porn, violence or horror content if I was watching it, no more than I would let them watch me playing an adult game.

[Corakhan]

I find it amusing when people complain about vulgarity and sexuality in a game where they commit genocide on daily basis.

[alleryn]

I find it amusing when people complain about vulgarity and sexuality in a game where they commit genocide on daily basis.

Die potato seedling, die!!!! Woah, sorry i was overcome by the bloodlust for a moment.

[Yertle]

Overall great reply Tagamogi!


There are some games/movies/books that instead intentionally include unneeded profanity or sex in order to appear more mature (and usually achieve the opposite in my jaded opinion).
I agree here and this is one my main points outside of my own personal viewpoints.
I do think the vulgarity and profanity will turn some people away from the game, who would otherwise would really enjoy it.



PG actually *thinks* about what it's doing
I do think this is great and from a story and overall Lore/Design it is great knowing that it is more a part of the Story rather than just an out for a developer. Thanks to others for the past references and additional details.



Personally speaking, the first time I heard Rita and Blanche I thought it was sort of funny. Then, over time it totally has lost all of it's appeal. To me at least the smutty stuff doesn't come off as adult, more sort of 14 year old school yard smut and therefore annoying.
Maybe that is part of the issue that I have, it's that it is flowing so often that it feels too prevalent to just be a fun little detail of the Lore/Dialogue.


I think it would still be great to have some options or lessen to a degree for the main content (NPC public chatter and main Quest interactions).

[jaspen]

I found it to be refreshing and look forward to more vulgarity. While you state it will drive some away it will also lure some in. I get tired of insidious political correctness. I vote to keep it in and don't be afraid to add more. Long as the game states it has adult content, then I don't see a problem. It is one of the things that makes this game unique. To be honest, to me, it feels more realistic and, for me, that enhances the game.

At the end of the day, i feel it is the person who chooses to be offended and not the other way around. They are words and we are adults. I also agree I find it humorous, and to an extent hypocritical, when one person will gripe about language while happily partaking in extreme never ending violence. If you can justify one then you can justify the other. There is no global approved upon hierarchy of which is better or worse. At the end of the day it is all virtual and meaningless. It doesn't come alive, live with you and following you around in real life. All dialogue repeats, so click the tab that doesn't show NPC dialogue and never see it again.

[Tagamogi]

I do think the vulgarity and profanity will turn some people away from the game, who would otherwise would really enjoy it.

Yes, unfortunately. The same is true of a lot of design decisions though, not just this one.

Rambling on about profanity a bit more: The reason I tend to dislike it in games/movies/books is that it is often used excessively as a substitute for plot or vocabulary. To me, Gorgon doesn't do that - swear words are just a very small part of the overall vocabulary which includes many, many other words. (And some of them, like "non-ruminant ungulate anatomy", just leave me drooling speechlessly in admiration.)

Of course, which amount of profanity, if any, is acceptable rather depends on each player's views.



I think it would still be great to have some options or lessen to a degree for the main content (NPC public chatter and main Quest interactions).
Yes, if an optional filter could be easily implemented, I think it would be nice. I wouldn't want the game to go to the hassle of rewriting NPC dialog though, so some of the NPC interactions could end up sounding pretty odd if they are just simplistically filtered.

[rastaah]

I think we all need a Medieval lore history lesson. People talked a lot worse than Rita and Blanche lol. God bless those 2 poor ladies. They just need a good man or three.

Just sayin.

[MorKazim]

i think that you all have lost the real issue ...

"turns out male elves all have very long penises. Two of them."

... really?

[Khaylara]

I found it to be refreshing and look forward to more vulgarity. While you state it will drive some away it will also lure some in. I get tired of insidious political correctness. I vote to keep it in and don't be afraid to add more. Long as the game states it has adult content, then I don't see a problem. It is one of the things that makes this game unique. To be honest, to me, it feels more realistic and, for me, that enhances the game.

At the end of the day, i feel it is the person who chooses to be offended and not the other way around. They are words and we are adults.

That!

A couple of years ago a person posted on the old forum that they quit on the character creation screen because they read the background story on their elf character. And made a pretty angry post about it. I think that was record breaking in the way of rage quitting.
Personally I spent my first couple of days in this game listening to Rita and Blanche, talking to Coth and Nelson. I still follow Gretchen and the skeleton death shepard around and crack up irl.
I turn off the User tab sometimes because of the players's conversations and not cause of Rita and Blanche. So the assumption that many will be driven away by the NPCs dialogues is imho unfounded. I think we should be more careful about how we express ourselves sometimes and worry less about how elven NPCs like sex.

[Gervase]

I say instead of debating whether or not the dialogue belongs in the game.

I say we rather debate the idea if there is a possibility this can be turned off on the users side, via an option.

To throw my personal opinion out there-- the fact that the vulgarity / sexuality is in the game, I quite enjoy it. It makes me laugh and definitely makes it apparent that it's -not- a game for kids. Even though it isn't a game for kids, doesn't mean that it's going to stop them from playing it - or being exposed to it how ever.

[Tsugumori]

I say instead of debating whether or not the dialogue belongs in the game.

I say we rather debate the idea if there is a possibility this can be turned off on the users side, via an option.

To throw my personal opinion out there-- the fact that the vulgarity / sexuality is in the game, I quite enjoy it. It makes me laugh and definitely makes it apparent that it's -not- a game for kids. Even though it isn't a game for kids, doesn't mean that it's going to stop them from playing it - or being exposed to it how ever.

I'm not strongly for or against it myself, I find it funny and actually appealing to be a part of a game community where the Devs have a sense of humour. (The proper stuff!)

That said I agree with the above point, I think it should be along the lines of 'turn off NPC chat bubbles and text appearing in all'.

This is a game inspired by the MMOs of old, I doubt the community is going to be comprised of pre-teens, so it's not wrong to say that the game is marketed for adults, but that doesn't mean there should be disagreements or counters to this suggestion, Yertle put it forward and objectively it's not a bad idea and I don't think it would be terribly hard to do. You can /ignore other players so the same should be possible for /ignore [NPC tornado orgy storyteller], it won't affect those who hold their sexual shenanigan anecdotes in high regard.

[Yertle]

Two quick notes...
- I'm not "offended" by the dialogue or word choice, I'm not a fan of it and I think it could be something different that would be better, but I don't feel attacked by it. Even before this post the amount so far has been bearable (and it has been good to learn that it has been thought about rather than just blatantly entered), but, again, my feedback would be lessen or options.
- In regards to the straw-man argument about violence, personally I'm not currently concerned with that with PG. The graphics aren't all that amazing :P and the monsters resemble monsters.

[Silvonis]

When someone says ‘it shouldn’t be that hard to do XYZ’ it is one of those things that is commonly misunderstood by the players. That is especially true when you are talking about an MMO like Project: Gorgon, there are so many things that are interconnected that a single change could require a lot of backend work simply due to how everything is connected.

As to the specifics of allowing players to disable NPC dialogue, well that has the potential to create a lot of trouble down the road. I can already see the accidental turning off of dialogue rage, the missing important information rage, etc. That’s not to say we won’t consider the suggestion, but with any suggestion – it needs to make sense for the overall experience that we are attempting to craft along with the expected functionality and development of the world.

[Crissa]

It might be nice to have a catalog of dialog you've seen and a flag on characters so you can get them to cough it up again.

There's a couple places where they don't say things again that I've talked to them before and since it's sometimes days, months, weeks until I talk to them again, I really need to remember what they said.

And yes, being able to hush of NPC yakking (or at least 'tune out') might be a nice offshoot of that?

It'd need its own UI, though. So no, it's not so easy. But I think it would be worth it.

[rastaah]

I decided to stick around here and play this game not just because of Rita and Blanche but because of the very obvious mindset in the game being quite amusing and old school. I like the realistic slant it gives the game as it really is something you'd hear in real life with 2 women doing girl talk. Women do really talk like that at times hate to tell ya lol.

I mean maybe not JUST like that but along the lines of being kind of vulgar.

Just one last story to share.

I used to play RIFT, in alpha and beta in fact :) I want to say my original character there was Pandora. In any case....I loved something about that game. What it was was that I could overhear people chatting from quite a ways off. You would overhear snippets of this or that , whether NPC or Players, if it was said out loud you could hear it from a realistic distance , say if I was outside the pub I might catch a snippet...etc. It gave depth and layers to the game for me. Made it realistic to know people were around, it was not so quiet and boring.....you felt a part of a world.

Well some time went by and players flooded in and started whining about this. They did not want to hear it. They wanted quiet. So the Dev's caved and took it away and you could only hear if you were literally RIGHT next to them.

Well it seems like such a small thing I know but it honestly put me off a game I truly loved. I quit within a few months not just for that reason but once Dev's start caving in one thing it usually follows they cave on more things.

So while just a small thing, to me these little things are worth speaking up about, whether you like it or not but as it is a part of the culture of this game I hope it stays even if you decide to make it so some can turn it off. I don't want to punished for someone elses needs/wants etc.

I am verbal about this just as I was in RIFT. does not mean I got my way, in fact I didn't (and many of us wanted that to stay in RIFT) but it is worth speaking up about as I really feel it is a slippery slope that starts with Rita and Blanche and moves its way around the game taking away flavour and culture.

[Moralis]

I love it, i feel it's unashamed and just... real. To me, that's wonderful.

[starsponge9]

i'm hearing alot of real world stuff about this subject, might want to incorporate that somehow into the game. maybe a skill for prude so the sex talk is filtered, maybe like the nameless curse, which i still havent gotten rid of, overrides any "filthy" language from npc's. like the elves hate dirty, filthy humans and make us go wash, we could cast piousness on ourselves, or cook angel food cake. dont really want to get super carried away with it but it could be a blast to add something like that. i personally dont need to hear it, but i love the game, and would like to see this aspect of the game developed more. maybe even a religious order that uses prayer to combat the evil, thats how holy warriors have been doing it for eons, why cant it work here. just running it up the flagpole to see who salutes it.

[drivendawn]

Honestly, I think it's pretty funny and really puts some character into the world. The game doesn't do it constantly or go over board like a bad irish film or anything either. To tell you the truth the quirky nature of the world and it's humor reminds me of the Xanth book series by Piers Anthony.

[ShieldBreaker]

Honestly, I think it's pretty funny and really puts some character into the world. The game doesn't do it constantly or go over board like a bad irish film or anything either. To tell you the truth the quirky nature of the world and it's humor reminds me of the Xanth book series by Piers Anthony.

So does that mean you are in favor a Censor Ship being permanently moored at the docks? Couldn't resist. :)

[Sommerlund]

The game reflects the reality. In reality we aren't living in a winipoo world, but in a world full of all kind of individuals. You can't just ask to get a person removed just because he is to rude in your opinion.
Personally i don't like rudness either, and i try to not use such words, but i like that it is in the game, because the game just feels more real like that.

As for your kids: If they can read the text, they are at least 7 or 8, i guess. I don't see a problem with this, just tell them that this is how they should NOT talk in public. They will have to learn anyway.

[Crissa]

Well, individuals have been removed for being rude.

About a year ago there was a big explosion of that. I didn't know if I was coming back because of it. But the devs put their foot down, and said what unacceptable behavior was, and I liked that.

NPCs aren't players. They play by different rules.

[Silvonis]

I don't want to stifle the discussion so please just view this post as a way for us to clarify our position on the matter rather than an attempt to close down the discussion. We intend on keeping the language and type of humor that you currently see in Project: Gorgon and, to a degree, expand upon it as we move through development adding new NPC(s) and areas.

[Yertle]

I don't want to stifle the discussion so please just view this post as a way for us to clarify our position on the matter rather than an attempt to close down the discussion. We intend on keeping the language and type of humor that you currently see in Project: Gorgon and, to a degree, expand upon it as we move through development adding new NPC(s) and areas.

Fair enough, your Game/Vision/Work (I mean this in a respectable way), but happy to know the feedback has been received. Thanks!

[Silvonis]

Fair enough, your Game/Vision/Work (I mean this in a respectable way), but happy to know the feedback has been received. Thanks!

We take player feedback and suggestions seriously and we actively encourage these types of discussions so please don't hesitate to speak your mind.

[SausageJavelins]

I personally find the R-rated NPC dialogue to be hilarious! The profanity is refreshing as long as it is done with a sharp wit (which seems to be the case in PG).

[Eachna]

While there are quite a few aspects of PG that I am enjoying, one area that I'm not a fan of is the high amount of sexual references and profanity of NPCs. I have two main problems with this text being so prevalent...
1) I sometimes have my younger kids are nearby and possibly reading over my shoulder, so having these types of things going across chat and quests is a drawback.
2) If you want a more mature audience, then I don't think this is the way to go. I actually think you could end up with a less mature audience by feeding sex and profanity (for generalities, think Darktide for an AC reference). I would propose going with deeper questions/lore/riddles than talking about having sex with a tornado.

I don't want to get rid of the mature dialogues, but I would like to see more non-sexual dialogues in Serbule. It feels like there's too many especially when there's relevant in-game information not being presented to players.

I'd ask that instead of removing sexual comments, mix in more comments that aren't delivered in a sexual way. I agree with one part of what the original poster said. It feels to me like it's become immature. Unlike the OP, it's not that I think having it in the world at all is immature. But I think having so much of the focus of dialogues in Serbule revolve around it becomes immature.

[rastaah]

What relevant in game information are we missing being given in Serbule? I am curious now :)

I am older in real life and honestly don't see the immaturity what I see is a rather sarcastic world which I quite enjoy so far anyway

[Tagamogi]

What relevant in game information are we missing being given in Serbule?

Directions to Eltibule and the Docks would be at the top of my list, but I'm easily lost. :)

Anyway, most of Serbule is populated by elves, so it makes sense to me that they would focus on sexual chatter. I like Rita and Blanche's chats - they sound like friendly girl talk. I do like Eachna's suggestion to mix in more non-sexual comments, though. (Well, ok, I'm always in favor of added dialog, but I also think it would be nice to have some more balanced chatter in Serbule.)

When I started playing, I thought the dialog for the Mushroom Jack root vegetable quest was a bit too blatant, but that was the only thing that really stood out for me.

[rastaah]

Do you guys really listen to those 2 though? They talk about other stuff (sometimes lol)

I have found things to be amusing thus far, I am older in real life :) I am again just going to be my broken record self and say I like the way the game is real and not trying to be a cupcake storyline :) <3

It is more Monty Python than offensive to me but eh, these days I am sure people would find Monty Python humour offensive.

Can Rita and Blanche or someone in game please say "To the winch wench!". Hah. Now that I'd love.

All I can say is I love the game as it is other than tweaks that are needed of course and that the sex starved elves are good because I love that they are not going to homogenize everything because if you do that the game goes back on rails like all the others that I am not playing.

I am not sex starved in real life and my elf won't be roleplayed as such but I like that as a rule the species has its up side and perhaps for some, its downside.
I hope all the races are very unique like that.

[Eachna]

What relevant in game information are we missing being given in Serbule? I am curious now :)

Spend 10 days watching 'help' and you'll see the same dozen or so questions specific to Serbule coming up. The stock response is "read the wiki" which defeats the purpose of paying attention to what happens in the game and reading the text.


I am older in real life and honestly don't see the immaturity what I see is a rather sarcastic world which I quite enjoy so far anyway

I'm older in real life as well. I'm not saying it's immature to have sex come up. I feel it becomes immature because of the sheer volume of sexual commentary in Serbule. I really enjoy Rita and Blanche but they're not the only ones. There's missions about sex, and favor text for Small Talk about sex. It just feels like it's "everywhere".

It's like using the word fuck. I'm an adult. I say 'fuck' whenever I like and I'm not shocked to see it used in a game. If I ran through a town where the NPCs used 'fuck' as every third word I wouldn't think "I admire how mature the developer is who wrote that". I would think "That feels a little immature." There's a difference between quantity and quality.

[rastaah]

lol Ok that makes sense (the fuck reference that is :P ) I see. Hmmmm, see here is my only thing and just take this as a new player as no matter how much I might like this game the truth is just a newb !!!

So....based on my newb self running around doing things I don't notice what you just said, but keep in mind have only done each quest once if that as I am seriously struggling hah....soooo while I have noted the sex references from Rita and Blanche...a bit (not excessively but I don't hang out by them I just happen to run by and talk to them etc.) I have not noted an excess in the game design, at least not 'yet'.

I do remember some guy offering services to some other guy and laughed....but that was it. :)

I just have not seen it as overdone 'at this point' in my play time and questing, if I were here a long time and hanging out there it may end up bugging me but not sure as I have not done that ever. So for me Rita and Blanche always seem to be talking of something different.

I have seen the help requests but not sure why or how Rita and Blanche would help those people or even me. Perhaps their quests but you have to earn favour first.

Here is what I suggest :) Rather than changing NPC talking about sex why not do a little work on the beginner island and make it just slightly more usable and intuitive. People will quit if they can't figure out in some sense that a quest is required to get out of there. I figured it out but I am an old timer in gaming....if I was not weaned on MUD rather than WOW like many I would get frustrated and quit when I could not figure stuff out.

Maybe just a touch more hand holding on newb island and then Rita and Blanche don't need to do it themselves :D

And by a touch I don't mean make it easy, just make it so there is some sort of understanding that an event has to occur to get off and at least elude vaguely to what it is so your average 'WOW' player will get it. I agree that if you don't want them here leave it as is though :)

And I guess I just feel the Island was more lacking than Serbule in help and direction giving!!! Just my 5 cents worth here.

[forphase1]

While there are quite a few aspects of PG that I am enjoying, one area that I'm not a fan of is the high amount of sexual references and profanity of NPCs. I have two main problems with this text being so prevalent...
1) I sometimes have my younger kids are nearby and possibly reading over my shoulder, so having these types of things going across chat and quests is a drawback.
2) If you want a more mature audience, then I don't think this is the way to go. I actually think you could end up with a less mature audience by feeding sex and profanity (for generalities, think Darktide for an AC reference). I would propose going with deeper questions/lore/riddles than talking about having sex with a tornado.

I realize I'm a bit more conservative in my viewpoints and that there are ways to avoid/remove some of these interactions, but for general feedback of the game and where I could see it actually leading to, I just thought I'd mention it here.

Thanks for a fun (and currently free!) game!
=Yertle

I agree completely with the OP. I played Ascheron's Call for years, and my brother invited me to try out this game as it has some of the same....flavor as AC did. I've played for a couple of days, and am really enjoying the game mechanics and everything, but unfortunately I'm not going to continue playing the game due to the vulgarity in the NPC language. Simply put, I have quite a few small children, and the oldest (8 years old) is becoming very proficient at reading and enjoys watching me play games. Due to the language in the game, I will not play it with him around. NPCs that drop the f bomb is simply something I can't put up with. I know this game is being made for adults, but even some adults have issues with this kind of language being so prevalent. You are inherently going to be limiting your audience due to the vulgarity of the game. And I know that 'it's in society and it can't be avoided' and unfortunately that's correct. But I can limit it as much as I can, and not playing this game is one of those ways. I wish it was otherwise as I think a fantastic game is being produced here, and I'd have loved to have supported it both with my time and my money.

[ShieldBreaker]

Vulgarity may limit the audience in one demographic, but it will expand it in others. The fact that it is done fairly well, means that it be hard for small indies to replicate and the big corps are going to play it safe and go no where near it. Which gives PG a unique market niche. Adults with small children will just have to get crafty in playing the game, closing the chat, hunting in the wild while the kids are around, and playing normal once the kids have gone to bed or school. Basically stay clear of NPC if kids are watching.

[rastaah]

I think it is in a way a fight for the culture and personna of the game and I don't mean some brawl kind of fight but I mean a fight of people who are here because it is different, not hand held, not on the rails, not sugar coated, medieval world was kind of gross to be honest....and so I will continue to put my 3 cents in on this subject as I actually believe in games being a bit real, not totally as obviously that can't happen and I would not want it to, I come here for escape not for more real life stuff but one thing I really went off most MMORPG for was the constant appeasement of whiners.

I don't think OP or anyone else not liking the language is a whiner to be clear but it is back to that slippery slope thing.

[Yertle]

as I actually believe in games being a bit real

I come here for escape not for more real life stuff

I get what you're saying, but I found this a bit funny :P

Thanks for the clarification on not being a whiner, as your comments about that seemed a bit like it. You can probably always read feedback as whining if you want to, or you can read it as just feedback (which was the intention of this thread).

[Lendari]

I think the backstory that elves are promiscuous is great. It creates good opportunities for atmosphere and tension.

in practice, some of the dialogue comes off as overly juvenile or corny. For example, the rita and blanche sillyness about wanting to have sex with a goblin or elves having two penises feels juvenile. Also there are some NPC's who just tell you to "fuck off" or something similar. Mostly, I've just assumed this is just placeholder placeholder dialogue and would be improved when they get to that part of the design.

[rastaah]

LOL well I am glad you got what I was saying but I don't think I am the most articulate writer in the world when it comes to explaining my thoughts on gaming stuff.

And indeed that is a paradoxical statement :D I really am just having a back and forth debate is what I meant on the whining thing, not thinking people are whining thinking they don't like bad language in a game :)

My issue is I have seen game after game after game after game dumbed down, made happy rainbow sparkly and so I feel like I should speak up going forward in games when I see it .

And if it changes I won't cry too hard :) Just something I think again, is a slippery slope of changing things due to erm....(thinking of a better word) 'complaining'.


I am not even sure what I meant by that comment though lol. What I really mean is that I like the game to be realistic in the sense that the girls are talking like real medieval people not REAL today poltically correct people :D i think I meant that hahah.



Now time for coffee and I might really know what I meant.

[chill]

This reddit thread from 1 month ago is what changed my mind on the topic. It started out great then people started mentioning this stuff (not adult things specifically... but KoL references, which I assume extends to adult content) https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/5u1lhy/new_favorite_mmo_project_gorgon/

I don't mind it one way or the other. I find it funny, otherwise I'm good at ignoring/zoning things out while playing when I want to. But the obvious solution here is to code in the ability to turn off "adult content": the devs can tag all of these dialogues at some point in the future and can let people toggle on/off. (That said, I saw Silvonis' post about this not being that easy to do/implement)

But basically I understand the argument that it kills immersion for some people and I wouldn't downplay that. And I also wouldn't ignore that some people have children nearby when playing. It may be dumb to not play a game because of the vulgarities, but I think it would be just as dumb (maybe even dumber) to write these players off and lose potential players in the indie game world if there's a common-sense solution that works for everyone. Even if it's tough to do, I think it's worth looking into adding this feature before release.

Just my 2 cents.

[Purgitori]

This reddit thread from 1 month ago is what changed my mind on the topic. It started out great then people started mentioning this stuff (not adult things specifically... but KoL references, which I assume extends to adult content) https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/5u1lhy/new_favorite_mmo_project_gorgon/

I don't mind it one way or the other. I find it funny, otherwise I'm good at ignoring/zoning things out while playing when I want to. But the obvious solution here is to code in the ability to turn off "adult content": the devs can tag all of these dialogues at some point in the future and can let people toggle on/off. (That said, I saw Silvonis' post about this not being that easy to do/implement)

But basically I understand the argument that it kills immersion for some people and I wouldn't downplay that. And I also wouldn't ignore that some people have children nearby when playing. It may be dumb to not play a game because of the vulgarities, but I think it would be just as dumb (maybe even dumber) to write these players off and lose potential players in the indie game world if there's a common-sense solution that works for everyone. Even if it's tough to do, I think it's worth looking into adding this feature before release.

Just my 2 cents.

If these said people were really concerned at what their children heard then they would play with headphones. I am fairly certain that the dialogue in PG is the least of a parents worries when if comes to language their child is hearing.

[Khaylara]

Due to the language in the game, I will not play it with him around. NPCs that drop the f bomb is simply something I can't put up with. I know this game is being made for adults, but even some adults have issues with this kind of language being so prevalent. You are inherently going to be limiting your audience due to the vulgarity of the game. And I know that 'it's in society and it can't be avoided' and unfortunately that's correct. But I can limit it as much as I can, and not playing this game is one of those ways. I wish it was otherwise as I think a fantastic game is being produced here, and I'd have loved to have supported it both with my time and my money.

I posted something about this few times and I was attacked. Although the post is made in a very respectful and polite manner, what it implies is "If you didn't insist on this feature I dislike I would've paid for your game. If you keep the dialogues the way they are you lost me as a customer". Some made similar "threats" when it came to multiboxing. Why would a game developer change anything based on basically monetary blackmail?

This was brought up by the OP too, kids. Sorry but it is not the media's fault if you guys do not establish boundaries for your children really. Would you let them watch porn over your shoulder? Would you let them watch a horror at 6-8 years of age? I bet the answer is a big fat no. Would you contact pornhub to ask them to remove the adult content cause your kids might see it? Okay I'm giving an extreme example but it really applies here. Why should Citan change his (crude sometimes but funny overall) dialogues because you cannot explain your very young children "When daddy plays it's daddy time, it's for grownups. You can do this when you are a bit older" and send them to another room. That's not too hard and it won't traumatize your children.

Although I worked as a middle school teacher for a few years I will not try to teach you parenting any further but you guys should stop trying to police language in NPCs dialogues. It's ridiculous.

[rastaah]

And there ya go! Khaylara see I need to take a note from your playbook and just 'say it' because I was trying to be too nice I ended up talking myself around into a pretzel :D

I think that while it is good to have dialogue the dialogue sort of stops when people start to say "Welp, would have bought your game but not now !!'

I did not think about it but that is probably the reason it got some resistance is the whole 'people won't play it' rather than "does this make the game better, if not what would be a good alternative? etc.


But one thing that caught my very peaked and now committed interest in the game was things like Blanche and Rita, just sayin.

[Yertle]

I posted something about this few times and I was attacked. Although the post is made in a very respectful and polite manner, what it implies is "If you didn't insist on this feature I dislike I would've paid for your game. If you keep the dialogues the way they are you lost me as a customer". Some made similar "threats" when it came to multiboxing. Why would a game developer change anything based on basically monetary blackmail?
This feedback is essentially the type of question a developer should be asking for when a customer does not pay or continue a service...'Why are you leaving?'
You ask why would a developer change anything based on "monetary blackmail"... in order to keep that person as a customer and make more money :p Another reason would be that feedback could make the game better, even if the developer may not agree with it. I've accepted Silvonis's reply above, but it is still a ding against PG for my playstyle and could make it easier to leave. Again, that's just my feedback.



This was brought up by the OP too, kids. Sorry but it is not the media's fault if you guys do not establish boundaries for your children really. Would you let them watch porn over your shoulder? Would you let them watch a horror at 6-8 years of age? I bet the answer is a big fat no. Would you contact pornhub to ask them to remove the adult content cause your kids might see it? Okay I'm giving an extreme example but it really applies here.
You're right, that is a bit of an extreme example and I wouldn't put PG in the same bucket as porn and a horror movie. The difference being that with changes to dialogue, then it would not be as big of a concern. I do put in safe guards to not playing when they're awake or interacting less with NPCs, but again, it is a drawback to the game IMO.


Although I worked as a middle school teacher for a few years I will not try to teach you parenting any further but you guys should stop trying to police language in NPCs dialogues. It's ridiculous.
Good deal, I wasn't looking for parenting advice from the PG forums :P

[Khaylara]

Yertle - you don't see how out of place and ridiculous this sounds? Until now (Including the old forums) I saw 3 or 4 people complaining about dialogues. What you people are posting is literally "Because I can't manage my kids YOU MUST put filters or change the dialogues in a game that is enjoyed as it is by few hundred adults. Or else I won't buy it".

Hmmmm let's see (pretending I'm Citan cause...roleplay) "Should I please these 4 people so they buy my game or keep doing what I'm doing and have about 1,000 players? Tough decision..." (probably more by now, I'm just using an estimate from ks and indiegogo)

I'm glad you didn't seek parenting advice on the P:G forum. On the other hand I wasn't the one raising concerns about my kids watching over my shoulder while I play. Most of us don't have that problem as far as I've noticed so again, look at this from a third person perspective and see how it sounds.
The same goes for any other game feature that one of us happens to dislike. Post that you dislike it but don't make demands like "Remove Sexual References and Lower Profanity of NPCs"- the title of this thread.

I've been playing PG on/off since 2014 and I kicked a fuss once because due to their datacenter the Oceanic region players were completely excluded from the game for over a month (since we weren't able to play with 2k ping). Now please compare being completely locked out of a game you invested time in for over a year with "my kids watch Rita and Blanche over my shoulder", that should create the above mentioned perspective.

edit, RPing again "Too bad I have 19817365 reports about client crashes and other shizz, I better start rewriting dialogues and moderating the game chat cause PRIORITIES!" (Yes I know I'm being over the top, hoping I'll drive my point home though)

[srand]

I think we've discussed this pretty much to death now. We're going in circles, and losing the civility we want to keep in feedback threads.

Thank you, Yertle, for bringing up this feedback and letting us see a lot of discussion on the topic. Even when we choose not to change things, it's good to know how those choices influence your opinion of the game.