Discussion - Crafting Caravan: September 25, 2020

[mrwarp]

Event notes are here: https://forum.projectgorgon.com/showthread.php?2670-Event-Notes-Crafting-Caravan-September-25-2020

Event discussion and feedback go here!

[Yaffy]

I appreciate the ability to try and implement a way to raise the level of a lower level item, but isn't it really extreme to outright consider it a scam and therefore a punishable offense to try and trade it?
Someone with no ill-intention is inevitably going to try and trade one of the items if a system like this is kept long enough. They could forget that it's breaking a rule to trade the item, or not know it's a problem in the first place. Someone could forget that the item they're trading is one of these forbidden items in the far future, etc.

Something that can easily happen by accident with no ill-will should not be considered a punishable offense, and instead needs to be addressed by the developers so it can't happen by accident if it's a problem. Unless if the items are being kept tradable just so people can do "Illegal" trades for the sake of testing, the items should be attuned to the person who made it and there definitely shouldn't be a punishment for trying to trade the item. Bans for trading a tradable item sounds not only unfair, but will almost certainly harm a lot of innocent people.

[mrwarp]

One thing I left out of the event notes:
When you barter for the Amulet or Shoes, you are guaranteed an Epic (purple) rarity item with a very very small chance for a Legendary (yellow) item.

[Citan]

Changed the wording to prevent people worrying about being banned over it. Obviously it's a less-than-ideal situation where the tech doesn't match up with our needs yet. But that happens sometimes during development. So we're asking people who barter for higher-tier versions of old items to not sell or trade them. Please gift them to an NPC or destroy them for materials if you don't want them.

[Ranperre]

Not to be that guy but... is refunding a properly skilled purple with the hopes of getting a yellow considered abusing the system?

[corelion]

Really MAD atm with the upgrade item system.

First, the NPC ask you for the item, then the item gets DESTROYED without any warning. Then the NPC ask for more items!!!!! You don't have the tokens? Tough luck boy!
I felt scam by this. I lost a golden windstep boots that were perfect for my build and now I'm left with nothing.
The npc NEVER warn you you will need more tokens or it will destroy your items.
PLUS! by the comments about i understand the rarity doesnt get saved.. so i lost a yellow item.

THIS IS NOT AN UPGRADE SYSTEM. Is a gamble one. If i don't get a better item, IS NOT an upgrade. If i get not ITEM its NOT an upgrade.

Lost all my desire to participate longer in this event.

[Ranperre]

So uh... maybe just get black ink.

First:

https://i.imgur.com/hKGwdMo.png

Second (refund):

https://i.imgur.com/i9NB4pY.png

[Tandiril]

Wanted to also put my 2 cents here. Some of it you can also find in an ingame suggestion

Overall I like the idea. There are some items out there where it is really shame that you cannot get a higher level version of them.
I also know that this is an experiment, so not too much nagging over wording and so on, rather the major yays and nays.

1) Quality
Let's start with the biggest pain point


One thing I left out of the event notes:
When you barter for the Amulet or Shoes, you are guaranteed an Epic (purple) rarity item with a very very small chance for a Legendary (yellow) item.

Honestly this really should have been in the notes. I handed in my golden wind step shoes and got purples for them. As others have pointed out, you really cannot consider it an upgrade if you lose a mod in the process. This REALLY needs to change, and the quality needs to stay the same. After all, the unique effects of these items are usually somewhere around the worth of one mod, which puts them on par with max enchanted crafted gear but with some uniqueness due to the item you chose. Example comes later on

The bartering system is probably not the best solution to handle such a type of transaction. One way to use it could be to return a red/purple/golden token to the player depending on the sacrificed item, and then to implement a distinct barter for each quality (= x3 the barter options). Not elegant, but managable. Or you cut red quality from the list (honestly min 30 tokens for red boots, who would do that?), or red also gives you purple quality,. etc. Something along those lines.

Or you simply don't call it upgrade, and declare that it is simply another rng mechanic. Like "bring me an item according to my craft. For some tokens I will create something similar, but more advanced! Beware though, even for a master like myself, creating something with same or exceeding quality cannot be guaranteed". Not a big fan of this approach, but if you do it like that, you should probably reconsider the token requirement. 40 tokens for a roll, no thx :)

2) Base stats
Another issue arises when you consider some base enhancements, especially for Windstep shoes this seems important.
I understand that the special effects like sprint speed, inventory size, damage type conversion, and stuff like this stays the same. After all, that is probably why you picked the item in the first place (however sprint speed and inventory size are debatable, in fact everything that doesn't have a discret effect is). However, armor and combat refresh values might need updating, after all they are usually related to the level range, which we increase here.

3)
Now let's take a look at these 2 points in an example, to make the issues clearer. If I go for upgraded windstep shoes, I will very likely end up with a puple item =
4 mods, with 25 max armor, 30 health combat refresh, 27 armor combat refresh, clothing.

To get this far, I needed windstep shoes of sufficient quality (= a trip to winter nexus), and 40 tokens for level 80. With augmentation, I can increase the number of mods to 5, and the windstep effect gives me +2 sprint speed. So to sum up ->

windstep: 5 mods, 25 armor, +2 sprint speed, 30 health combat refresh, 27 armor combat refresh

To get 40 tokens, I needed a lot of quests, so either many caravans with a few skills, or a caravan where I do quests of many skills. I can do this only every 4 months for one weekend

Alternatively, I could simply rely on tailoring and other stuff I need for max enchanting. A sensible thing to do would either to craft astounding nimble shoes or regular astounding slippers, max enchanted. After enough investement (comparable to 40 tokens I guess, but fewer skills involved) I get golden ones, which means 6 mods. Now I use my enhancement points to apply a shamanic deer infusion, resulting in

regular: 6 mods, +1.5 sprint speed, 72 armor, -7% taunt, 48 health combat refresh, 42 armor combat refresh
nimble: 6 mods, +1.5 sprint speed, 37 armor, burst evasion every 12s, 48 health combat refresh, 42 armor combat refresh

I can do this whenever I want, they have one mod more, and better base stats. The only advantage I have rn is +0.5 sprint speed, hardly justifyable from a number perspective. So there are only a few "reasons" why I would like to go through this.

a) I am not proficient enough in tailoring/other skill I need or lack materials for that specific craft. Nor do I have the councils and/or trusted crafters to pay somebody to do it for me. Over the course of 4 months however, I would say that problem is usually solvable, with councils if with nothing else.
b) I have an emotional bond with my shoes.
c) My shoes look really cool compared to the ugly crafted ones.
d) I actually want to stack the speed enhancement on top of the existing speed base stat.

Most of the time however, I will be better of with shoes I crafted myself. And considering that the event where I can upgrade my *dropped* shoes is the *crafting* caravan, this is maybe not ideal. If it were the "Dungeon Delvers Competition" weekend with no crafting involved, this discrepancy between upgraded and self made shoes would be at least understandable


Now I realise this is a lot of negative feedback, but what I want to state again: The general idea is cool, and just because there were some misshaps this time, don't stomp the idea. Improving things like the gaz fire sword or similar items in the future would be amazing and offer cool build options. And even having super sonic winddeer shoes has potential. So please reiterate on the idea, and bring us the Caravan Upgrade Service 2.0 or something similar at some point :)

Edit:
I realize that this is a very number-crunchy approach. For somebody who is in the middle leveling crafting skills via the caravan in the 40-60 range and simply ups their well beloved shoes as "bonus" (because at this point the xp is the actually valuable thing) it could be a nice and fun reward, and the mentioned points are probably less relevant. Quality loss would still be a downer though xD

[Deldaron]

I have been over the moon since I realized I could get lvl 80 windstep boots, got them last night and I'm very pleased! I do think this is correctly labeled an upgrade even if you lose a mod, you still get to carry lvl 80 mods on what used to be a lvl 50 item and it's absolutely fantastic.

I do like the idea of forcing an item in = item out - maybe it keeps the same skills/rarity/mods, but swap the mods 1:1 for the lvl x variety. I surely benefitted from the RNG as all I had in storage was from an old with skills set I don't use, but I can see it being disheartening if the RNG gives you a half generic. I also still have to re-roll one of the mods, but I'm elated to have them.

I had actually been thinking recently I would like to see some sort of item upgrade system exactly like this. There are some _really_ cool items in game that are only for a specific level range and I would love a method to bring them forward with you. Off the top of my head I can think of The Ratkin Pickaxe for interesting damage type changes, gaz sets, fire sword as Tandiril mentioned, thorns set (forget the name, scorpion?), and some things I just want for my build (the ring that increases electricity dmg). I would love to see this system expanded upon and I think making the items attuned seems reasonable. I also think this "upgrade and re-skill" could create a boon to the player gear market. Now I can comfortably buy amulet of the rugged travelers and windstep shoes regardless of what skills they have.

This I think raises an interesting question, should there be a re-skilling option generally? This introduces the idea for the first time, with some RNG, limited to two travel/utility items. I would LOVE to see this option expanded, maybe once per item with attunement? Even if it didn't come with the upgrade to a higher level tier I think having the ability to change an items skills would help players sell items - got a yellow zuke ring you don't need, but it's bound to your skills? Allowing someone to re-skill it would open up the players who you could sell it to. The downside I see here is suddenly everyone has a zuke ring and less people care to do gaz?

Also Tandiril I want to respond to your point directly. I think you are underselling the value of "d) I actually want to stack the speed enhancement on top of the existing speed base stat." - if we're talking about "how can I use this upgrade system to get the best possible item for end game" you're right, you can't. The Astounding Nimble Boots are the best boots right now (unless they added some in Wintertide) and you can get those year round instead of just once a quarter, but I am someone who keeps a travel and a combat set on me. For players who like to optimize speed and leverage speed mods this is a HUGE boost. Historically using windstep shoes didn't seem worth it b/c I would have to downgrade my speed boost mods from my skills (fire/shield for me) and the only way I could use both lvl 80 mods and windsteps +2 speed would be to carry two travel boots, eat up a loadout and quick swap before/after casting my speed spells. As someone who didn't bother with that, this means I get +2 sprint speed to my travel form that I previously didn't have. It is definitely an expensive method of increasing speed, but since you can carry tokens over between events it is also incredibly do-able for anyone who wants it. I do like your suggestions about base stats increasing with level at least for combat refresh and the solution using tokens of different rarity so I will second those.

EDIT:
I wanted to bring in this post from last month as it is clearly related to the Crafting Caravan and I think ProfessorCat put together an INCREDIBLY comprehensive list that shows how far this upgrade system could go https://forum.projectgorgon.com/showthread.php?2631-Need-input-on-special-gear-drops&p=18926&viewfull=1#post18926

[Tandiril]

Deldaron, maybe I am underselling it. Tbh, after writing all this, I was wondering what I would do with my windstep shoes now, and decided I would probably make use of d) and use it purely for travel. Same situation here with Fire Magic. But the point was (maybe that was the reason for the underselling): This is an incredibly specialized use, and if the system were only for people who a) actually care about such tiny optimizations and b) can actually afford it (40 tokens is no joke of a commitement to this game), is it really a good system? But that discussion would probably a very subjective one :)

[Ranperre]

It took me four rolls to finally get my windsteps (including the refund).

Guys, I really appreciate this option for the crafting caravan. I think it has a lot of promise. That said, I shouldn't have to spend 120 damn coins (600k+ councils, I bought like 50 and made the rest) to get them. This level of randomness can't be acceptable going forward or the cost of each roll needs to go wayyyyyyyy down.

[Dumdidum]

I like the idea of getting tokens to trade for unique rewards you cannot get otherwise.
That being said, i am currently not exactly thrilled with the rewards.
A bunch of dyes and crafting mats that can be bought way cheaper with councils (on the market a crafting token goes for 5-7k, easily). Black dye, the most illusive one, is now so common in events and raffles that you can buy them in bulk for 90k or less.
A bunch of consumeables that are very pricey for what they offer, and go poof once used.
A nice title, tbh the only reward that would make me consider doing quests in all my maxed crafting skills just to get the favor.
What WOULD make me want to invest time in this event even after all crafting skills were to be maxed are things like extra character slots, a month of VIP, cosmetics that permanently change how my character or gear looks, a unique recipy for each separate event (miss the event? tough luck you will never get that recipy) etc.
These rewards can be extremely expensive and nearly impossible to get, but at least would give a high incentive to keep participating.

For those that are just levelling crafting skills and consider tokens a sideshow (and i still have a handful i am working on myself) the event is great.

[Celerity]

I like the idea of upgrading lower level items but I think the cost is just too expensive for the marginal benefit. Every item will only have a niche use in a couple builds. Even for these general use run speed items, they only have value if:

1. You want a slight power increase in your combat abilities in a movement speed set or aoe farming set
2. You use fire magic and/or shield in a movement speed set, so you can get +2 more sprint speed on your boots

Personally, I don't use fire magic and I don't use shield for movement since the last patch which made the buffs no longer carry over. I don't think the difference in power between lvl 60 mods on your boots or lvl 80 mods on your boots for 1 slot in an aoe farming set is significant enough for the cost either.

I would be incredibly surprised if more than 2 or 3 people in the entire game even bothered to upgrade the amulet of the rugged traveler as that is even less significant, also being an upgrade from lvl 60 to lvl 80, but only offering +1 sprint speed, with, as far as I can tell, the only benefit being for aoe farming builds. Or alternatively getting +1 sprint speed on your aoe farming necklace if you valued lvl 80 mods over the sprint speed. Maybe I'm missing something here with an animal run speed mod that needs it but either way it's less significant than the windsteps still.

Also as a suggestion, maybe you could make the player hand over 2 gems to determine the skills in the same way you craft gear, rather than having the refund system.

[Tandiril]

In response to what Celerity wrote: When considering the cost vs the use of Windstep shoes, the reason for different opinions on that matter might also be that those have a rather large level range of mods. For example, I would agree that the cost is not justified if you already had lvl 60 shoes beforehand. However if you had lvl 40 boots like me, cost shifts more to be around reasonable.
Actually that would be quite nice (but complicated and probably not supported by the current system): The final, upgraded level range could be only one factor, the other being how many levels your current piece is below that

[Dibbuk]

This is my personal opinion, only. I have pretty much given up on crafting caravans. Simply put, the rewards are far inferior to the time, effort, and materials spent. Many crafting quests called for extremely rare materials. The windstep shoe reward are an excellent example of inferior reward for rare and expensive items, but in almost every case, whatever rewards are given (and a few of the quests gave no reward at all that I saw), were not even worth the cost of the materials. Add to this the lack of storage, and I feel the crafting caravan is not worth the effort.

[Sasho]

**FYI**

In case you didn't know the crafting caravan isn't the only way to get level 80 windstep shoes. Ever since the implementation of the "Level X Loot Boxes" in Serbule, you can use your Level 80/Universal keys on the Level 80 box and it generates all varieties of loot for that level. It's not guaranteed to be yellow tier or windstep shoes, but I have gotten those and items like the Gazluk +40 health ring from these chests. So keep your eyes out to save and/or buy lots of keys when these events come out (Halloween is big for this if I remember) and you may be able to score some lucky, unique level 80 loot.

No rules against trading this loot either.

**Also a fun FYI as a bonus**

If you are ever pulling loot from any chest that you don't really need (ex: You're level 70 and the chest is level 40 gear), if you switch into a loadout that has no combat skills (Wind instruments/Dance), the chest will produce generic, usually no-wield loot that you can give to new players. I'll do this with the chests in GK because I can get some ridiculously strong no-wield armor that brand new players can benefit from.

Edit: Thanks, Jack for informing me. I'm sad to see that feature go. Part of the fun for me with the level 80 chests was seeing what random loot would pop up. Makes sense that it would be changed though. I guess I'll just stick to going for no-wield goodies when I pop upon the level 80 chests.

[mrwarp]

**FYI**

In case you didn't know the crafting caravan isn't the only way to get level 80 windstep shoes. Ever since the implementation of the "Level X Loot Boxes" in Serbule, you can use your Level 80/Universal keys on the Level 80 box and it generates all varieties of loot for that level. It's not guaranteed to be yellow tier or windstep shoes, but I have gotten those and items like the Gazluk +40 health ring from these chests. So keep your eyes out to save and/or buy lots of keys when these events come out (Halloween is big for this if I remember) and you may be able to score some lucky, unique level 80 loot.

Sorry, but this is not completely accurate. There is absolutely 0 chance of getting windstep shoes or rugged amulets from the Level 60, 70 or 80 event loot chests. In the level 80 chest, there is currently a chance to get some level 70 items as well, but that will likely disappear now that the level 80 gear tiers are more filled out.

[Silkt]

To assist players with varying amounts of playtime, such as only night after the kids are in bed, would it be feasible to switch the quest timer to a quest cap. That is event goes for 72 hours and 12 hours resets on some quests so they could be done 6 times, I suggest remove the timer and cap the amount of times that quest can be done at 6 or even 5 since the most dedicated would struggle to the 6 x 12 hour timer correct. Or if the internal mechanics don't allow that extend the event time but still cap the amount of times each individual quest can be done.

On the item upgrade, I would rather see you hand over an item and certain numbers of tokens and the item and attached mods are raised 1 tier. Although this would require the mod system to have all mods step through every tier.

[Daguin]

-Redacted-

[Glythe]

I missed the last crafting caravan but after reading the thread it sounds like there was a problem with the implementation of what sounded like a neat new feature.

Observation: Everyone loves Windstep boots.
Suggestion: Make those boots more accessible?

Since this is a *crafting caravan* why not give the option to have the tailoring npc teach you the recipe to make windstep boots? To make it more exciting (since you seem to want to make the item be very limited) why not have this specific item become account bound on creation? That way people who desire to make boots can learn it and people who want to gamble on boots can do that too?

I would suggest that learning the recipe would require maybe 5 tokens per tier (60/70/80/whatever) since the creation of the boots will be expensive and not get any immediate benefit. Making the boots would obviously require very high trade skills. Maybe you need 80 in the required skills to make them. Maybe you need tailoring and leatherworking at 80? Who knows!