Discussion: Dev Blog: February 2022

[Citan]

This thread is for discussing the latest blog post, which you can read here: https://forum.projectgorgon.com/entry.php?44-Dev-Blog-February-2022

[Tandiril]

Damn, I wish you all the best. Stay strong, you two.
Comments on the game components:
1) A povus-like statehelm ... that would have sucked^^ Also nice to hear that the decay rate gets reduced for now. I am not as optimistic that you hit the sweet spot for the final player population, but time will tell.
2) The "high level data" you need, is it about quantity of players, or quantity of different builds? Is a level 80 alt dedicated to a certain build as useful to you as a different player on level 80? There is only so much the high level players can do to "cultivate" new high level players, but high level alts/testing skill combinations on max level is an entirely different topic
edit: about the wipe: you mentioned at some point that you might open a fresh server when the time comes. The blog doesn't mention that, and also doesn't imply it by the sound of it. What's the status on that idea?

[INXS]

First and foremost prayers and thoughts for Sandra, wishing you all the best in this time.

The lv 30.
Serbule Hill and Serbule are very well set up with many things to do, explore. Serbule beside being the hub of the game has a variety of dungeons all different you can go into any of them and explore away, quest wise lots of npc have a slew of things to do, players start working on crafting skills and unlocking storage.

Eltibule, when people get around lv 20-30 they are told to go to goblin dungeon so off they go, wonder the land around the outdoor zone is just a very well designed and beautiful landscape to do that.
When it comes to dungeons what we got Goblin dungeon in main Keep, the Boarded up basement and locked behind Hogan's favor Hogan's basement, Animal Nexus tied behind a key and Dark Chapel entrance connected to the moon phases so things are not so straight forward like Serbule.

Maybe more awareness could be placed on Animal Nexus, maybe npc's mantioned it more maybe the place could use some TLC.

Dark Chapel, great dungeon over all tied to a daily which is well received by community when you almost reach the Scion boss there's a fork in the area 99% of the time the party will go for Scion and recall out.
The other part of dungeon is almost obsolete it's so deep down that just happens to be an inconvenient place to visit, maybe that whole branch of dungeon with Spiderlord and Mother Snail should be relocated and added as continuation to room behind Crazy Terry creating a dungeon that can also be explored and not just to kill mainly cultists.
Also maybe place a mark/board/stone so people can know which phase of the moon is and kind of hint to which altar they need to go to get in
an enlightened path could be explored since beside daily portal not too many venture in it using altars.

So you spent time in Serbule and run back and forth using the npc/storage you got but when you are in Eltibule what do you do, you run back to Serbule to store items a long run maybe place a desk to access Serbule storage from Eltibule it would help with the problem.

You mentioned lv 50 being the point where gear starts to matter and it's true so you go get transmutation and now it's lv 1 you need to go back to Serbule/Hills because you need green level 0-30 gear gain a few level run back to Makara and now it back and forth again and again, this can cause set back and a lot of journey.
Transmutation skill is so important that in our guild we take anyone who doesn't have it might they be lv1/1 or 5/5 or 20/20 it's something that needs to be addressed early on and people know the skill that when they get to lv 50 they know what they are doing.
Makara should be moved to Eltibule so transmutation skill can be introduced to the crowd earlier and it's a more accessible place.

[xerandus]

I'm kind of curious, in regards to close combat, how did we get from the Povus lamp lighting "It only takes me about 30 minutes, in pretty shoddy gear" to "And I learned that city fighting... sucks in this game". That sounds like very different statements. What changed? Personally I managed to solo the lamp lighting once, took me about 40 minutes with really, really good gear and luck that the only ghosts were in the Annex. I also managed not to die, which required a lot of care in advancing through the city.

I definitely agree with the more recent statement - that close combat sucks. The first one or two invasion waves after the lamp lighting are typically easier than the lamp lighting, probably because the enemies are concentrated in one or two regions of the city and not spread over the entire city, and consist of just 2-3 kinds of enemies. Some of the other Povus events, particularly the flapskull and the Ranalon one with the megafauna, you get such concentrations of enemies that fighting in the city is almost untenable, even with a couple full groups. We've largely adapted by fighting outside the city and pulling enemies out in ones and twos. The Povusaloosa events are probably different (I've always been busy with something IRL when they have been held) but I gather there were enough people on hand to overcome those difficulties.

[Edit]

In regards to needing more max level characters to get better data: Yes, there are many, many ways that skills can be combined. But if a combination isn't deemed viable, you aren't going to get a lot of data on that if you want to make changes. For instance, two skills without ranged attacks presents some difficulties when playing solo. It might be good for a tank in a group, but not when you have to chase down enemy archers/mages and beat on them in melee range, while possibly being hit by other ranged attacks at the same time. I recall leveling unarmed/battle chem on one of my alts, and though BC burst have 10m range, that really doesn't cut it when dealing with the ranged attackers in rahu desert, for instance.

[Tandiril]

I'm kind of curious, in regards to close combat, how did we get from the Povus lamp lighting "It only takes me about 30 minutes, in pretty shoddy gear" to "And I learned that city fighting... sucks in this game".
I have never heard anybody say that lighting lamps solo in pretty shoddy gear is possible, let alone in 30 minutes, ever. Really curious where you heard that. I agree with the lamp lighting, the waves after are much easier usually, so maybe reducing the necessary amount of lit lamps per area (let's say by half) might also help a lot in keeping people engaged in Povus.

[xerandus]

I have never heard anybody say that lighting lamps solo in pretty shoddy gear is possible, let alone in 30 minutes, ever. Really curious where you heard that. I agree with the lamp lighting, the waves after are much easier usually, so maybe reducing the necessary amount of lit lamps per area (let's say by half) might also help a lot in keeping people engaged in Povus.

It was Citan on Discord. That was a direct quote.

[Tinlaar]

Some ideas that I'm going to throw in:
-For the level 30s, I feel like the player is supposed to go to Sun Vale first, then head to Kur. Up until Eltibule, the game does a good job at pointing players where to go. Getting thrown into the brick wall that is Kur would scare off some players initially. The players just get dropped into an empty white plane and be expected to explore while the heat meter drops quickly. Yes, I know fires are a thing, but of course nobody wants to spend all that wood just to explore out in the middle of nowhere, or spend councils when the game is so money hungry. This has a relatively easy fix. The animal nexus could connect to Sun Vale, and players can take a boat to the west banks of Kur from the docks. This makes it a much easier run to Kur Village to regenerate heat, and opens up bartering with Ukorga for winter gear to help them explore further. The animal nexus also serves a purpose as the connective tissue between Sun Vale and Eltibule, instead of being a one-time dungeon that doesn't provide anything substantial aside from a few winterprize gems.
-Add more soloable content for level 50 players. Rahu's only 1/3 complete, and I definitely want to see it being a good leveling spot for level 50+ players. Rahu sewers does get very old over time. While the war caches are good for building up an arsenal of better gear, there are a few that require getting better gear to survive them in the first place. Say for example the one with the Rakshasa fire mage being a miniboss. Without good enough gear with evasion, mitigation or healing, regular players will be completely curbstomped by this guy.
-Speaking of DoTs, I feel like it really makes no sense that they bypass armor somehow. I've seen even high level players get burned to death on the reg, while they could solo elites just fine. Why not just calculate the damage in terms of the total damage divided by the number of ticks? For example, a DoT effect deals 480 damage over 6 ticks. Just apply the normal damage formula DMG=(ATT*VUL-FDR)*%DR, then divide the value of DMG by 6. Voila, armor mitigation is considered in the calculation.
-And speaking of damage calculation, by using that formula above, flat damage reduction is significantly less valuable than vulnerability reduction or % damage mitigation, and VUL reduction is better than %DR when both have the same values. My solution to this would be to put FDR at the back, so the formula becomes DMG=ATT*VUL*%DR-FDR. That way, FDR works as advertised, and VUL reduction has the same effect as %DR.
-Add a mod glossary in the skills tab for every combat skill, as well as recommended skill combos for every role in the trinity. Say for example staff is recommended to be paired with shield if you're playing a tank. This gives more direction for newer players that just learned transmutation and are starting to plan their builds.

[xerandus]

I'm not sure I like recommendations for certain combinations, as that makes them 'official' combinations and I rather think that is not how the game is intended to be. Then again, I haven't like the concept of the 'trinity' ever since my main in EQ2 was a coercer, which was at the time (maybe still, haven't checked in years) was support that can do dps, but support was a big part and that isn't part of the 'trinity'.

As skills get rebalanced, how well they fit into rolls are going to change. Initially people though Bard had nothing to do with healing, yet often the best healers in the game at present are bard/priests.

[Tinlaar]

I'm not sure I like recommendations for certain combinations, as that makes them 'official' combinations and I rather think that is not how the game is intended to be. Then again, I haven't like the concept of the 'trinity' ever since my main in EQ2 was a coercer, which was at the time (maybe still, haven't checked in years) was support that can do dps, but support was a big part and that isn't part of the 'trinity'.

As skills get rebalanced, how well they fit into rolls are going to change. Initially people though Bard had nothing to do with healing, yet often the best healers in the game at present are bard/priests.

I think by providing recommendations, at least people would have a template to start with, and they can proceed to experiment with other stuff. There's no "right" or "wrong" way to build, strictly speaking, but it doesn't help a new player get better over time. Throwing them to the wolves and telling them to "figure it out yourself" might turn out well, or it might turn out badly, players get confused and quit altogether.

[MarleVVLL]

Dear Project Gorgon friends,

as some of you may know, I have been visually documenting my character's journey through Project Gorgon in a fairly transparent way. Before I dive into more particular details, I want to extend deep condolences to the lead developers walking through their medical situation. The very best thoughts and support are going your way.

Some general thoughts:

I absolutely adore the starter island. The smaller area keeps the points of interest condensed and focused. Moreover, the quality of the environment is the best I've seen thus far in PG. I honestly wouldn't mind more "island" style content in this vein; my only complaint is that optimization when the entire isle in view is not great, perhaps due to the content-collapsed nature of the zone.

Serbule Hills is rather plain in contrast to the island not to mention there are wide stretches of the zone without compelling content which makes you feel like you're wasting your time in comparison to the newbie area/spider cave from which you've come. The visual quality also diminishes --not so much in resolution yet in terms of 'fitness.' I detail this observation in my video content.

Serbule Keep is a great zone and I honestly wouldn't change much of it; however, I would make it slightly more obvious where the various dungeons are.

Eltibule is somewhat similar to Serbule Hills although the recent patch has improved its visual fidelity. However, it still suffers from "open space" = feels like wasted space. Now that horses have been introduced, perhaps this observation ends up being an opportunity for advancement, yet the thrill of 'what's around the next corner' of dungeons/newbie isle aren't present here.

My main toon is 25/25ish in sword & archery. This level range feels a bit awkward. She feels too strong for Serbule Crypts & Brain Bug Cave yet too squishy for Mantis/Frogman/Dark Chapel dungeons. I'm sure there is cavernous content available to her to enjoy yet I don't know where it is nor where to find it.

I absolutely love the equipment system.

I have mixed feelings about the skill system. On one hand, meeting a new NPC with skills for archery is exciting, yet at first impression, when looking at upcoming skills, it feels bland and bleak. I'd rather that all possible archery/sword skills are listed with hints how to unlock them than randomly stumbling upon a NPC who can teach you more.

Newer animations are great.

I love Project Gorgon and I hope it continues to provide its unique charm in the MMO space! :)

[Yaffy]

Some ideas that I'm going to throw in:
-And speaking of damage calculation, by using that formula above, flat damage reduction is significantly less valuable than vulnerability reduction or % damage mitigation, and VUL reduction is better than %DR when both have the same values. My solution to this would be to put FDR at the back, so the formula becomes DMG=ATT*VUL*%DR-FDR. That way, FDR works as advertised, and VUL reduction has the same effect as %DR.
I made a post about this recently and why this isn't a good idea, because it does work this way for certain damage mitigation sources and it lets Staff/Shield become essentially invincible too easily.

I would love it if the flat damage reduction from armor scaled better, because it goes from god-tier at early game to basically useless at end game, but making flat damage reduction scale perfectly would be way too strong for staff players who can get hundreds of flat damage reduction compared to a normal player who probably won't even reach 50 flat damage reduction in a level 80 armor set.

[Celerity]

so the formula becomes DMG=ATT*VUL*%DR-FDR. That way, FDR works as advertised, and VUL reduction has the same effect as %DR
This would be a pretty big buff to flat damage mitigation that's not really needed. Tanks, or rather specifically staff/shield is already op. It would need to be accompanied by a complete recalculation of all the flat damage mitigation numbers to keep the balance the same. I do like the idea in theory though for simplifying things.


Speaking of DoTs, I feel like it really makes no sense that they bypass armor somehow. I've seen even high level players get burned to death on the reg, while they could solo elites just fine
This +1, I don't know if the idea of armour reducing them is the solution, but ever since the dot rework, basically all enemy dots in the game got roughly doubled in strength. Ever since then they have always been the most dangerous thing in the game and a rakshasa fire mage or a fire droach is at least twice as strong as anything else that's the same level. Hopefully this is something Citan is addressing.

I would add my ideas of potential quit moments (going to Kur rather than SV, transmutation as a core game mechanic being hidden away in a high level zone etc.) but I've already talked about them in more detail in the past on both these forums and discord.

[Mikhaila]

One suggestion for more high end players: Increase the benefits of doing Fungal Fortress.

Right now, I find it hard to ever get a group to do FF. People aren't that interested in doing it.

Drop rate is too low. The amount of time farming you would have to do to get a yellow piece of gear that isn't screwed up somehow, is quite daunting. It's easier to simply farm materials for a max crafted yellow level 80.

The WT aurest missions provide better chances at dropped gear, and are dailies making it easy to get a group, and giving a lot more cash at the end.

Level 85 vs Level 80 mods is not a huge jump. But dropping from a yellow or yellow mc level 80 to a red 85 can be a huge loss.

Maybe those goblin teleporters go somewhere spiffy to explore? It does feel like a smaller dungeon compared to WT or GK.

Suggestion: make the spore infested dirt drop more commonly, and have a recipe for fertilizer that makes 9 fertilizer. Many players spend time farming dirt for fertilizer in low level zones. This adds a small reason to do FF.

There is the possibility for other things as well. Random drops of "giant porcini cap" "Chunk of tasty fungus flesh" etc for cooking recipes.

WT has a lot of small items worth money or can be used for crafting, not so much FF.

[Tandiril]

It was Citan on Discord. That was a direct quote.

Wow I missed that one xD maybe the admin boosts were still on :D
On a more serious note, my experiences are similar to what you described, really good gear and you still need to tread carefully.

[Domo]

Hello Friends,

I have over 1000 hours in Project Gorgon and consider myself a casual. So, I will provide input and suggestions from this perspective. I adore the game and it has provided me tons of fun and made me some friends I have gamed with even outside of Project Gorgon.
The starting experience in Project Gorgon is gold. It is one of the best MMORPG intros I have ever played. The things to discover and do there are awesome.

Serbule Keep is another zone that has so many things going on and was fun to discover the dungeons.
Serbule Hills is vast and sometimes feels too empty. There are only a few interesting things to discover, but overall I am not too fond of spending time in that zone. It feels like a bland version of Serbule Keep. The Ranalon curse though is the best one I have discovered.

Etibule was interesting for me and I enjoyed exploring the zone. Albeit still having some dead areas, but it was a fun experience.

Sunvale is very flat. The first problem is that you discover Sunvale too late. I like the suggestion of linking the Animal Nexus to it. Overall Sunvale feels like there is very vast empty spaces and can sometimes feel monotonous to explore. There seems to be interesting things going on, but I am not compelled to investigate them. The island needs a rework. Especially the terrain. Add a volcano few mountainous cliffs.

Kur was a painful zone for me to explore and still is. Yes, I know there are ways to gain heat, but the whole cold mechanic is painful. And this is also where one of the issues regarding mobs start becoming problematic. I will discuss this later as the zones from Kur onwards seem to share this problem. I will be honest I don’t like going to Kur. When I need to go there, I usually wait for the Wolf Cave daily quest as it makes it easy to get to the important NPC. Can we also add more respawn points? Why if I die in the North, I must start at the South again. This makes no sense. It is already a pain to just get past the mobs. Please add more respawn points to cut down traveling.
Gazluk has the same problem as Kur. Although more interesting to explore it just is not fun to fight with the cold mechanic and the mobs.
For Kur and Gazluk my suggestion is to increase the cold timer. The desert areas thirst timer takes a long time to get to 0 why can this not be done for the cold zones.

I have no issues with the Casino. A fun place to be.

Rahu is a very interesting to explore, but then you hit the vast open desert and you have long stretches of sand with mobs. I feel the area needs rework especially the mobs there

Ilmari I think was done right. It still feels like a desert, but it has interesting landmarks. The terrain is interesting. The new rework is wonderful. The mobs are logically placed more spread out.

As you go into the higher zones it feels like you are discovering less and less interesting areas.

Before we go to Povus let us talk about the mobs. The mobs in Kur, Rahu, Gazluk are overwhelmingly clumped together. The mobs need to be spread out more. Maybe create areas where your mobs are limited to. The Yeti Cave is another area of pain. Outside that cave an army of Yetis are waiting to pummel you with their rocks.
Rahu desert mobs are even worse they are just clumped like a carpet. You have Rhino and Skeletons. I am not a lore person, so I have no idea if the lore supports the skeletons and Rhino to be in a desert. If they are meant to be fillers fair enough. But the mobs always disturbed me in that desert.

I have not spent as much time in Povus, but the times I did the mob density is still a problem. The zone is interesting in terms of the landscapes. My only gripe is the Povus invasion at night it is painful when you can find a group to do it. This is one of the reasons I have not yet committed to explore Povus as I feel I need to be well geared to explore there.

I also want to talk about the skills. I will admit that I am not a crafter. I do like the combat skills in the game, but what is painful for me is how all the skills are linked with synergy levels. In essence you are forcing a person who does not enjoy crafting to do crafting just to unlock their synergy levels.
Would it not make sense to reduce the synergy dependencies and let crafters come into their own as specialists?

I love the animal forms and Bat is my favourite animal form. From an animal player perspective there are some things that I think can be changed. I have no issue with NPC refusing to talk to me. I can live with that since I made the choice. Please allow animals to collect wood. We can pick fruit so it makes sense that we should be able to pick up wood. Create an item in place of the wood saw that animals need to carry to allow them to pick up wood. With the recent launch of riding as an animal I was forced to revert my form to human just to level that. As an animal player I was not very happy to do this, but the extra inventory space is hard to give up. An alternative system should be considered for animals to get speed and inventory.

I love the necromancy skill line, but I realized at higher levels that my damage was lower, in part due to the pet AI and in part due to my pets not staying alive(They do die a lot). I spent effort at a graveyard to create my skeleton guards, mages only for them to die so easily in the dungeon. A suggestion, give us a revive option like animal handling. As a future skill Idea please give the necromancer the ability to fight without pets or create a warlock version that specializes in darkness.

Storage is not fun to manage. I have storage chest everywhere and I loose track of where stuff is placed. Maybe as an interesting idea to explore. Why not create an NPC that can teach you dimension magic. Once you have mastered this skill you can access all your storage at dimension access points. As you gain favor you can unlock more and more dimension points allowing you to access all your storage.

I can’t think of anything else. I am just a casual player and hope something here might prove to be helpful.

[Kirdikan]

Great review. I don't agree with everything you said but great and useful review.

[Citan]

Thanks for the feedback everyone! I'm still interested in more feedback, wanted to answer some queries --


I'm kind of curious, in regards to close combat, how did we get from the Povus lamp lighting "It only takes me about 30 minutes, in pretty shoddy gear" to "And I learned that city fighting... sucks in this game". That sounds like very different statements. What changed?

I think there's kind of a misunderstanding here -- I realized city fighting (as I envisioned it) wasn't going to work in Povus before we launched Povus. It went through many iterations before it launched (and then many more iterations after). When I timed myself doing the lamp lighting quest, I was using what I considered a "final density" of monsters, but they weren't the same exact monsters that I ended up using, and I underestimated how impactful that would be. (Also, the layout wasn't randomized yet, so I may have inadvertently been memorizing what happens where -- not sure how much that affected timing though.)

My original intention was that lamp-lighting should be a soloable task for a single level 85 player with decent-but-not-great gear. And I still think that's a nice benchmark to hit eventually, but I also realized it's not really that critical right now: I still expect high-level monsters and players to fluctuate in power a lot, so trying to perfectly tune a huge encounter like that is guaranteed to require revision later anyway.

I think it's currently in the right ballpark. Too hard, but I could easily see it being too easy after a few more revisions.


In regards to needing more max level characters to get better data: Yes, there are many, many ways that skills can be combined. But if a combination isn't deemed viable, you aren't going to get a lot of data on that if you want to make changes.

I'm not trying to drill down as deep as you're suggesting... when I sit down to revise gear, the most important questions I want answers for are stuff like:

which treasure mods are currently popular?
which mods are seriously under-used?
which skill combinations are popular?
which abilities are used in each skill?


I've routinely used this sort of data in the past, but I've realized it's becoming inaccurate at high level due to the low number of samples. I'm not expecting to be able to actually "balance via data", as you can do when you have millions of players. ("Looks like the Sword of Godhood is OP by 5.4%!") But I can definitely get enough data to answer basic questions about how players are playing the game.

The first goal is to have enough data to detect the majority of currently-active skill combinations. Right now for some skill combinations, there's only one or two players using it at high level. But they are absolutely dominating the game with those combinations, which tells me that... there's not enough players, basically. Otherwise more people would have picked up on it.

Ideally I could get enough data bulk to tell which mods are used with which skill combinations. I hate when I make the mistake of replacing treasure mods that seem like junk (and are under-utilized, based on my data), but are actually critical for a certain skill combination. The data is too thin for me to pick up on that sort of thing, so instead of nurturing a weird combination, I accidentally snuff it out. That sucks.


about the wipe: you mentioned at some point that you might open a fresh server when the time comes. The blog doesn't mention that, and also doesn't imply it by the sound of it. What's the status on that idea?


That got edited out of the blog post because when I mentioned that in Discord, people assumed it was a sure thing, that we would 100% definitely add another server when we leave beta. But that's not something I can predict. If the beta population becomes huge right before we leave beta, then we could launch a new server right after beta. But if populations are low leaving beta, I'm not going to open a new server -- that would split people up too much.

I'm also not going to force people to play on an overcrowded server if I can help it, even during beta. We have another year or so of beta remaining. If we suddenly get really overcrowded next month, I'm not waiting until the game launches to open a new server!

So I don't want to put ideas in peoples' heads that there's a certain timing that I can predict. We'll open more servers if and when the in-game population merits it.

Thanks for the input everyone!

[Yaffy]

Thanks for the reply Citan, it's always interesting to hear what your view point on these topics is.

For determining what skills/mods/etc are too strong/weak, whats your methodology to do so? I'm interested in knowing how you figure out if something is too strong/weak.

Popularity is one aspect for sure, but I believe that popularity is mostly an indicator of how easy it is for a player to get a skill combination to a level that they feel like is good, rather than how good the skill is when maxed out. Most people usually settle on a skill set they want to stick with to end game around level 40 or earlier, so most people at end game will play skills that feel good around that level range with some mediocre gear they managed to scrounge up, rather than a skill combination that's good with a full set of max enchanted yellows at level 80 or something along those lines. I know that you have a particular interest in players around that level though so perhaps that's a fine way of looking at it.

That's also partly related to the point you made about skill combinations that aren't very common, but are really strong at end game that are used by a few players. Those builds are unpopular because they probably suck or don't make any sense around mid-level, and only really shine once you have a super good set of gear and the resources to really pump as much into it as possible.

One examples of a skill that's really strong but unpopular as far as I'm aware is Giant bat, which is really hard for newbies to get (Without asking another rare bat player for help at least) and requires books that are only available for a short period of time each year, but then it has some potentially really overtuned abilities like confusing double which are total trash normally but scale ridiculously well with good gear. It seems giant bat is unpopular because it's so hard for a newbie or mid-level player to actually get and then use the skill properly, but it's absurdly good for soloing once you have everything you need to deck it out. I almost never see bat players that aren't around max level, but those that are max level are always doing silly things like soloing bosses.

Another good example is knife which is really easy to acquire, but it's pretty mediocre for newbies because it lacks a lot of utility that make leveling up easier like movement, ranged abilities/AoE (Unless you want to spend lots of money on knives), and good survivability options. I see a lot of newbies picking it up because it's an easily available skill that sounds neat, but I notice a lot of dissatisfaction from beginners with the skill and it seems a lot of those players either quit the game or switch from knife to something else. That said, once you dump tons of money into the skill via throwing knives, venom, whittling, etc it theoretically has really great DPS. It's just that the early game utility is so lackluster and at end game it seems like even high level players don't want to invest in it considering how much it costs to keep it fully powered.

I think one bit of data that could help a lot with balancing skills would be noting how popular skills are at different level ranges, because I think a better indicator that a skill is overpowered would be if a skill is more popular with max level players versus early game players. To me that tells me there are players who are going out of their way to switch off of playing their initial build they went through the game with so they could specifically play a new build because they thought it would be better (And probably stuck with it because it was). Conversely, if a skill is more popular with beginners than end game players, that might indicate that the skill is easy to get at first, but there are problems that make people not want to continue playing it in the long term. Even if the population isn't very big, I feel like there might be some noticeable outliers that could give you insight not just on how to balance skills, but also how to make sure skills stay fun and appealing from the start of the game to the end.

[Tinlaar]

I made a post about this recently and why this isn't a good idea, because it does work this way for certain damage mitigation sources and it lets Staff/Shield become essentially invincible too easily.

This would be a pretty big buff to flat damage mitigation that's not really needed. Tanks, or rather specifically staff/shield is already op. It would need to be accompanied by a complete recalculation of all the flat damage mitigation numbers to keep the balance the same. I do like the idea in theory though for simplifying things.

Personally, I think that the FDR numbers would need to be tweaked. While my suggested formula isn't really perfect, it is a simpler version of the equation that's easier for players to understand. Shield and staff would need rebalancing anyway, as per Yaffy's forum post about the damage reduction calculations.


Hello Friends,
Can we also add more respawn points? Why if I die in the North, I must start at the South again. This makes no sense. It is already a pain to just get past the mobs. Please add more respawn points to cut down traveling.

Exactly, I'd say even Sun Vale requires more respawn points.



The first goal is to have enough data to detect the majority of currently-active skill combinations. Right now for some skill combinations, there's only one or two players using it at high level. But they are absolutely dominating the game with those combinations, which tells me that... there's not enough players, basically. Otherwise more people would have picked up on it.


Popularity is one aspect for sure, but I believe that popularity is mostly an indicator of how easy it is for a player to get a skill combination to a level that they feel like is good, rather than how good the skill is when maxed out. Most people usually settle on a skill set they want to stick with to end game around level 40 or earlier, so most people at end game will play skills that feel good around that level range with some mediocre gear they managed to scrounge up, rather than a skill combination that's good with a full set of max enchanted yellows at level 80 or something along those lines. I know that you have a particular interest in players around that level though so perhaps that's a fine way of looking at it.

That's also partly related to the point you made about skill combinations that aren't very common, but are really strong at end game that are used by a few players. Those builds are unpopular because they probably suck or don't make any sense around mid-level, and only really shine once you have a super good set of gear and the resources to really pump as much into it as possible.

One examples of a skill that's really strong but unpopular as far as I'm aware is Giant bat, which is really hard for newbies to get (Without asking another rare bat player for help at least) and requires books that are only available for a short period of time each year, but then it has some potentially really overtuned abilities like confusing double which are total trash normally but scale ridiculously well with good gear. It seems giant bat is unpopular because it's so hard for a newbie or mid-level player to actually get and then use the skill properly, but it's absurdly good for soloing once you have everything you need to deck it out. I almost never see bat players that aren't around max level, but those that are max level are always doing silly things like soloing bosses.

Another good example is knife which is really easy to acquire, but it's pretty mediocre for newbies because it lacks a lot of utility that make leveling up easier like movement, ranged abilities/AoE (Unless you want to spend lots of money on knives), and good survivability options. I see a lot of newbies picking it up because it's an easily available skill that sounds neat, but I notice a lot of dissatisfaction from beginners with the skill and it seems a lot of those players either quit the game or switch from knife to something else. That said, once you dump tons of money into the skill via throwing knives, venom, whittling, etc it theoretically has really great DPS. It's just that the early game utility is so lackluster and at end game it seems like even high level players don't want to invest in it considering how much it costs to keep it fully powered.

I think one bit of data that could help a lot with balancing skills would be noting how popular skills are at different level ranges, because I think a better indicator that a skill is overpowered would be if a skill is more popular with max level players versus early game players. To me that tells me there are players who are going out of their way to switch off of playing their initial build they went through the game with so they could specifically play a new builds because they thought it was better. Conversely, if a skill is more popular with beginners than end game players, that might indicate that the skill is easy to get at first, but there are problems that make people not want to continue playing it in the long term. Even if the population isn't very big, I feel like there might be some noticeable outliers that could give you insight not just on how to balance skills, but also how to make sure skills stay fun and appealing from the start of the game to the end.
I agree with Yaffy on this, although another important aspect of this is that each and every skill requires so much investment for them to be viable, especially at level 50+. Personally, I'd suggest a complete overhaul of the gear system.
-Gear should be similar to that in games like Warframe, where the weapons have slots for mods to fit into. This is already kind of a thing in PG, but it takes new players far too long to figure it out, and they usually stick to the "bigger number on gear is better" paradigm like in other MMOs.
-Get rid of augmentation entirely, and allow the free extraction and installation of mods/treasure effects (maximum 6 slots for yellow gear, 7 slots for max-enchanted yellow gear). This has several very important implications for the game:
1. The complicated and expensive resource sink of training augmentation is now gone
2. It makes specific gear more desirable again, like those dropped from bosses, or those that give special skills, like the Gazluk armor sets.
3. It makes trying out new skills more convenient. For example, you want to change from KF/ment to KF/psy. Instead of grinding for another completely new armor set entirely, just extract all the ment mods and replace them with psy mods. No more messing around with RNG trying to roll the exact mod, just go out and kill some mobs that would drop gear already with that mod inside, or drop the mod you want.
4. It would be much easier to try out the effects of different mods, and make it easier for players to experiment and learn how damage calculation works on their own.
-Transmutation should be performed on individual mods instead of the gear itself. The 7-day limitation for equipment repairs is just unreasonable. If a player wants to grind harder to reroll their gear until they get the mods they want, let them.

[Mikhaila]

I actually don't think making it easier will see that much more experimentation from players, or trying to figure out damage calculations. If you can strip all the mods out of gear and just design your gear, people would do that, but not necessarily the testing. The bulk of people would simply find it much easier to get a blueprint for gear from someone else and just make that gear. You'd see a huge increase in players selling mods, or even sets of mods. Easier, certainly. I don't think easier is always better.

[Dumdidum]

First of all the best wishes and hopefully a speedy recovery !

Thanks for the update.
Overall the game is great as is, i hope you do not change too much. I have a few wishes tho, but i realize these come from my personal and preferred playstyle and it might not be for the majority. I think, ultimately, diversity in what you can do in the game will keep people interested longer, and attract different kinds of players.

1) i would love it if the game allows for different playstyles to achieve goals. Not all centered around fighting mobs for xp and drops, but allow for different paths. Gain combat xp while crafting or gathering, allow traders to more easily make a living as a crafter or trader to gain councils instead of forcing them to fight (lately more and more sought after items are not tradeable anymore or cant be listed on player stalls for various reasons, but nevertheless they limit what traders can do). Allow more options with player stalls, like a swap option (for example being able to trade 100 hides for a gem stone or w/e).

2) the current trend is that every player can do everything in the game. While it is great that everyone is their own hero, ultimately it destroys trading and the player economy in general. I can make everything there is to make and will hardly ever interact with other players for any of these recipies. Restricting players is not popular, i know, but perhaps you can make it so that each player will own a handful of very rare recipies to promote trade and human interaction. This example is not very thought out but maybe something among the lines of ultra rare recipy drops, limited to a few per player, that are truely unique, and once you reach your limit you can never find any others anymore on that character. Or another implementation of this idea, anything to make traders and crafters be more sought after.

3) I hardly do dungeons. partly because of the timezone i play in, partly because dailies feel like real life work to me. I would welcome more solo-dungeons tho.

4) I really really dislike the time-gating in this game. Having crafted x amount of work orders (i basically did all the work already), bags full of stuff so doing something else is hardly an option, and then having to wait in the fae realm for 30 mins so i can finally deliver my stuff, i hate it. Same goes for other time-gated or other content that is fun for once but pretty annoying after that. Examples are the water gear trader that you have to visit a gazillion times before finally being able to trade for the items you collected, the ticks in povus or any other disease for that matter, etc. You get the point.

5) I would welcome a way so that i can buy items from a special NPC with counsils instead of having to farm them. I do not care if they will be expensive as hell, just the option would be great. It would be a great future money sink and yet again, i have a different way to optain items that are usually only obtainable with some sort of fighting involved.

6) Surveying....brrrrrrrrrrr...no fun, tedious beyond belief. Some players have made usefull add-ons to make life easier. Is it an option to just integrate them into the game and maybe rethink the whole mechanics? since gems are crucial to progress in this game. Also an alternative to acquiring gems other than surveying in sufficient quantities would be greatly appreciated.

7) Animal handling/husbandry. Its not a secret that i am not a great fan of how both skills are currently implemented. Despite that i use AH daily, can you imagine. There are so many games that did a way way better job (in my opinion), like Ultima Online and Rappelz. Better to copy great examples than to reinvent the wheel, poorly.

8) Povus and other content like druid invasions, certain event bosses could benefit from a dynamic system that calculates how tough the encounter needs to be in relation to the number of players (and player levels) online at that time.

[Tentacles]

1. sending loves n get-wells to sandra months late because I am slow!
2. yay good job nick!
3. im hyped to provide lots of balance feedback as its something im super experienced in!!!! (with a slight bias towards pvp balancing, but it's like 60/40 and ngl, it's all useful knowledge <3)